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Should you be able to call yourself vegan if

kogline
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8/10/2013 2:26:18 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
you have an obligate carnivore for a pet? I know we can't really avoid all animal suffering but not owning a pet that eats meat seems like an easy way to cut back on the cruelty by a pretty large amount. I was thinking about this when I was feeding my grandmothers cats cans of meat and realized the bastards eat more meat than I do.
if state farm has perfected teleportation technology why do they still sell car insurance?
Beginner
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8/10/2013 3:46:11 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/10/2013 2:26:18 AM, kogline wrote:
you have an obligate carnivore for a pet? I know we can't really avoid all animal suffering but not owning a pet that eats meat seems like an easy way to cut back on the cruelty by a pretty large amount. I was thinking about this when I was feeding my grandmothers cats cans of meat and realized the bastards eat more meat than I do.

That is hilarious xD
Meat-eating is a necessary part of life-sustenance, especially for animals that are not omnivores like we are, so it can't be helped.
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AnDoctuir
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8/10/2013 11:06:15 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/10/2013 3:46:11 AM, Beginner wrote:
At 8/10/2013 2:26:18 AM, kogline wrote:
you have an obligate carnivore for a pet? I know we can't really avoid all animal suffering but not owning a pet that eats meat seems like an easy way to cut back on the cruelty by a pretty large amount. I was thinking about this when I was feeding my grandmothers cats cans of meat and realized the bastards eat more meat than I do.

That is hilarious xD
Meat-eating is a necessary part of life-sustenance, especially for animals that are not omnivores like we are, so it can't be helped.

And you call yourself an agnostic. Bye!
Subutai
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8/10/2013 1:07:13 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/10/2013 2:26:18 AM, kogline wrote:
you have an obligate carnivore for a pet? I know we can't really avoid all animal suffering but not owning a pet that eats meat seems like an easy way to cut back on the cruelty by a pretty large amount. I was thinking about this when I was feeding my grandmothers cats cans of meat and realized the bastards eat more meat than I do.

Cats, unlike humans, require meat for proper function. While it may be morally questionable for humans to eat meat, you can't deny that, unless your standard of what is "moral" is very tough, that something that is necessary for survival is not inherently "immoral". Carnivorous animals kill and eat millions of other animals every day. Simply getting rid of your cat wouldn't be solving anything.
I'm becoming less defined as days go by, fading away, and well you might say, I'm losing focus, kinda drifting into the abstract in terms of how I see myself.
Beginner
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8/10/2013 1:49:02 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/10/2013 1:07:13 PM, Subutai wrote:
At 8/10/2013 2:26:18 AM, kogline wrote:
you have an obligate carnivore for a pet? I know we can't really avoid all animal suffering but not owning a pet that eats meat seems like an easy way to cut back on the cruelty by a pretty large amount. I was thinking about this when I was feeding my grandmothers cats cans of meat and realized the bastards eat more meat than I do.

Cats, unlike humans, require meat for proper function. While it may be morally questionable for humans to eat meat, you can't deny that, unless your standard of what is "moral" is very tough, that something that is necessary for survival is not inherently "immoral". Carnivorous animals kill and eat millions of other animals every day. Simply getting rid of your cat wouldn't be solving anything.

A solution to the problem would be to kill all carnivores.. oh wait..
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bladerunner060
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8/10/2013 1:58:59 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/10/2013 2:26:18 AM, kogline wrote:
you have an obligate carnivore for a pet? I know we can't really avoid all animal suffering but not owning a pet that eats meat seems like an easy way to cut back on the cruelty by a pretty large amount. I was thinking about this when I was feeding my grandmothers cats cans of meat and realized the bastards eat more meat than I do.

A similar question could be asked about if you have kids... in either case, yes, YOU can be vegan even if you're feeding someone else meat.
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Beginner
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8/10/2013 2:22:25 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/10/2013 11:06:15 AM, AnDoctuir wrote:
At 8/10/2013 3:46:11 AM, Beginner wrote:
At 8/10/2013 2:26:18 AM, kogline wrote:
you have an obligate carnivore for a pet? I know we can't really avoid all animal suffering but not owning a pet that eats meat seems like an easy way to cut back on the cruelty by a pretty large amount. I was thinking about this when I was feeding my grandmothers cats cans of meat and realized the bastards eat more meat than I do.

