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I cannot learn philosophy like this.

Eitan_Zohar
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9/13/2013 1:43:16 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Give me a genuine, accessible way of learning philosophy that doesn't make me wade through sesquipedalian bushwa in order to focus on True Scripture, yet gives me a real, in-depth education on the ideas without being Philosophy for Dummies. I'm fvcking sick of people tossing about terms like "Neo-Hobbesian" or "Neo-Kantian" while I still, after years of contemplation and discussion, don't even even the slight fvcking clue what they mean because their books are garbage heaps that I can't glean the slightest intelligent phrase out of. No, I will not read the Leviathan, and no, I will not read the Apology of Socrates. That's not how a person learns to think and discuss logic or politics, it's how academics jerk their cum all over the faces of us poor nonliterates. I CANNOT LEARN PHILOSOPHY BECAUSE THE PURPORTED "SCHOLARS" ARE FAR MORE INTERESTED IN PARROTING THE PHILOSOPHER'S SCHIZOPHRENIC RAMBLINGS WORD FOR FVCKING WORD THAN GIVING AN CLEAR EXPLANATION OF WHAT THEY ADVOCATE WHILE THE ONES THAT DO TRY TO REACH AN UNEDUCATED AUDIENCE PRODUCE BOOKS-A-MILLION FODDER FOR ARMCHAIR PHILOSOPHERS AND SH!THOLES THAT BELIEVE THEMSELVES EDUCATED IF THEY CAN SPOUT OFF JUICY WORDS LIKE "EPISTEMOLOGY" OR "REALIZED INCLUSIVISM." WELL, I'VE HAD QUITE ENOUGH. FVCK YOU, MARCUS WEIGELT. FVCK YOU, WALTER KAUFMANN. FVCK YOU, THOMAS WEST.
"It is my ambition to say in ten sentences what others say in a whole book."
Eitan_Zohar
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9/13/2013 1:44:17 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
*don't even have the slightest fvcking clue what they mean
"It is my ambition to say in ten sentences what others say in a whole book."
Eitan_Zohar
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9/13/2013 1:53:47 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/13/2013 1:49:29 PM, Graincruncher wrote:
So, should we take it that you're finding philosophy a bit of a tough subject?

No. I just can't understand a word from the literature. Philosophy is one of my favorite subjects, I constantly contemplate the nature of time, ethics, law, political theory, etc.
"It is my ambition to say in ten sentences what others say in a whole book."
TheAntidoter
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9/13/2013 2:02:45 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/13/2013 1:58:02 PM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:
Try and get something useful out of this: http://pinkmonkey.com...

Challange accepted.
Affinity: Fire
Class: Human
Abilities: ????

Nac.

WOAH, COLORED FONT!
Graincruncher
Posts: 2,799
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9/13/2013 2:07:29 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I think the trick is to find the tougher intro books and the easier main works. I'd recommend History of Western Philosophy as a kind of reference for themes, one of the better intro books and something like Hume's Treatise, because he covers a lot of stuff and writes extremely clearly. Even after 5 years studying it - especially after - I avoid stuff like Kant, Hobbes and the rest of the incomprehensibly technical crowd. There is no need for the ideas they cover to be written so badly. Ditto a lot of the post-modern crowd, who are prone to verbosity for its own sake and trying to make simple ideas sound more profound than they necessarily are. Not all, by any means, but some of them are horribly guilty of that.

Is there any one area that you're particularly interested in? I might be able to think of something lighter on the jargon but not "X cannot be both true and false at the same time?! mindblown" stuff either.
Magic8000
Posts: 975
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9/13/2013 2:12:34 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
http://plato.stanford.edu...
http://www.informationphilosopher.com...

Those websites are geared towards laymen. I generally go to one of those to learn something about philosophy.
404 coherent debate topic not found. Please restart the debate with clear resolution.

"So Magic8000 believes Einstein was a proctologist who was persuaded by the Government and Hitler to fabricate the Theory of Relativity"- GWL-CPA
ClassicRobert
Posts: 2,487
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9/13/2013 2:15:40 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Check out Philosophy Bro. It breaks it down into bro speak, which is relatively easy to understand.
Debate me: Economic decision theory should be adjusted to include higher-order preferences for non-normative purposes http://www.debate.org...

