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000ike
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7/19/2013 10:19:17 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Has anyone read in whole or in part Dennett's Consciousness Explained? Aside from the annoying tangents and verbosity of the text itself, I'm completely lost as to what it is this man has explained. He's thoroughly intent on disabusing the reader of the conventional assumptions about what consciousness is and how it operates - that there is no homunculus, or central theater, or steady flow of perceptual input and conscious awareness, or a single point in the brain at which consciousness occurs - that rather, consciousness is just the continuous interpretation of percepts to produce actions and behaviors. But I don't think the emptiness of this explanation stems from a reluctance to abandon powerful intuitive assumptions but rather from the fact that this description doesn't quite account for the experience.

I WANT a materialistic explanation of reality. I'm ready to abandon whatever cognitive artifices lead me to assume things that aren't there. But if you want to explain away a magic trick, the end result of your explanation must be identical to the end result of the trick - lest it isn't an explanation! (e.g if you want to explain how the magician made his hat "vanish", your explanation should end with a hat that's no longer there) A dense and complicated input-output description doesn't touch on the reflexive faculties, the autonomy, the process of thought itself so deeply imbued in the concept at issue. I won't lie, I can't even quite pinpoint what it is that I believe Dennett did not explain, but I do know that his explanation's end product does not match the perception here, and I don't think he's advanced any perception capable of elucidating the issue toward that end.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
000ike
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7/19/2013 10:41:00 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
If you're curious, here's a condensed example of a portion of Dennett's argument. Yes, 33 pages is condensed for him. He uses hundreds of pages to explain what can be summed in 10.

http://mind.ucsd.edu...
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
vbaculum
Posts: 1,274
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7/20/2013 1:02:33 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
I read the first few chapters but gave up because I felt like he was just spinning his wheels. I would have finished it if I believed he was going to really explain consciousness, as the title promised. He's the same way on his compatibilism too, isn't he, i.e., never really proving what he sets out to? I like him a lot more on religion and memes, though.
"If you claim to value nonviolence and you consume animal products, you need to rethink your position on nonviolence." - Gary Francione

THE WORLD IS VEGAN! If you want it
000ike
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7/20/2013 11:13:37 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/20/2013 1:02:33 AM, vbaculum wrote:
I read the first few chapters but gave up because I felt like he was just spinning his wheels. I would have finished it if I believed he was going to really explain consciousness, as the title promised. He's the same way on his compatibilism too, isn't he, i.e., never really proving what he sets out to? I like him a lot more on religion and memes, though.

I haven't read his work on religion - mainly because I know he's an atheist, and I don't think I'd absorb much from something I already agree with. Do you know of any good books on consciousness?
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
vbaculum
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7/20/2013 11:48:24 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/20/2013 11:13:37 AM, 000ike wrote:
At 7/20/2013 1:02:33 AM, vbaculum wrote:
I read the first few chapters but gave up because I felt like he was just spinning his wheels. I would have finished it if I believed he was going to really explain consciousness, as the title promised. He's the same way on his compatibilism too, isn't he, i.e., never really proving what he sets out to? I like him a lot more on religion and memes, though.

I haven't read his work on religion - mainly because I know he's an atheist, and I don't think I'd absorb much from something I already agree with. Do you know of any good books on consciousness?

His work on religion is very interesting because he analyses it as a natural, memetic phenomenon. I haven't read "Breaking the Spell", but from the speeches of his I've watched, I get the gist of it and it seems very interesting, and worth reading, more as a science book regarding the nature of religion, and less as a work of social commentary, though I think there may be some of that too.

Most of the philosophical books on consciousness I've looked at seem to be more concerned with pointed out how little we know and how little we can know. However, about a decade ago, I picked up a book called "A Universe of Consciousness" written by well-known neuroscientists. It's written for a very scientifically-minded audience so you will probably appreciate it. It's main thesis, as I remember, is that consciousness is correlated with a neural phenomenon called reentry, which is explained in the book. Definitely worth the read though I'm not sure how their theories have withstood the past decade of neuroscience research.
"If you claim to value nonviolence and you consume animal products, you need to rethink your position on nonviolence." - Gary Francione

THE WORLD IS VEGAN! If you want it
vbaculum
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7/20/2013 12:07:10 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/20/2013 11:48:24 AM, vbaculum wrote:
At 7/20/2013 11:13:37 AM, 000ike wrote:
At 7/20/2013 1:02:33 AM, vbaculum wrote:
I read the first few chapters but gave up because I felt like he was just spinning his wheels. I would have finished it if I believed he was going to really explain consciousness, as the title promised. He's the same way on his compatibilism too, isn't he, i.e., never really proving what he sets out to? I like him a lot more on religion and memes, though.

