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Rant about death..

sdavio
Posts: 1,798
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9/6/2013 1:30:48 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Energy cannot come to exist from nowhere, nor can it stop existing. Therefore, the universe is made up of a certain amount (infinite or finite) of elements (energies) which are always the same, and interact with each-other. Because of cause and effect, everything that happens to an energy is a result of something which happened to another energy, and that action affects yet another energy. It must effect another energy because if it effected nothing that would be an energy ceasing to exist, which cannot happen. This means that every action from one energy effects every other energy in the universe, and is the result of the actions of every other energy in the universe. It is impossible for one of the actions which did happen to 'change,' 'be taken away,' etc.

'Consciousness' is a term, created for communication's sake rather than accuracy, as all terms are; for a selected amount of these interactions. Every so often, all of the atoms in our body have been exchanged for new atoms. The new atoms come from different places - from the food we eat, things we touch, etc. The old ones go onto things we touch, hairs cut off, etc. The concept of 'me' is really the name for whatever atoms have formed into a certain grouping. An atom in some food which you will one day eat is not yet 'you' because time hasn't progressed to where it fulfils the arbitrary limit of the word 'you.'

When we think of ourselves, we think of one continuous being, but one which has a defined 'beginning' and 'end.' If someone said you could 'die,' but have a robot built which would have the same memories as you and would live longer / forever, you probably would not want that. However, because all your atoms change, this happens all the time without you knowing - the 'current you' is exchanged for a new being which is only the same in that it has similar memories. Any part of a person can, individually, be changed, while the person will still consider 'themselves' to be 'themselves.' They can even lose all of their memories in an accident and still be considered the same person. This is because the idea of 'individual' is built only of assumptions and less-than-perfect equivocations that people make. There is no one self but only many energies which all interact and never cease to exist. The fact that a line can be drawn around some of them and given a name doesn't make the line 'important' because the line doesn't exist, it's just the result of an imprecise way of looking at things.

When you talk to someone and tell them an idea you had, you could say that that idea, which came from you (but really you got from somewhere else as well,) is 'you,' and that person has adopted, or became, part of you, and that part will continue to 'live' even if you die for as long as that other person lives. So it's not true that 'you' are your ideas and emotions. Even if you die, the ideas which you would have had still exist - the factors that would have lead to those ideas had you been alive will still exist, and will play out the only way they could have. The word 'dead' is contradictory to reality; we accept it for energies - dead means either ceasing to exist or ceasing to be 'animated' (not moving) but these are both contradictory to the rules about energy.. energies cannot cease to exist, and everything must always be animated because of cause and effect. Any group of energies is no different - the idea of the grouping is just the result of being imprecise. At the edges of any definition of a group we find not a defined line but a curve - in which we usually just randomly / arbitrarily choose a line to draw within that.
"Logic is the money of the mind." - Karl Marx
sdavio
Posts: 1,798
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9/6/2013 1:31:59 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
My point being that maybe death is not some binary thing but actually just what happens when the elements that make up a person get spread too far apart to keep track of..
"Logic is the money of the mind." - Karl Marx
sdavio
Posts: 1,798
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9/6/2013 2:26:18 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/6/2013 1:54:15 AM, AnDoctuir wrote:
Yeah, sure, but maybe there's a God and souls and stuff, too.

I think maybe things like that are human ways to interpret these ideas.. like 'God', showing that life is infinite. I don't see the need for why it should be an external guy though, who is applying stuff to reality from the outside.. What function does that add?

It seems like the same duality thing.. separating 'me' from 'my brain' / 'my body'.. and separating 'God', as the meaning and infinite stuff about the universe, separate from the universe itself..
"Logic is the money of the mind." - Karl Marx
AnDoctuir
Posts: 11,060
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9/6/2013 2:29:19 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/6/2013 2:26:18 AM, sdavio wrote:
At 9/6/2013 1:54:15 AM, AnDoctuir wrote:
Yeah, sure, but maybe there's a God and souls and stuff, too.

I think maybe things like that are human ways to interpret these ideas.. like 'God', showing that life is infinite. I don't see the need for why it should be an external guy though, who is applying stuff to reality from the outside.. What function does that add?

And what are you? An alien?