That is hilarious xD
Meat-eating is a necessary part of life-sustenance, especially for animals that are not omnivores like we are, so it can't be helped.

And you call yourself an agnostic. Bye!
What does my response have to do with religious ideology? I didn't see the connection. :P
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synestri
Posts: 2
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8/10/2013 3:25:59 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/10/2013 2:26:18 AM, kogline wrote:
you have an obligate carnivore for a pet? I know we can't really avoid all animal suffering but not owning a pet that eats meat seems like an easy way to cut back on the cruelty by a pretty large amount. I was thinking about this when I was feeding my grandmothers cats cans of meat and realized the bastards eat more meat than I do.

If you yourself don't eat meat or dairy, then you're a vegan. It's actually an unhealthy practice to try to covert pets to the same though. Cats aren't designed for it at all, really. Dogs tend to fare a little better, but a lot of the time it's a bit too risky to give it a shot.

If it helps, the meat used for pet foods tends to be byproducts that humans can't consume. So you could say that by having a carnivorous pet and keeping it on a healthy diet, you're preventing the waste of an animal that's already been sacrificed for human needs and you're dedicated to raising your pet in a healthy and safe way. It shows just a little bit more honour towards the animals that are killed for food, you know?
kogline
Posts: 134
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8/10/2013 6:21:03 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
While it may be morally questionable for humans to eat meat, you can't deny that, unless your standard of what is "moral" is very tough, that something that is necessary for survival is not inherently "immoral". Carnivorous animals kill and eat millions of other animals every day. Simply getting rid of your cat wouldn't be solving anything.

but why choose cat then when there are plenty of veggie companions to choose from?
if state farm has perfected teleportation technology why do they still sell car insurance?
kogline
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8/10/2013 6:24:24 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/10/2013 3:25:59 PM, synestri wrote:
At 8/10/2013 2:26:18 AM, kogline wrote:
you have an obligate carnivore for a pet? I know we can't really avoid all animal suffering but not owning a pet that eats meat seems like an easy way to cut back on the cruelty by a pretty large amount. I was thinking about this when I was feeding my grandmothers cats cans of meat and realized the bastards eat more meat than I do.

If you yourself don't eat meat or dairy, then you're a vegan.

don't forget non diet animal products. supposed to avoid leather/wool/silk/down as well.

It's actually an unhealthy practice to try to covert pets to the same though. Cats aren't designed for it at all, really. Dogs tend to fare a little better, but a lot of the time it's a bit too risky to give it a shot.

exactly so why even choose a companion that is going to require alot of meat?


If it helps, the meat used for pet foods tends to be byproducts that humans can't consume. So you could say that by having a carnivorous pet and keeping it on a healthy diet, you're preventing the waste of an animal that's already been sacrificed for human needs and you're dedicated to raising your pet in a healthy and safe way. It shows just a little bit more honour towards the animals that are killed for food, you know?

I don't think the animal feels honored after what it went through, and by buying the waste product you are subsidizing the meat industry. If they couldn't sell it the cost would be shifted onto the human consumers lowering demand and/or making it more difficult to produce meat.
if state farm has perfected teleportation technology why do they still sell car insurance?
AnDoctuir
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8/10/2013 6:54:40 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/10/2013 2:22:25 PM, Beginner wrote:
At 8/10/2013 11:06:15 AM, AnDoctuir wrote:
At 8/10/2013 3:46:11 AM, Beginner wrote:
At 8/10/2013 2:26:18 AM, kogline wrote:
you have an obligate carnivore for a pet? I know we can't really avoid all animal suffering but not owning a pet that eats meat seems like an easy way to cut back on the cruelty by a pretty large amount. I was thinking about this when I was feeding my grandmothers cats cans of meat and realized the bastards eat more meat than I do.

That is hilarious xD
Meat-eating is a necessary part of life-sustenance, especially for animals that are not omnivores like we are, so it can't be helped.

