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# Why am I conscious?

 Posts: 2,697 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 7/28/2013 12:01:32 AMPosted: 4 years agoImagine a line. This line is infinitely long in both directions. There is a special inch somewhere along that line that we'll highlight. It is in a random place. What are the odds, assuming that the line is divided up into inches, of me randomly selecting an inch of that line and getting the special one? Obviously, infinitely low (would it be effectively zero?).I don't know what consciousness is, but I'm fairly certain that I am conscious. However, before I lived I was ostensibly never conscious, and after I die (according to materialism) I will no longer be conscious. Ever. So, again, the odds of me currently being in that conscious state are the same as the odds of selecting that special inch in the line I talked about above- infinitely small.I know what you're thinking. The weak anthropic principle shows that I have to observe before I can make an observation. But this doesn't seem compatible with the idea that death is a possible state. In other words, I cannot cease to exist forever or the above problem applies to me.What does this imply?"It is my ambition to say in ten sentences what others say in a whole book."
 Posts: 9,470 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 7/28/2013 3:14:32 AMPosted: 4 years agoAt 7/28/2013 12:01:32 AM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:Imagine a line. This line is infinitely long in both directions. There is a special inch somewhere along that line that we'll highlight. It is in a random place. What are the odds, assuming that the line is divided up into inches, of me randomly selecting an inch of that line and getting the special one? Obviously, infinitely low (would it be effectively zero?).I don't know what consciousness is, but I'm fairly certain that I am conscious. However, before I lived I was ostensibly never conscious, and after I die (according to materialism) I will no longer be conscious. Ever. So, again, the odds of me currently being in that conscious state are the same as the odds of selecting that special inch in the line I talked about above- infinitely small.Hahah That's like walking into a waiting room at the dentist and thinking "out of all the people in the world, what are the odds that these 6 exact people would be in this room!". Widely improbable things happen all the time, it means NOTHING.I know what you're thinking. The weak anthropic principle shows that I have to observe before I can make an observation. But this doesn't seem compatible with the idea that death is a possible state. In other words, I cannot cease to exist forever or the above problem applies to me.What does this imply?It implies nothing. Nothing happens when you die. Deal with it.
 Posts: 9,470 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 7/28/2013 3:17:43 AMPosted: 4 years agoAt 7/28/2013 12:01:32 AM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:Imagine a line. This line is infinitely long in both directions. There is a special inch somewhere along that line that we'll highlight. It is in a random place. What are the odds, assuming that the line is divided up into inches, of me randomly selecting an inch of that line and getting the special one? Obviously, infinitely low (would it be effectively zero?).I don't know what consciousness is, but I'm fairly certain that I am conscious. However, before I lived I was ostensibly never conscious, and after I die (according to materialism) I will no longer be conscious. Ever. So, again, the odds of me currently being in that conscious state are the same as the odds of selecting that special inch in the line I talked about above- infinitely small.I know what you're thinking. The weak anthropic principle shows that I have to observe before I can make an observation. But this doesn't seem compatible with the idea that death is a possible state. In other words, I cannot cease to exist forever or the above problem applies to me.What does this imply?I walked outside, out of all the possible flies and all the possible positions, what are the odds that the flies I saw flying around did so on that exact path, and those exact flies?! Omg it is so improbable, it just couldn't have happened! Out of all the girls in the world, what are the odds I met mine? You know what? Everything in life is improbable. I guess I must be dead...
 Posts: 9,470 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 7/28/2013 3:18:16 AMPosted: 4 years agoThe probability arguments make me sick they are so fallacious.
 Posts: 9,470 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 7/28/2013 3:21:05 AMPosted: 4 years agoI just dropped my phone two seconds ago. Out of all the things I could have done two seconds ago, what are the odds that I would drop my phone? There are almost an infinite possibilities. I guess I didn't drop my phone because it was so widely improbable.
 Posts: 9,470 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 7/28/2013 3:22:55 AMPosted: 4 years agoThe reason you're conscious is because your parents f*cked. Was this supposed to be a serious thread?