Do you really believe that? Or not? If you believe it, you should man up and defend it in a debate. -RoyLatham

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Sidewalker
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9/13/2013 6:10:09 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/13/2013 1:43:16 PM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:
Give me a genuine, accessible way of learning philosophy that doesn't make me wade through sesquipedalian bushwa in order to focus on True Scripture, yet gives me a real, in-depth education on the ideas without being Philosophy for Dummies. I'm fvcking sick of people tossing about terms like "Neo-Hobbesian" or "Neo-Kantian" while I still, after years of contemplation and discussion, don't even even the slight fvcking clue what they mean because their books are garbage heaps that I can't glean the slightest intelligent phrase out of. No, I will not read the Leviathan, and no, I will not read the Apology of Socrates. That's not how a person learns to think and discuss logic or politics, it's how academics jerk their cum all over the faces of us poor nonliterates. I CANNOT LEARN PHILOSOPHY BECAUSE THE PURPORTED "SCHOLARS" ARE FAR MORE INTERESTED IN PARROTING THE PHILOSOPHER'S SCHIZOPHRENIC RAMBLINGS WORD FOR FVCKING WORD THAN GIVING AN CLEAR EXPLANATION OF WHAT THEY ADVOCATE WHILE THE ONES THAT DO TRY TO REACH AN UNEDUCATED AUDIENCE PRODUCE BOOKS-A-MILLION FODDER FOR ARMCHAIR PHILOSOPHERS AND SH!THOLES THAT BELIEVE THEMSELVES EDUCATED IF THEY CAN SPOUT OFF JUICY WORDS LIKE "EPISTEMOLOGY" OR "REALIZED INCLUSIVISM." WELL, I'VE HAD QUITE ENOUGH. FVCK YOU, MARCUS WEIGELT. FVCK YOU, WALTER KAUFMANN. FVCK YOU, THOMAS WEST.

Maybe philosophy just doesn't suit you, perhaps you should consider another pursuit, take a shop class, or maybe take up whittling, something like that.
"It is one of the commonest of mistakes to consider that the limit of our power of perception is also the limit of all there is to perceive." " C. W. Leadbeater
Eitan_Zohar
Posts: 2,697
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9/13/2013 6:32:27 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/13/2013 6:10:09 PM, Sidewalker wrote:
At 9/13/2013 1:43:16 PM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:
Give me a genuine, accessible way of learning philosophy that doesn't make me wade through sesquipedalian bushwa in order to focus on True Scripture, yet gives me a real, in-depth education on the ideas without being Philosophy for Dummies. I'm fvcking sick of people tossing about terms like "Neo-Hobbesian" or "Neo-Kantian" while I still, after years of contemplation and discussion, don't even even the slight fvcking clue what they mean because their books are garbage heaps that I can't glean the slightest intelligent phrase out of. No, I will not read the Leviathan, and no, I will not read the Apology of Socrates. That's not how a person learns to think and discuss logic or politics, it's how academics jerk their cum all over the faces of us poor nonliterates. I CANNOT LEARN PHILOSOPHY BECAUSE THE PURPORTED "SCHOLARS" ARE FAR MORE INTERESTED IN PARROTING THE PHILOSOPHER'S SCHIZOPHRENIC RAMBLINGS WORD FOR FVCKING WORD THAN GIVING AN CLEAR EXPLANATION OF WHAT THEY ADVOCATE WHILE THE ONES THAT DO TRY TO REACH AN UNEDUCATED AUDIENCE PRODUCE BOOKS-A-MILLION FODDER FOR ARMCHAIR PHILOSOPHERS AND SH!THOLES THAT BELIEVE THEMSELVES EDUCATED IF THEY CAN SPOUT OFF JUICY WORDS LIKE "EPISTEMOLOGY" OR "REALIZED INCLUSIVISM." WELL, I'VE HAD QUITE ENOUGH. FVCK YOU, MARCUS WEIGELT. FVCK YOU, WALTER KAUFMANN. FVCK YOU, THOMAS WEST.

Maybe philosophy just doesn't suit you, perhaps you should consider another pursuit, take a shop class, or maybe take up whittling, something like that.