And you call yourself an agnostic. Bye!
What does my response have to do with religious ideology? I didn't see the connection. :P

Have you ever heard that Eve's eating the apple in the Garden of Eden was actually to symbolize her partaking in the consumption of animal flesh? And then the reason being might be sensibly declared as fear, I think, her less powerful than Adam but more so than the animals and so indulging in power to feel powerful. Perhaps it is all but delusion, I mean?
vbaculum
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8/10/2013 7:02:26 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/10/2013 2:26:18 AM, kogline wrote:
you have an obligate carnivore for a pet? I know we can't really avoid all animal suffering but not owning a pet that eats meat seems like an easy way to cut back on the cruelty by a pretty large amount. I was thinking about this when I was feeding my grandmothers cats cans of meat and realized the bastards eat more meat than I do.

You can buy cat food made from mollusk (http://www.peta.org...). This would appear to be the more humane option.

I don't know if that disqualifies you from the label "vegan", but I don't think it matters. What matters is causing less cruelty to animals.
"If you claim to value nonviolence and you consume animal products, you need to rethink your position on nonviolence." - Gary Francione

THE WORLD IS VEGAN! If you want it
vbaculum
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8/10/2013 7:12:17 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/10/2013 3:46:11 AM, Beginner wrote:
At 8/10/2013 2:26:18 AM, kogline wrote:
you have an obligate carnivore for a pet? I know we can't really avoid all animal suffering but not owning a pet that eats meat seems like an easy way to cut back on the cruelty by a pretty large amount. I was thinking about this when I was feeding my grandmothers cats cans of meat and realized the bastards eat more meat than I do.

That is hilarious xD
Meat-eating is a necessary part of life-sustenance, especially for animals that are not omnivores like we are, so it can't be helped.


Well-planned vegan and other types of vegetarian diets are appropriate for all stages of the life-cycle including during pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, and adolescence. Vegetarian diets offer a number of nutritional benefits including lower levels of saturated fat, cholesterol, and animal protein as well as higher levels of carbohydrates, fibre, magnesium, potassium, folate, antioxidants such as vitamins C and E, and phytochemicals.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...
"If you claim to value nonviolence and you consume animal products, you need to rethink your position on nonviolence." - Gary Francione

THE WORLD IS VEGAN! If you want it
Beginner
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8/10/2013 7:50:03 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/10/2013 6:54:40 PM, AnDoctuir wrote:
At 8/10/2013 2:22:25 PM, Beginner wrote:
At 8/10/2013 11:06:15 AM, AnDoctuir wrote:
At 8/10/2013 3:46:11 AM, Beginner wrote:
At 8/10/2013 2:26:18 AM, kogline wrote:
you have an obligate carnivore for a pet? I know we can't really avoid all animal suffering but not owning a pet that eats meat seems like an easy way to cut back on the cruelty by a pretty large amount. I was thinking about this when I was feeding my grandmothers cats cans of meat and realized the bastards eat more meat than I do.

That is hilarious xD
Meat-eating is a necessary part of life-sustenance, especially for animals that are not omnivores like we are, so it can't be helped.

And you call yourself an agnostic. Bye!
What does my response have to do with religious ideology? I didn't see the connection. :P

Have you ever heard that Eve's eating the apple in the Garden of Eden was actually to symbolize her partaking in the consumption of animal flesh? And then the reason being might be sensibly declared as fear, I think, her less powerful than Adam but more so than the animals and so indulging in power to feel powerful. Perhaps it is all but delusion, I mean?

I'm an agnostic Buddhist.. this does not apply to me xD
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synestri
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8/10/2013 10:49:48 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/10/2013 6:24:24 PM, kogline wrote:
At 8/10/2013 3:25:59 PM, synestri wrote:
At 8/10/2013 2:26:18 AM, kogline wrote:
you have an obligate carnivore for a pet? I know we can't really avoid all animal suffering but not owning a pet that eats meat seems like an easy way to cut back on the cruelty by a pretty large amount. I was thinking about this when I was feeding my grandmothers cats cans of meat and realized the bastards eat more meat than I do.

If you yourself don't eat meat or dairy, then you're a vegan.

don't forget non diet animal products. supposed to avoid leather/wool/silk/down as well.

True. I didn't know as much about the last part of it, so I thank you for informing me.

