Total Posts:12|Showing Posts:1-12
Jump to topic:

Problems with parallel universes

ClassicRobert
Posts: 2,487
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/30/2013 2:41:38 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
as explained by my nine year old cousin. I was talking about parallel universes with him, and how every time he made a decision, another universe is created where alternative choices are shown. However, he raised the objection (I'm paraphrasing for the sake of coherency) that it wouldn't really be him if he made another decision in another universe, because that doesn't accurately reflect what he wants. Thoughts?
Debate me: Economic decision theory should be adjusted to include higher-order preferences for non-normative purposes http://www.debate.org...

Do you really believe that? Or not? If you believe it, you should man up and defend it in a debate. -RoyLatham

My Pet Fish is such a Douche- NiamC

It's an app to meet friends and stuff, sort of like an adult club penguin- Thett3, describing Tinder
ClassicRobert
Posts: 2,487
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/30/2013 6:50:39 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/30/2013 5:03:36 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
How does this observation prove itself to be a problem for the claim that parallel universes exist?

I don't think it so much lays a problem for the claim that parallel universes exist, but rather, for how they work. I've always been under the notion that for every choice you make, in a parallel universe, another you exactly like you makes a different choice. But if that other person exactly like you is making a different choice, then are they really exactly like you, or even you? After all, if that alternate you has the same nature and the same nurture, why would the alternate you make a different decision?
Debate me: Economic decision theory should be adjusted to include higher-order preferences for non-normative purposes http://www.debate.org...

Do you really believe that? Or not? If you believe it, you should man up and defend it in a debate. -RoyLatham

My Pet Fish is such a Douche- NiamC

It's an app to meet friends and stuff, sort of like an adult club penguin- Thett3, describing Tinder
the_croftmeister
Posts: 678
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/30/2013 6:57:20 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/30/2013 6:50:39 PM, ClassicRobert wrote:
At 6/30/2013 5:03:36 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
How does this observation prove itself to be a problem for the claim that parallel universes exist?

I don't think it so much lays a problem for the claim that parallel universes exist, but rather, for how they work. I've always been under the notion that for every choice you make, in a parallel universe, another you exactly like you makes a different choice. But if that other person exactly like you is making a different choice, then are they really exactly like you, or even you? After all, if that alternate you has the same nature and the same nurture, why would the alternate you make a different decision?

Quantum mechanics is the only explanation. Random mechanisms are a part of nature. A person can make a slightly different decision based on the outcome of random events in the brain. However, it is only 'after' the decision is made that the two worlds can be told apart. Think of it this way, both universes were already there, they just happened to be following the same path and were thus 'indistinguishable'. Once the random event occurs that distinguishes them however, they diverge and become separable. It is important to note that under this conception the divergence occurs when the random event resolves, which is likely to be before you become consciously aware of your decision. The choices we are talking about in the parallel universes discussion are choices made at the quantum level, not at the level of conscious individuals.
ClassicRobert
Posts: 2,487
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/30/2013 7:40:25 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/30/2013 6:57:20 PM, the_croftmeister wrote:
At 6/30/2013 6:50:39 PM, ClassicRobert wrote:
At 6/30/2013 5:03:36 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
How does this observation prove itself to be a problem for the claim that parallel universes exist?

I don't think it so much lays a problem for the claim that parallel universes exist, but rather, for how they work. I've always been under the notion that for every choice you make, in a parallel universe, another you exactly like you makes a different choice. But if that other person exactly like you is making a different choice, then are they really exactly like you, or even you? After all, if that alternate you has the same nature and the same nurture, why would the alternate you make a different decision?

Quantum mechanics is the only explanation. Random mechanisms are a part of nature. A person can make a slightly different decision based on the outcome of random events in the brain. However, it is only 'after' the decision is made that the two worlds can be told apart. Think of it this way, both universes were already there, they just happened to be following the same path and were thus 'indistinguishable'. Once the random event occurs that distinguishes them however, they diverge and become separable. It is important to note that under this conception the divergence occurs when the random event resolves, which is likely to be before you become consciously aware of your decision. The choices we are talking about in the parallel universes discussion are choices made at the quantum level, not at the level of conscious individuals.

Thank you. That was a great answer for me. Now I'll just have to see if it satisfies my 9-year-old cousin.
Debate me: Economic decision theory should be adjusted to include higher-order preferences for non-normative purposes http://www.debate.org...

Do you really believe that? Or not? If you believe it, you should man up and defend it in a debate. -RoyLatham

My Pet Fish is such a Douche- NiamC

It's an app to meet friends and stuff, sort of like an adult club penguin- Thett3, describing Tinder
dylancatlow
Posts: 12,251
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/30/2013 8:26:13 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/30/2013 7:40:25 PM, ClassicRobert wrote:
At 6/30/2013 6:57:20 PM, the_croftmeister wrote:
At 6/30/2013 6:50:39 PM, ClassicRobert wrote:
At 6/30/2013 5:03:36 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
How does this observation prove itself to be a problem for the claim that parallel universes exist?

