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What is Natural?

slo1
Posts: 4,318
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5/7/2013 1:51:55 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Which of these would you consider as natural or unnatural?

1. A flower?
2. A rabbit eating a flower?
3. A monkey eating termites off a stick he used to poke down into the termite nest.
4. A woman eating meat that was grown in a lab?
5. Dying from old age?
6. A horse starving to death after breaking a leg while running?
7. A man dying from a car accident?
8. A crane that uses body and behavior communication to signal it is ready to mate?
9. A gorilla that can use sign language to signal it wants an object from a human?
10. A child learning math?
11. A child building a bird house?
12. A a man building a disease resistant plant by splicing genes from another plant?
13. A nuclear weapon?
14. Man made drugs such as aspirin rather than collected and concentrated from willow bark?

To me they are all natural. I fail to see a distinction as they are simply different configurations of products or systems found in nature.
tBoonePickens
Posts: 3,266
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5/7/2013 4:40:55 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/7/2013 1:51:55 PM, slo1 wrote:
Which of these would you consider as natural or unnatural?

1. A flower?
2. A rabbit eating a flower?
3. A monkey eating termites off a stick he used to poke down into the termite nest.
4. A woman eating meat that was grown in a lab?
5. Dying from old age?
6. A horse starving to death after breaking a leg while running?
7. A man dying from a car accident?
8. A crane that uses body and behavior communication to signal it is ready to mate?
9. A gorilla that can use sign language to signal it wants an object from a human?
10. A child learning math?
11. A child building a bird house?
12. A a man building a disease resistant plant by splicing genes from another plant?
13. A nuclear weapon?
14. Man made drugs such as aspirin rather than collected and concentrated from willow bark?

To me they are all natural. I fail to see a distinction as they are simply different configurations of products or systems found in nature.

"What is Natural?" That which is not a product of a mind.

Resolved.
WOS
: At 10/3/2012 4:28:52 AM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
: Without nothing existing, you couldn't have something.
Skepsikyma
Posts: 8,280
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5/7/2013 5:19:26 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I agree with you. I think that people draw false dichotomies between things which are natural and 'unnatural' in order to lend emotional support to some unjustified distinction or prejudice. It's related to the is-ought dilemma, really. People think that things ought to be certain way, and then decide that things which don't conform to that ought not to exist, label them as 'unnatural' in order to mark them as undesirable, and then act as if the distinction at the 'is' level is intrinsic even though it was superimposed from a theoretical and unsupported 'ought'. After failing to derive an ought from what is, they pretend that the ought is what is.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
tBoonePickens
Posts: 3,266
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5/7/2013 5:31:30 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/7/2013 5:19:26 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
I agree with you. I think that people draw false dichotomies between things which are natural and 'unnatural' in order to lend emotional support to some unjustified distinction or prejudice. It's related to the is-ought dilemma, really. People think that things ought to be certain way, and then decide that things which don't conform to that ought not to exist, label them as 'unnatural' in order to mark them as undesirable, and then act as if the distinction at the 'is' level is intrinsic even though it was superimposed from a theoretical and unsupported 'ought'. After failing to derive an ought from what is, they pretend that the ought is what is.
Words of wisdom.
WOS
: At 10/3/2012 4:28:52 AM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
: Without nothing existing, you couldn't have something.
R0b1Billion
Posts: 3,731
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5/8/2013 8:03:47 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
So you're walking through the woods and you see plastic litter. The average person says "that's unnatural." The slightly-more intelligent person thinks "plastic is made from dead animals - that's just an illusion!" The truth is that artificiality is a tremendously important concept, and it isn't just a description of seeing things in the world like TVs and plastic litter - it is demanded in theory to balance out the emergence of human intelligence.

Animals' intelligence is below the threshold for artificiality. They have not ideas of justice, righteousness, and selfishness, they have not the means to carry out changes to their environment that don't harmonize with all the other non-intelligent life-forms around them. The balance of privilege and responsibility dictates that their extremely limited capabilities have no profound consequences.

Humans' intelligence is higher than the threshold of artificiality. With great privilege comes great responsibility, so it takes conscious efforts - against our emotional impetus for selfishness and self-superiority - to keep artificiality under control. Plastic litter on a trail is a small example of what happens when a being of intelligence acts selfishly - our artifices create negative utility in our environment.