 Posts: 48 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 7/28/2013 4:27:04 AMPosted: 4 years agoAt 7/28/2013 3:22:55 AM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:The reason you're conscious is because your parents f*cked. Was this supposed to be a serious thread?That's the reason he was born. Not the reason that he is conscious.dilfilly fung fing
 Posts: 11,196 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 7/28/2013 7:27:41 AMPosted: 4 years agoAt 7/28/2013 12:01:32 AM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:Imagine a line. This line is infinitely long in both directions. There is a special inch somewhere along that line that we'll highlight. It is in a random place. What are the odds, assuming that the line is divided up into inches, of me randomly selecting an inch of that line and getting the special one? Obviously, infinitely low (would it be effectively zero?).I don't know what consciousness is, but I'm fairly certain that I am conscious. However, before I lived I was ostensibly never conscious, and after I die (according to materialism) I will no longer be conscious. Ever. So, again, the odds of me currently being in that conscious state are the same as the odds of selecting that special inch in the line I talked about above- infinitely small.I know what you're thinking. The weak anthropic principle shows that I have to observe before I can make an observation. But this doesn't seem compatible with the idea that death is a possible state. In other words, I cannot cease to exist forever or the above problem applies to me.What does this imply?nothing. There's first of all the absurdity of treating consciousness as a probability that maintains its meaning in absence. There is no "you" that shifts phase to conscious from not-conscious on logically impossible odds. Also, consciousness confers on necessary conditions for its existence. There's no probability involved when something exists by necessity, and if you transfer the probability to the existence of the necessary conditions, I'd refer you to multiverse theory.And to apply my own explanation of it - your existence corresponds to a physical entity and is perceived so, by you, from the perspective of that being. When that being ceases to exist, you cease to exist (which, if you're following, should be a tautologous statement). Consciousness therefore does not arise from anything, but is a perspective of something - thereby bound by physics in a manner that does not permit you to speak of endless probabilities."A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
 Posts: 3,781 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 7/28/2013 8:27:49 AMPosted: 4 years agoI haven't knocked you out yet.bladerunner060 | bsh1 , 2014! Presidency campaign! http://www.debate.org... http://www.debate.org... - Running for president. http://www.debate.org... - Running as his vice president. May the best man win!
 Posts: 3,781 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 7/28/2013 8:40:21 AMPosted: 4 years agoThis assumes everything is randomly generated. The odds of this happening are equal with the odds of everything else.Take the arrangement of atoms in the universe. There are about 10^100 atoms, supposedly. I guess there are far more positions than that that they can occupy, so make that conservative; 10^101.Now I'm not that good at Maths (I mean, I'm ok, but not really qualified) so maybe take this with a pinch of salt. I know there are at least 10^100 different arrangements, but I think factorial comes in here, so I think the number is 10^100! * 10^101, maybe. Someone call a mathematician.So my point is, each Plank time ~ 10^-44 seconds, this could change, well, light could travel a Plank length. I don't know how much time is needed for an atom to move that far, but it has to be less than 10^-20 seconds.All of this is ignoring the position of light, and the wavelengths, ionization, convection, half-lifes etc.Every single plank time, there could be near infinite possibilities, so after one second, I'd say it's maybe at least;1 in (10^100!*10^101)^10^44 chance that everything was in the position is was, at the time it was.I mean, it's practically impossible for anything to be anywhere, right? Luckily, things don't seem to be randomly generated, there seem to be certain "laws" and "rules" which reality, or at least, our universe seems to consistently follow.bladerunner060 | bsh1 , 2014! Presidency campaign! http://www.debate.org... http://www.debate.org... - Running for president. http://www.debate.org... - Running as his vice president. May the best man win!
 Posts: 9,470 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 7/28/2013 11:54:37 AMPosted: 4 years agoAt 7/28/2013 4:27:04 AM, BornToDebate wrote:At 7/28/2013 3:22:55 AM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:The reason you're conscious is because your parents f*cked. Was this supposed to be a serious thread?That's the reason he was born. Not the reason that he is conscious.And being born does not lead to consciousness?
