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Society expects us to be things we are not

Sahaj
Posts: 4
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9/16/2013 12:27:10 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I am in school, and every day around me i see people simply conforming to the arbitrary ideals of an unreasonable, irrational society. Boys want to play football and be seen as "jocks", regardless of whether they actually are and whether they derive any satisfaction from it, because this is what society demands. The girls want to be pretty because society has for some reason decided that girls must be physically attractive, and this is the only trait we should look for. And ones like me who choose to live by our own rules are cast aside, labelled misfits and outcasts, for the crime of wanting to be ourselves and not live by the rules and preconceptions of a social caste system. I know not why people feel they must dissolve their personalities in the quagmire of expectations, but if i were to venture a guess, i would say it is because they are afraid, afraid of what might happen if society, or at least the portion of society that is their habitat, rejects them because they do not live up to it's expectations. Or it could be because they seek acceptance no matter the cost, due to low self-esteem. Either way, I can't help but feel that this arbitrary system could not stay in power if people refused to abide by it, and it only remains in power because people allow it to, and what i don't grasp is why more people, like me, don't simply reject it's arbitrary ideals, which is the rational course of action (I am an empiricist-rationalist). I would like some input on this, to better understand this phenomenon and shed light on it's inner workings. Note : I would like a nice, civilized discussion if possible. We aren't opposing one another, just putting our viewpoints forward and developing on them and gaining new ideas and perspectives. That being said, the topic's all your's, gentlemen.
cybertron1998
Posts: 5,818
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9/16/2013 7:05:55 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/16/2013 12:27:10 PM, Sahaj wrote:
I am in school, and every day around me i see people simply conforming to the arbitrary ideals of an unreasonable, irrational society. Boys want to play football and be seen as "jocks", regardless of whether they actually are and whether they derive any satisfaction from it, because this is what society demands. The girls want to be pretty because society has for some reason decided that girls must be physically attractive, and this is the only trait we should look for. And ones like me who choose to live by our own rules are cast aside, labelled misfits and outcasts, for the crime of wanting to be ourselves and not live by the rules and preconceptions of a social caste system. I know not why people feel they must dissolve their personalities in the quagmire of expectations, but if i were to venture a guess, i would say it is because they are afraid, afraid of what might happen if society, or at least the portion of society that is their habitat, rejects them because they do not live up to it's expectations. Or it could be because they seek acceptance no matter the cost, due to low self-esteem. Either way, I can't help but feel that this arbitrary system could not stay in power if people refused to abide by it, and it only remains in power because people allow it to, and what i don't grasp is why more people, like me, don't simply reject it's arbitrary ideals, which is the rational course of action (I am an empiricist-rationalist). I would like some input on this, to better understand this phenomenon and shed light on it's inner workings. Note : I would like a nice, civilized discussion if possible. We aren't opposing one another, just putting our viewpoints forward and developing on them and gaining new ideas and perspectives. That being said, the topic's all your's, gentlemen.

yeah society is all about perfectionism. the one thing we can never accomplish: perfection
Epsilon: There are so many stories where some brave hero decides to give their life to save the day, and because of their sacrifice, the good guys win, the survivors all cheer, and everybody lives happily ever after. But the hero... never gets to see that ending. They'll never know if their sacrifice actually made a difference. They'll never know if the day was really saved. In the end, they just have to have faith.
bilding11296
Posts: 1
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9/16/2013 7:46:09 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
The problem is, humans are wired to conform. Humans are mammals and primates and most primates are social creatures. Long ago, not be accepted into a social order meant lack of food, love, and sex. So many had to conform to the rules said group established in order to fill their needs. Which is why so many people mindlessly conform to whatever society wants, they are indoctrinated at birth to conform.
The_Fool_on_the_hill
Posts: 6,071
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9/17/2013 2:38:23 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/16/2013 12:27:10 PM, Sahaj wrote:
I am in school, and every day around me i see people simply conforming to the arbitrary ideals of an unreasonable, irrational society.

The Fool: I don't think anything can really be shown to be actually arbitrary. As everything we are ignorant about appears to us as arbitrary.
You might say something like the drinking age is arbitrary, but there is usually some kind of reasoning of why it is that number, and not another.
Just as random is number not really random, in fact we can't even create random, there's probably always some reason, maybe it's not a good reason, maybe it was at one time but it's been forgotten, or doesn't apply anymore, but never really arbitrary, and not ignorance at the same time..

