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Absolute Moral Code

ConservativeAmerican
Posts: 1,676
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7/6/2013 2:09:44 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Is there any absolute moral rule or code that is irrefutable to claim as moral and acceptable for all to follow without infringing on your right to self expression/free will?
AlbinoBunny
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7/6/2013 2:21:59 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Suffering should be avoided and prosperity should be worked towards?
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phantom
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7/6/2013 2:47:48 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/6/2013 2:09:44 PM, ConservativeAmerican wrote:
Is there any absolute moral rule or code that is irrefutable to claim as moral and acceptable for all to follow without infringing on your right to self expression/free will?

No. Moral codes are constructed and can differ or be non-applicable across time, species, nations and people. I think it seems silly to think of telling an alien species that it's their obligation to do x, y or z when they might not even have any conception of morality and could be completely different to us. That applies to different cultures as well.
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
ConservativeAmerican
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7/6/2013 4:05:29 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/6/2013 2:21:59 PM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
Suffering should be avoided and prosperity should be worked towards?

What about sadists and masochists?
Poetaster
Posts: 587
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7/6/2013 6:54:29 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/6/2013 4:05:29 PM, ConservativeAmerican wrote:
At 7/6/2013 2:21:59 PM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
Suffering should be avoided and prosperity should be worked towards?
What about sadists and masochists?

What about them? As sexual profiles, the two cancel each other out by complementation; the matter resolves itself naturally.
"The book you are looking for hasn't been written yet. What you are looking for you are going to have to find yourself, it's not going to be in a book..." -Sidewalker
YYW
Posts: 36,249
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7/6/2013 6:55:38 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/6/2013 2:09:44 PM, ConservativeAmerican wrote:
Is there any absolute moral rule or code that is irrefutable to claim as moral and acceptable for all to follow without infringing on your right to self expression/free will?

No.
Tsar of DDO
bossyburrito
Posts: 14,075
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7/6/2013 7:10:25 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/6/2013 2:47:48 PM, phantom wrote:
At 7/6/2013 2:09:44 PM, ConservativeAmerican wrote:
Is there any absolute moral rule or code that is irrefutable to claim as moral and acceptable for all to follow without infringing on your right to self expression/free will?

No. Moral codes are constructed and can differ or be non-applicable across time, species, nations and people. I think it seems silly to think of telling an alien species that it's their obligation to do x, y or z when they might not even have any conception of morality and could be completely different to us. That applies to different cultures as well.

Would that not simply make the rule "X is obligated to do Y and Z, but A is not"?
#UnbanTheMadman

"Some will sell their dreams for small desires
Or lose the race to rats
Get caught in ticking traps
And start to dream of somewhere
To relax their restless flight
Somewhere out of a memory of lighted streets on quiet nights..."

~ Rush
phantom
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7/6/2013 7:26:59 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/6/2013 7:10:25 PM, bossyburrito wrote:
At 7/6/2013 2:47:48 PM, phantom wrote:
At 7/6/2013 2:09:44 PM, ConservativeAmerican wrote:
Is there any absolute moral rule or code that is irrefutable to claim as moral and acceptable for all to follow without infringing on your right to self expression/free will?

No. Moral codes are constructed and can differ or be non-applicable across time, species, nations and people. I think it seems silly to think of telling an alien species that it's their obligation to do x, y or z when they might not even have any conception of morality and could be completely different to us. That applies to different cultures as well.

Would that not simply make the rule "X is obligated to do Y and Z, but A is not"?

Yes, but you wouldn't say that's a rule of the moral code. There are absolute, universal statements related to morality but that doesn't make morality in any way absolute. Either way, you'd have to ignore what most people mean by an absolute moral code.
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
The_Fool_on_the_hill
Posts: 6,071
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7/6/2013 8:12:03 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/6/2013 6:54:29 PM, Poetaster wrote:
At 7/6/2013 4:05:29 PM, ConservativeAmerican wrote:
At 7/6/2013 2:21:59 PM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
Suffering should be avoided and prosperity should be worked towards?
What about sadists and masochists?

What about them? As sexual profiles, the two cancel each other out by complementation; the matter resolves itself naturally.

The Fool: Real S&M's, as appose to the what you project on to them doesn't work they way most projected. As they get Pleasure, From The Physical pain.

That is,
There is Physical Pain and negative internal Pain/affect, which often come together, and conversely there is physical pleasure with a Positive internal Affect/pleasure. But they don't always come together.

A relatable example of the difference between types of pleasure or pains, Would be something like Winning Ufc Fight or such, where the positive inner sensation Blocks out and Surpasses the Physical pain Sensation.
So its not Really, causing suffering for the sake of suffering like people create for themselves.