If you reject the concept of artificiality, then you create a bubble for yourself that allows you to do no wrong. You are just as innocent as instinctive animals, yet simply superior to them because you are smarter. You can justify anything you do without consequence, whether it be destroying the environment for others or else creating ideals of self-superiority (e.g., Aryanism). It is important to recognize the artificial, because it reminds us that we are capable of imperfections far beyond what the natural environment is capable of. It takes a constant effort to remain "innocent" and the more intelligent you are the higher this responsibility becomes (balancing out with your privilege).
Beliefs in a nutshell:
- The Ends never justify the Means.
- Objectivity is secondary to subjectivity.
- The War on Drugs is the worst policy in the U.S.
- Most people worship technology as a religion.
- Computers will never become sentient.
R0b1Billion
Posts: 3,731
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5/8/2013 8:16:44 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
4. A woman eating meat that was grown in a lab?
7. A man dying from a car accident?
10. A child learning math?
11. A child building a bird house?
12. A a man building a disease resistant plant by splicing genes from another plant?
13. A nuclear weapon?
14. Man made drugs such as aspirin rather than collected and concentrated from willow bark?

These items on your list escape the natural. The distinction is when intelligence is applied to make a change. So by my definition, even things like organic vegetables are artificial at least in part. Realize that many will use the "natural" label to manipulate you. Just because a soft-drink uses "natural flavors" and pure cane sugar doesn't mean it isn't artificial ;)
Beliefs in a nutshell:
- The Ends never justify the Means.
- Objectivity is secondary to subjectivity.
- The War on Drugs is the worst policy in the U.S.
- Most people worship technology as a religion.
- Computers will never become sentient.
R0b1Billion
Posts: 3,731
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5/10/2013 7:26:34 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I have a way of /ending threads on such matters, unfortunately -_-
Beliefs in a nutshell:
- The Ends never justify the Means.
- Objectivity is secondary to subjectivity.
- The War on Drugs is the worst policy in the U.S.
- Most people worship technology as a religion.
- Computers will never become sentient.
The_Fool_on_the_hill
Posts: 6,071
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5/12/2013 10:39:15 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/7/2013 4:40:55 PM, tBoonePickens wrote:
At 5/7/2013 1:51:55 PM, slo1 wrote:
Which of these would you consider as natural or unnatural?

1. A flower?
2. A rabbit eating a flower?
3. A monkey eating termites off a stick he used to poke down into the termite nest.
4. A woman eating meat that was grown in a lab?
5. Dying from old age?
6. A horse starving to death after breaking a leg while running?
7. A man dying from a car accident?
8. A crane that uses body and behavior communication to signal it is ready to mate?
9. A gorilla that can use sign language to signal it wants an object from a human?
10. A child learning math?
11. A child building a bird house?
12. A a man building a disease resistant plant by splicing genes from another plant?
13. A nuclear weapon?
14. Man made drugs such as aspirin rather than collected and concentrated from willow bark?

To me they are all natural. I fail to see a distinction as they are simply different configurations of products or systems found in nature.

"What is Natural?" That which is not a product of a mind.

Resolved.

The Fool: Have you been out of you mind again? I thought you were rehabilitated?
Crack is bad, just say no!.
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
SovereignDream
Posts: 1,119
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5/12/2013 11:25:58 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/7/2013 1:51:55 PM, slo1 wrote:
Which of these would you consider as natural or unnatural?

1. A flower?
2. A rabbit eating a flower?
3. A monkey eating termites off a stick he used to poke down into the termite nest.
4. A woman eating meat that was grown in a lab?
5. Dying from old age?
6. A horse starving to death after breaking a leg while running?
7. A man dying from a car accident?
8. A crane that uses body and behavior communication to signal it is ready to mate?
9. A gorilla that can use sign language to signal it wants an object from a human?
10. A child learning math?
11. A child building a bird house?
12. A a man building a disease resistant plant by splicing genes from another plant?
13. A nuclear weapon?
14. Man made drugs such as aspirin rather than collected and concentrated from willow bark?

To me they are all natural. I fail to see a distinction as they are simply different configurations of products or systems found in nature.

I'm inclined to see talk of things being "unnatural" and/or "natural" as uninformed corruptions of Aristotelian-Thomistic philosophical understanding of the terms "natural" and "unnatural" within the Natural Law paradigm.

To the lay person, something being "natural," I take it, is simply something that occurs in nature. This layman understanding of "natural" is often taken to support, say, the idea that homosexual acts are "natural" insofar as some animal or other in nature engages in homosexual acts. In response to which it ought to be pointed out that when homosexual acts are deemed as "unnatural" by Natural Law theorists, Natural Law theorists do not mean that homosexual acts do not occur in nature (they obviously do). Moreover, a whole host of other things, on this view, would be considered "natural," namely, murder, rape, incest, etc. Why not advocate these actions on behalf of their being "natural" in the layman's sense?

And with that, I now deign to end this arguably largely unrelated post.
The_Fool_on_the_hill
Posts: 6,071
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5/12/2013 11:39:14 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/7/2013 5:19:26 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
I agree with you. I think that people draw false dichotomies between things which are natural and 'unnatural' in order to lend emotional support to some unjustified distinction or prejudice.

