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How Do You See the World?

YYW
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5/1/2013 4:47:29 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
We see the world through the lens of inculturation, which is to say that we make intelligible our surroundings on the basis of our already known environments. Experience, then, is the mechanism by which we come to form our understanding of reality and how the world -and all it's components- work.

Experience is at once the only means by which we come to understand the world and its parts and the defining metric of our ability to conceptualize, to make intelligible, to understand the world around us. In one sense this is profound in that our ability to recall, the extent to which our memory enables us remember the past is the means to incorporate new thoughts and experiences and evaluate them against what we already know. And yet, memories like the sum of our experience is fallible, imprecise, subject to omission and potentially erroneous.

But if the above is the case, then if we want to increase our understanding of the world, we must continually broaden the horizons of our experience but if we do not, we need only board up our lives and relegate ourselves to what is already known to us, what is familiar and what is therefore already understood.

However, that experience is the source of world understanding equally reveals insights into how particular individuals evaluate the range of possibilities. If our understanding of the present is predicated upon our recall of the past, the individual conceptions of future is subsidiary to our individual historical memory. Creativity, however, the conception of the genuinely novel, seems to be the antidote to stagnation on both an individual and global social level.

When trying to understand how someone like my parents, my grandparents or my professors see the world, by their experiences I know them and in a similar vein by the accounts of their lives their ideals, their values, their conceptions of the good and right are explained.

I had coffee with an old, once close friend who I hadn't seen for four years. He told me that he couldn't believe how left-leaning I'd become, how I had changed, how my entire value structure seemed to have broken from the kid he once knew. My only response was that "I grew up." He replied, "no, you grew apart." He was right. I had grown apart.

I asked him if when he was growing up (he's in his 50s, btw) if he did the same with his parents. His parents were extremely conservative, as was he. He leaned a bit to the left in college (he went to Notre Dame), but eventually returned faithfully to what became of the GOP. He never broke free, but he grew up in the suburbs of New York. He went to private school. He got a promising white collar job right out of grad school. He was in his 30s before he left the United States.

I likewise asked him if he ever thought about leaving the United States to tour Europe, to study abroad, to learn another language. He replied that there wasn't time. He had to take his place in the workforce (I won't go into any more details than that). I asked him if he wished he had done anything differently. He was content, but I guess he'd earned the right to be.

I grew up in the suburbs too. Large houses, gated communities, lots of boring white people with their boring kids, their boring lives. I grew up isolated as much as if not more than he did, in an equally conservative environment. I left the first chance I got and never looked back (I think in reflection that my dissatisfaction with my environment was the reason I did so many drugs in high school).

I've been all over Europe too, btw. I don't presently live there now, but it's the only place that's ever felt like home to me, even though I love the United States (especially Switzerland and Germany, which is why I keep my location in Geneva).

So, what about you? Do you think that your experiences have governed the way you see the world? How do you feel about new experiences? Do you identify with where your live or do you see yourself as being better situated to live elsewhere? Are you happy where you are/with where you are going?
Tsar of DDO
Logic_on_rails
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5/1/2013 6:25:59 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
The rest of your post was plenty poignant, yet with such a broad topic and for space reasons... let's attempt to sketch my (somewhat ever-changing and thought dependent) answers to the following:

At 5/1/2013 4:47:29 AM, YYW wrote:

So, what about you? Do you think that your experiences have governed the way you see the world? How do you feel about new experiences? Do you identify with where your live or do you see yourself as being better situated to live elsewhere? Are you happy where you are/with where you are going?

With each day that passes I come to view experience as a more powerful thing; I now seek out tales of others past experiences, as opposed to asking other sorts of things. I think that I'm strongly influenced by my experiences; how could I not be? That said, I think there's a degree to which my view is independent of my experience. That's a bold claim to make I know, but there seems to be enduring aspects of my personality and skills, which in turn affect my perception of the world. These aspects endure despite experience. Some wither away and become wilted, some blossom and expand. And yet... there is something which endures underneath it all. Call me vapid and presumptuous, tell me I'm relying on my experience in this judgement (!) , but there are aspects and moods which endure over time.

As for new experiences? I wished I seized the day more than I do. New experiences enrich us. That is not to say that one can't be content with what one is, but to be the paragon of all that one admires and aspires to be... few have reached that point; experience propels us towards our goal. There can be negative experiences that one does not like to remember, but for the most part we learn; experiences do not normally scar. As to enrichment, a few days of travel significantly changed my views and reinforced others. I could talk about experiences for awhile. Suffice to say, one should seek out experiences that enrich oneself.