For when we don't know why somebody did something, or where something came from or who somebody was, we say that was random, or, that random person.

Arbitrary is a word that that all first-year university students have fun with, it's like a way to say nothing but make us sound like were in fact actually saying something.

Because what is arbitrary and I know why it's been choosen been chosen, or it's been chosen for no reason,or I'm ignorant of the reason are all the very same observation.. It's nothing either way.
So it can never really be claimed as any sort of knowledge. In fact it's usually used to oppress people to create a false position and/or strawmen of an opposition, which which could never actually in fact the true. Is there is no thing which is itself "the arbitrariness"

It's also a perfect Gap filler, for any occasion.

I don't know what's going on here? translation: Hey that's arbitrary"

I don't understand why people do this?
Therefore it must be arbitrary..

it must be because there is no actual reason and no justification.
Despite these being entities which could never actually exist, I claim to be true subjectively, Oh but I forgot about "no relation.." I always see no relation too, It is often that there IS no relation.

That there IS---> <--- NOT, a relation.

What morals? But it's not my favor" must be arbitrary"

<(8D)
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
The_Fool_on_the_hill
Posts: 6,071
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9/17/2013 3:19:16 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Sahaj: Boys want to play football and be seen as "jocks", regardless of whether they actually are and whether they derive any satisfaction from it, because this is what society demands.

The fool: Why did you pick football? Kind of sounds arbitrary..
<(89)

I don't think there exist "jocks" as an actual property, but rather as a term of reference in relation to boys who tend to be sportive. That is, they called the "jocks" because that's what the word is normally used to refer to. Just like the term bachelor is pretty much always used to refer to unmarried men. Not because they are any more or less seen, in any way but that's what people use the term " bachelor" to refer to mean.

Thus, it's not really a thing which they can "be" or not be "in itself" but rather at generalized use of the term of reference.

If the use of the term is not grounded in any way, we cannot communicate. As no one could really know what somebody means when their speaking, and then when it gets all confusing people say "must be arbitrary", or must be subjective.

This is done with morals all the time and with any terms that have a strong positive connotation. Things like knowledge, good, intelligent, truth, beautiful, justice were never really subjective originally, but rather people who are not necessarily in that group, start using the terms to refer the things they would like to be praised as well, And certain groups will not allow certain things to be called by those words,

As people start to then fight over the use of the terms, the population themselves become confused, and communication is severed, as the terms can no longer be said to have any particular meaning. And so the result is: "must be arbitrary" Or must be subjective. Not because those things which are any less true, or subjective, but rather the use of the terms to speak about them become used subjectively.

Everything becomes called intelligent, where nothing can be clearly said to be intelligent anymore.

No new intelligence has been discovered that would not already and always have been there before, but that which was previously called skills, like athletic ability, or social skills are now called athletic intelligence, or social intelligence..

Nobody will allow the other group to have any advantage on any of those claims. And so any progressive function of them becomes lost. And so people have to create new names, like "values". It would appear like values is used more often and for longer than it actually is than it is, but the old terminology is being translated over with new terminology.

It the same for negative names to like "retarded", which within then called mentally challenged, and when that gets abused negatively, they create another name, to refer them to keep getting rid of the stigma, but nothing is changing but the names..

There's nothing we can do to stop the population as a whole from changing the reference of the terms, when it is or is not in their favor. What can be said depends on what is actually said..

In fact that's also where "science" came from. It just means knowledge. And since everybody can see plainly with their eyes, "what could be seen," became called Science. In fact, The Science, AKA The knowledge, and so what do you think that does to all the other knowledge. Rubs them right out. Makes it harder to implore morality, justice, and other concepts that we know just as well, Through distorted communication..Most of us do it every day we don't even notice.
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
The_Fool_on_the_hill
Posts: 6,071
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9/17/2013 3:47:06 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Sahaj: The girls want to be pretty because society has for some reason decided that girls must be physically attractive, and this is the only trait we should look for.

The Fool: I think the society also consists of girls, In fact most of it does, the male population has always been lower, As men do jobs that are harder on the bodies, and of course war throughout all of history where it was not unlikely for males to make up less than 25% of the population in many civilizations of the past. So in the past there was always more women per men. The male population particularly young men, has always been the expendable group when it comes to moral worth, next to seniors women and children. And that is consistent throughout pretty much every society that we know, and so women had longer and healthier lives for most of humanity.

But that's not how it is taught in schools now is it?..In fact it is taught that men are bad, especially white men, and that women are always the suffering and innocent victims in all societies. Not outrightly as it would be too obvious. But this is the underlying insinuation. And most likely the reason for your claims here.