It's actually an unhealthy practice to try to covert pets to the same though. Cats aren't designed for it at all, really. Dogs tend to fare a little better, but a lot of the time it's a bit too risky to give it a shot.

exactly so why even choose a companion that is going to require alot of meat?

It comes down to personal preference for the most part. I imagine it has to do with the fact that the animals that seem to be in the most jeopardy in the present time seem to be the carnivores like cats and dogs. There are plenty of herbivores you can have as pets, but they tend to be the ones you don't hear as much about when it comes to problems such as mills or overcrowding in shelters. Bear in mind though, that some herbivores still require a certain amount of protein in their diets, although I think there are alternative means that work well. However, this is kind of getting into adopting a pet versus buying one from a store/breeder. That's a bird of a different feather.

If it helps, the meat used for pet foods tends to be byproducts that humans can't consume. So you could say that by having a carnivorous pet and keeping it on a healthy diet, you're preventing the waste of an animal that's already been sacrificed for human needs and you're dedicated to raising your pet in a healthy and safe way. It shows just a little bit more honour towards the animals that are killed for food, you know?

I don't think the animal feels honored after what it went through, and by buying the waste product you are subsidizing the meat industry. If they couldn't sell it the cost would be shifted onto the human consumers lowering demand and/or making it more difficult to produce meat.

I don't mean it in a literal sense of how the animal feels more as how we should be respecting them. It's a terrible thing to take a life, and I have no doubt that to whatever degree, there was suffering involved.

The way I see it is that we have to look at things in perspective to the natural life cycle. In the wild, when an animal passes on, all parts of it go back into the environment around it. Others consume the whole creature for the sake of survival of both themselves and the next generation. Even squirrels break down the bones, which then in turn become fertilizer for the plants in the area. There is no such thing as waste in nature.

What we do however, is we put an animal through terrible pain to kill it and take only the parts of it that interest our needs. The rest is burned or tossed in a dump. Then we just move on to the next one and continue the process. It's a waste, and a disgusting one at that. The death of an animal, if it's natural or otherwise, should be in the interest of many different species, as it is in nature. It should not be solely to meet the needs of an individual race. It's the difference between gluttony and survival.

From an economics standpoint however, you have an excellent point. The problem lies in the fact that this is food for pets that we're examining. They have to eat meat somehow. If we don't use the parts that only they consume, it means that they'll have to eat the same quality of meat that humans have. Would that not mean that more animals would be slaughtered to meet with this demand as well? I don't think many people would be interested in letting their pets starve, which in itself is inhumane.
bossyburrito
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8/10/2013 11:27:14 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
If you choose to refrain from eating meat for the reason that it's unethical, but yet you willingly give your pet meat, you're a hypocrite who can't follow your own principles. The fact that the pet would die without meat doesn't matter. If you were consistent, you would keep a pet that did not need meat. You would think that carnivores are horrible, and that they don't deserve to be fed by those who have the capacity for informed choices.
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kogline
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8/11/2013 1:21:11 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/10/2013 7:02:26 PM, vbaculum wrote:

You can buy cat food made from mollusk (http://www.peta.org...). This would appear to be the more humane option.

I don't know if that disqualifies you from the label "vegan", but I don't think it matters. What matters is causing less cruelty to animals.

100% right, the only reason to bring up the word is to maybe get vegans to think about it, I think not owning a carnivorous pet would be a great way to cause less cruelty. I don"t refer to myself as vegan(except occasionally for convenience) because I will eat animal products that are on there way to the trash anyway, as well as bivalves such as oysters like you mentioned above for the catfood. (though since deciding to include bivalves after reading some stuff I still haven"t had any, I"m interested in your take vbac on whether it is an ethical choice for someone who wants to reduce suffering.)
if state farm has perfected teleportation technology why do they still sell car insurance?
bladerunner060
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8/11/2013 12:05:15 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/10/2013 11:27:14 PM, bossyburrito wrote:
If you choose to refrain from eating meat for the reason that it's unethical, but yet you willingly give your pet meat, you're a hypocrite who can't follow your own principles.

Well that's a broad statement without a basis in fact. There are many reasons eating might might be considered "unethical", not all of them require you to impose your morals on your pet.

By that standard if you refrain from rape for the reason that it's unethical, but yet don't break up 2 dogs humping, you're a hypocrite who can't follow your own principles.