Do I identify with where I live? The terrain is almost idyllic, but that's probably not your desired answer. I think that living somewhere in Europe might indulge some of my taste for formality and decor among other things... I'm purely guessing though. Improvements could be made, but these are such broad ranging questions YYW...

... which brings me to the final question with how happy I am / where I want to be. How my mood can affect my perception to this question! I'm making some progress towards where I want to be. However, I'm not where I want to be. In many ways I can't be where I wish to be, at least not now. I think this question deserves a response outside the scope of this thread. The question can at times be so simple; at others it is multifaceted.
"Tis not in mortals to command success
But we"ll do more, Sempronius, we"ll deserve it
wrichcirw
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5/1/2013 9:35:58 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/1/2013 4:47:29 AM, YYW wrote:

So, what about you? Do you think that your experiences have governed the way you see the world? How do you feel about new experiences? Do you identify with where your live or do you see yourself as being better situated to live elsewhere? Are you happy where you are/with where you are going?

The bolded question is disingenuous. What else other than experience would govern the way you see the world? Even reading a book about somewhere you've never been is an "experience".
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
wrichcirw
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5/1/2013 9:38:32 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
With each day that passes I come to view experience as a more powerful thing; I now seek out tales of others past experiences, as opposed to asking other sorts of things. I think that I'm strongly influenced by my experiences; how could I not be? That said, I think there's a degree to which my view is independent of my experience. That's a bold claim to make I know, but there seems to be enduring aspects of my personality and skills, which in turn affect my perception of the world. These aspects endure despite experience.

I would say this is totally false. Your personality was shaped by the interactions with the people and objects around you - how could they not? Even more so for your skills and viewpoints. All of this is "experience".
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
Logic_on_rails
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5/1/2013 4:17:05 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/1/2013 9:38:32 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
With each day that passes I come to view experience as a more powerful thing; I now seek out tales of others past experiences, as opposed to asking other sorts of things. I think that I'm strongly influenced by my experiences; how could I not be? That said, I think there's a degree to which my view is independent of my experience. That's a bold claim to make I know, but there seems to be enduring aspects of my personality and skills, which in turn affect my perception of the world. These aspects endure despite experience.

I would say this is totally false. Your personality was shaped by the interactions with the people and objects around you - how could they not? Even more so for your skills and viewpoints. All of this is "experience".

What if your personality is shaped in part by genetics? There's a lot of literature on the extent to which IQ is heritable vs. environmentally determined. I'm not saying that experience isn't of significant, maybe even paramount importance yet to claim that nothing else has an impact? You rule out all genetic influences for instance. I'll expand once I return from school.
"Tis not in mortals to command success
But we"ll do more, Sempronius, we"ll deserve it
Skepsikyma
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5/1/2013 7:03:56 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I grew up under odd conditions, to say the least. The area in which I grew up is a sliver of rural piedmont hills. A wild, pastoral band between the rust belt city of Bethlehem and the immaculately manicured Welsh Belt and Main Line of Philadelphia. My mother's family consists of one branch of Russian and German immigrants from Bethlehem, and another branch of freewheeling, artistic motorcycle enthusiasts/painters from the nicer Philadelphia suburbs. My father's side is a sort of thoroughly entrenched, crumbling redneck aristocracy, bitterly fighting one another over the dregs of a local quarrying empire, which has been reduced to a couple slices of real-estate. Most have since been sold off in order to support the heirs, and by the time father's generation came along, there was nothing left to inherit.

I went to a decent public school, was raised without religion, as my maternal grandmother's side of the family is thoroughly atheist going back at least four generations. My mother was a stay-at-home mother, my father worked himself to the bone to support us, and there were always chores. I was in charge of the gardens and helping to cook. I went to a local college, and worked at a local businesses. I've taken family trips up and down the eastern seaboard, travel into Philadelphia regularly. My best friend and I have gone to Europe (France and Spain) and Alberta together. But overall, aside from the few grand adventures I've had the privilege of experiencing, I have been most vividly influenced by art and nature, to the point where most real people become pale, unimpressive ghosts in comparison.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
YYW
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5/2/2013 1:35:26 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/1/2013 7:03:56 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
I grew up under odd conditions, to say the least. The area in which I grew up is a sliver of rural piedmont hills. A wild, pastoral band between the rust belt city of Bethlehem and the immaculately manicured Welsh Belt and Main Line of Philadelphia. My mother's family consists of one branch of Russian and German immigrants from Bethlehem, and another branch of freewheeling, artistic motorcycle enthusiasts/painters from the nicer Philadelphia suburbs. My father's side is a sort of thoroughly entrenched, crumbling redneck aristocracy, bitterly fighting one another over the dregs of a local quarrying empire, which has been reduced to a couple slices of real-estate. Most have since been sold off in order to support the heirs, and by the time father's generation came along, there was nothing left to inherit.