I don't think it so much lays a problem for the claim that parallel universes exist, but rather, for how they work. I've always been under the notion that for every choice you make, in a parallel universe, another you exactly like you makes a different choice. But if that other person exactly like you is making a different choice, then are they really exactly like you, or even you? After all, if that alternate you has the same nature and the same nurture, why would the alternate you make a different decision?

Quantum mechanics is the only explanation. Random mechanisms are a part of nature. A person can make a slightly different decision based on the outcome of random events in the brain. However, it is only 'after' the decision is made that the two worlds can be told apart. Think of it this way, both universes were already there, they just happened to be following the same path and were thus 'indistinguishable'. Once the random event occurs that distinguishes them however, they diverge and become separable. It is important to note that under this conception the divergence occurs when the random event resolves, which is likely to be before you become consciously aware of your decision. The choices we are talking about in the parallel universes discussion are choices made at the quantum level, not at the level of conscious individuals.

Thank you. That was a great answer for me. Now I'll just have to see if it satisfies my 9-year-old cousin.

A nine year old interested in quantum physics? Impressive...
RyuuKyuzo
Posts: 3,074
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/30/2013 8:35:54 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/30/2013 2:41:38 PM, ClassicRobert wrote:
as explained by my nine year old cousin. I was talking about parallel universes with him, and how every time he made a decision, another universe is created where alternative choices are shown. However, he raised the objection (I'm paraphrasing for the sake of coherency) that it wouldn't really be him if he made another decision in another universe, because that doesn't accurately reflect what he wants. Thoughts?

I guess that depends on how he defines himself.
If you're reading this, you're awesome and you should feel awesome.
Noumena
Posts: 6,047
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/30/2013 8:43:19 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Seems Humean.
: At 5/13/2014 7:05:20 PM, Crescendo wrote:
: The difference is that the gay movement is currently pushing their will on Churches, as shown in the link to gay marriage in Denmark. Meanwhile, the Inquisition ended several centuries ago.
FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/1/2013 1:24:56 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
You should tell him that right now is the only time he'll ever be himself. And in the future he'll just be a different person with the same memory.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
Drayson
Posts: 288
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/3/2013 10:46:04 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
First of all, your 9-year old cousin is probably a genius. Get his parents to IQ test him at some stage.

Now that's out of the way, I've always found this subject highly fascinating and complicated, because it all comes down to the idea of free will, and whether or not such a thing exists.

When a person chooses between two courses of action, their mind is in a particular state, and only one particular state...meaning that your cousin is right in a way. For a person to make a different choice, their mind would have to occupy a different state, albeit only very slightly so.

So if we DO have free will, and other choices than the ones we make are actually possible, that means there are other random external variables in effect, that change our mind's state. Which, I suppose is where quantum mechanics comes in...in particular the concept of particles being able to occupy multiple, contradictory states at the same time.

So, in terms of alternate realities, it may not be that the alternate version of you that made a different decision is a completely different person, rather the universe your alternate self inhabits was slightly different at that time.
"I'm not saying I don't trust you...and I'm not saying I do. But I don't"

-Topper Harley
bladerunner060
Posts: 7,126
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/4/2013 1:34:42 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
The "universe split" only occurs with non deterministic events. So not EVERY decision splits the universe....if there's a universe where I choose NOT to play Galaga, such a universe diverged from this one long ago, with whatever made me that kind of person as opposed to this one, where I consistently choose Galaga if given the same situation. Now, whether I chose chocolate or vanilla is, most of the time, arbitrary as far as I can determine. That split might occur right then, but I'm still the same me....the me who chose randomly.

I gues a good analogy would be with a die roll...a die roll splits the universe in theory. But a heavily weighted die, which ALWAYS lands on 6, does not. A universe may exist where it's not loaded, or loaded for 1, but that universe split THEN, not at the die roll.
Assistant moderator to airmax1227. PM me with any questions or concerns!
ClassicRobert
Posts: 2,487
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/4/2013 6:59:58 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Yeah, he doesn't seem to grasp any of this. He really likes that people are trying to explain it to him though :)
Debate me: Economic decision theory should be adjusted to include higher-order preferences for non-normative purposes http://www.debate.org...

Do you really believe that? Or not? If you believe it, you should man up and defend it in a debate. -RoyLatham

My Pet Fish is such a Douche- NiamC

It's an app to meet friends and stuff, sort of like an adult club penguin- Thett3, describing Tinder