Total Posts:50|Showing Posts:1-30|Last Page
Jump to topic:

For the vegans

bladerunner060
Posts: 7,126
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/11/2013 1:58:43 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
I have some questions for the vegans out there, regarding animal products (as opposed to meat-eating). I'll start broad, but get more specific if there's some vegans in the hizzy:

Why no animal products at all?
Assistant moderator to airmax1227. PM me with any questions or concerns!
YYW
Posts: 36,357
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/11/2013 2:07:36 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/11/2013 1:58:43 AM, bladerunner060 wrote:
I have some questions for the vegans out there, regarding animal products (as opposed to meat-eating). I'll start broad, but get more specific if there's some vegans in the hizzy:

Why no animal products at all?

I don't remember if I've posted my take on vegans or not, but my thoughts are as follows.

I've always been suspicious of vegans. Yesterday, they were arguing for animal rights. Today, they're arguing that men should not eat beast. Tomorrow, they'll be arguing for man-beast marriages and the legalization of bestiality. Those slippery slopes are just too risky!
Tsar of DDO
Wnope
Posts: 6,924
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/11/2013 2:11:33 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/11/2013 1:58:43 AM, bladerunner060 wrote:
I have some questions for the vegans out there, regarding animal products (as opposed to meat-eating). I'll start broad, but get more specific if there's some vegans in the hizzy:

Why no animal products at all?

The general idea (at least from activists I know) is that processes which lead to access to such products inflict harm on animals.

For instance, milk. Cows are milked by having babies, and those babies being torn away from them so they can be put in a small cage and have a machine attached to their udders to pull as much milks as possible. This happens again and again until the cow dies.
Wnope
Posts: 6,924
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/11/2013 2:12:08 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/11/2013 2:11:33 AM, Wnope wrote:
At 6/11/2013 1:58:43 AM, bladerunner060 wrote:
I have some questions for the vegans out there, regarding animal products (as opposed to meat-eating). I'll start broad, but get more specific if there's some vegans in the hizzy:

Why no animal products at all?

The general idea (at least from activists I know) is that processes which lead to access to such products inflict harm on animals.

For instance, milk. Cows are milked by having babies, and those babies being torn away from them so they can be put in a small cage and have a machine attached to their udders to pull as much milks as possible. This happens again and again until the cow dies.

...and now I'm thirsty.
bladerunner060
Posts: 7,126
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/11/2013 2:13:35 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/11/2013 2:11:33 AM, Wnope wrote:
At 6/11/2013 1:58:43 AM, bladerunner060 wrote:
I have some questions for the vegans out there, regarding animal products (as opposed to meat-eating). I'll start broad, but get more specific if there's some vegans in the hizzy:

Why no animal products at all?

The general idea (at least from activists I know) is that processes which lead to access to such products inflict harm on animals.

For instance, milk. Cows are milked by having babies, and those babies being torn away from them so they can be put in a small cage and have a machine attached to their udders to pull as much milks as possible. This happens again and again until the cow dies.

But that's a system problem, not a philosophical one. The activists I've met have generally used various "slavery" analogues when discussing the philosophical problems.

I plan on questioning more on the subject of eggs and honey, specifically.
Assistant moderator to airmax1227. PM me with any questions or concerns!
YYW
Posts: 36,357
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/11/2013 2:16:33 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/11/2013 2:13:35 AM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 6/11/2013 2:11:33 AM, Wnope wrote:
At 6/11/2013 1:58:43 AM, bladerunner060 wrote:
I have some questions for the vegans out there, regarding animal products (as opposed to meat-eating). I'll start broad, but get more specific if there's some vegans in the hizzy:

Why no animal products at all?

The general idea (at least from activists I know) is that processes which lead to access to such products inflict harm on animals.

For instance, milk. Cows are milked by having babies, and those babies being torn away from them so they can be put in a small cage and have a machine attached to their udders to pull as much milks as possible. This happens again and again until the cow dies.

But that's a system problem, not a philosophical one. The activists I've met have generally used various "slavery" analogues when discussing the philosophical problems.

Have you ever listened to Jonathan Foer or Peter Singer speak? They'll often say similar thinks as well. The best argument against eating animals, oddly enough, is called "Eating Animals" by Foer -but his is a case against commercially produced animal products, not the eating of animal products conceptually. Singer, in contrast, is against the eating of animal products in a more universal sense.