I love philosophy, you dingus.
"It is my ambition to say in ten sentences what others say in a whole book."
Polaris
Posts: 1,120
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9/13/2013 7:04:03 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/13/2013 1:43:16 PM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:
Give me a genuine, accessible way of learning philosophy that doesn't make me wade through sesquipedalian bushwa in order to focus on True Scripture, yet gives me a real, in-depth education on the ideas without being Philosophy for Dummies. I'm fvcking sick of people tossing about terms like "Neo-Hobbesian" or "Neo-Kantian" while I still, after years of contemplation and discussion, don't even even the slight fvcking clue what they mean because their books are garbage heaps that I can't glean the slightest intelligent phrase out of. No, I will not read the Leviathan, and no, I will not read the Apology of Socrates. That's not how a person learns to think and discuss logic or politics, it's how academics jerk their cum all over the faces of us poor nonliterates. I CANNOT LEARN PHILOSOPHY BECAUSE THE PURPORTED "SCHOLARS" ARE FAR MORE INTERESTED IN PARROTING THE PHILOSOPHER'S SCHIZOPHRENIC RAMBLINGS WORD FOR FVCKING WORD THAN GIVING AN CLEAR EXPLANATION OF WHAT THEY ADVOCATE WHILE THE ONES THAT DO TRY TO REACH AN UNEDUCATED AUDIENCE PRODUCE BOOKS-A-MILLION FODDER FOR ARMCHAIR PHILOSOPHERS AND SH!THOLES THAT BELIEVE THEMSELVES EDUCATED IF THEY CAN SPOUT OFF JUICY WORDS LIKE "EPISTEMOLOGY" OR "REALIZED INCLUSIVISM." WELL, I'VE HAD QUITE ENOUGH. FVCK YOU, MARCUS WEIGELT. FVCK YOU, WALTER KAUFMANN. FVCK YOU, THOMAS WEST.

Do you feel better now?
Noumena
Posts: 6,047
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9/13/2013 10:08:02 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Maybe yer just dim.
: At 5/13/2014 7:05:20 PM, Crescendo wrote:
: The difference is that the gay movement is currently pushing their will on Churches, as shown in the link to gay marriage in Denmark. Meanwhile, the Inquisition ended several centuries ago.
ClassicRobert
Posts: 2,487
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9/13/2013 10:10:54 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/13/2013 6:10:09 PM, Sidewalker wrote:


Maybe philosophy just doesn't suit you, perhaps you should consider another pursuit, take a shop class, or maybe take up whittling, something like that.

The philosopher version of "Bro, do you even lift?"
Debate me: Economic decision theory should be adjusted to include higher-order preferences for non-normative purposes http://www.debate.org...

Do you really believe that? Or not? If you believe it, you should man up and defend it in a debate. -RoyLatham

My Pet Fish is such a Douche- NiamC

It's an app to meet friends and stuff, sort of like an adult club penguin- Thett3, describing Tinder
Noumena
Posts: 6,047
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9/13/2013 10:19:52 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Lol@ can't even get through the Apology.
: At 5/13/2014 7:05:20 PM, Crescendo wrote:
: The difference is that the gay movement is currently pushing their will on Churches, as shown in the link to gay marriage in Denmark. Meanwhile, the Inquisition ended several centuries ago.
Noumena
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9/13/2013 10:26:10 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Forgive me. I've been trudging through poststructuralism/postmodernism for the last few months (Foucault, Jameson, Lyotard, etc.) and this guy is getting hung up on Hobbes and Plato. I'm just being honest. It doesn't look good for ya.
: At 5/13/2014 7:05:20 PM, Crescendo wrote:
: The difference is that the gay movement is currently pushing their will on Churches, as shown in the link to gay marriage in Denmark. Meanwhile, the Inquisition ended several centuries ago.
Eitan_Zohar
Posts: 2,697
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9/13/2013 10:39:26 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/13/2013 7:04:03 PM, Polaris wrote:
At 9/13/2013 1:43:16 PM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:
Give me a genuine, accessible way of learning philosophy that doesn't make me wade through sesquipedalian bushwa in order to focus on True Scripture, yet gives me a real, in-depth education on the ideas without being Philosophy for Dummies. I'm fvcking sick of people tossing about terms like "Neo-Hobbesian" or "Neo-Kantian" while I still, after years of contemplation and discussion, don't even even the slight fvcking clue what they mean because their books are garbage heaps that I can't glean the slightest intelligent phrase out of. No, I will not read the Leviathan, and no, I will not read the Apology of Socrates. That's not how a person learns to think and discuss logic or politics, it's how academics jerk their cum all over the faces of us poor nonliterates. I CANNOT LEARN PHILOSOPHY BECAUSE THE PURPORTED "SCHOLARS" ARE FAR MORE INTERESTED IN PARROTING THE PHILOSOPHER'S SCHIZOPHRENIC RAMBLINGS WORD FOR FVCKING WORD THAN GIVING AN CLEAR EXPLANATION OF WHAT THEY ADVOCATE WHILE THE ONES THAT DO TRY TO REACH AN UNEDUCATED AUDIENCE PRODUCE BOOKS-A-MILLION FODDER FOR ARMCHAIR PHILOSOPHERS AND SH!THOLES THAT BELIEVE THEMSELVES EDUCATED IF THEY CAN SPOUT OFF JUICY WORDS LIKE "EPISTEMOLOGY" OR "REALIZED INCLUSIVISM." WELL, I'VE HAD QUITE ENOUGH. FVCK YOU, MARCUS WEIGELT. FVCK YOU, WALTER KAUFMANN. FVCK YOU, THOMAS WEST.