I haven't read his work on religion - mainly because I know he's an atheist, and I don't think I'd absorb much from something I already agree with. Do you know of any good books on consciousness?

His work on religion is very interesting because he analyses it as a natural, memetic phenomenon. I haven't read "Breaking the Spell", but from the speeches of his I've watched, I get the gist of it and it seems very interesting, and worth reading, more as a science book regarding the nature of religion, and less as a work of social commentary, though I think there may be some of that too.

Most of the philosophical books on consciousness I've looked at seem to be more concerned with pointed out how little we know and how little we can know. However, about a decade ago, I picked up a book called "A Universe of Consciousness" written by well-known neuroscientists. It's written for a very scientifically-minded audience so you will probably appreciate it. It's main thesis, as I remember, is that consciousness is correlated with a neural phenomenon called reentry, which is explained in the book. Definitely worth the read though I'm not sure how their theories have withstood the past decade of neuroscience research.

The full title is "A Universe Of Consciousness How Matter Becomes Imagination" for the sake of disambiguation.
"If you claim to value nonviolence and you consume animal products, you need to rethink your position on nonviolence." - Gary Francione

THE WORLD IS VEGAN! If you want it
Rational_Thinker9119
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7/20/2013 3:37:23 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
If you want to learn about interesting theories of consciousness, try looking into the universal Orch-Or theory of by Roger Penrose and Stuart Stuart Hameroff. They argue that a self-collapsing wave-function is conscious experience, and that this takes place inside microtubules.
Rational_Thinker9119
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7/20/2013 3:37:50 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/20/2013 3:37:23 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
If you want to learn about interesting theories of consciousness, try looking into the universal Orch-Or theory of by Roger Penrose and Stuart Stuart Hameroff. They argue that a self-collapsing wave-function is conscious experience, and that this takes place inside microtubules.

Just one Stuart was necessary, my bad.
000ike
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7/20/2013 3:51:44 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/20/2013 3:37:23 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
If you want to learn about interesting theories of consciousness, try looking into the universal Orch-Or theory of by Roger Penrose and Stuart Stuart Hameroff. They argue that a self-collapsing wave-function is conscious experience, and that this takes place inside microtubules.

I've heard that he (Penrose) conflates observation with detection, and that the theory is fallacious, but I still plan on reading more about it to learn a little bit more about QM at the very least.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
Sidewalker
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7/20/2013 10:06:41 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/19/2013 10:19:17 PM, 000ike wrote:
Has anyone read in whole or in part Dennett's Consciousness Explained? Aside from the annoying tangents and verbosity of the text itself, I'm completely lost as to what it is this man has explained. He's thoroughly intent on disabusing the reader of the conventional assumptions about what consciousness is and how it operates - that there is no homunculus, or central theater, or steady flow of perceptual input and conscious awareness, or a single point in the brain at which consciousness occurs - that rather, consciousness is just the continuous interpretation of percepts to produce actions and behaviors. But I don't think the emptiness of this explanation stems from a reluctance to abandon powerful intuitive assumptions but rather from the fact that this description doesn't quite account for the experience.

I WANT a materialistic explanation of reality. I'm ready to abandon whatever cognitive artifices lead me to assume things that aren't there. But if you want to explain away a magic trick, the end result of your explanation must be identical to the end result of the trick - lest it isn't an explanation! (e.g if you want to explain how the magician made his hat "vanish", your explanation should end with a hat that's no longer there) A dense and complicated input-output description doesn't touch on the reflexive faculties, the autonomy, the process of thought itself so deeply imbued in the concept at issue. I won't lie, I can't even quite pinpoint what it is that I believe Dennett did not explain, but I do know that his explanation's end product does not match the perception here, and I don't think he's advanced any perception capable of elucidating the issue toward that end.

I suffered through it out of morbid curiosity mostly, nobody really wants to see a train wreck but if you get invited to one, you have to go.

He lost me right off the bat by saying we are zombies, which is to say we aren't conscious, so I knew it was going to be a train wreck, pretty much already told us he isn't going to explain consciousness, he's just going to deny consciousness. Then he explained his methodology which confirmed it, his methodology was a frustrating dance of too many words that just said it isn't consciousness that he was going to explain.