I plan on questioning more on the subject of eggs and honey, specifically.
Tsar of DDO
ConservativePolitico
Posts: 8,210
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/11/2013 2:20:39 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
A lot of vegans are animal rights supporters meaning they claim animals have the same types of rights we do. Just as we have a right to be left alone, not be used as a means to an end, not be murdered or taken from our homes etc animals too have this similar types of rights because rights extend to all sentient creatures.

Problem with this belief is that it's completely untenable but that's usually the gist behind veganism.
bladerunner060
Posts: 7,126
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/11/2013 2:25:19 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
For clarity:

I don't eat meat anymore, because I don't see a compelling reason to justify it, and I see enough reason to question its legitimacy that, lacking a rebuttal to those questions, I refrain.

Were I richer, I'd be full-blown vegan out of laziness. But, since I'm not rich (and I can't do gluten, which just doubles up on the "costs me more and I have to go to the hippy grocery"), I'm analyzing my beliefs on the subject.
Assistant moderator to airmax1227. PM me with any questions or concerns!
FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/11/2013 2:34:28 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
I don't think we have any active vegans.

As a vegetarian, I find veganism to actually be less humane.

Animals are worse off, in a human ruled world, when we have no use for them at all.

It's funny that most vegans aren't against owning pets. I own chickens. They don't seem to care that I eat their eggs. As long as they aren't stuck in small cages or otherwise treated improperly, I don't see the issue that vegans have.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
bladerunner060
Posts: 7,126
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/11/2013 2:37:13 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/11/2013 2:34:28 AM, FREEDO wrote:
I don't think we have any active vegans.

As a vegetarian, I find veganism to actually be less humane.

Animals are worse off, in a human ruled world, when we have no use for them at all.

It's funny that most vegans aren't against owning pets. I own chickens. They don't seem to care that I eat their eggs. As long as they aren't stuck in small cages or otherwise treated improperly, I don't see the issue that vegans have.

Well, personally, the reason I stopped eating the vast quantity of eggs I used to eat is the awfulness that is the chick production industry. However, I totally would eat them if I could legally have chickens as pets...they just poop those things out!
Assistant moderator to airmax1227. PM me with any questions or concerns!
vbaculum
Posts: 1,274
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/11/2013 8:02:16 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/11/2013 2:13:35 AM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 6/11/2013 2:11:33 AM, Wnope wrote:
At 6/11/2013 1:58:43 AM, bladerunner060 wrote:
I have some questions for the vegans out there, regarding animal products (as opposed to meat-eating). I'll start broad, but get more specific if there's some vegans in the hizzy:

Why no animal products at all?

The general idea (at least from activists I know) is that processes which lead to access to such products inflict harm on animals.

For instance, milk. Cows are milked by having babies, and those babies being torn away from them so they can be put in a small cage and have a machine attached to their udders to pull as much milks as possible. This happens again and again until the cow dies.

But that's a system problem, not a philosophical one.

The argument we would make is that it is impossible for humans to have a system that humanely exploits dairy cows this way. This would be supported by the various failed attempts at humane animal agriculture.

The activists I've met have generally used various "slavery" analogues when discussing the philosophical problems.

I plan on questioning more on the subject of eggs and honey, specifically.
"If you claim to value nonviolence and you consume animal products, you need to rethink your position on nonviolence." - Gary Francione

THE WORLD IS VEGAN! If you want it
vbaculum
Posts: 1,274
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/11/2013 8:08:34 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/11/2013 2:25:19 AM, bladerunner060 wrote:
For clarity:

I don't eat meat anymore, because I don't see a compelling reason to justify it, and I see enough reason to question its legitimacy that, lacking a rebuttal to those questions, I refrain.

Were I richer, I'd be full-blown vegan out of laziness. But, since I'm not rich (and I can't do gluten, which just doubles up on the "costs me more and I have to go to the hippy grocery"), I'm analyzing my beliefs on the subject.

You can use a blender or a juicer to make milk out of tree nuts or grains. Sounds crazy but it works and it's a lot cheaper than dairy milk, especially when you buy the materials in bulk.
"If you claim to value nonviolence and you consume animal products, you need to rethink your position on nonviolence." - Gary Francione

THE WORLD IS VEGAN! If you want it
vbaculum
Posts: 1,274
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/11/2013 8:21:16 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/11/2013 2:34:28 AM, FREEDO wrote:
I don't think we have any active vegans.