The fact that the pet would die without meat doesn't matter.
It actually does.

If you were consistent, you would keep a pet that did not need meat.
Not necessarily.

You would think that carnivores are horrible, and that they don't deserve to be fed by those who have the capacity for informed choices.

Does not follow whatsoever, and comes from a bigoted concept of vegans.
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vbaculum
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8/12/2013 12:56:11 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/11/2013 1:21:11 AM, kogline wrote:
At 8/10/2013 7:02:26 PM, vbaculum wrote:

You can buy cat food made from mollusk (http://www.peta.org...). This would appear to be the more humane option.

I don't know if that disqualifies you from the label "vegan", but I don't think it matters. What matters is causing less cruelty to animals.

100% right, the only reason to bring up the word is to maybe get vegans to think about it, I think not owning a carnivorous pet would be a great way to cause less cruelty. I don"t refer to myself as vegan(except occasionally for convenience) because I will eat animal products that are on there way to the trash anyway, as well as bivalves such as oysters like you mentioned above for the catfood. (though since deciding to include bivalves after reading some stuff I still haven"t had any, I"m interested in your take vbac on whether it is an ethical choice for someone who wants to reduce suffering.)

Eating animal products destined for trash, per se, produces no harm. But usually there are other factors to consider.

Since ethically motivated veganism is essentialy a boycott (an indefinite boycott) it may be useful to illustrate this point by analogy with another boycott: Lets say you decided to join a boycott against Apple because their Chinese supplier of iPhones, Foxconn, abuses their employees. So you buy no Apple products. But your friend tells you he is going to throw away his iPhone. You tell him you'll take it since he is just going to throw it away.

In this case you are still boycotting Apple products because you didn't pay money to Apple. However, I think your periodic use of the iPhone would undermine and trivialize your objection to Apple's abusive labor practices. And I think the same think may apply to eating animal products destined for the trash.

As far as bivalves go, I haven't studied these organisms enough to have a very good opinion on the ethics of eating them. The fact that Peter Singer has vacillated on this issue over the years sort of proves that it's a tough one. For my part, it's easy enough for me to avoid them, but to feed a carnivorous pet bivalves seems infinitly more humane than feeding them cow and chicken biproducts which subsidizes factory farms and slaughterhouses.
"If you claim to value nonviolence and you consume animal products, you need to rethink your position on nonviolence." - Gary Francione

THE WORLD IS VEGAN! If you want it
kogline
Posts: 134
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8/12/2013 1:50:42 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/12/2013 12:56:11 PM, vbaculum wrote:


Eating animal products destined for trash, per se, produces no harm. But usually there are other factors to consider.

Since ethically motivated veganism is essentialy a boycott (an indefinite boycott) it may be useful to illustrate this point by analogy with another boycott: Lets say you decided to join a boycott against Apple because their Chinese supplier of iPhones, Foxconn, abuses their employees. So you buy no Apple products. But your friend tells you he is going to throw away his iPhone. You tell him you'll take it since he is just going to throw it away.

In this case you are still boycotting Apple products because you didn't pay money to Apple. However, I think your periodic use of the iPhone would undermine and trivialize your objection to Apple's abusive labor practices. And I think the same think may apply to eating animal products destined for the trash.


hmm, iow my resolve to not buy meat would be weakened if the free supply ran dry. It's is possible, however if I am craving it a quick google search of farm practices does a pretty good job of getting rid of it. The hard part is working at a pizza place and having to smell your former favorite food all night, I actually had some for the first time in 2-3 weeks. I was bussing a table and this family left like four slices of perfect cheese pizza and on my way to the trash I snagged a plastic sandwich bag and when no one was looking took it out to my truck and ate it on my next delivery. I think a bigger concern with this is not that I'll break down and order a pizza if no one leaves any behind for a while, but that it makes it harder for my taste buds to adjust to my new food.
Also another reason I think that it is a good practice is that there really isn't any cruelty free food right now animals get torn up by the combine when grain is being harvested and I personally saw snakes and mice drown in the river at the tomato factory I worked at for a while, so if I throw that pizza away and go home and have some spaghetti and tomato sauce more suffering has been caused than if I had gotten those calories from product going to the trash.