In fact most women like to be pretty, and perhaps some men as well, that is, many men care about their looks, but not an average as much as woman.

In fact everybody who ever existed would probably rather be good-looking than not. nobody would say I'd rather not be good-looking.

Do you recognize that you are making a universal claim, of girls, as in all girls.
if I asked you which girls do this you'd probably be very limited on who you can say actually do that, perhaps yourself only?

And there is pretty strong object biological evidence for those reasons. Which don't even need a social explanation.

There's nothing that actually says you have to be like anything, or have to live up to anybody's expectations. You are as free to be as much as you want to impress or not impress who you care to impress, for whatever advantage to yourself you feel it is.

So it is always your own self- tyranny, which keeps you feeling forced.

People are more or less attracted to physical looks as well, so that probably plays a role in people wanting to be attracted. There's no need to limited to simply looks, there's many things that people like about other people. As we all have different kinds of "tastes.". So depends who you want to impress.
If we were the only ones who see ourselves, I'd don't think we would care as much about are looks. It is pretty common for those who are not in that game, or have a particular skill which is in demand, to claim the others as being lower, as a kind of self-justification or counterculture.

I don't think it's fair to force or threaten people to like you, no matter what, or to torture them socially for not having the same tastes as yourself. For yourself.

Do you disagree with that?

I don't believe in mind washing children either when they're young to have a certain ideological views, branded in their brains while they're so young, and have not yet develop minds of their own such as yourselves.

And so if you like somebody, who has that taste, and is attracted to that, it's possible, perhaps, maybe not, that people might want to be tasteful and that way.. I mean I like to provide for people I like what they like, it feels good to give, and not be so selfish. I feel happy making myself and the greater collective happy, I think is a necessary condition of morality, for how could you be moral if you only care about what you like, for yourself, only?
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
The_Fool_on_the_hill
Posts: 6,071
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9/17/2013 3:59:11 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Sahaj: And ones like me (THE REAL PEOPLE)who choose to live by our own rules are cast aside, labelled misfits and outcasts, for the crime of wanting to be ourselves and not live by the rules and preconceptions of a social caste system.

The Fool: Actually you are the poster "child" smack dab in the middle of Western societies ideological principles and social norms; individuality, democracy, free will, and free choice. In fact I don't think you realize how much you been influenced, and how unoriginal, obvious, common sense, mundane and everyday you and your ideas actually are.

In fact there is not one original aspect of any of your statements, that is not been tirelessly claimed millions of times by most of Western society in whatever way they differ from other people for the last 200 years. It doesn't get any more normal, and average than that. You should feel better. you're not outcast after all. You are part of the wolf pack. or rather, the scourge of blood sniffing, flesh eating Piranha's. You're not a misfit, your perfectly in line with what you been trained to be, with the values, thoughts and personality you been trained to have since you were in kindergarten. You are the ideal Western liberal ideologist in flesh. And in harmony with the world around you. What more could you ask for. In fact I wish I was free to be able to speak my mind, like yourself without an punished or intentionally drowned in the gravely great wave of social commonality"

Hooray for Sahaj".you're the same, as yourself, for yourself, and to yourself..

Hooray Sahaj, and herself.

<(8D)
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
AnDoctuir
Posts: 11,060
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9/17/2013 4:17:28 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/17/2013 3:19:16 AM, The_Fool_on_the_hill wrote:
Sahaj: Boys want to play football and be seen as "jocks", regardless of whether they actually are and whether they derive any satisfaction from it, because this is what society demands.

The fool: Why did you pick football? Kind of sounds arbitrary..
<(89)

I don't think there exist "jocks" as an actual property, but rather as a term of reference in relation to boys who tend to be sportive. That is, they called the "jocks" because that's what the word is normally used to refer to. Just like the term bachelor is pretty much always used to refer to unmarried men. Not because they are any more or less seen, in any way but that's what people use the term " bachelor" to refer to mean.

Thus, it's not really a thing which they can "be" or not be "in itself" but rather at generalized use of the term of reference.

If the use of the term is not grounded in any way, we cannot communicate. As no one could really know what somebody means when their speaking, and then when it gets all confusing people say "must be arbitrary", or must be subjective.