It seems like the same duality thing.. separating 'me' from 'my brain' / 'my body'.. and separating 'God', as the meaning and infinite stuff about the universe, separate from the universe itself..

Yeah, but maybe your mind lives on, dude - maybe that's what a soul is.
sdavio
Posts: 1,798
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9/6/2013 2:39:51 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/6/2013 2:29:19 AM, AnDoctuir wrote:
At 9/6/2013 2:26:18 AM, sdavio wrote:
At 9/6/2013 1:54:15 AM, AnDoctuir wrote:
Yeah, sure, but maybe there's a God and souls and stuff, too.

I think maybe things like that are human ways to interpret these ideas.. like 'God', showing that life is infinite. I don't see the need for why it should be an external guy though, who is applying stuff to reality from the outside.. What function does that add?

And what are you? An alien?

A part of the universe.. both caused by and effecting everything else in the universe. Hence 'everything is one.' As contrasted with the duality most people hold; me/my body, god/the universe.. which is what causes fear of death.

It seems like the same duality thing.. separating 'me' from 'my brain' / 'my body'.. and separating 'God', as the meaning and infinite stuff about the universe, separate from the universe itself..

Yeah, but maybe your mind lives on, dude - maybe that's what a soul is.

But your mind is just a part of you.. not some separate thing. Just like every other part of you is also you. And of course it lives on.. reality lives on and I think consciousness is basically just an angle of reality.
"Logic is the money of the mind." - Karl Marx
sdavio
Posts: 1,798
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9/6/2013 2:54:29 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
The spiritual stuff is all duality I think, or at least most of it is. Instead of telling people to 'find God' they should be telling people that they are God. Buddhism seems like the only one that does that. Oh, and Scientology maybe.
"Logic is the money of the mind." - Karl Marx
Sidewalker
Posts: 3,713
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9/6/2013 5:18:32 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/6/2013 2:54:29 AM, sdavio wrote:
The spiritual stuff is all duality I think, or at least most of it is. Instead of telling people to 'find God' they should be telling people that they are God. Buddhism seems like the only one that does that. Oh, and Scientology maybe.

Hinduism does, and 2000 years ago there was a Jewish Rabbi named Jesus that made statements to that effect.
"It is one of the commonest of mistakes to consider that the limit of our power of perception is also the limit of all there is to perceive." " C. W. Leadbeater
sdavio
Posts: 1,798
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9/6/2013 5:30:12 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/6/2013 5:18:32 AM, Sidewalker wrote:
At 9/6/2013 2:54:29 AM, sdavio wrote:
The spiritual stuff is all duality I think, or at least most of it is. Instead of telling people to 'find God' they should be telling people that they are God. Buddhism seems like the only one that does that. Oh, and Scientology maybe.

Hinduism does, and 2000 years ago there was a Jewish Rabbi named Jesus that made statements to that effect.

They teach that there is no entity called 'God' and that God is the name for the system which we're all in? Then why include stuff like praying and heaven? In fact the whole 'God' idea is contrary to that concept, if referenced as a 'thing' or 'entity' that you can interact with..
"Logic is the money of the mind." - Karl Marx
Sidewalker
Posts: 3,713
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9/6/2013 8:54:45 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/6/2013 5:30:12 AM, sdavio wrote:
At 9/6/2013 5:18:32 AM, Sidewalker wrote:
At 9/6/2013 2:54:29 AM, sdavio wrote:
The spiritual stuff is all duality I think, or at least most of it is. Instead of telling people to 'find God' they should be telling people that they are God. Buddhism seems like the only one that does that. Oh, and Scientology maybe.

Hinduism does, and 2000 years ago there was a Jewish Rabbi named Jesus that made statements to that effect.

They teach that there is no entity called 'God' and that God is the name for the system which we're all in? Then why include stuff like praying and heaven? In fact the whole 'God' idea is contrary to that concept, if referenced as a 'thing' or 'entity' that you can interact with..

As far as I can tell all religions consider this division of reality into its subjective and objective bases to be fundamental to understanding the nature of Man. They all seem me to be contending that we are an essential part of the ultimate reality and include a "knowing" that the very existence of objective knowledge requires an illusory or false distinction between knowing subject and reality known. It is simply because of the fact that we are a "symbolic" animal that all faiths must explain this separation in symbolic or allegorical terms, by the use of metaphor, and it is why it always seems to be primary to their metaphysical constructions and their definition of human nature.