Its people that tend to have a type of sensation polarity where the inner pleasure created by their fantasy/thoughts and the fact of the taboo surpasses the Physical pain sensation and aversion that we normally get.. The physical pain Seizes for them in those moments, To become pain Proper(bad) and acts instead to stimulate their over all pleasure.

In Normal life,
Contrary to intuition, the mind can be completely distracted from enormous physical injuries, if done well. Before anesthesia life and death would most often dependent on whether you really recognized how injured you are. Paying too much attention to it could send you off into a the recoverable painful panic.

In critical situation such as war, or sports large injuries can go unnoticed when there are other thing to focus on.
There are neurons in the spinal cord that act as Gates which can connect and disconnect you to a pain sensation. They will connect more when you think of a particular aspect of your body. For example, most people are not thinking about the sensation of their butt on their chair right now. But when I bring your attention to it you get connected to that area and now may feel it.

That is why your nurse or doctor or any piercing artist will start asking you a weird questions "out of the blue" just before they stick the needle in. Its to pull your attention away the best they can so you miss part of it.

PS. The Technique is useless if you know that is what they are doing. As you will be in attention for it. So that is some knowledge that actually hurts more then it helps. But you may be able to help someone else.

I think its past my bed time.
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
The_Fool_on_the_hill
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7/6/2013 8:42:45 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/6/2013 2:47:48 PM, phantom wrote:
At 7/6/2013 2:09:44 PM, ConservativeAmerican wrote:
Is there any absolute moral rule or code that is irrefutable to claim as moral and acceptable for all to follow without infringing on your right to self expression/free will?

No. Moral codes are constructed and can differ or be non-applicable across time, species, nations and people. I think it seems silly to think of telling an alien species that it's their obligation to do x, y or z when they might not even have any conception of morality and could be completely different to us. That applies to different cultures as well.

The Fool: well, I don't know how much we can rationally project our human minds onto not human minds. I don't really think Alien Sentience Proper can be conceived by us at all. Since it is always through our minds that any conception is thought.

All we can do is reconfigure our own conceptual framework, but it's always configurations of our own sentience.

I don't think what can't be thought or what is inconceivable has any value since by the very nature of what it is, we couldn't know what we are talking about. Thus it could only be in Error ever time. Not even Error as we have and idea of what that is.

I am not even sure if we can actually have Completely New Experiences. But rather different magnitudes, level of complexities and rearrangements of a limited set of conscious sensations. Which is Plenty, when you consider that mixing contiguity can give what appears like ad infinitude-magnitudes of qualities.
I don't have previously known terms to express what I just tried too..lol But that is what felt natural and intuitive to say.
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
ClassicRobert
Posts: 2,487
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7/6/2013 8:48:54 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
This topic has been already been discussed at length. I think a better topic would be, "If an absolute moral code were to exist, what should be on it?"
Debate me: Economic decision theory should be adjusted to include higher-order preferences for non-normative purposes http://www.debate.org...

Do you really believe that? Or not? If you believe it, you should man up and defend it in a debate. -RoyLatham

My Pet Fish is such a Douche- NiamC

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bossyburrito
Posts: 14,075
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7/6/2013 8:49:29 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/6/2013 7:26:59 PM, phantom wrote:
At 7/6/2013 7:10:25 PM, bossyburrito wrote:
At 7/6/2013 2:47:48 PM, phantom wrote:
At 7/6/2013 2:09:44 PM, ConservativeAmerican wrote:
Is there any absolute moral rule or code that is irrefutable to claim as moral and acceptable for all to follow without infringing on your right to self expression/free will?

No. Moral codes are constructed and can differ or be non-applicable across time, species, nations and people. I think it seems silly to think of telling an alien species that it's their obligation to do x, y or z when they might not even have any conception of morality and could be completely different to us. That applies to different cultures as well.

Would that not simply make the rule "X is obligated to do Y and Z, but A is not"?

Yes, but you wouldn't say that's a rule of the moral code. There are absolute, universal statements related to morality but that doesn't make morality in any way absolute. Either way, you'd have to ignore what most people mean by an absolute moral code.

Can you give me an example of what an absolute moral rule (using the common definition) would look like?
#UnbanTheMadman

"Some will sell their dreams for small desires
Or lose the race to rats
Get caught in ticking traps
And start to dream of somewhere
To relax their restless flight
Somewhere out of a memory of lighted streets on quiet nights..."

~ Rush
Poetaster
Posts: 587
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7/6/2013 9:34:37 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
The Fool (as you wish to be called),

I take your overall point to be that there is a distinction between direct sensory data and the emotive judgments of those data as performed by the subject which receives them. I think that you're identifying suffering as the latter kind of thing; as an emotive judgement of sensory data, but not as the data itself. If this is your point, then I would agree with you here.