This is done with morals all the time and with any terms that have a strong positive connotation. Things like knowledge, good, intelligent, truth, beautiful, justice were never really subjective originally, but rather people who are not necessarily in that group, start using the terms to refer the things they would like to be praised as well, And certain groups will not allow certain things to be called by those words,

As people start to then fight over the use of the terms, the population themselves become confused, and communication is severed, as the terms can no longer be said to have any particular meaning. And so the result is: "must be arbitrary" Or must be subjective. Not because those things which are any less true, or subjective, but rather the use of the terms to speak about them become used subjectively.

Everything becomes called intelligent, where nothing can be clearly said to be intelligent anymore.

No new intelligence has been discovered that would not already and always have been there before, but that which was previously called skills, like athletic ability, or social skills are now called athletic intelligence, or social intelligence..

Nobody will allow the other group to have any advantage on any of those claims. And so any progressive function of them becomes lost. And so people have to create new names, like "values". It would appear like values is used more often and for longer than it actually is than it is, but the old terminology is being translated over with new terminology.

It the same for negative names to like "retarded", which within then called mentally challenged, and when that gets abused negatively, they create another name, to refer them to keep getting rid of the stigma, but nothing is changing but the names..

There's nothing we can do to stop the population as a whole from changing the reference of the terms, when it is or is not in their favor. What can be said depends on what is actually said..

In fact that's also where "science" came from. It just means knowledge. And since everybody can see plainly with their eyes, "what could be seen," became called Science. In fact, The Science, AKA The knowledge, and so what do you think that does to all the other knowledge. Rubs them right out. Makes it harder to implore morality, justice, and other concepts that we know just as well, Through distorted communication..Most of us do it every day we don't even notice.

Apparently i'm only able to add replies but not stand-alone posts on my new phone. Anyway, i can't imagine fool said very much relevant at all but that's cool. Dunno what i'm here to say either but that's ok, we'll see. Amm. Well i guess i could make sense of the nonsense. I mean there isn't much there. Girls are the weaker sex and so look to the guys to bolster their physicality... And then there's looks, probably down to conditioning but that doesnt really matter in the finish up does it... Guys know they're looked to to be strong and so they try to be strong and there's the sports... Uhh... You got guys trying to be industrious for the same reason. Girls trying to be pretty. Its all industrious. We're bred for competition. We'd probably not be half as messed up if we weren't. Uh. Yeah that's about it. Fun fact: tell a girl you'll kill someone for her, in jest ofc tho, and she's yours. I can surely say something else though. Oh. If the girls considered hideous were plastered all over the television then they'd probably be the ones lusted after. Dudes are just trying to feel secure in their existence in their choice of looks imo. Yeah its all pretty dumb but what ya gonna do. Communism maybe, sure. Pretty sure i'm immune to mid-life crisis. Haha suckers. Um. What ya think fool?
Df0512
Posts: 966
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9/17/2013 5:37:57 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/16/2013 12:27:10 PM, Sahaj wrote:
I am in school, and every day around me i see people simply conforming to the arbitrary ideals of an unreasonable, irrational society. Boys want to play football and be seen as "jocks", regardless of whether they actually are and whether they derive any satisfaction from it, because this is what society demands. The girls want to be pretty because society has for some reason decided that girls must be physically attractive, and this is the only trait we should look for. And ones like me who choose to live by our own rules are cast aside, labelled misfits and outcasts, for the crime of wanting to be ourselves and not live by the rules and preconceptions of a social caste system. I know not why people feel they must dissolve their personalities in the quagmire of expectations, but if i were to venture a guess, i would say it is because they are afraid, afraid of what might happen if society, or at least the portion of society that is their habitat, rejects them because they do not live up to it's expectations. Or it could be because they seek acceptance no matter the cost, due to low self-esteem. Either way, I can't help but feel that this arbitrary system could not stay in power if people refused to abide by it, and it only remains in power because people allow it to, and what i don't grasp is why more people, like me, don't simply reject it's arbitrary ideals, which is the rational course of action (I am an empiricist-rationalist). I would like some input on this, to better understand this phenomenon and shed light on it's inner workings. Note : I would like a nice, civilized discussion if possible. We aren't opposing one another, just putting our viewpoints forward and developing on them and gaining new ideas and perspectives. That being said, the topic's all your's, gentlemen.