So I'd have to say you nailed it Ike, if you are completely at a loss as to what he has explained, then you understood it very well. It was mistitled, it should have been called "Something Other Than Consciousness Explained", and I'm with you, I have no idea what it was. He pretty much rejected all of the very attributes used to define consciousness. the unity of experience, subjectivity, qualia, and once he had completely denied anything we know consciousness to involve, it was nothing but a long and painful review of the implications of this "something other than consciousness" that he is explaining. He never did tell us what he was explaining, all he really ever told us is that consciousness is what he wasn't explaining.

I'd summarize it by quoting Wolfgang Pauli, "It isn't even wrong".
"It is one of the commonest of mistakes to consider that the limit of our power of perception is also the limit of all there is to perceive." " C. W. Leadbeater
Sidewalker
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7/20/2013 10:50:16 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/19/2013 10:19:17 PM, 000ike wrote:

I WANT a materialistic explanation of reality. I'm ready to abandon whatever cognitive artifices lead me to assume things that aren't there.

Read Steven Pinker's "How the Mind Works", it's not everything, but it's a pretty good start at what you are looking for I think, at least he's wrong :)

Better yet, don't read it, there's a audio version of it, listen to it, if you want to start thinkin hard about consciousness it's best to do it with your eyes closed.
"It is one of the commonest of mistakes to consider that the limit of our power of perception is also the limit of all there is to perceive." " C. W. Leadbeater
000ike
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7/20/2013 11:23:19 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/20/2013 10:50:16 PM, Sidewalker wrote:
At 7/19/2013 10:19:17 PM, 000ike wrote:

I WANT a materialistic explanation of reality. I'm ready to abandon whatever cognitive artifices lead me to assume things that aren't there.

Read Steven Pinker's "How the Mind Works", it's not everything, but it's a pretty good start at what you are looking for I think, at least he's wrong :)

Better yet, don't read it, there's a audio version of it, listen to it, if you want to start thinkin hard about consciousness it's best to do it with your eyes closed.

3.5/5 rating on Amazon. People were complaining of a lack of content similar to Consciousness Explained. Do we really have nothing compelling? The only near 5-start book I've seen is Quantum enigma - and I conduct my book selection very thoroughly and strictly since it's an investment of time, and I need assurance that I'll have a valuable return. Thanks for the suggestion though, but I guess I'll read Quantum enigma and see what I can understand from it.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
Sidewalker
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7/21/2013 12:07:46 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/20/2013 11:23:19 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 7/20/2013 10:50:16 PM, Sidewalker wrote:
At 7/19/2013 10:19:17 PM, 000ike wrote:

I WANT a materialistic explanation of reality. I'm ready to abandon whatever cognitive artifices lead me to assume things that aren't there.

Read Steven Pinker's "How the Mind Works", it's not everything, but it's a pretty good start at what you are looking for I think, at least he's wrong :)

Better yet, don't read it, there's a audio version of it, listen to it, if you want to start thinkin hard about consciousness it's best to do it with your eyes closed.

3.5/5 rating on Amazon.

I'd tend to favor the Pulitzer Committee's judgment over the typical Amazon reader, it was a finalist, Quantum Enigma wasn't nominated.

People were complaining of a lack of content similar to Consciousness Explained.

It's nothing at all like Consciousness Explained, if you're gonna try to reduce mind to matter, I'm pretty sure you're going to need to go through a computational model of mind phase, and an evolutionary development phase, Pinker does a great job of both.

The book you are looking for hasn't been written yet, what you are looking for you are going to have to find yourself, it's not going to be in a book, like I said, it isn't everything by any stretch, but Pinker is a very good place to start.

Do we really have nothing compelling? The only near 5-start book I've seen is Quantum enigma - and I conduct my book selection very thoroughly and strictly since it's an investment of time, and I need assurance that I'll have a valuable return.

I haven't read it yet but it's my understanding that it's about the measurement problem, less explaining consciousness and more explaining the role consciousness plays in quantum physics, I think it's about the transactional nature of physical reality and mind. Something I'm fascinated by, but I didn't think that was your thing. I'm pretty sure it's a completely different subject matter than what I understood you were looking for.

Thanks for the suggestion though, but I guess I'll read Quantum enigma and see what I can understand from it.

Be advise, it might just turn you into a dualist, so be careful, you could end up joining the Sidewalker Church of What's Happening Now....tithing required.
"It is one of the commonest of mistakes to consider that the limit of our power of perception is also the limit of all there is to perceive." " C. W. Leadbeater
Poetaster
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7/21/2013 12:16:30 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/21/2013 12:07:46 AM, Sidewalker wrote:
The book you are looking for hasn't been written yet, what you are looking for you are going to have to find yourself, it's not going to be in a book...