I went to a decent public school, was raised without religion, as my maternal grandmother's side of the family is thoroughly atheist going back at least four generations. My mother was a stay-at-home mother, my father worked himself to the bone to support us, and there were always chores. I was in charge of the gardens and helping to cook. I went to a local college, and worked at a local businesses. I've taken family trips up and down the eastern seaboard, travel into Philadelphia regularly. My best friend and I have gone to Europe (France and Spain) and Alberta together. But overall, aside from the few grand adventures I've had the privilege of experiencing, I have been most vividly influenced by art and nature, to the point where most real people become pale, unimpressive ghosts in comparison.

That's very interesting, actually. I love Philadelphia, btw. Fantastic food, great people, brilliant culture.
Tsar of DDO
pozessed
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5/2/2013 1:41:16 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
The world without humanity would be beautiful. Humanity could make the world more beautiful but people seem to be more interested in making it garbage for their own selfish reasons.
I have no reason to look down on people because I am to blame as much as anyone else.
suttichart.denpruektham
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5/2/2013 1:47:18 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/1/2013 7:03:56 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
I grew up under odd conditions, to say the least. The area in which I grew up is a sliver of rural piedmont hills. A wild, pastoral band between the rust belt city of Bethlehem and the immaculately manicured Welsh Belt and Main Line of Philadelphia. My mother's family consists of one branch of Russian and German immigrants from Bethlehem, and another branch of freewheeling, artistic motorcycle enthusiasts/painters from the nicer Philadelphia suburbs. My father's side is a sort of thoroughly entrenched, crumbling redneck aristocracy, bitterly fighting one another over the dregs of a local quarrying empire, which has been reduced to a couple slices of real-estate. Most have since been sold off in order to support the heirs, and by the time father's generation came along, there was nothing left to inherit.

I went to a decent public school, was raised without religion, as my maternal grandmother's side of the family is thoroughly atheist going back at least four generations. My mother was a stay-at-home mother, my father worked himself to the bone to support us, and there were always chores. I was in charge of the gardens and helping to cook. I went to a local college, and worked at a local businesses. I've taken family trips up and down the eastern seaboard, travel into Philadelphia regularly. My best friend and I have gone to Europe (France and Spain) and Alberta together. But overall, aside from the few grand adventures I've had the privilege of experiencing, I have been most vividly influenced by art and nature, to the point where most real people become pale, unimpressive ghosts in comparison.

Sound like you have quite a very good life ;D
wrichcirw
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5/2/2013 2:11:44 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/1/2013 4:17:05 PM, Logic_on_rails wrote:
At 5/1/2013 9:38:32 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
With each day that passes I come to view experience as a more powerful thing; I now seek out tales of others past experiences, as opposed to asking other sorts of things. I think that I'm strongly influenced by my experiences; how could I not be? That said, I think there's a degree to which my view is independent of my experience. That's a bold claim to make I know, but there seems to be enduring aspects of my personality and skills, which in turn affect my perception of the world. These aspects endure despite experience.

I would say this is totally false. Your personality was shaped by the interactions with the people and objects around you - how could they not? Even more so for your skills and viewpoints. All of this is "experience".

What if your personality is shaped in part by genetics? There's a lot of literature on the extent to which IQ is heritable vs. environmentally determined. I'm not saying that experience isn't of significant, maybe even paramount importance yet to claim that nothing else has an impact? You rule out all genetic influences for instance. I'll expand once I return from school.

What if genetics is shaped in part by the environment?
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
suttichart.denpruektham
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5/2/2013 2:24:01 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I feel like I can related to the OP experience somewhat. I was born (and still live) in Bangkok Thailand. When I was young I had been educated in.. ...well now when I looked back I think it was Fascist style, or at the very least very nationalistic and conservative education with an absent of lessi fair economy, yes I think it is Fascist. The school is technically at the outskirt of Bangkok and this kind of education is not uncommon for in this area (Thailand had been military - read Fascist government for a decades). Not every kid in school had followed up with that idea but for some reason my old self did, I had been fanatically followed all those idea of authoritarianism, loyalty and sacrifices which had been greet well by my mother who is a socialist and my father who is a far right conservative (how come they had been in marriages is still a mystery to me) .