I'm probably the only one. Cermank used to be.

As a vegetarian, I find veganism to actually be less humane.

Animals are worse off, in a human ruled world, when we have no use for them at all.

Domesticated species, like cows and pigs, would just go extinct if we didn't use them. The aren't wild and so depend on our exploitation for there survival.


It's funny that most vegans aren't against owning pets. I own chickens. They don't seem to care that I eat their eggs. As long as they aren't stuck in small cages or otherwise treated improperly, I don't see the issue that vegans have.

In reality, most vegans wouldn't take issue with this. The more theoretical ones would point out that this arrangement could never ensure the rights of the animals and should be abandoned.

For example, you could kill them any time you want because they are your property. You could saw their beaks, keep them in tiny cages and through there male offspring into a garbage disposal if you wanted to sale their eggs because this is standard industry practices and is fully supported under the law. At any moment you could have an incentive to do any of these things. And though you probably wouldn't, many people obviously would - thus the theoretical objection.
"If you claim to value nonviolence and you consume animal products, you need to rethink your position on nonviolence." - Gary Francione

THE WORLD IS VEGAN! If you want it
bladerunner060
Posts: 7,126
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/11/2013 12:28:20 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/11/2013 8:08:34 AM, vbaculum wrote:
At 6/11/2013 2:25:19 AM, bladerunner060 wrote:
For clarity:

I don't eat meat anymore, because I don't see a compelling reason to justify it, and I see enough reason to question its legitimacy that, lacking a rebuttal to those questions, I refrain.

Were I richer, I'd be full-blown vegan out of laziness. But, since I'm not rich (and I can't do gluten, which just doubles up on the "costs me more and I have to go to the hippy grocery"), I'm analyzing my beliefs on the subject.

You can use a blender or a juicer to make milk out of tree nuts or grains. Sounds crazy but it works and it's a lot cheaper than dairy milk, especially when you buy the materials in bulk.


I don't drink milk (or, well, cow milk. I drink a hellaton of almond milk because it's delicious). I still do cheese and cheetos, and while I don't do eggs I eat things with eggs in them (fake breads and such). I sometimes do honey.
Assistant moderator to airmax1227. PM me with any questions or concerns!
Stephen_Hawkins
Posts: 5,316
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/11/2013 12:28:55 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
The question is what makes you a vegan?

A scholar alongside Peter Singer (whose name I forget - if its that important for his name, as with anything, shoot me a pm) said he's a vegan but eats oysters. Why? Because they lack the ability to feel pain. Thus, it is OK to eat them as they cannot suffer, and they do not have a stake or care about what happens to them.

So if eating animals causes needless suffering, one ought to be a vegan if you think needless suffering is morally wrong. There are exceptions, but this exists in most positions. For example I am a utilitarian, but I am dictated by my emotions in many situations which makes me go against it. I am a liberal, but I still support traditionalist conservatism in certain dire situations (Somalia or other African nations for example). But if in general you are a vegan, then it makes more sense thinking about it like that.

Also, you say its "a system problem" and not an animal problem, meaning that as long as bees are treated nicely then it is fine to take their effort for your own. However, any vegan worth their pinch of salt will simply respond that the system is a result of a culture where we can use animals for our own ends, and by conceding this minor ground, we are essentially creating the gateway into animal abuse. Similar to the argument that smoking marijuana in its current cultural place in society is the gateway drug into the dangerous ones. Thus, any use of animals opens the door for exploitative cruel use of animals.
Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day. Teach him how to be Gay, he'll positively influence the GDP.

Social Contract Theory debate: http://www.debate.org...
bladerunner060
Posts: 7,126
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/11/2013 12:34:30 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/11/2013 12:28:55 PM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
The question is what makes you a vegan?

A scholar alongside Peter Singer (whose name I forget - if its that important for his name, as with anything, shoot me a pm) said he's a vegan but eats oysters. Why? Because they lack the ability to feel pain. Thus, it is OK to eat them as they cannot suffer, and they do not have a stake or care about what happens to them.

