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Random Thought On Perfection

pozessed
Posts: 1,034
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7/30/2013 10:34:12 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Why limit ourselves to perfection in a universe that always grants us the opportunity to improve?
000ike
Posts: 11,196
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7/30/2013 10:52:15 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
There's no such thing as objective perfection, because perfection is an evaluative term delineated by subjective criteria. The only valid way to speak of perfection is in the context of conditions through which it may be judged. No one is "perfect" not because it's such an unreachable goal, but because the term, as it was used, has no logically coherent meaning.

So the first half of the sentence in the OP means absolutely nothing. And when I say it means nothing, I don't mean that it has a meaning that just happens to be irrelevant or inconsequential, I mean literally that the phrase communicates no idea whatsoever.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
dylancatlow
Posts: 12,245
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7/30/2013 11:08:43 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/30/2013 10:52:15 AM, 000ike wrote:
There's no such thing as objective perfection, because perfection is an evaluative term delineated by subjective criteria. The only valid way to speak of perfection is in the context of conditions through which it may be judged. No one is "perfect" not because it's such an unreachable goal, but because the term, as it was used, has no logically coherent meaning.

So the first half of the sentence in the OP means absolutely nothing. And when I say it means nothing, I don't mean that it has a meaning that just happens to be irrelevant or inconsequential, I mean literally that the phrase communicates no idea whatsoever.

I'm pretty sure he's using 'perfection' to mean "whatever you want to call perfection"...or else his claim is contradictory - how could he believe perfection exists if he believes improvement is always possible?
dylancatlow
Posts: 12,245
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7/30/2013 11:11:39 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/30/2013 11:08:43 AM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 7/30/2013 10:52:15 AM, 000ike wrote:
There's no such thing as objective perfection, because perfection is an evaluative term delineated by subjective criteria. The only valid way to speak of perfection is in the context of conditions through which it may be judged. No one is "perfect" not because it's such an unreachable goal, but because the term, as it was used, has no logically coherent meaning.

So the first half of the sentence in the OP means absolutely nothing. And when I say it means nothing, I don't mean that it has a meaning that just happens to be irrelevant or inconsequential, I mean literally that the phrase communicates no idea whatsoever.

I'm pretty sure he's using 'perfection' to mean "whatever you want to call perfection"...or else his claim is contradictory - how could he believe perfection exists if he believes improvement is always possible?

he's not necessarily claiming perfection is objective. He's basically just saying 'what ever your definition of perfection - it cannot be achieved.'
dylancatlow
Posts: 12,245
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7/30/2013 11:16:15 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Are you saying that the universe makes impossible any definition of perfection insofar as it should reflect reality?
000ike
Posts: 11,196
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7/30/2013 11:16:48 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/30/2013 11:08:43 AM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 7/30/2013 10:52:15 AM, 000ike wrote:
There's no such thing as objective perfection, because perfection is an evaluative term delineated by subjective criteria. The only valid way to speak of perfection is in the context of conditions through which it may be judged. No one is "perfect" not because it's such an unreachable goal, but because the term, as it was used, has no logically coherent meaning.

So the first half of the sentence in the OP means absolutely nothing. And when I say it means nothing, I don't mean that it has a meaning that just happens to be irrelevant or inconsequential, I mean literally that the phrase communicates no idea whatsoever.

I'm pretty sure he's using 'perfection' to mean "whatever you want to call perfection"...or else his claim is contradictory - how could he believe perfection exists if he believes improvement is always possible?

Both ways, the OP is still meaningless. If we're judging perfection by a set of subjective criteria, there's no such thing as improvement with that criteria intact.

So not only is he most likely referring to the notion of universal perfection but but the clauses of his sentence disagree with each other to the point of mutual exclusivity. The whole sentence isn't communicating any idea whatsoever.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
dylancatlow
Posts: 12,245
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7/30/2013 11:31:54 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/30/2013 11:16:48 AM, 000ike wrote:
At 7/30/2013 11:08:43 AM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 7/30/2013 10:52:15 AM, 000ike wrote:
There's no such thing as objective perfection, because perfection is an evaluative term delineated by subjective criteria. The only valid way to speak of perfection is in the context of conditions through which it may be judged. No one is "perfect" not because it's such an unreachable goal, but because the term, as it was used, has no logically coherent meaning.

So the first half of the sentence in the OP means absolutely nothing. And when I say it means nothing, I don't mean that it has a meaning that just happens to be irrelevant or inconsequential, I mean literally that the phrase communicates no idea whatsoever.

I'm pretty sure he's using 'perfection' to mean "whatever you want to call perfection"...or else his claim is contradictory - how could he believe perfection exists if he believes improvement is always possible?

Both ways, the OP is still meaningless. If we're judging perfection by a set of subjective criteria, there's no such thing as improvement with that criteria intact.