As far as bivalves go, I haven't studied these organisms enough to have a very good opinion on the ethics of eating them. The fact that Peter Singer has vacillated on this issue over the years sort of proves that it's a tough one. For my part, it's easy enough for me to avoid them, but to feed a carnivorous pet bivalves seems infinitly more humane than feeding them cow and chicken biproducts which subsidizes factory farms and slaughterhouses.

I haven't got to that part of AL and I think I have the edition where he says maybe not so I'll see what he has to say. I've heard that if you get farmed there is little collateral damage in terms of sentient animals being caught in the harvesting like with grains and veggies, probably can't say the same for ocean raised. That being said I still haven't gone out and bought any. I don't really see myself doing it either, maybe if i'm at a restaurant with limited veggie options?
if state farm has perfected teleportation technology why do they still sell car insurance?
wiploc
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8/12/2013 2:20:45 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/10/2013 2:26:18 AM, kogline wrote:
Should you be able to call yourself vegan if you have an obligate carnivore for a pet?

You can call yourself bipedal even if you ride a horse. You can call yourself chaste even if your spouse screws around. You can can call yourself an air breather even if you host an anaerobic Trichinella infection.
vbaculum
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8/12/2013 3:51:33 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/12/2013 1:50:42 PM, kogline wrote:
At 8/12/2013 12:56:11 PM, vbaculum wrote:


Eating animal products destined for trash, per se, produces no harm. But usually there are other factors to consider.

Since ethically motivated veganism is essentialy a boycott (an indefinite boycott) it may be useful to illustrate this point by analogy with another boycott: Lets say you decided to join a boycott against Apple because their Chinese supplier of iPhones, Foxconn, abuses their employees. So you buy no Apple products. But your friend tells you he is going to throw away his iPhone. You tell him you'll take it since he is just going to throw it away.

In this case you are still boycotting Apple products because you didn't pay money to Apple. However, I think your periodic use of the iPhone would undermine and trivialize your objection to Apple's abusive labor practices. And I think the same think may apply to eating animal products destined for the trash.


hmm, iow my resolve to not buy meat would be weakened if the free supply ran dry. It's is possible, however if I am craving it a quick google search of farm practices does a pretty good job of getting rid of it. The hard part is working at a pizza place and having to smell your former favorite food all night, I actually had some for the first time in 2-3 weeks. I was bussing a table and this family left like four slices of perfect cheese pizza and on my way to the trash I snagged a plastic sandwich bag and when no one was looking took it out to my truck and ate it on my next delivery. I think a bigger concern with this is not that I'll break down and order a pizza if no one leaves any behind for a while, but that it makes it harder for my taste buds to adjust to my new food.

Working on veganism while working at a pizza place is true heroism, LOL. But I agree that watching videos or reading about farming is the best way to strengthen resolve.

Also another reason I think that it is a good practice is that there really isn't any cruelty free food right now animals get torn up by the combine when grain is being harvested and I personally saw snakes and mice drown in the river at the tomato factory I worked at for a while, so if I throw that pizza away and go home and have some spaghetti and tomato sauce more suffering has been caused than if I had gotten those calories from product going to the trash.

Yes, I see what you're saying - it's quite reasonable.

One point to make about the suffering that plant agriculure cause is that, eating animal products contributes to plant agriculture. For example, cows are feed massive amounts of wheat, corn and soy. But I understand that that may not be relevent to your unique situation.



As far as bivalves go, I haven't studied these organisms enough to have a very good opinion on the ethics of eating them. The fact that Peter Singer has vacillated on this issue over the years sort of proves that it's a tough one. For my part, it's easy enough for me to avoid them, but to feed a carnivorous pet bivalves seems infinitly more humane than feeding them cow and chicken biproducts which subsidizes factory farms and slaughterhouses.

I haven't got to that part of AL and I think I have the edition where he says maybe not so I'll see what he has to say. I've heard that if you get farmed there is little collateral damage in terms of sentient animals being caught in the harvesting like with grains and veggies, probably can't say the same for ocean raised. That being said I still haven't gone out and bought any. I don't really see myself doing it either, maybe if i'm at a restaurant with limited veggie options?