So if eating animals causes needless suffering, one ought to be a vegan if you think needless suffering is morally wrong. There are exceptions, but this exists in most positions. For example I am a utilitarian, but I am dictated by my emotions in many situations which makes me go against it. I am a liberal, but I still support traditionalist conservatism in certain dire situations (Somalia or other African nations for example). But if in general you are a vegan, then it makes more sense thinking about it like that.

Also, you say its "a system problem" and not an animal problem, meaning that as long as bees are treated nicely then it is fine to take their effort for your own.

Not necessarily. I was more just saying that the problem as presented was a system, not ethical one.

However, any vegan worth their pinch of salt will simply respond that the system is a result of a culture where we can use animals for our own ends, and by conceding this minor ground, we are essentially creating the gateway into animal abuse. Similar to the argument that smoking marijuana in its current cultural place in society is the gateway drug into the dangerous ones. Thus, any use of animals opens the door for exploitative cruel use of animals.

I don't like slippery slope arguments unless they're very well supported. I don't think the way our culture treats animals is related to our willingness to use their labor, I think it's our view of animals as "objects" rather than beings in their own right.
Assistant moderator to airmax1227. PM me with any questions or concerns!
vbaculum
Posts: 1,274
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/11/2013 1:02:54 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/11/2013 12:28:20 PM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 6/11/2013 8:08:34 AM, vbaculum wrote:
At 6/11/2013 2:25:19 AM, bladerunner060 wrote:
For clarity:

I don't eat meat anymore, because I don't see a compelling reason to justify it, and I see enough reason to question its legitimacy that, lacking a rebuttal to those questions, I refrain.

Were I richer, I'd be full-blown vegan out of laziness. But, since I'm not rich (and I can't do gluten, which just doubles up on the "costs me more and I have to go to the hippy grocery"), I'm analyzing my beliefs on the subject.

You can use a blender or a juicer to make milk out of tree nuts or grains. Sounds crazy but it works and it's a lot cheaper than dairy milk, especially when you buy the materials in bulk.


I don't drink milk (or, well, cow milk. I drink a hellaton of almond milk because it's delicious). I still do cheese and cheetos, and while I don't do eggs I eat things with eggs in them (fake breads and such). I sometimes do honey.

Yeah, cheese is a big one, There are vegans cheeses but I don't like them so much. I never want cheese anymore, though, because it's been so long since I've had dairy - you eventually lose the ability to digest lactose if you don't do it regularly so it's not even tempting to me.

Soy based egg replacers can be used in baked goods, though. I eat cookies, cakes and pastries all the time, and they are all really good.

A use agave for honey.

Speaking of honey, since it was brought up before: the reason I and a lot of other vegans don't eat honey is a little odd. The thing is, there is no doubt that mammals and birds suffer if other humans do. However, it's counter-intuitive for me and others to think that insects can suffer. But when we ask ourselves how it can be argued that insects don't suffer, no good reasons come forth. If an insect has a nervous system and a brain, then why can't it suffer. So the reason I would pick agave over honey is because my only other option would be to invent some special pleading sophistry to justify it. Plus agava and other sweeteners are just as good so it's no big deal anyway.
"If you claim to value nonviolence and you consume animal products, you need to rethink your position on nonviolence." - Gary Francione

THE WORLD IS VEGAN! If you want it
bladerunner060
Posts: 7,126
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/11/2013 2:25:40 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/11/2013 1:02:54 PM, vbaculum wrote:


Yeah, cheese is a big one, There are vegans cheeses but I don't like them so much.

There are some that I really like...they just cost 2-4x as much as regular cheese, and I'm not rich, y'know.

I never want cheese anymore, though, because it's been so long since I've had dairy - you eventually lose the ability to digest lactose if you don't do it regularly so it's not even tempting to me.

Soy based egg replacers can be used in baked goods, though. I eat cookies, cakes and pastries all the time, and they are all really good.

Because I have to do gluten free, using egg replacers is a lot more tricky and prone to failure. I've done it, but it's super hard and, again, expensive.


A use agave for honey.

I use agave too. And maple syrup. Honey's an "occasional" thing for me.