As a kid I was essentially a bookworm (and now essentially an internet nerd -_-), for some reason I always feel alien in my own country, I hate the heat, the humidity, spicy food etc. So I spend time reading a book (history for most of the case) as a form of escapes. I believe by reading a lot of important people of the past, I had been move quite a lot toward authoritarian state capitalism. There is even a time when I was truly impressed with Adolf Hitler achievement (minus the genocide). When I growth my school sponsor me for a course in private international university, I join the debate club and participate in many debate competitions which carried me to a lot of places. SE Asia, Europe, etc. And suddenly it seem like the world had been turn upside down. I felt like Javert when he was about to jump of the bridge, "the world that I know, lost in shadow". My trust in the state, the education, and religion is all gone. How can they teach you to hate someone who simply do not live in your country when everyone can be your friend?

Although I have never been able to turn left, and can't really abandon my conservative tendency. I can no longer believe in what I have always believe and its reflect in every aspect of my life. And now, my parent are no longer asagreeable as they once were. "You've changed", they said. "Because of that university and your friends".

Well, I do. That's not necessarily unreasonable though. Kids are growing up, and in doing so they are growing apart, I think that is part of what we called adult.

I can't even imagine what would happen in another 10 years when I might consider having my own kid. Perhaps when that time come, I too will understand what is it like to see they growth up and apart from us.
YYW
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5/2/2013 5:38:08 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/2/2013 2:24:01 PM, suttichart.denpruektham wrote:
I feel like I can related to the OP experience somewhat. I was born (and still live) in Bangkok Thailand. When I was young I had been educated in.. ...well now when I looked back I think it was Fascist style, or at the very least very nationalistic and conservative education with an absent of lessi fair economy, yes I think it is Fascist. The school is technically at the outskirt of Bangkok and this kind of education is not uncommon for in this area (Thailand had been military - read Fascist government for a decades). Not every kid in school had followed up with that idea but for some reason my old self did, I had been fanatically followed all those idea of authoritarianism, loyalty and sacrifices which had been greet well by my mother who is a socialist and my father who is a far right conservative (how come they had been in marriages is still a mystery to me) .

As a kid I was essentially a bookworm (and now essentially an internet nerd -_-), for some reason I always feel alien in my own country, I hate the heat, the humidity, spicy food etc. So I spend time reading a book (history for most of the case) as a form of escapes. I believe by reading a lot of important people of the past, I had been move quite a lot toward authoritarian state capitalism. There is even a time when I was truly impressed with Adolf Hitler achievement (minus the genocide). When I growth my school sponsor me for a course in private international university, I join the debate club and participate in many debate competitions which carried me to a lot of places. SE Asia, Europe, etc. And suddenly it seem like the world had been turn upside down. I felt like Javert when he was about to jump of the bridge, "the world that I know, lost in shadow". My trust in the state, the education, and religion is all gone. How can they teach you to hate someone who simply do not live in your country when everyone can be your friend?

What did you think of Les Miserables?

Although I have never been able to turn left, and can't really abandon my conservative tendency. I can no longer believe in what I have always believe and its reflect in every aspect of my life. And now, my parent are no longer asagreeable as they once were. "You've changed", they said. "Because of that university and your friends".

Well, I do. That's not necessarily unreasonable though. Kids are growing up, and in doing so they are growing apart, I think that is part of what we called adult.

I can't even imagine what would happen in another 10 years when I might consider having my own kid. Perhaps when that time come, I too will understand what is it like to see they growth up and apart from us.

That's fascinating, and your story is remarkable. I can't imagine growing up in that sort of environment though -but I've heard the same charge from my family "you've changed because of that education of yours and the friends you keep."
Tsar of DDO
Skepsikyma
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5/2/2013 8:38:56 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/2/2013 1:47:18 PM, suttichart.denpruektham wrote:
At 5/1/2013 7:03:56 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
I grew up under odd conditions, to say the least. The area in which I grew up is a sliver of rural piedmont hills. A wild, pastoral band between the rust belt city of Bethlehem and the immaculately manicured Welsh Belt and Main Line of Philadelphia. My mother's family consists of one branch of Russian and German immigrants from Bethlehem, and another branch of freewheeling, artistic motorcycle enthusiasts/painters from the nicer Philadelphia suburbs. My father's side is a sort of thoroughly entrenched, crumbling redneck aristocracy, bitterly fighting one another over the dregs of a local quarrying empire, which has been reduced to a couple slices of real-estate. Most have since been sold off in order to support the heirs, and by the time father's generation came along, there was nothing left to inherit.