Yeah. Probably a good back up plan if you find yourself at a Red Lobster.
"If you claim to value nonviolence and you consume animal products, you need to rethink your position on nonviolence." - Gary Francione

THE WORLD IS VEGAN! If you want it
vbaculum
Posts: 1,274
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8/12/2013 3:57:33 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
By the way, did you see the recent debate on "freeganism"? You might find some of it interesting.

http://www.debate.org...
"If you claim to value nonviolence and you consume animal products, you need to rethink your position on nonviolence." - Gary Francione

THE WORLD IS VEGAN! If you want it
kogline
Posts: 134
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8/12/2013 8:19:30 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/12/2013 3:57:33 PM, vbaculum wrote:
By the way, did you see the recent debate on "freeganism"? You might find some of it interesting.

http://www.debate.org...

interesting topic as I am somewhat inclined to agree with pro, although I wish it would have focused more on the various consequences of each position and less quibbling over words and the resolution. I might send that guy a message and see if he wants to do the same debate with me, to see if I can defend my desire to not eat out of a trash can. It is difficult because if I'm not willing to do something uncomfortable for the greater good then can I ask people to give up meat and cheese? At the very least though I think it would be wise for vegan(ish) people to adopt some freegan principles, if you see a leather couch in someones yard for free I think it would be better than to send it to the dump and buy a vegan approved couch. Another good start which isn't freegan is to buy stuff used, coincidentally this laptop was bought on ebay but this was before my utilitarianism and was more of an economic decision. This would still be participating in the economy but would do less harm than buying a new laptop from apple or whoever. I'm gonna message pro though.
if state farm has perfected teleportation technology why do they still sell car insurance?
kogline
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8/12/2013 8:25:41 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/12/2013 3:51:33 PM, vbaculum wrote:

Working on veganism while working at a pizza place is true heroism, LOL.


Oh and thanks lol, yea on my days off I think veganism is alot easier than I thought it was going to be but when I get a good whiff of that stuff at work I feel like those sharks from finding nemo. I haven't ordered any though since making the switch luckily we have a pretty decent salad bar there.
if state farm has perfected teleportation technology why do they still sell car insurance?
kogline
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8/12/2013 8:35:05 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
he's not taking messages or comments so I just challenged him to the same debate, hasn't been online in three days and says he changes accounts often so we'll see.
if state farm has perfected teleportation technology why do they still sell car insurance?
bossyburrito
Posts: 14,075
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8/13/2013 1:29:03 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/11/2013 12:05:15 PM, bladerunner060 wrote:
Can you give me the reasons that you think account for why vegans don't eat meat?
#UnbanTheMadman

"Some will sell their dreams for small desires
Or lose the race to rats
Get caught in ticking traps
And start to dream of somewhere
To relax their restless flight
Somewhere out of a memory of lighted streets on quiet nights..."

~ Rush
DakotaKrafick
Posts: 1,517
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8/13/2013 10:48:59 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/10/2013 11:27:14 PM, bossyburrito wrote:
If you choose to refrain from eating meat for the reason that it's unethical, but yet you willingly give your pet meat, you're a hypocrite who can't follow your own principles. The fact that the pet would die without meat doesn't matter. If you were consistent, you would keep a pet that did not need meat. You would think that carnivores are horrible, and that they don't deserve to be fed by those who have the capacity for informed choices.

That's pretty harsh, thinking carnivores are horrible and don't deserve to live?
bossyburrito
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8/13/2013 11:11:02 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/13/2013 10:48:59 AM, DakotaKrafick wrote:
At 8/10/2013 11:27:14 PM, bossyburrito wrote:
If you choose to refrain from eating meat for the reason that it's unethical, but yet you willingly give your pet meat, you're a hypocrite who can't follow your own principles. The fact that the pet would die without meat doesn't matter. If you were consistent, you would keep a pet that did not need meat. You would think that carnivores are horrible, and that they don't deserve to be fed by those who have the capacity for informed choices.

That's pretty harsh, thinking carnivores are horrible and don't deserve to live?

I agree.
#UnbanTheMadman

"Some will sell their dreams for small desires
Or lose the race to rats
Get caught in ticking traps
And start to dream of somewhere
To relax their restless flight
Somewhere out of a memory of lighted streets on quiet nights..."

~ Rush