Speaking of honey, since it was brought up before: the reason I and a lot of other vegans don't eat honey is a little odd. The thing is, there is no doubt that mammals and birds suffer if other humans do. However, it's counter-intuitive for me and others to think that insects can suffer. But when we ask ourselves how it can be argued that insects don't suffer, no good reasons come forth. If an insect has a nervous system and a brain, then why can't it suffer. So the reason I would pick agave over honey is because my only other option would be to invent some special pleading sophistry to justify it. Plus agava and other sweeteners are just as good so it's no big deal anyway.

But why is it assumed the bees suffer, even granting that they can?
Assistant moderator to airmax1227. PM me with any questions or concerns!
vbaculum
Posts: 1,274
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/11/2013 3:00:08 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/11/2013 2:25:40 PM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 6/11/2013 1:02:54 PM, vbaculum wrote:


Yeah, cheese is a big one, There are vegans cheeses but I don't like them so much.

There are some that I really like...they just cost 2-4x as much as regular cheese, and I'm not rich, y'know.

I never want cheese anymore, though, because it's been so long since I've had dairy - you eventually lose the ability to digest lactose if you don't do it regularly so it's not even tempting to me.

Soy based egg replacers can be used in baked goods, though. I eat cookies, cakes and pastries all the time, and they are all really good.

Because I have to do gluten free, using egg replacers is a lot more tricky and prone to failure. I've done it, but it's super hard and, again, expensive.


A use agave for honey.

I use agave too. And maple syrup. Honey's an "occasional" thing for me.


Speaking of honey, since it was brought up before: the reason I and a lot of other vegans don't eat honey is a little odd. The thing is, there is no doubt that mammals and birds suffer if other humans do. However, it's counter-intuitive for me and others to think that insects can suffer. But when we ask ourselves how it can be argued that insects don't suffer, no good reasons come forth. If an insect has a nervous system and a brain, then why can't it suffer. So the reason I would pick agave over honey is because my only other option would be to invent some special pleading sophistry to justify it. Plus agava and other sweeteners are just as good so it's no big deal anyway.

But why is it assumed the bees suffer, even granting that they can?

You mean: why is it assumed they suffer at the hands of beekeepers?

Good question. I'm probably not the one to ask. I don't really know or think much about it. I just assumed that they do since some vegans object to using honey and, pretty much every other animal is abused horrendously in animal agriculure.
"If you claim to value nonviolence and you consume animal products, you need to rethink your position on nonviolence." - Gary Francione

THE WORLD IS VEGAN! If you want it
Stephen_Hawkins
Posts: 5,316
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/11/2013 3:12:29 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
The principle is that the justification always relies on some form of dominion. It is the dominion that is bad, not only in itself, but also because dominion reasonably concludes that we have the right to force animals to bend to our will. Given the example of how most libertarians would argue that we should not have to look after the poor in society because it's not our fault, but forcing them into a job is immoral, an animal welfarist would argue down the same way.
Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day. Teach him how to be Gay, he'll positively influence the GDP.

Social Contract Theory debate: http://www.debate.org...
vbaculum
Posts: 1,274
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/11/2013 3:18:18 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/11/2013 3:12:29 PM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
The principle is that the justification always relies on some form of dominion. It is the dominion that is bad, not only in itself, but also because dominion reasonably concludes that we have the right to force animals to bend to our will. Given the example of how most libertarians would argue that we should not have to look after the poor in society because it's not our fault, but forcing them into a job is immoral, an animal welfarist would argue down the same way.

If dominion doesn't result in suffering, how is it immoral?
"If you claim to value nonviolence and you consume animal products, you need to rethink your position on nonviolence." - Gary Francione

THE WORLD IS VEGAN! If you want it
Skepsikyma
Posts: 8,286
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/11/2013 5:30:59 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/11/2013 3:00:08 PM, vbaculum wrote:
At 6/11/2013 2:25:40 PM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 6/11/2013 1:02:54 PM, vbaculum wrote:


Yeah, cheese is a big one, There are vegans cheeses but I don't like them so much.

There are some that I really like...they just cost 2-4x as much as regular cheese, and I'm not rich, y'know.

I never want cheese anymore, though, because it's been so long since I've had dairy - you eventually lose the ability to digest lactose if you don't do it regularly so it's not even tempting to me.

Soy based egg replacers can be used in baked goods, though. I eat cookies, cakes and pastries all the time, and they are all really good.