I went to a decent public school, was raised without religion, as my maternal grandmother's side of the family is thoroughly atheist going back at least four generations. My mother was a stay-at-home mother, my father worked himself to the bone to support us, and there were always chores. I was in charge of the gardens and helping to cook. I went to a local college, and worked at a local businesses. I've taken family trips up and down the eastern seaboard, travel into Philadelphia regularly. My best friend and I have gone to Europe (France and Spain) and Alberta together. But overall, aside from the few grand adventures I've had the privilege of experiencing, I have been most vividly influenced by art and nature, to the point where most real people become pale, unimpressive ghosts in comparison.

Sound like you have quite a very good life ;D

There's been good and bad in it, like any life.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
Skepsikyma
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5/2/2013 8:44:38 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/2/2013 1:35:26 PM, YYW wrote:
At 5/1/2013 7:03:56 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
I grew up under odd conditions, to say the least. The area in which I grew up is a sliver of rural piedmont hills. A wild, pastoral band between the rust belt city of Bethlehem and the immaculately manicured Welsh Belt and Main Line of Philadelphia. My mother's family consists of one branch of Russian and German immigrants from Bethlehem, and another branch of freewheeling, artistic motorcycle enthusiasts/painters from the nicer Philadelphia suburbs. My father's side is a sort of thoroughly entrenched, crumbling redneck aristocracy, bitterly fighting one another over the dregs of a local quarrying empire, which has been reduced to a couple slices of real-estate. Most have since been sold off in order to support the heirs, and by the time father's generation came along, there was nothing left to inherit.

I went to a decent public school, was raised without religion, as my maternal grandmother's side of the family is thoroughly atheist going back at least four generations. My mother was a stay-at-home mother, my father worked himself to the bone to support us, and there were always chores. I was in charge of the gardens and helping to cook. I went to a local college, and worked at a local businesses. I've taken family trips up and down the eastern seaboard, travel into Philadelphia regularly. My best friend and I have gone to Europe (France and Spain) and Alberta together. But overall, aside from the few grand adventures I've had the privilege of experiencing, I have been most vividly influenced by art and nature, to the point where most real people become pale, unimpressive ghosts in comparison.

That's very interesting, actually. I love Philadelphia, btw. Fantastic food, great people, brilliant culture.

Thanks! I love visiting Central City; many people write Philadelphia off without more thoroughly acquainting themselves with her impressive cultural institutions. The little hole in the wall restaurants are great as well. Did you grow up in the northeast?
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
Logic_on_rails
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5/3/2013 6:50:36 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/2/2013 2:11:44 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 5/1/2013 4:17:05 PM, Logic_on_rails wrote:
At 5/1/2013 9:38:32 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
With each day that passes I come to view experience as a more powerful thing; I now seek out tales of others past experiences, as opposed to asking other sorts of things. I think that I'm strongly influenced by my experiences; how could I not be? That said, I think there's a degree to which my view is independent of my experience. That's a bold claim to make I know, but there seems to be enduring aspects of my personality and skills, which in turn affect my perception of the world. These aspects endure despite experience.

I would say this is totally false. Your personality was shaped by the interactions with the people and objects around you - how could they not? Even more so for your skills and viewpoints. All of this is "experience".

What if your personality is shaped in part by genetics? There's a lot of literature on the extent to which IQ is heritable vs. environmentally determined. I'm not saying that experience isn't of significant, maybe even paramount importance yet to claim that nothing else has an impact? You rule out all genetic influences for instance. I'll expand once I return from school.

What if genetics is shaped in part by the environment?

I can answer your question in the affirmative, and still maintain my thesis. I'm arguing that both genetics and the environment (and by extension our 'experiences') have an impact. I said that there was a degree to which my views were independent of experience. You replied that this was false; there can be nothing other than experience that affects how I perceive the world in your view.