Do you feel better now?

Not really. There has to be a better way to proclaim my rage than swearing like this. I would prefer a mathematically coexpressive, meta-self-descriptive and self-editing language that, as well as describing and modifying its own operations at all levels, could perfectly articulate not only qualia, but thought itself. But, hey, if I actually want to invent this language, I'm clearly fcked, as I can't get past the preface of Principia Mathematica without vomiting onto my lap.
"It is my ambition to say in ten sentences what others say in a whole book."
wrichcirw
Posts: 11,196
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9/13/2013 10:39:28 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/13/2013 1:53:47 PM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:
At 9/13/2013 1:49:29 PM, Graincruncher wrote:
So, should we take it that you're finding philosophy a bit of a tough subject?

No. I just can't understand a word from the literature. Philosophy is one of my favorite subjects, I constantly contemplate the nature of time, ethics, law, political theory, etc.

So, you like to philosophize, but you hate philosophy?
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
wrichcirw
Posts: 11,196
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9/13/2013 10:40:19 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
It really just sounds like you don't like being told what to think. I can understand that to a certain extent.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
Eitan_Zohar
Posts: 2,697
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9/13/2013 10:45:31 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/13/2013 10:26:10 PM, Noumena wrote:
Forgive me. I've been trudging through poststructuralism/postmodernism for the last few months (Foucault, Jameson, Lyotard, etc.) and this guy is getting hung up on Hobbes and Plato. I'm just being honest. It doesn't look good for ya.

Do you read the actual works? Click on the link I gave to the Apology. Is that the same translation you read?
"It is my ambition to say in ten sentences what others say in a whole book."
Eitan_Zohar
Posts: 2,697
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9/13/2013 10:47:24 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/13/2013 10:40:19 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
It really just sounds like you don't like being told what to think. I can understand that to a certain extent.

I wasn't going to respond to the initial putdown, and I'm not going to insult you back "in self-defense" in case you start peppering the thread with statements about how you are going to ignore me. Do yourself a favor and leave now.
"It is my ambition to say in ten sentences what others say in a whole book."
Noumena
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9/13/2013 10:50:04 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/13/2013 10:45:31 PM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:
At 9/13/2013 10:26:10 PM, Noumena wrote:
Forgive me. I've been trudging through poststructuralism/postmodernism for the last few months (Foucault, Jameson, Lyotard, etc.) and this guy is getting hung up on Hobbes and Plato. I'm just being honest. It doesn't look good for ya.

Do you read the actual works?

Which works? The Apology? Yeah a few times. With the exception of the Republic I've read all the Platonic dialogues several times. Those were actually the first philosophy texts I immersed myself in.

Click on the link I gave to the Apology. Is that the same translation you read?

Looks the same to me.
: At 5/13/2014 7:05:20 PM, Crescendo wrote:
: The difference is that the gay movement is currently pushing their will on Churches, as shown in the link to gay marriage in Denmark. Meanwhile, the Inquisition ended several centuries ago.
wrichcirw
Posts: 11,196
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9/13/2013 11:02:37 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/13/2013 10:47:24 PM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:
At 9/13/2013 10:40:19 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
It really just sounds like you don't like being told what to think. I can understand that to a certain extent.

I wasn't going to respond to the initial putdown, and I'm not going to insult you back "in self-defense" in case you start peppering the thread with statements about how you are going to ignore me. Do yourself a favor and leave now.

lol, how is this a putdown?
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
wrichcirw
Posts: 11,196
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9/13/2013 11:11:44 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/13/2013 10:50:04 PM, Noumena wrote:
At 9/13/2013 10:45:31 PM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:
At 9/13/2013 10:26:10 PM, Noumena wrote:
Forgive me. I've been trudging through poststructuralism/postmodernism for the last few months (Foucault, Jameson, Lyotard, etc.) and this guy is getting hung up on Hobbes and Plato. I'm just being honest. It doesn't look good for ya.