I think we should be aware, however, that this characterization sort of "de-naturalizes" suffering, meaning that it brings "suffering" to defy attempts at equating it with natural properties (e.g. pain or injury). EG:

-I may be injured in war, but experience such patriotic bliss in doing so that I wouldn't judge my state to be one of "suffering".
-A masochist may experience pain, but may not judge his experience to be one of "suffering".

In this way, suffering will defy attempts to reduce it to some natural algorithm of sensory data (pain, etc.) and bodily states (injury, etc.). If one were to concede this and still wish to maintain some kind of moral realism, then ethical non-naturalism would seem to be the necessary recourse.
"The book you are looking for hasn't been written yet. What you are looking for you are going to have to find yourself, it's not going to be in a book..." -Sidewalker
phantom
Posts: 6,774
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7/6/2013 9:52:02 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/6/2013 8:49:29 PM, bossyburrito wrote:
At 7/6/2013 7:26:59 PM, phantom wrote:
At 7/6/2013 7:10:25 PM, bossyburrito wrote:
At 7/6/2013 2:47:48 PM, phantom wrote:
At 7/6/2013 2:09:44 PM, ConservativeAmerican wrote:
Is there any absolute moral rule or code that is irrefutable to claim as moral and acceptable for all to follow without infringing on your right to self expression/free will?

No. Moral codes are constructed and can differ or be non-applicable across time, species, nations and people. I think it seems silly to think of telling an alien species that it's their obligation to do x, y or z when they might not even have any conception of morality and could be completely different to us. That applies to different cultures as well.

Would that not simply make the rule "X is obligated to do Y and Z, but A is not"?

Yes, but you wouldn't say that's a rule of the moral code. There are absolute, universal statements related to morality but that doesn't make morality in any way absolute. Either way, you'd have to ignore what most people mean by an absolute moral code.

Can you give me an example of what an absolute moral rule (using the common definition) would look like?

"It's always immoral to murder".

I think I know where you're going. Obviously there are some facts about morality that are absolute, but that's different to an actual moral code that's absolute.
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
Poetaster
Posts: 587
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7/6/2013 10:25:51 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/6/2013 8:48:54 PM, ClassicRobert wrote:
This topic has been already been discussed at length. I think a better topic would be, "If an absolute moral code were to exist, what should be on it?"

A very interesting suggestion. But I don't see how that discussion would be materially different from the one it was meant to replace. If we were to successfully answer the question, "What should we say is absolutely moral?", then wouldn't we be claiming to establish a code of absolute morality?
"The book you are looking for hasn't been written yet. What you are looking for you are going to have to find yourself, it's not going to be in a book..." -Sidewalker
ClassicRobert
Posts: 2,487
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7/6/2013 11:56:27 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/6/2013 10:25:51 PM, Poetaster wrote:
At 7/6/2013 8:48:54 PM, ClassicRobert wrote:
This topic has been already been discussed at length. I think a better topic would be, "If an absolute moral code were to exist, what should be on it?"

A very interesting suggestion. But I don't see how that discussion would be materially different from the one it was meant to replace. If we were to successfully answer the question, "What should we say is absolutely moral?", then wouldn't we be claiming to establish a code of absolute morality?

Well, I'm not saying that this would be a discussion over whether an absolute moral code does or doesn't exist. I'm just saying that if we were to establish an absolute moral code for all of humanity, what should it entail?
Debate me: Economic decision theory should be adjusted to include higher-order preferences for non-normative purposes http://www.debate.org...

Do you really believe that? Or not? If you believe it, you should man up and defend it in a debate. -RoyLatham

My Pet Fish is such a Douche- NiamC

It's an app to meet friends and stuff, sort of like an adult club penguin- Thett3, describing Tinder
ClassicRobert
Posts: 2,487
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7/7/2013 12:07:53 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/6/2013 11:56:27 PM, ClassicRobert wrote:
At 7/6/2013 10:25:51 PM, Poetaster wrote:
At 7/6/2013 8:48:54 PM, ClassicRobert wrote:
This topic has been already been discussed at length. I think a better topic would be, "If an absolute moral code were to exist, what should be on it?"

A very interesting suggestion. But I don't see how that discussion would be materially different from the one it was meant to replace. If we were to successfully answer the question, "What should we say is absolutely moral?", then wouldn't we be claiming to establish a code of absolute morality?

Well, I'm not saying that this would be a discussion over whether an absolute moral code does or doesn't exist. I'm just saying that if we were to establish an absolute moral code for all of humanity, what should it entail?

Made a different thread for this question

http://www.debate.org...
Debate me: Economic decision theory should be adjusted to include higher-order preferences for non-normative purposes http://www.debate.org...

Do you really believe that? Or not? If you believe it, you should man up and defend it in a debate. -RoyLatham

My Pet Fish is such a Douche- NiamC

It's an app to meet friends and stuff, sort of like an adult club penguin- Thett3, describing Tinder