^This is what I've been forced to confess to myself, doubled over in a sweat of incorrigible despair.

Sometimes the only way to traverse an abyss is to jump into it.

I need to go to bed.
"The book you are looking for hasn't been written yet. What you are looking for you are going to have to find yourself, it's not going to be in a book..." -Sidewalker
000ike
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7/21/2013 12:24:00 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/21/2013 12:07:46 AM, Sidewalker wrote:
At 7/20/2013 11:23:19 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 7/20/2013 10:50:16 PM, Sidewalker wrote:
At 7/19/2013 10:19:17 PM, 000ike wrote:

I WANT a materialistic explanation of reality. I'm ready to abandon whatever cognitive artifices lead me to assume things that aren't there.

Read Steven Pinker's "How the Mind Works", it's not everything, but it's a pretty good start at what you are looking for I think, at least he's wrong :)

Better yet, don't read it, there's a audio version of it, listen to it, if you want to start thinkin hard about consciousness it's best to do it with your eyes closed.

3.5/5 rating on Amazon.

I'd tend to favor the Pulitzer Committee's judgment over the typical Amazon reader, it was a finalist, Quantum Enigma wasn't nominated.

People were complaining of a lack of content similar to Consciousness Explained.

It's nothing at all like Consciousness Explained, if you're gonna try to reduce mind to matter, I'm pretty sure you're going to need to go through a computational model of mind phase, and an evolutionary development phase, Pinker does a great job of both.

The book you are looking for hasn't been written yet, what you are looking for you are going to have to find yourself, it's not going to be in a book, like I said, it isn't everything by any stretch, but Pinker is a very good place to start.

Do we really have nothing compelling? The only near 5-start book I've seen is Quantum enigma - and I conduct my book selection very thoroughly and strictly since it's an investment of time, and I need assurance that I'll have a valuable return.

I haven't read it yet but it's my understanding that it's about the measurement problem, less explaining consciousness and more explaining the role consciousness plays in quantum physics, I think it's about the transactional nature of physical reality and mind. Something I'm fascinated by, but I didn't think that was your thing. I'm pretty sure it's a completely different subject matter than what I understood you were looking for.

Thanks for the suggestion though, but I guess I'll read Quantum enigma and see what I can understand from it.

Be advise, it might just turn you into a dualist, so be careful, you could end up joining the Sidewalker Church of What's Happening Now....tithing required.

lol except that I'm a layreader in the same boat as those Amazon reviewers, so I find their accounts more authentic and trustworthy than anything else. A dualistic explanation is out of the question for me. All things that occur are physical. If it occurs, it occurs in the physical world. If it occurs in the physical world, it can be studied. We can't conclude that everything we don't yet understand is some sophisticated magic founded on philosophical guesses. So dualism is out of the question, and when I get the first whiff of it in any insight about consciousness, I won't read further.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
Poetaster
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7/21/2013 1:57:56 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
In fact, I just made that my signature.
"The book you are looking for hasn't been written yet. What you are looking for you are going to have to find yourself, it's not going to be in a book..." -Sidewalker
Sidewalker
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7/21/2013 8:07:36 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/21/2013 12:16:30 AM, Poetaster wrote:
At 7/21/2013 12:07:46 AM, Sidewalker wrote:
The book you are looking for hasn't been written yet, what you are looking for you are going to have to find yourself, it's not going to be in a book...

^This is what I've been forced to confess to myself, doubled over in a sweat of incorrigible despair.

Your comment reminds me of a profound scene from one of my all time favorite movies, "Zorba the Greek". The two central characters are Zorba and the Englishman and I think they represented the two sides of our human nature. The movie is from before any of you guys were born so let me at least tell you that it's about overcoming our intellectual detachment, jumping in and living life.

Zorba and the Englishman are sitting at a table drinking in despair, they are mourning the suicide of a young man from the village and the resulting murder of a beautiful young widow. In despair, Zorba asks the Englishman, "Why do the young die, why does anybody die?" The Englishman, classically educated and well read, replies, "I don"t know".

To this Zorba jumps up from the table and screams, "Then what the hell good are all your damn books, if they don't tell you that, then what the hell do they tell you?" The Englishman looks up at him sadly and answers deliberately, "They tell me about the agony of men who can't answer questions like yours".