So not only is he most likely referring to the notion of universal perfection but but the clauses of his sentence disagree with each other to the point of mutual exclusivity. The whole sentence isn't communicating any idea whatsoever.

He's probably trying to say "why limit yourself to viewing something as perfection (not the qualities, the actual instance of) when you could always improve upon what you think would constitute perfection." He should have put "perfection" in quotes.
dylancatlow
Posts: 12,245
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7/30/2013 11:33:06 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/30/2013 11:31:54 AM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 7/30/2013 11:16:48 AM, 000ike wrote:
At 7/30/2013 11:08:43 AM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 7/30/2013 10:52:15 AM, 000ike wrote:
There's no such thing as objective perfection, because perfection is an evaluative term delineated by subjective criteria. The only valid way to speak of perfection is in the context of conditions through which it may be judged. No one is "perfect" not because it's such an unreachable goal, but because the term, as it was used, has no logically coherent meaning.

So the first half of the sentence in the OP means absolutely nothing. And when I say it means nothing, I don't mean that it has a meaning that just happens to be irrelevant or inconsequential, I mean literally that the phrase communicates no idea whatsoever.

I'm pretty sure he's using 'perfection' to mean "whatever you want to call perfection"...or else his claim is contradictory - how could he believe perfection exists if he believes improvement is always possible?

Both ways, the OP is still meaningless. If we're judging perfection by a set of subjective criteria, there's no such thing as improvement with that criteria intact.

So not only is he most likely referring to the notion of universal perfection but but the clauses of his sentence disagree with each other to the point of mutual exclusivity. The whole sentence isn't communicating any idea whatsoever.

He's probably trying to say "why limit yourself to viewing something as perfection (not the qualities, the actual instance of) when you could always improve upon something using what you think would constitute perfection." He should have put "perfection" in quotes.

fixed
wrichcirw
Posts: 11,196
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7/30/2013 11:38:24 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/30/2013 10:34:12 AM, pozessed wrote:
Why limit ourselves to perfection in a universe that always grants us the opportunity to improve?

Why limit yourself to one of something when you can have less than one?
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
000ike
Posts: 11,196
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7/30/2013 11:42:45 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/30/2013 11:31:54 AM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 7/30/2013 11:16:48 AM, 000ike wrote:
At 7/30/2013 11:08:43 AM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 7/30/2013 10:52:15 AM, 000ike wrote:
There's no such thing as objective perfection, because perfection is an evaluative term delineated by subjective criteria. The only valid way to speak of perfection is in the context of conditions through which it may be judged. No one is "perfect" not because it's such an unreachable goal, but because the term, as it was used, has no logically coherent meaning.

So the first half of the sentence in the OP means absolutely nothing. And when I say it means nothing, I don't mean that it has a meaning that just happens to be irrelevant or inconsequential, I mean literally that the phrase communicates no idea whatsoever.

I'm pretty sure he's using 'perfection' to mean "whatever you want to call perfection"...or else his claim is contradictory - how could he believe perfection exists if he believes improvement is always possible?

Both ways, the OP is still meaningless. If we're judging perfection by a set of subjective criteria, there's no such thing as improvement with that criteria intact.

So not only is he most likely referring to the notion of universal perfection but but the clauses of his sentence disagree with each other to the point of mutual exclusivity. The whole sentence isn't communicating any idea whatsoever.

He's probably trying to say "why limit yourself to viewing something as perfection (not the qualities, the actual instance of) when you could always improve upon what you think would constitute perfection." He should have put "perfection" in quotes.

um, no. If that's what he was trying to say that's what he would have said. That's not even a valid emendation either because one can't critique the criteria of a judgment without invoking new criteria of judgment...and then even more criteria of judgment to critique that one, leading to an infinite regress of judgment that never resolves to an answer. So when something is based on, for lack of a better word, taste, it isn't open for meaningful critique. You've essentially reduced the OP to, why call this beautiful (even though it meets all your criteria of beauty) when you could include this criteria instead? Well I didn't want that criteria, so what's your point?
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
pozessed
Posts: 1,034
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7/30/2013 11:43:14 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Sorry for the confusion guys. Dylan has it pegged, thank you Dylan. Although I agree with Ike, after reading his comments I will rethink what I am trying to say and reiterate later.
pozessed
Posts: 1,034
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8/9/2013 9:19:50 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
My post was about a persons desire to "perfect" something in their life. When striving for perfection, people tend to forget that perfection doesn't exist the way we'd like it to.
Df0512
Posts: 966
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8/9/2013 1:20:22 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/9/2013 9:19:50 AM, pozessed wrote:
My post was about a persons desire to "perfect" something in their life. When striving for perfection, people tend to forget that perfection doesn't exist the way we'd like it to.

Maybe it is our desire for perfection (unattainable) thats drives us to improve whats imperfect in our life.