Do you read the actual works?

Which works? The Apology? Yeah a few times. With the exception of the Republic I've read all the Platonic dialogues several times. Those were actually the first philosophy texts I immersed myself in.

Click on the link I gave to the Apology. Is that the same translation you read?

Looks the same to me.

Question for you (or anyone well-read, really, as I know quite a few people here swim in this topic):

Do you recommend Plato's works as a good way to ease into philosophical works? I've read the Republic a long time ago and it did not particularly leave me thirsty for more. Recently, I've tried Thus Spoke Zarathustra and could not get through the first 20 pages without falling asleep.

Given the significance of Kant, that looks like the optimal starting point...do you agree?

Cheers.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
Eitan_Zohar
Posts: 2,697
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9/13/2013 11:26:20 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/13/2013 10:50:04 PM, Noumena wrote:
At 9/13/2013 10:45:31 PM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:
At 9/13/2013 10:26:10 PM, Noumena wrote:
Forgive me. I've been trudging through poststructuralism/postmodernism for the last few months (Foucault, Jameson, Lyotard, etc.) and this guy is getting hung up on Hobbes and Plato. I'm just being honest. It doesn't look good for ya.

Do you read the actual works?

Which works? The Apology? Yeah a few times. With the exception of the Republic I've read all the Platonic dialogues several times. Those were actually the first philosophy texts I immersed myself in.

Why? What value do you gain from realizing that atheists couldn't possibly be in cahoots with demons, since demons were the sons of Gods that the atheists would have to deny?
"It is my ambition to say in ten sentences what others say in a whole book."
Noumena
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9/14/2013 6:37:28 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/13/2013 11:11:44 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 9/13/2013 10:50:04 PM, Noumena wrote:
At 9/13/2013 10:45:31 PM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:
At 9/13/2013 10:26:10 PM, Noumena wrote:
Forgive me. I've been trudging through poststructuralism/postmodernism for the last few months (Foucault, Jameson, Lyotard, etc.) and this guy is getting hung up on Hobbes and Plato. I'm just being honest. It doesn't look good for ya.

Do you read the actual works?

Which works? The Apology? Yeah a few times. With the exception of the Republic I've read all the Platonic dialogues several times. Those were actually the first philosophy texts I immersed myself in.

Click on the link I gave to the Apology. Is that the same translation you read?

Looks the same to me.

Question for you (or anyone well-read, really, as I know quite a few people here swim in this topic):

Do you recommend Plato's works as a good way to ease into philosophical works? I've read the Republic a long time ago and it did not particularly leave me thirsty for more. Recently, I've tried Thus Spoke Zarathustra and could not get through the first 20 pages without falling asleep.

Given the significance of Kant, that looks like the optimal starting point...do you agree?

Cheers.

I'm not entirely sure. I can emphatically say NOT to start with Nietzsche or Kant because there's really no way to contextualize them (early on) + they're damn hard to read anyways. I started with Plato but it wasn't any sort of planned philosophical study. I bumbled around for three or four years before actually "finding my groove" if you will. Then again, Plato is relatively easy to read + there's not too much backstory regarding his influences (that would be absolutely necessary to understand his vantage point).
: At 5/13/2014 7:05:20 PM, Crescendo wrote:
: The difference is that the gay movement is currently pushing their will on Churches, as shown in the link to gay marriage in Denmark. Meanwhile, the Inquisition ended several centuries ago.
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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9/14/2013 7:24:52 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Whaaaa? The guy that eschews formal education is having a hard time understanding advanced concepts in a millennia old discipline? WHO WOULD HAVE THOUGHT?
drafterman
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9/14/2013 7:25:48 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
The mathematical equivalent of this post is like asking to understand calculus without having to deal with that algebra nonsense.
Eitan_Zohar
Posts: 2,697
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9/14/2013 8:58:38 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/14/2013 7:25:48 AM, drafterman wrote:
The mathematical equivalent of this post is like asking to understand calculus without having to deal with that algebra nonsense.

I'd probably enjoy Plato, but the translation of the Apology uses 500 words where 5 would do. Definitely not a productive read by any measure. I did find The Republic to be better, but I couldn't understand everything (I'm just probably overthinking the concepts). Is there a version with explanations and footnotes on each page?
"It is my ambition to say in ten sentences what others say in a whole book."