The first thing all three of the great monotheistic religions, Judaism, Islam, and Christianity do is explain the nature of the universe and the nature of man "in the beginning" and they use the metaphor of a "fall from grace" indicating that this split from the whole must be overcome to gain everlasting life. The fundamental doctrine of Christianity is the Holy Trinity, which embodies it in the metaphor of three persons, the Father, the incarnate Son who is an individual, and the Holy Ghost, understood to be the aspect of God immanent in human beings and in the world.

In Hinduism the essence of the Upanishads are that Brahman, the ultimate reality, and Atman, the individual reality, are one. One of the most important terms in Hinduism is Maya, the illusion of taking the concepts of our minds and thinking that they are reality. The very essence of Hinduism is an experience called Moksha, which is the liberation from this illusion that the individual self is separate from the whole, from Brahman.

Buddhism is based on the achievement of an "awakening" that allows the individual to pass beyond the world of our perceptions and intellectual constructs to reach the undivided world of "Acintya", the unthinkable. The Buddha was "enlightened" under the celebrated Bodhi Tree clarifying the Buddhist doctrine in the form of the "Four Noble Truths". The Four Noble Truths define the human condition as suffering and states that clinging to our incorrect point of view, called Avidya, is the cause of our suffering.

Taoism is the religion that most fundamentally addresses this theme which seems to lie at the heart of all religions. Taoists see all change as the dynamic interplay between polar opposites, the yin and the yang. The unification of opposites is the very essence of the Tao and they maintain that "The Tao that can be described in not the eternal Tao". For the Taoists the world of man is artificial and logical reasoning and moral standards are illusory.

I think all the major religions fundamentally strive to help us conceptually overcome our detachment from true reality by seeing through the illusion that separates us from reality and from each other, and transcend it in recognition of our solidarity with the whole of reality. And to do that we must allow science, religion, philosophy and art to interact with full freedom because that is what is necessary for us to be fully alive and fully human.
"It is one of the commonest of mistakes to consider that the limit of our power of perception is also the limit of all there is to perceive." " C. W. Leadbeater
sdavio
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9/7/2013 5:27:43 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/6/2013 8:54:45 PM, Sidewalker wrote:
[Text]

Interesting post, but I still don't understand why this subjective/objective dichotomy is important, nor am I convinced that it is the central theme of all or most religion.

Regardless, all experiences are objective experiences of reality in a way I think, because they are all 'objectively an experience.' Splitting reality in this way is another way that religion for the most part disturbs peace.. instead of seeing the universe as one, seeing it as two, or many. It leads to the main way people see themselves.. as a disconnected soul trapped inside their own body, which will disappear or be teleported to some other plane upon death.
"Logic is the money of the mind." - Karl Marx
Sidewalker
Posts: 3,713
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9/7/2013 9:05:40 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/7/2013 5:27:43 AM, sdavio wrote:
At 9/6/2013 8:54:45 PM, Sidewalker wrote:
[Text]

Interesting post, but I still don't understand why this subjective/objective dichotomy is important,

You are arguing against dualistic thinking but you don't think the /objective dichotomy is important?

The fact of knowledge would be unaccountable without a distinction between subject and object, knowledge requires the duality of knower and known.

nor am I convinced that it is the central theme of all or most religion.

I suppose that to be convinced, you'd need to understand it first. You are arguing against duality, you get that, right?

Regardless, all experiences are objective experiences of reality in a way I think, because they are all 'objectively an experience.

Are you arguing that there is no such thing as subjectivity?

' Splitting reality in this way is another way that religion for the most part disturbs peace.. instead of seeing the universe as one, seeing it as two, or many.

Why do you think religion is responsible for "splitting reality"? What makes you think that it is because of religion that we think of the universe in this way?

It leads to the main way people see themselves.. as a disconnected soul trapped inside their own body, which will disappear or be teleported to some other plane upon death.

What people?
"It is one of the commonest of mistakes to consider that the limit of our power of perception is also the limit of all there is to perceive." " C. W. Leadbeater