Well did you consider that maybe those kids do actually want to play football. Of course you will run into a few that are only trying to "fit in", but when I was in highschool my basketball, teammates wanted to be there. We wouldn't let you play if you didn't. I think it is the "fitting in" that bothers you. They have low self-esteem just like yopu said. People will do whatever they can to fit in. Especially in our younger ages. I don't think that there is a "system" however. Guys just enjoy sports and girls like being pretty and stickers and what not.
cybertron1998
Posts: 5,818
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9/17/2013 5:54:06 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/17/2013 4:17:28 AM, AnDoctuir wrote:
At 9/17/2013 3:19:16 AM, The_Fool_on_the_hill wrote:
Sahaj: Boys want to play football and be seen as "jocks", regardless of whether they actually are and whether they derive any satisfaction from it, because this is what society demands.

The fool: Why did you pick football? Kind of sounds arbitrary..
<(89)

I don't think there exist "jocks" as an actual property, but rather as a term of reference in relation to boys who tend to be sportive. That is, they called the "jocks" because that's what the word is normally used to refer to. Just like the term bachelor is pretty much always used to refer to unmarried men. Not because they are any more or less seen, in any way but that's what people use the term " bachelor" to refer to mean.

Thus, it's not really a thing which they can "be" or not be "in itself" but rather at generalized use of the term of reference.

If the use of the term is not grounded in any way, we cannot communicate. As no one could really know what somebody means when their speaking, and then when it gets all confusing people say "must be arbitrary", or must be subjective.

This is done with morals all the time and with any terms that have a strong positive connotation. Things like knowledge, good, intelligent, truth, beautiful, justice were never really subjective originally, but rather people who are not necessarily in that group, start using the terms to refer the things they would like to be praised as well, And certain groups will not allow certain things to be called by those words,

As people start to then fight over the use of the terms, the population themselves become confused, and communication is severed, as the terms can no longer be said to have any particular meaning. And so the result is: "must be arbitrary" Or must be subjective. Not because those things which are any less true, or subjective, but rather the use of the terms to speak about them become used subjectively.

Everything becomes called intelligent, where nothing can be clearly said to be intelligent anymore.

No new intelligence has been discovered that would not already and always have been there before, but that which was previously called skills, like athletic ability, or social skills are now called athletic intelligence, or social intelligence..

Nobody will allow the other group to have any advantage on any of those claims. And so any progressive function of them becomes lost. And so people have to create new names, like "values". It would appear like values is used more often and for longer than it actually is than it is, but the old terminology is being translated over with new terminology.

It the same for negative names to like "retarded", which within then called mentally challenged, and when that gets abused negatively, they create another name, to refer them to keep getting rid of the stigma, but nothing is changing but the names..

There's nothing we can do to stop the population as a whole from changing the reference of the terms, when it is or is not in their favor. What can be said depends on what is actually said..

In fact that's also where "science" came from. It just means knowledge. And since everybody can see plainly with their eyes, "what could be seen," became called Science. In fact, The Science, AKA The knowledge, and so what do you think that does to all the other knowledge. Rubs them right out. Makes it harder to implore morality, justice, and other concepts that we know just as well, Through distorted communication..Most of us do it every day we don't even notice.

Apparently i'm only able to add replies but not stand-alone posts on my new phone. Anyway, i can't imagine fool said very much relevant at all but that's cool. Dunno what i'm here to say either but that's ok, we'll see. Amm. Well i guess i could make sense of the nonsense. I mean there isn't much there. Girls are the weaker sex and so look to the guys to bolster their physicality... And then there's looks, probably down to conditioning but that doesnt really matter in the finish up does it... Guys know they're looked to to be strong and so they try to be strong and there's the sports... Uhh... You got guys trying to be industrious for the same reason. Girls trying to be pretty. Its all industrious. We're bred for competition. We'd probably not be half as messed up if we weren't. Uh. Yeah that's about it. Fun fact: tell a girl you'll kill someone for her, in jest ofc tho, and she's yours. I can surely say something else though. Oh. If the girls considered hideous were plastered all over the television then they'd probably be the ones lusted after. Dudes are just trying to feel secure in their existence in their choice of looks imo. Yeah its all pretty dumb but what ya gonna do. Communism maybe, sure. Pretty sure i'm immune to mid-life crisis. Haha suckers. Um. What ya think fool?

I'm immune to the whole conforming thing. Honestly i just decided to be a social lone wolf. I act friendly but in my mind it really doesn't matter.
Epsilon: There are so many stories where some brave hero decides to give their life to save the day, and because of their sacrifice, the good guys win, the survivors all cheer, and everybody lives happily ever after. But the hero... never gets to see that ending. They'll never know if their sacrifice actually made a difference. They'll never know if the day was really saved. In the end, they just have to have faith.