Of course there's a degree to which genetics shapes the environment and vice versa. However, both still have a part to play. My inclination to certain facets of learning may relate to my IQ and natural abilities in certain fields. My genetics may account for height and hair colour. Genetics creates things which endure. These physical and mental attributes endure. Experience may add layers to my views, but experience must rest upon the foundation of genetics; how are we to perceive and interpret our first experiences? We have to have some apparatus in place. This apparatus is independent of experience; it is created before we are conscious, yet impacts how we view things.
"Tis not in mortals to command success
But we"ll do more, Sempronius, we"ll deserve it
YYW
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5/3/2013 7:16:34 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/2/2013 8:44:38 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 5/2/2013 1:35:26 PM, YYW wrote:
At 5/1/2013 7:03:56 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
I grew up under odd conditions, to say the least. The area in which I grew up is a sliver of rural piedmont hills. A wild, pastoral band between the rust belt city of Bethlehem and the immaculately manicured Welsh Belt and Main Line of Philadelphia. My mother's family consists of one branch of Russian and German immigrants from Bethlehem, and another branch of freewheeling, artistic motorcycle enthusiasts/painters from the nicer Philadelphia suburbs. My father's side is a sort of thoroughly entrenched, crumbling redneck aristocracy, bitterly fighting one another over the dregs of a local quarrying empire, which has been reduced to a couple slices of real-estate. Most have since been sold off in order to support the heirs, and by the time father's generation came along, there was nothing left to inherit.

I went to a decent public school, was raised without religion, as my maternal grandmother's side of the family is thoroughly atheist going back at least four generations. My mother was a stay-at-home mother, my father worked himself to the bone to support us, and there were always chores. I was in charge of the gardens and helping to cook. I went to a local college, and worked at a local businesses. I've taken family trips up and down the eastern seaboard, travel into Philadelphia regularly. My best friend and I have gone to Europe (France and Spain) and Alberta together. But overall, aside from the few grand adventures I've had the privilege of experiencing, I have been most vividly influenced by art and nature, to the point where most real people become pale, unimpressive ghosts in comparison.

That's very interesting, actually. I love Philadelphia, btw. Fantastic food, great people, brilliant culture.

Thanks! I love visiting Central City; many people write Philadelphia off without more thoroughly acquainting themselves with her impressive cultural institutions. The little hole in the wall restaurants are great as well. Did you grow up in the northeast?

The family moved around a bit, but most of my time was spent outside of Boston.
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wrichcirw
Posts: 11,196
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5/3/2013 8:45:15 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/3/2013 6:50:36 AM, Logic_on_rails wrote:
At 5/2/2013 2:11:44 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 5/1/2013 4:17:05 PM, Logic_on_rails wrote:
At 5/1/2013 9:38:32 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
With each day that passes I come to view experience as a more powerful thing; I now seek out tales of others past experiences, as opposed to asking other sorts of things. I think that I'm strongly influenced by my experiences; how could I not be? That said, I think there's a degree to which my view is independent of my experience. That's a bold claim to make I know, but there seems to be enduring aspects of my personality and skills, which in turn affect my perception of the world. These aspects endure despite experience.

I would say this is totally false. Your personality was shaped by the interactions with the people and objects around you - how could they not? Even more so for your skills and viewpoints. All of this is "experience".

What if your personality is shaped in part by genetics? There's a lot of literature on the extent to which IQ is heritable vs. environmentally determined. I'm not saying that experience isn't of significant, maybe even paramount importance yet to claim that nothing else has an impact? You rule out all genetic influences for instance. I'll expand once I return from school.

What if genetics is shaped in part by the environment?

I can answer your question in the affirmative, and still maintain my thesis. I'm arguing that both genetics and the environment (and by extension our 'experiences') have an impact. I said that there was a degree to which my views were independent of experience. You replied that this was false; there can be nothing other than experience that affects how I perceive the world in your view.

Of course there's a degree to which genetics shapes the environment and vice versa. However, both still have a part to play. My inclination to certain facets of learning may relate to my IQ and natural abilities in certain fields. My genetics may account for height and hair colour. Genetics creates things which endure. These physical and mental attributes endure. Experience may add layers to my views, but experience must rest upon the foundation of genetics; how are we to perceive and interpret our first experiences? We have to have some apparatus in place. This apparatus is independent of experience; it is created before we are conscious, yet impacts how we view things.