Because I have to do gluten free, using egg replacers is a lot more tricky and prone to failure. I've done it, but it's super hard and, again, expensive.


A use agave for honey.

I use agave too. And maple syrup. Honey's an "occasional" thing for me.


Speaking of honey, since it was brought up before: the reason I and a lot of other vegans don't eat honey is a little odd. The thing is, there is no doubt that mammals and birds suffer if other humans do. However, it's counter-intuitive for me and others to think that insects can suffer. But when we ask ourselves how it can be argued that insects don't suffer, no good reasons come forth. If an insect has a nervous system and a brain, then why can't it suffer. So the reason I would pick agave over honey is because my only other option would be to invent some special pleading sophistry to justify it. Plus agava and other sweeteners are just as good so it's no big deal anyway.

But why is it assumed the bees suffer, even granting that they can?

You mean: why is it assumed they suffer at the hands of beekeepers?

Good question. I'm probably not the one to ask. I don't really know or think much about it. I just assumed that they do since some vegans object to using honey and, pretty much every other animal is abused horrendously in animal agriculure.

I live in a sort of local beekeepers mecca, and my friend is a beekeeper, and I can't think of any way that the bees could conceivably suffer from the arrangement. They're basically given the perfect spot to build a home, we plant their favorite foods near them, we protect them with various cages from predators, and help to keep away parasites and other hive pests. In return, we harvest a bit of their honey and eat it. It's very much parallel to the mutualistic relationships which exist between ants and aphids (the ants protect the aphids and eat their sugary secretions) and ants and myrmecophytic acacias. In the latter arrangement, the acacias give the ants food and shelter in exchange for protection. In another way of looking at it, the ant protects the tree and disperses it's seed, and the tree offers some of its production as reward in the form of elaiosomes and beltian bodies. The tree also provides homes for the ants inside hollow thorns. If you think as the people as ants and the tree as the bee colony, the relationship which we offer bees is even more one-sided in their favor, as we provide them with shelter, not the other way around.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
vbaculum
Posts: 1,274
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/11/2013 7:20:46 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/11/2013 5:30:59 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 6/11/2013 3:00:08 PM, vbaculum wrote:
At 6/11/2013 2:25:40 PM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 6/11/2013 1:02:54 PM, vbaculum wrote:


Yeah, cheese is a big one, There are vegans cheeses but I don't like them so much.

There are some that I really like...they just cost 2-4x as much as regular cheese, and I'm not rich, y'know.

I never want cheese anymore, though, because it's been so long since I've had dairy - you eventually lose the ability to digest lactose if you don't do it regularly so it's not even tempting to me.

Soy based egg replacers can be used in baked goods, though. I eat cookies, cakes and pastries all the time, and they are all really good.

Because I have to do gluten free, using egg replacers is a lot more tricky and prone to failure. I've done it, but it's super hard and, again, expensive.


A use agave for honey.

I use agave too. And maple syrup. Honey's an "occasional" thing for me.


Speaking of honey, since it was brought up before: the reason I and a lot of other vegans don't eat honey is a little odd. The thing is, there is no doubt that mammals and birds suffer if other humans do. However, it's counter-intuitive for me and others to think that insects can suffer. But when we ask ourselves how it can be argued that insects don't suffer, no good reasons come forth. If an insect has a nervous system and a brain, then why can't it suffer. So the reason I would pick agave over honey is because my only other option would be to invent some special pleading sophistry to justify it. Plus agava and other sweeteners are just as good so it's no big deal anyway.

But why is it assumed the bees suffer, even granting that they can?

You mean: why is it assumed they suffer at the hands of beekeepers?

Good question. I'm probably not the one to ask. I don't really know or think much about it. I just assumed that they do since some vegans object to using honey and, pretty much every other animal is abused horrendously in animal agriculure.

I live in a sort of local beekeepers mecca, and my friend is a beekeeper, and I can't think of any way that the bees could conceivably suffer from the arrangement. They're basically given the perfect spot to build a home, we plant their favorite foods near them, we protect them with various cages from predators, and help to keep away parasites and other hive pests. In return, we harvest a bit of their honey and eat it. It's very much parallel to the mutualistic relationships which exist between ants and aphids (the ants protect the aphids and eat their sugary secretions) and ants and myrmecophytic acacias. In the latter arrangement, the acacias give the ants food and shelter in exchange for protection. In another way of looking at it, the ant protects the tree and disperses it's seed, and the tree offers some of its production as reward in the form of elaiosomes and beltian bodies. The tree also provides homes for the ants inside hollow thorns. If you think as the people as ants and the tree as the bee colony, the relationship which we offer bees is even more one-sided in their favor, as we provide them with shelter, not the other way around.