The Fool: Everything is a False dichotomy" in the whole of it. Therefore they cannot draw false dichotomies, for they don't exist. Nor do you exist without me. For you are just me from a different point of view.

Skepsikyma: People think that things ought to be certain way, and then decide that things which don't conform to that ought not to exist, label them as 'unnatural' in order to mark them as undesirable, and then act as if the distinction at the 'is' level is intrinsic even though it was superimposed from a theoretical and unsupported 'ought'.

The Fool: My dear sir, I am very confused. For of course things ought be a certain way. They ought be the way they are. How could they be any other way?
You are using the term "Intrinsic" the other way around too, if you mean it another way, this is probably not what you mean.
Is this what you mean?-->>> Essential Properties

Skepsikyma: After failing to derive an ought from what is, they pretend that the ought is what is.

The Fool: Do they pretend like movie actors, or would it make more sense to say they are rather confused Like Clown Bears and Phantams. If they are acting then they weren't "Really" Deriving anything were they. They were just pretending to do so like some do with philosophy. If Ought was not an "is". Then what "is it" that you are talking about when you use the Term "ought". For if ought was "not" then you would be talking nonsense like"Noumena", as there would be no-sense in which we could know of what you are speaking about. It wouldn't exist to talk about.

And so if I took you seriously it would seem that you speak falsely. But I prefer you appear as speaking truly, therefore I will take you foolishly, and now you see how you are me!. And we, are the same. Tada!

Hooray for us!

<(8J)
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
Single_Cell_Pony
Posts: 18
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5/14/2013 12:30:25 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/7/2013 4:40:55 PM, tBoonePickens wrote:
"What is Natural?" That which is not a product of a mind.

Resolved.

I couldn't agree more. Well said.
Sower4GS
Posts: 1,718
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5/17/2013 12:36:37 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
It is natural to worship Yahushua who proceeds from the Father who is in Heaven and His name is YHWH!! Bow down and worship Him.
RoyLatham
Posts: 4,488
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5/24/2013 12:04:23 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
"Natural" has multiple meanings. In philosophy and politics it means "in accord with the laws of nature." Naturalism derives morality from human nature. In food production, it generally means "made using mechanical rather chemical means." There seem to be some exceptions, such as using salt.
Legitdebater
Posts: 76
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5/26/2013 10:34:21 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Natural:
Adjective:Existing in or caused by nature; not made or caused by humankind. Merriam Webster
In my opinion, natural is something that exists or is caused by in nature. You could argue that homosexuality isn't natural, however, studies have shown that it does happen in nature. We all have our biases on what is natural and what is not, so natural is highly subjective. By this logic, a shirt isn't natural because it was manufactured by a human, although it has something in it that is natural i.e. cotton. By this logic, birth defects are natural because they've always occurred in nature.
AlbinoBunny
Posts: 3,781
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5/26/2013 2:20:16 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/7/2013 4:40:55 PM, tBoonePickens wrote:
At 5/7/2013 1:51:55 PM, slo1 wrote:
Which of these would you consider as natural or unnatural?

1. A flower?
2. A rabbit eating a flower?
3. A monkey eating termites off a stick he used to poke down into the termite nest.
4. A woman eating meat that was grown in a lab?
5. Dying from old age?
6. A horse starving to death after breaking a leg while running?
7. A man dying from a car accident?
8. A crane that uses body and behavior communication to signal it is ready to mate?
9. A gorilla that can use sign language to signal it wants an object from a human?
10. A child learning math?
11. A child building a bird house?
12. A a man building a disease resistant plant by splicing genes from another plant?
13. A nuclear weapon?
14. Man made drugs such as aspirin rather than collected and concentrated from willow bark?

To me they are all natural. I fail to see a distinction as they are simply different configurations of products or systems found in nature.

"What is Natural?" That which is not a product of a mind.

Resolved.

I agree, but you haven't said which are unnatural or natural? Would you say, natural in bold?
bladerunner060 | bsh1 , 2014! Presidency campaign!

http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org... - Running for president.
http://www.debate.org... - Running as his vice president.

May the best man win!
Sower4GS
Posts: 1,718
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5/27/2013 5:02:07 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
This is not natural for people to do, but possible:
http://www.beithakavod.com.........

Please heed this:

Luk_17:4 "And if he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times in a day comes back to you, saying, "I repent," you shall forgive him."
Act_2:38 And Kepha said to them, "Repent, and let each one of you be immersed in the Name of Yahshua the Messiah for the forgiveness of sins.1 And you shall receive the gift of the Set-apart Spirit. Footnote: 1See 2:40, 3:19, 3:26.
Act_3:19 "Repent therefore and turn back, for the blotting out of your sins, in order that times of refreshing might come from the presence of the Master,
Act_8:22 "Repent therefore of this evil of yours, and plead with Elohim to forgive you the intention of your heart.
AlbinoBunny
Posts: 3,781
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5/27/2013 11:04:02 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/27/2013 5:02:07 AM, Sower4GS wrote:
This is not natural for people to do, but possible:
http://www.beithakavod.com.........