It's clear you read a lot of books, probably some of the same ones I've read, and it sounds like you heard the same anguished voices crying out in the wilderness that I heard. As alone as it makes us feel to ask these questions, maybe we aren't alone at all, and that helps me feel connected.

Sometimes the only way to traverse an abyss is to jump into it.

I think life is all about overcoming our fears, recognize that the water's fine, and just jump right in, know that we are naturally buoyant, if we stop struggling we will not drown, the overriding metaphor in Zorba was dancing, here's the final scene from Zorba.

Zorba the Greek and the Englishman were working a lignite mine and needed timbers to strengthen their enterprise. The closest trees were at the top of a nearby mountain and it was impractical to carry them down. Zorba had come up with a "fast track" idea, which would allow them to bring the necessary timbers down the mountain on an overhead cable (think of Ike's book as the fast track, the mountain of information out there as the timbers). Zorba had convinced the Englishman that his scheme could work by telling him that they could not let the mountain win, but the overhead cable had been a catastrophe. Their business venture had literally collapsed with the cable, the Englishman was broke and going to have to go back home, they would never see each other again. The Englishman and his best friend, Alexis Zorba were sitting on the beach in despair.

That is when the Englishman finally understood what Zorba had been trying to teach him all along; he looked over at Zorba and said, "Teach me to dance, will you?" to which Zorba replied, "Dance? Did you say dance? Come on my boy". The heavy veil that stifled awareness had been lifted; the Englishman had finally overcome his intellectual detachment and was ready to throw himself wholeheartedly into life. These two men stood side by side, joined arms, and then Zorba issued a single dance instruction, just one word, "Together". The movie ends with these two friends dancing on the beach in a glorious celebration of life.

Life was not going to be any easier for the Englishman, not at all. But it would be real, and it would be genuine. He had overcame his fears and he was free at last, from now on he will meet life head on and embrace it, "devour the world" as Zorba had put it. He will feel everything, pain and pleasure, joy and sorrow, he will laugh and cry, and best of all, he will dance. It is a joyous occasion and they dance a liberating dance of freedom and transcendence. No, life will not be any easier for the Englishman, but it is certainly going to be better. I think I learned something essential from that final scene of "Zorba the Greek" and it is this.

Life is a gift. Each of us has the obligation to live life to the fullest and be free, to celebrate the gift. Fear is the great enemy; it can make life seem like a curse rather than a gift. It takes courage and faith to celebrate life, to be free, and to dance.

I need to go to bed.

Now I'm doing a signature, another quote from before you guys were born.
"It is one of the commonest of mistakes to consider that the limit of our power of perception is also the limit of all there is to perceive." " C. W. Leadbeater
Sidewalker
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7/21/2013 4:08:37 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/21/2013 12:24:00 AM, 000ike wrote:
At 7/21/2013 12:07:46 AM, Sidewalker wrote:
At 7/20/2013 11:23:19 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 7/20/2013 10:50:16 PM, Sidewalker wrote:
At 7/19/2013 10:19:17 PM, 000ike wrote:

I WANT a materialistic explanation of reality. I'm ready to abandon whatever cognitive artifices lead me to assume things that aren't there.

Read Steven Pinker's "How the Mind Works", it's not everything, but it's a pretty good start at what you are looking for I think, at least he's wrong :)

Better yet, don't read it, there's a audio version of it, listen to it, if you want to start thinkin hard about consciousness it's best to do it with your eyes closed.

3.5/5 rating on Amazon.

I'd tend to favor the Pulitzer Committee's judgment over the typical Amazon reader, it was a finalist, Quantum Enigma wasn't nominated.

People were complaining of a lack of content similar to Consciousness Explained.

It's nothing at all like Consciousness Explained, if you're gonna try to reduce mind to matter, I'm pretty sure you're going to need to go through a computational model of mind phase, and an evolutionary development phase, Pinker does a great job of both.

The book you are looking for hasn't been written yet, what you are looking for you are going to have to find yourself, it's not going to be in a book, like I said, it isn't everything by any stretch, but Pinker is a very good place to start.

Do we really have nothing compelling? The only near 5-start book I've seen is Quantum enigma - and I conduct my book selection very thoroughly and strictly since it's an investment of time, and I need assurance that I'll have a valuable return.

I haven't read it yet but it's my understanding that it's about the measurement problem, less explaining consciousness and more explaining the role consciousness plays in quantum physics, I think it's about the transactional nature of physical reality and mind. Something I'm fascinated by, but I didn't think that was your thing. I'm pretty sure it's a completely different subject matter than what I understood you were looking for.