 Posts: 2,697 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 7/28/2013 1:47:32 PMPosted: 4 years agoAt 7/28/2013 8:40:21 AM, AlbinoBunny wrote:This assumes everything is randomly generated. The odds of this happening are equal with the odds of everything else.Take the arrangement of atoms in the universe. There are about 10^100 atoms, supposedly. I guess there are far more positions than that that they can occupy, so make that conservative; 10^101.Now I'm not that good at Maths (I mean, I'm ok, but not really qualified) so maybe take this with a pinch of salt. I know there are at least 10^100 different arrangements, but I think factorial comes in here, so I think the number is 10^100! * 10^101, maybe. Someone call a mathematician.So my point is, each Plank time ~ 10^-44 seconds, this could change, well, light could travel a Plank length. I don't know how much time is needed for an atom to move that far, but it has to be less than 10^-20 seconds.All of this is ignoring the position of light, and the wavelengths, ionization, convection, half-lifes etc.Every single plank time, there could be near infinite possibilities, so after one second, I'd say it's maybe at least;1 in (10^100!*10^101)^10^44 chance that everything was in the position is was, at the time it was.I mean, it's practically impossible for anything to be anywhere, right? Luckily, things don't seem to be randomly generated, there seem to be certain "laws" and "rules" which reality, or at least, our universe seems to consistently follow.Incorrect: http://www.futilitycloset.com..."It is my ambition to say in ten sentences what others say in a whole book."
 Posts: 2,697 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 7/28/2013 1:51:02 PMPosted: 4 years agoAt 7/28/2013 7:27:41 AM, 000ike wrote:At 7/28/2013 12:01:32 AM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:Imagine a line. This line is infinitely long in both directions. There is a special inch somewhere along that line that we'll highlight. It is in a random place. What are the odds, assuming that the line is divided up into inches, of me randomly selecting an inch of that line and getting the special one? Obviously, infinitely low (would it be effectively zero?).I don't know what consciousness is, but I'm fairly certain that I am conscious. However, before I lived I was ostensibly never conscious, and after I die (according to materialism) I will no longer be conscious. Ever. So, again, the odds of me currently being in that conscious state are the same as the odds of selecting that special inch in the line I talked about above- infinitely small.I know what you're thinking. The weak anthropic principle shows that I have to observe before I can make an observation. But this doesn't seem compatible with the idea that death is a possible state. In other words, I cannot cease to exist forever or the above problem applies to me.What does this imply?nothing. There's first of all the absurdity of treating consciousness as a probability that maintains its meaning in absence. There is no "you" that shifts phase to conscious from not-conscious on logically impossible odds. Also, consciousness confers on necessary conditions for its existence. There's no probability involved when something exists by necessity, and if you transfer the probability to the existence of the necessary conditions, I'd refer you to multiverse theory.And to apply my own explanation of it - your existence corresponds to a physical entity and is perceived so, by you, from the perspective of that being. When that being ceases to exist, you cease to exist (which, if you're following, should be a tautologous statement). Consciousness therefore does not arise from anything, but is a perspective of something - thereby bound by physics in a manner that does not permit you to speak of endless probabilities.I don't see how your arguments are relevant (or maybe I just didn't understand them). I do think that nonexistence is a possible state and I'd like you to Google "Copernicus principle.""It is my ambition to say in ten sentences what others say in a whole book."
 Posts: 3,781 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 7/28/2013 2:33:04 PMPosted: 4 years agoAt 7/28/2013 1:47:32 PM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:At 7/28/2013 8:40:21 AM, AlbinoBunny wrote:This assumes everything is randomly generated. The odds of this happening are equal with the odds of everything else.Take the arrangement of atoms in the universe. There are about 10^100 atoms, supposedly. I guess there are far more positions than that that they can occupy, so make that conservative; 10^101.Now I'm not that good at Maths (I mean, I'm ok, but not really qualified) so maybe take this with a pinch of salt. I know there are at least 10^100 different arrangements, but I think factorial comes in here, so I think the number is 10^100! * 10^101, maybe. Someone call a mathematician.So my point is, each Plank time ~ 10^-44 seconds, this could change, well, light could travel a Plank length. I don't know how much time is needed for an atom to move that far, but it has to be less than 10^-20 seconds.All of this is ignoring the position of light, and the wavelengths, ionization, convection, half-lifes etc.Every single plank time, there could be near infinite possibilities, so after one second, I'd say it's maybe at least;1 in (10^100!*10^101)^10^44 chance that everything was in the position is was, at the time it was.I mean, it's practically impossible for anything to be anywhere, right? Luckily, things don't seem to be randomly generated, there seem to be certain "laws" and "rules" which reality, or at least, our universe seems to consistently follow.Incorrect: http://www.futilitycloset.com...You're incorrect? I am? Explain your link.bladerunner060 | bsh1 , 2014! Presidency campaign! http://www.debate.org... http://www.debate.org... - Running for president. http://www.debate.org... - Running as his vice president. May the best man win!