Very erudite post as usual, Skepsikyma.

I thought I should look around for some moral arguments against eating honey - if for nothing else than for the sake of arguing. I found a few things but I just can't, in all seriousness, say eating honey is immoral. Maybe it is, but as of now, someone will have to prove it to me.
"If you claim to value nonviolence and you consume animal products, you need to rethink your position on nonviolence." - Gary Francione

THE WORLD IS VEGAN! If you want it
AlbinoBunny
Posts: 3,781
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/11/2013 7:28:41 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/11/2013 3:18:18 PM, vbaculum wrote:
At 6/11/2013 3:12:29 PM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
The principle is that the justification always relies on some form of dominion. It is the dominion that is bad, not only in itself, but also because dominion reasonably concludes that we have the right to force animals to bend to our will. Given the example of how most libertarians would argue that we should not have to look after the poor in society because it's not our fault, but forcing them into a job is immoral, an animal welfarist would argue down the same way.

If dominion doesn't result in suffering, how is it immoral?

If it subtly results in their goals not being achieved so we can reach ours?
bladerunner060 | bsh1 , 2014! Presidency campaign!

http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org... - Running for president.
http://www.debate.org... - Running as his vice president.

May the best man win!
JFout
Posts: 4
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/23/2013 7:50:17 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
My family and I are vegan because we believe animals have emotions/feel pain, it is healthier and it is less expensive (I am confused on why some people think it costs more). But the biggest reason we are vegan is because we don't NEED to eat an animal or anything from one. So my question to you is, why meat?
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/23/2013 10:52:57 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/11/2013 2:20:39 AM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
A lot of vegans are animal rights supporters meaning they claim animals have the same types of rights we do. Just as we have a right to be left alone, not be used as a means to an end, not be murdered or taken from our homes etc animals too have this similar types of rights because rights extend to all sentient creatures.

Problem with this belief is that it's completely untenable but that's usually the gist behind veganism.

If you think it's untenable, then I really hope you don't own any pets lol
vbaculum
Posts: 1,274
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/23/2013 11:58:03 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/23/2013 7:50:17 AM, JFout wrote:
My family and I are vegan because we believe animals have emotions/feel pain, it is healthier and it is less expensive (I am confused on why some people think it costs more).

I think it is because a lot of the processed foods you see in health food stores that are targeted at vegans are fairly pricey.

But yeah, making beans, grains, nuts and lugumes your primary source of protein is obviously less expensive - especially if you can get it in bulk. And any of the plant-based milks (soy, rice, etc.) can be made at home for pennies.

But the biggest reason we are vegan is because we don't NEED to eat an animal or anything from one. So my question to you is, why meat?
"If you claim to value nonviolence and you consume animal products, you need to rethink your position on nonviolence." - Gary Francione

THE WORLD IS VEGAN! If you want it
bladerunner060
Posts: 7,126
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/23/2013 3:58:53 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/23/2013 7:50:17 AM, JFout wrote:
My family and I are vegan because we believe animals have emotions/feel pain, it is healthier and it is less expensive (I am confused on why some people think it costs more). But the biggest reason we are vegan is because we don't NEED to eat an animal or anything from one. So my question to you is, why meat?

That it is "less expensive" is something I'm very curious about. Granted, I also have to abstain from gluten-y products, but since I've cut most animal products (except honey and delicious, delicious cheese) out of my diet, my food budget has certainly not gone DOWN. And if I were to switch to vegan cheese, my bill would skyrocket exponentially.
Assistant moderator to airmax1227. PM me with any questions or concerns!
bladerunner060
Posts: 7,126
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/23/2013 9:03:19 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/23/2013 4:50:53 PM, ben2974 wrote:
Is it so hard to simply have respect for animals? I guess you then ask why to respect.

Who is this directed at? Was anyone advocating no respect for animals?
Assistant moderator to airmax1227. PM me with any questions or concerns!