Thanks for the suggestion though, but I guess I'll read Quantum enigma and see what I can understand from it.

Be advise, it might just turn you into a dualist, so be careful, you could end up joining the Sidewalker Church of What's Happening Now....tithing required.

lol except that I'm a layreader in the same boat as those Amazon reviewers, so I find their accounts more authentic and trustworthy than anything else. A dualistic explanation is out of the question for me. All things that occur are physical. If it occurs, it occurs in the physical world. If it occurs in the physical world, it can be studied. We can't conclude that everything we don't yet understand is some sophisticated magic founded on philosophical guesses. So dualism is out of the question, and when I get the first whiff of it in any insight about consciousness, I won't read further.

I was already aware that you are afraid to open that door, that"s why I"m warning you off of Quantum Enigma.

I also think you are dismissive of dualism because you are stuck in a seventeenth century understanding of it, along with a hundred and fifty year old understanding of science; you aren"t going to find that in Quantum Enigma. While you want to make consciousness contingent upon material reality, I think you"ll find the Quantum Enigma folks are going to be contending that material reality is contingent upon consciousness. Dualism today has nothing to with belief in a supernatural soul residing inside a human being; it"s about recognizing that consciousness is a fundamental constituent of reality formation, and quantum physics is not going to do anything to support your belief in determinism either, in fact, it"s probably not going to help the materialism thing. The good thing is that when you join Sidewalkerism and tithe, you do get a free toaster.

Think about the old question of the tree falling in the forest and nobody is there to hear if it made a sound, well it doesn"t, it only makes vibrations; and vibrations can only become sound if they encounter an eardrum that can translate it into a perceived sound. Vibrations are physical, but sound is qualia, without a perception of it, there is no sound. These Quantum Enigma authors are Copenhagen Interpretation guys, they are going to start by telling you that you just have to accept that we do have free will and then they are going to go on to tell you that without conscious perception there is no universe, the universe is realized, "made real" by conscious perception.

This book is going to discombobulate you I think, which could be a good thing of course, since I think you are combobulated wrong anyway =514;

But don"t try to say I didn"t warn you. I"m just saying, there"s a chance your head will explode when you read it Ike.
"It is one of the commonest of mistakes to consider that the limit of our power of perception is also the limit of all there is to perceive." " C. W. Leadbeater
Sidewalker
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7/21/2013 4:54:11 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Hmmmm....I don't know what =514; means, I typed a smiley face.
"It is one of the commonest of mistakes to consider that the limit of our power of perception is also the limit of all there is to perceive." " C. W. Leadbeater
000ike
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7/21/2013 5:04:05 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
You're right about Quantum Engima. I bought the Elegant Universe and another book by Brian Greene instead. We don't know what consciousness is yet, but if I can get a basic understanding of the material and function of the universe at a fundamental level, perhaps I'll have some kind of context for understanding what consciousness might be and what it cannot be.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
Poetaster
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7/21/2013 5:55:28 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Thank you, Sidewalker; that was a poignant expression of the inscrutability which I am increasingly finding I can neither discover nor escape, and much less dissolve. You have given me a certain camaraderie today: that it is the elusively elementary things which recline indifferently in simplicity's sly shadow, while the shadow casted over us seems to be another one, and another thing, entirely.

I think I'll check out that movie you mentioned, too.
"The book you are looking for hasn't been written yet. What you are looking for you are going to have to find yourself, it's not going to be in a book..." -Sidewalker
Sidewalker
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7/21/2013 6:52:21 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/21/2013 5:04:05 PM, 000ike wrote:
You're right about Quantum Engima. I bought the Elegant Universe and another book by Brian Greene instead. We don't know what consciousness is yet, but if I can get a basic understanding of the material and function of the universe at a fundamental level, perhaps I'll have some kind of context for understanding what consciousness might be and what it cannot be.

That's one I have read, and I can nobody articulates difficult subjects better than Greene, he's an amazing writer when it comes to difficult science and string theory is very difficult science, he's also a major contributor, so he knows what he's writing about. The guy is absolutely brilliant, get ready for a wild ride.

BTW, the Pauli quote I used, "It isn't even wrong", I'm not positive, but I think he was talking about string theory.

But hey, if you become a string theory guy we'll still have plenty to argue about, I HATE string theory.
"It is one of the commonest of mistakes to consider that the limit of our power of perception is also the limit of all there is to perceive." " C. W. Leadbeater