 Posts: 1,518 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 7/28/2013 3:27:24 PMPosted: 4 years agoAt 7/28/2013 12:01:32 AM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:Imagine a line. This line is infinitely long in both directions. There is a special inch somewhere along that line that we'll highlight. It is in a random place. What are the odds, assuming that the line is divided up into inches, of me randomly selecting an inch of that line and getting the special one? Obviously, infinitely low (would it be effectively zero?).Yes, the odds would theoretically be zero percent.I don't know what consciousness is, but I'm fairly certain that I am conscious. However, before I lived I was ostensibly never conscious, and after I die (according to materialism) I will no longer be conscious. Ever. So, again, the odds of me currently being in that conscious state are the same as the odds of selecting that special inch in the line I talked about above- infinitely small.That would be true only if (a) time actually stretches infinitely in the past and infinitely in the future, and (b) you acquiring consciousness was a purely random, probabilistic outcome. And I don't believe either of these are the case.I know what you're thinking. The weak anthropic principle shows that I have to observe before I can make an observation. But this doesn't seem compatible with the idea that death is a possible state. In other words, I cannot cease to exist forever or the above problem applies to me.What does this imply?I think it implies that you fear death.
 Posts: 2,697 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 7/28/2013 3:52:49 PMPosted: 4 years agoAt 7/28/2013 2:33:04 PM, AlbinoBunny wrote:At 7/28/2013 1:47:32 PM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:At 7/28/2013 8:40:21 AM, AlbinoBunny wrote:This assumes everything is randomly generated. The odds of this happening are equal with the odds of everything else.Take the arrangement of atoms in the universe. There are about 10^100 atoms, supposedly. I guess there are far more positions than that that they can occupy, so make that conservative; 10^101.Now I'm not that good at Maths (I mean, I'm ok, but not really qualified) so maybe take this with a pinch of salt. I know there are at least 10^100 different arrangements, but I think factorial comes in here, so I think the number is 10^100! * 10^101, maybe. Someone call a mathematician.So my point is, each Plank time ~ 10^-44 seconds, this could change, well, light could travel a Plank length. I don't know how much time is needed for an atom to move that far, but it has to be less than 10^-20 seconds.All of this is ignoring the position of light, and the wavelengths, ionization, convection, half-lifes etc.Every single plank time, there could be near infinite possibilities, so after one second, I'd say it's maybe at least;1 in (10^100!*10^101)^10^44 chance that everything was in the position is was, at the time it was.I mean, it's practically impossible for anything to be anywhere, right? Luckily, things don't seem to be randomly generated, there seem to be certain "laws" and "rules" which reality, or at least, our universe seems to consistently follow.Incorrect: http://www.futilitycloset.com...You're incorrect? I am? Explain your link.You are. Did you read?"It is my ambition to say in ten sentences what others say in a whole book."