Please heed this:

Luk_17:4 "And if he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times in a day comes back to you, saying, "I repent," you shall forgive him."
Act_2:38 And Kepha said to them, "Repent, and let each one of you be immersed in the Name of Yahshua the Messiah for the forgiveness of sins.1 And you shall receive the gift of the Set-apart Spirit. Footnote: 1See 2:40, 3:19, 3:26.
Act_3:19 "Repent therefore and turn back, for the blotting out of your sins, in order that times of refreshing might come from the presence of the Master,
Act_8:22 "Repent therefore of this evil of yours, and plead with Elohim to forgive you the intention of your heart.

What unique importance do Israel and scriptures have to do with the philosophical distinction with what is natural and what is unnatural?
bladerunner060 | bsh1 , 2014! Presidency campaign!

http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org... - Running for president.
http://www.debate.org... - Running as his vice president.

May the best man win!
Lordknukle
Posts: 12,788
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5/27/2013 5:36:30 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Da gays bee unatural!
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
cybertron1998
Posts: 5,818
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5/27/2013 5:56:32 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/27/2013 5:36:30 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
Da gays bee unatural!

oh please die now
Epsilon: There are so many stories where some brave hero decides to give their life to save the day, and because of their sacrifice, the good guys win, the survivors all cheer, and everybody lives happily ever after. But the hero... never gets to see that ending. They'll never know if their sacrifice actually made a difference. They'll never know if the day was really saved. In the end, they just have to have faith.
Lordknukle
Posts: 12,788
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5/27/2013 9:44:59 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/27/2013 5:56:32 PM, cybertron1998 wrote:
At 5/27/2013 5:36:30 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
Da gays bee unatural!

oh please die now

I thought my utter lack of spelling and grammar skills would indicate that my statement was facetious.
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
Sower4GS
Posts: 1,718
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5/28/2013 7:26:16 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/28/2013 7:24:43 AM, Sower4GS wrote:
Let me repeat that since no one gave this a positive response like it needs....It is natural to worship Yahushua who proceeds from the Father who is in Heaven and His name is YHWH!! Bow down and worship Him.
Now please respond positively, YHWH is worthy.
Sower4GS
Posts: 1,718
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5/28/2013 7:30:42 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/27/2013 11:04:02 AM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
At 5/27/2013 5:02:07 AM, Sower4GS wrote:
This is not natural for people to do, but possible:
http://www.beithakavod.com.........

Please heed this:

Luk_17:4 "And if he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times in a day comes back to you, saying, "I repent," you shall forgive him."
Act_2:38 And Kepha said to them, "Repent, and let each one of you be immersed in the Name of Yahshua the Messiah for the forgiveness of sins.1 And you shall receive the gift of the Set-apart Spirit. Footnote: 1See 2:40, 3:19, 3:26.
Act_3:19 "Repent therefore and turn back, for the blotting out of your sins, in order that times of refreshing might come from the presence of the Master,
Act_8:22 "Repent therefore of this evil of yours, and plead with Elohim to forgive you the intention of your heart.

What unique importance do Israel and scriptures have to do with the philosophical distinction with what is natural and what is unnatural?

Are you serious Rabbit?
EVERYTHING!
YHWH made Israelites long before Philosophy ever even became a thought in man's brain. Philosophy is a waste of time, study Scripture. Natural and unnatural> you are wasting my time with these questions..Being an Israelite is NATURAL and the way YHWH wants us to be. Now go study.
Mysterious_Stranger
Posts: 1,562
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6/3/2013 9:38:00 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/7/2013 1:51:55 PM, slo1 wrote:
Which of these would you consider as natural or unnatural?

1. A flower?
2. A rabbit eating a flower?
3. A monkey eating termites off a stick he used to poke down into the termite nest.
4. A woman eating meat that was grown in a lab?
5. Dying from old age?
6. A horse starving to death after breaking a leg while running?
7. A man dying from a car accident?
8. A crane that uses body and behavior communication to signal it is ready to mate?
9. A gorilla that can use sign language to signal it wants an object from a human?
10. A child learning math?
11. A child building a bird house?
12. A a man building a disease resistant plant by splicing genes from another plant?
13. A nuclear weapon?
14. Man made drugs such as aspirin rather than collected and concentrated from willow bark?

To me they are all natural. I fail to see a distinction as they are simply different configurations of products or systems found in nature.

Everything is natural as any material object or weapon can be created with the materials provided by the planet.
Turn around, go back.