I would say that genetics is a product of our environment. Each person's genetic code is unique yes, but that uniqueness is encoded via conception, an experience. In this sense, I would maintain that there is nothing else BUT experience that shapes our perspectives.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
wrichcirw
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5/3/2013 8:47:39 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/3/2013 6:50:36 AM, Logic_on_rails wrote:

This apparatus is independent of experience; it is created before we are conscious, yet impacts how we view things.

Regarding consciousness, I view it as irrelevant to the topic of experience. We remember little, if anything of our pre-toddler existence. Yet, if we have life-shaping events during these years (bad bump to the head, bad disease, etc), these experiences easily shape our livelihood, regardless of whether or not we were conscious of their developments.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
suttichart.denpruektham
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5/3/2013 9:45:41 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
What did you think of Les Miserables?


That should be discussed in another topic, although I think the music is absolutely fantastic.
wrichcirw
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5/3/2013 10:05:43 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/3/2013 9:45:41 AM, suttichart.denpruektham wrote:
What did you think of Les Miserables?


That should be discussed in another topic, although I think the music is absolutely fantastic.

Well, very little of this discussion has anything to do with philosophy really, other than what logic_on_rails and I are discussing. :o
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
sadolite
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5/3/2013 4:51:36 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
How Do You See the World? I see the world as a miracle. The humans living on it, again a miracle. Their behavior, no opinion
It's not your views that divide us, it's what you think my views should be that divides us.

If you think I will give up my rights and forsake social etiquette to make you "FEEL" better you are sadly mistaken

If liberal democrats would just stop shooting people gun violence would drop by 90%
cybertron1998
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5/3/2013 4:55:41 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/3/2013 4:51:36 PM, sadolite wrote:
How Do You See the World? I see the world as a miracle. The humans living on it, again a miracle. Their behavior, no opinion

if humans were wiped completely off the face of the earth, things would keep moving. if something like spiders what wiped from the earth, hundreds of species would die(maybe even us). i just want to put out how insignificant we are.
Epsilon: There are so many stories where some brave hero decides to give their life to save the day, and because of their sacrifice, the good guys win, the survivors all cheer, and everybody lives happily ever after. But the hero... never gets to see that ending. They'll never know if their sacrifice actually made a difference. They'll never know if the day was really saved. In the end, they just have to have faith.
Logic_on_rails
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5/3/2013 6:39:35 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/3/2013 8:45:15 AM, wrichcirw wrote:

I would say that genetics is a product of our environment. Each person's genetic code is unique yes, but that uniqueness is encoded via conception, an experience. In this sense, I would maintain that there is nothing else BUT experience that shapes our perspectives.

I don't think it's justifiable to leap from 'genetics is a product of our environment' to 'only experience shapes our perspectives' . It seems preposterous to argue that things that happen before we are born classify as our 'experience' . Experience is intricately linked to what we do or have done to us in our lives - experience, by definition, does not refer to what happens before we are born. Yet what shapes us before we are born has an impact (as we maintain, to differing degrees) ... ergo something other than experience has an impact.

Even disregarding the whole definition point, I'm still inclined to view my life as having some enduring aspects that seem independent of different experiences. It's just far too bold a claim to say there's nothing other than experience that affects our lives and so forth.
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natoast
Posts: 204
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5/3/2013 6:56:24 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/3/2013 4:55:41 PM, cybertron1998 wrote:
At 5/3/2013 4:51:36 PM, sadolite wrote:
How Do You See the World? I see the world as a miracle. The humans living on it, again a miracle. Their behavior, no opinion

if humans were wiped completely off the face of the earth, things would keep moving. if something like spiders what wiped from the earth, hundreds of species would die(maybe even us). i just want to put out how insignificant we are.

Well, spiders make up an order, while humans only are a single species in the order of primates. If one species of spider went extinct, we most likely would not have a problem.
Also, I'm not sure how my experiences relate to my behavior. I live in a small, conservative town in a religious family, and I hold radically different viewpoints from most people I know. I used to be the same way, until I had a pretty sudden change a couple years ago, seemingly unrelated to any event. I dunno.
wrichcirw
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5/3/2013 8:37:25 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/3/2013 6:39:35 PM, Logic_on_rails wrote:
At 5/3/2013 8:45:15 AM, wrichcirw wrote:

I would say that genetics is a product of our environment. Each person's genetic code is unique yes, but that uniqueness is encoded via conception, an experience. In this sense, I would maintain that there is nothing else BUT experience that shapes our perspectives.

I don't think it's justifiable to leap from 'genetics is a product of our environment' to 'only experience shapes our perspectives' . It seems preposterous to argue that things that happen before we are born classify as our 'experience' . Experience is intricately linked to what we do or have done to us in our lives - experience, by definition, does not refer to what happens before we are born. Yet what shapes us before we are born has an impact (as we maintain, to differing degrees) ... ergo something other than experience has an impact.

Even disregarding the whole definition point, I'm still inclined to view my life as having some enduring aspects that seem independent of different experiences. It's just far too bold a claim to say there's nothing other than experience that affects our lives and so forth.

On the bolded, this would be a central argument in the abortion debate. When does life begin? The Pro-life camp believes it begins at conception, and would thereby agree that the experiences one has before one is born can be classified as "life experiences".

Even if we gloss over this point, you must still concede that experiences one has after one is born, yet before we actually attain some measure of consciousness, still classify as "experiences".

Apparently you view "life" as a cognitive affair, the whole "I think therefore I am" argument. I'm not certain there is any reason to attach this importance to cognition in defining life.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
AlbinoBunny
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5/6/2013 7:00:01 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/1/2013 9:35:58 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 5/1/2013 4:47:29 AM, YYW wrote:

So, what about you? Do you think that your experiences have governed the way you see the world? How do you feel about new experiences? Do you identify with where your live or do you see yourself as being better situated to live elsewhere? Are you happy where you are/with where you are going?

The bolded question is disingenuous. What else other than experience would govern the way you see the world? Even reading a book about somewhere you've never been is an "experience".

Genetics?
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wrichcirw
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5/6/2013 10:20:57 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/6/2013 7:00:01 AM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
At 5/1/2013 9:35:58 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 5/1/2013 4:47:29 AM, YYW wrote:

So, what about you? Do you think that your experiences have governed the way you see the world? How do you feel about new experiences? Do you identify with where your live or do you see yourself as being better situated to live elsewhere? Are you happy where you are/with where you are going?

The bolded question is disingenuous. What else other than experience would govern the way you see the world? Even reading a book about somewhere you've never been is an "experience".

Genetics?

lol, if you bothered to read the thread, I addressed genetics.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
Idiot
Posts: 347
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5/6/2013 9:10:18 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Considering how people got to be how they are is probably my favorite past time. And what's so beautiful about it, is that that fact in itself is so telling. We're just a big jumble of thoughts about our experiences congealing to become a force.

My grandparents are conservative, but of course they are; they were swept up in an industrial, technological and financial revolution that they couldn't have even dreamt to comprehend; but then, beforehand, politics was very important to them, and although that was small-scale politics, it left them prolifically conservative; it was either that or hand over the reins to someone else after all.

My parents, born into an economic boom, lack solid political opinions having been too distracted by their circumstances, and, simply, because they hadn't any real need of them. I once broached the subject of politics with my father only to hear the reply, "Oh you're one of those people," in a tone that screamed, "Get a job ya bum."

My granduncle, a highly intelligent man, very good looking and a prominent sportsman in his youth, turned to God and highly leftist philosophizing wondering, I imagine, why he was so lucky. He had everything and gave it all away.

And then there's me, my most studied subject. I was born afraid and defiant as all others were. My family was complete, both parental figures playing their appropriate parts in my conditioning. As far as I can remember, and outside of pure survival of course, girls were the first order of business and the reason I first felt insecure. I didn't fancy myself as much of a looker, but I did fancy myself as rather intelligent, and I thought to compensate for the former with the latter - capitalism. Things changed however. For one, I realized I was better looking than I thought. For two, I grew up in a rather turbulent environment (I got my head kicked in quite a few times) and came to greatly appreciate male companionship. And for three, I had quite a few of my bromances broken up by the deviousness of women and the jealousy of men. I ended up rather abstinent relations-wise, as regards both men and women, my few inebriated romances seemingly more statements than anything else. I came to think I was better off on my own and then I lost God and the madness rushed in. And, well, that's pretty much where I'm at currently, thinking perhaps to explain people away, praying to whatever God may be for reasons I'm not at all sure of. Politically, I seek peace and harmony.
Idiot
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5/6/2013 9:23:17 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I also did quite a lot of drugs, but it wasn't of boredom. My grandmother only ever asked three things of me: that I not smoke, that I not do drugs, and that I not get in trouble with the law. And, well, I did them all in abundance. It was of fear and defiance. I gambled my security for greater security and won. My grandmother still loves me. Textbook alcoholic :D