 Posts: 2,697 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 7/28/2013 3:53:51 PMPosted: 4 years agoAt 7/28/2013 2:43:34 PM, 000ike wrote:At 7/28/2013 1:51:02 PM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:At 7/28/2013 7:27:41 AM, 000ike wrote:At 7/28/2013 12:01:32 AM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:Imagine a line. This line is infinitely long in both directions. There is a special inch somewhere along that line that we'll highlight. It is in a random place. What are the odds, assuming that the line is divided up into inches, of me randomly selecting an inch of that line and getting the special one? Obviously, infinitely low (would it be effectively zero?).I don't know what consciousness is, but I'm fairly certain that I am conscious. However, before I lived I was ostensibly never conscious, and after I die (according to materialism) I will no longer be conscious. Ever. So, again, the odds of me currently being in that conscious state are the same as the odds of selecting that special inch in the line I talked about above- infinitely small.I know what you're thinking. The weak anthropic principle shows that I have to observe before I can make an observation. But this doesn't seem compatible with the idea that death is a possible state. In other words, I cannot cease to exist forever or the above problem applies to me.What does this imply?nothing. There's first of all the absurdity of treating consciousness as a probability that maintains its meaning in absence. There is no "you" that shifts phase to conscious from not-conscious on logically impossible odds. Also, consciousness confers on necessary conditions for its existence. There's no probability involved when something exists by necessity, and if you transfer the probability to the existence of the necessary conditions, I'd refer you to multiverse theory.And to apply my own explanation of it - your existence corresponds to a physical entity and is perceived so, by you, from the perspective of that being. When that being ceases to exist, you cease to exist (which, if you're following, should be a tautologous statement). Consciousness therefore does not arise from anything, but is a perspective of something - thereby bound by physics in a manner that does not permit you to speak of endless probabilities.I don't see how your arguments are relevant (or maybe I just didn't understand them). I do think that nonexistence is a possible state and I'd like you to Google "Copernicus principle."Again, that's absurd. State describes existence - non-existence is the absence of any state. And my arguments are relevant. Your problem stems from your misapprehension of necessity and probability as well as your question-begging maintenance of identity in the face of non-existence. In short:I don't think so, but I don't know how to convey a response. It's intuitive for me. Sorry."It is my ambition to say in ten sentences what others say in a whole book."
 Posts: 1,518 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 7/28/2013 3:59:01 PMPosted: 4 years agoAt 7/28/2013 3:52:49 PM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:At 7/28/2013 2:33:04 PM, AlbinoBunny wrote:At 7/28/2013 1:47:32 PM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:At 7/28/2013 8:40:21 AM, AlbinoBunny wrote:This assumes everything is randomly generated. The odds of this happening are equal with the odds of everything else.Take the arrangement of atoms in the universe. There are about 10^100 atoms, supposedly. I guess there are far more positions than that that they can occupy, so make that conservative; 10^101.Now I'm not that good at Maths (I mean, I'm ok, but not really qualified) so maybe take this with a pinch of salt. I know there are at least 10^100 different arrangements, but I think factorial comes in here, so I think the number is 10^100! * 10^101, maybe. Someone call a mathematician.So my point is, each Plank time ~ 10^-44 seconds, this could change, well, light could travel a Plank length. I don't know how much time is needed for an atom to move that far, but it has to be less than 10^-20 seconds.All of this is ignoring the position of light, and the wavelengths, ionization, convection, half-lifes etc.Every single plank time, there could be near infinite possibilities, so after one second, I'd say it's maybe at least;1 in (10^100!*10^101)^10^44 chance that everything was in the position is was, at the time it was.I mean, it's practically impossible for anything to be anywhere, right? Luckily, things don't seem to be randomly generated, there seem to be certain "laws" and "rules" which reality, or at least, our universe seems to consistently follow.Incorrect: http://www.futilitycloset.com...You're incorrect? I am? Explain your link.You are. Did you read?I don't see how any of the information presented in that link could disprove what he said.
 Posts: 11,196 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 7/28/2013 4:02:54 PMPosted: 4 years agoAt 7/28/2013 3:53:51 PM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:At 7/28/2013 2:43:34 PM, 000ike wrote:Again, that's absurd. State describes existence - non-existence is the absence of any state. And my arguments are relevant. Your problem stems from your misapprehension of necessity and probability as well as your question-begging maintenance of identity in the face of non-existence. In short:I don't think so, but I don't know how to convey a response. It's intuitive for me. Sorry.nonsense. If you had any coherent idea of what it is you're trying to say, you'd be able to articulate it. The OP is founded on lack of understanding/ignorance in multiple respects. You can amend the logic (for instance, so there's contextualized probability (which would probably destroy your infinite improbability problem)) or you could internalize the whole thing and pretend that if it stays in your head somehow it will seem more cogent.Your choice."A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault