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God couldn't have created t=0

Rational_Thinker9119
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10/15/2013 7:40:56 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
God couldn't have created time, because if God created time, he would have to be timeless. However, if God exists he also must be intelligent... A timeless intelligence is a contradiction. This is because mental processing, and the ability to process thoughts is required for intelligence. Denying that mental processing is required for intelligence, is like denying that a moving vehicle is required for a car ride, or the notion that arm lifting is required for bench pressing. These are self-evident truths. The problem is that a process necessitates time. Claiming that a process can occur in 0 time is like saying a basketball can fit in 0 space; these are metaphysical absurdities.

Since the very existence of this intelligence implies time, and to cause time, this intelligence would have to be timeless; there is an inherent contradiction in the idea of God if he is defined as the intelligent being that created the first moment of time.
anomalous
Posts: 118
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10/15/2013 7:49:11 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/15/2013 7:40:56 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
God couldn't have created time, because if God created time, he would have to be timeless. However, if God exists he also must be intelligent... A timeless intelligence is a contradiction. This is because mental processing, and the ability to process thoughts is required for intelligence. Denying that mental processing is required for intelligence, is like denying that a moving vehicle is required for a car ride, or the notion that arm lifting is required for bench pressing. These are self-evident truths. The problem is that a process necessitates time. Claiming that a process can occur in 0 time is like saying a basketball can fit in 0 space; these are metaphysical absurdities.

Since the very existence of this intelligence implies time, and to cause time, this intelligence would have to be timeless; there is an inherent contradiction in the idea of God if he is defined as the intelligent being that created the first moment of time.

You assume a lot, hairless ape.
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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10/15/2013 7:50:18 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/15/2013 7:49:11 PM, anomalous wrote:
At 10/15/2013 7:40:56 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
God couldn't have created time, because if God created time, he would have to be timeless. However, if God exists he also must be intelligent... A timeless intelligence is a contradiction. This is because mental processing, and the ability to process thoughts is required for intelligence. Denying that mental processing is required for intelligence, is like denying that a moving vehicle is required for a car ride, or the notion that arm lifting is required for bench pressing. These are self-evident truths. The problem is that a process necessitates time. Claiming that a process can occur in 0 time is like saying a basketball can fit in 0 space; these are metaphysical absurdities.

Since the very existence of this intelligence implies time, and to cause time, this intelligence would have to be timeless; there is an inherent contradiction in the idea of God if he is defined as the intelligent being that created the first moment of time.

You assume a lot, hairless ape.

Which of my assertions are you skeptical about, and why?
anomalous
Posts: 118
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10/15/2013 7:50:56 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/15/2013 7:50:18 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 10/15/2013 7:49:11 PM, anomalous wrote:
At 10/15/2013 7:40:56 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
God couldn't have created time, because if God created time, he would have to be timeless. However, if God exists he also must be intelligent... A timeless intelligence is a contradiction. This is because mental processing, and the ability to process thoughts is required for intelligence. Denying that mental processing is required for intelligence, is like denying that a moving vehicle is required for a car ride, or the notion that arm lifting is required for bench pressing. These are self-evident truths. The problem is that a process necessitates time. Claiming that a process can occur in 0 time is like saying a basketball can fit in 0 space; these are metaphysical absurdities.

Since the very existence of this intelligence implies time, and to cause time, this intelligence would have to be timeless; there is an inherent contradiction in the idea of God if he is defined as the intelligent being that created the first moment of time.

You assume a lot, hairless ape.

Which of my assertions are you skeptical about, and why?

That intelligence cannot exist without time.
anomalous
Posts: 118
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10/15/2013 7:51:13 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/15/2013 7:50:56 PM, anomalous wrote:
At 10/15/2013 7:50:18 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 10/15/2013 7:49:11 PM, anomalous wrote:
At 10/15/2013 7:40:56 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
God couldn't have created time, because if God created time, he would have to be timeless. However, if God exists he also must be intelligent... A timeless intelligence is a contradiction. This is because mental processing, and the ability to process thoughts is required for intelligence. Denying that mental processing is required for intelligence, is like denying that a moving vehicle is required for a car ride, or the notion that arm lifting is required for bench pressing. These are self-evident truths. The problem is that a process necessitates time. Claiming that a process can occur in 0 time is like saying a basketball can fit in 0 space; these are metaphysical absurdities.

Since the very existence of this intelligence implies time, and to cause time, this intelligence would have to be timeless; there is an inherent contradiction in the idea of God if he is defined as the intelligent being that created the first moment of time.

You assume a lot, hairless ape.

Which of my assertions are you skeptical about, and why?

That intelligence cannot exist without time.

You can't possibly know that.
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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10/15/2013 7:53:13 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/15/2013 7:51:13 PM, anomalous wrote:
At 10/15/2013 7:50:56 PM, anomalous wrote:
At 10/15/2013 7:50:18 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 10/15/2013 7:49:11 PM, anomalous wrote:
At 10/15/2013 7:40:56 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
God couldn't have created time, because if God created time, he would have to be timeless. However, if God exists he also must be intelligent... A timeless intelligence is a contradiction. This is because mental processing, and the ability to process thoughts is required for intelligence. Denying that mental processing is required for intelligence, is like denying that a moving vehicle is required for a car ride, or the notion that arm lifting is required for bench pressing. These are self-evident truths. The problem is that a process necessitates time. Claiming that a process can occur in 0 time is like saying a basketball can fit in 0 space; these are metaphysical absurdities.

Since the very existence of this intelligence implies time, and to cause time, this intelligence would have to be timeless; there is an inherent contradiction in the idea of God if he is defined as the intelligent being that created the first moment of time.

You assume a lot, hairless ape.

Which of my assertions are you skeptical about, and why?

That intelligence cannot exist without time.

You can't possibly know that.

Well, like I said, to deny my conclusion you have to say:

a) Intelligence can exist without mental processing and the ability to process thoughts (which is absurd)

or

b) A process can happen, even if there is no time for it to happen (which is absurd)
anomalous
Posts: 118
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10/15/2013 7:54:10 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/15/2013 7:53:13 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 10/15/2013 7:51:13 PM, anomalous wrote:
At 10/15/2013 7:50:56 PM, anomalous wrote:
At 10/15/2013 7:50:18 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 10/15/2013 7:49:11 PM, anomalous wrote:
At 10/15/2013 7:40:56 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
God couldn't have created time, because if God created time, he would have to be timeless. However, if God exists he also must be intelligent... A timeless intelligence is a contradiction. This is because mental processing, and the ability to process thoughts is required for intelligence. Denying that mental processing is required for intelligence, is like denying that a moving vehicle is required for a car ride, or the notion that arm lifting is required for bench pressing. These are self-evident truths. The problem is that a process necessitates time. Claiming that a process can occur in 0 time is like saying a basketball can fit in 0 space; these are metaphysical absurdities.

Since the very existence of this intelligence implies time, and to cause time, this intelligence would have to be timeless; there is an inherent contradiction in the idea of God if he is defined as the intelligent being that created the first moment of time.

You assume a lot, hairless ape.

Which of my assertions are you skeptical about, and why?

That intelligence cannot exist without time.

You can't possibly know that.

Well, like I said, to deny my conclusion you have to say:

a) Intelligence can exist without mental processing and the ability to process thoughts (which is absurd)

or

b) A process can happen, even if there is no time for it to happen (which is absurd)

You know nothing Jon Snow.
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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10/15/2013 7:56:07 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/15/2013 7:54:10 PM, anomalous wrote:
At 10/15/2013 7:53:13 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 10/15/2013 7:51:13 PM, anomalous wrote:
At 10/15/2013 7:50:56 PM, anomalous wrote:
At 10/15/2013 7:50:18 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 10/15/2013 7:49:11 PM, anomalous wrote:
At 10/15/2013 7:40:56 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
God couldn't have created time, because if God created time, he would have to be timeless. However, if God exists he also must be intelligent... A timeless intelligence is a contradiction. This is because mental processing, and the ability to process thoughts is required for intelligence. Denying that mental processing is required for intelligence, is like denying that a moving vehicle is required for a car ride, or the notion that arm lifting is required for bench pressing. These are self-evident truths. The problem is that a process necessitates time. Claiming that a process can occur in 0 time is like saying a basketball can fit in 0 space; these are metaphysical absurdities.

Since the very existence of this intelligence implies time, and to cause time, this intelligence would have to be timeless; there is an inherent contradiction in the idea of God if he is defined as the intelligent being that created the first moment of time.

You assume a lot, hairless ape.

Which of my assertions are you skeptical about, and why?

That intelligence cannot exist without time.

You can't possibly know that.

Well, like I said, to deny my conclusion you have to say:

a) Intelligence can exist without mental processing and the ability to process thoughts (which is absurd)

or

b) A process can happen, even if there is no time for it to happen (which is absurd)

You know nothing Jon Snow.

Just asserting that I know nothing doesn't undermine my argument you know, this is just an elementary Ad Hominem fallacy lol
anomalous
Posts: 118
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10/15/2013 7:59:21 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/15/2013 7:56:07 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 10/15/2013 7:54:10 PM, anomalous wrote:
At 10/15/2013 7:53:13 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 10/15/2013 7:51:13 PM, anomalous wrote:
At 10/15/2013 7:50:56 PM, anomalous wrote:
At 10/15/2013 7:50:18 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 10/15/2013 7:49:11 PM, anomalous wrote:
At 10/15/2013 7:40:56 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
God couldn't have created time, because if God created time, he would have to be timeless. However, if God exists he also must be intelligent... A timeless intelligence is a contradiction. This is because mental processing, and the ability to process thoughts is required for intelligence. Denying that mental processing is required for intelligence, is like denying that a moving vehicle is required for a car ride, or the notion that arm lifting is required for bench pressing. These are self-evident truths. The problem is that a process necessitates time. Claiming that a process can occur in 0 time is like saying a basketball can fit in 0 space; these are metaphysical absurdities.

Since the very existence of this intelligence implies time, and to cause time, this intelligence would have to be timeless; there is an inherent contradiction in the idea of God if he is defined as the intelligent being that created the first moment of time.

You assume a lot, hairless ape.

Which of my assertions are you skeptical about, and why?

That intelligence cannot exist without time.

You can't possibly know that.

Well, like I said, to deny my conclusion you have to say:

a) Intelligence can exist without mental processing and the ability to process thoughts (which is absurd)

or

b) A process can happen, even if there is no time for it to happen (which is absurd)

You know nothing Jon Snow.

Just asserting that I know nothing doesn't undermine my argument you know, this is just an elementary Ad Hominem fallacy lol

You presume that all of existence is a closed system and you cannot possibly know that.
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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10/15/2013 8:02:20 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/15/2013 7:59:21 PM, anomalous wrote:
At 10/15/2013 7:56:07 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 10/15/2013 7:54:10 PM, anomalous wrote:
At 10/15/2013 7:53:13 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 10/15/2013 7:51:13 PM, anomalous wrote:
At 10/15/2013 7:50:56 PM, anomalous wrote:
At 10/15/2013 7:50:18 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 10/15/2013 7:49:11 PM, anomalous wrote:
At 10/15/2013 7:40:56 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
God couldn't have created time, because if God created time, he would have to be timeless. However, if God exists he also must be intelligent... A timeless intelligence is a contradiction. This is because mental processing, and the ability to process thoughts is required for intelligence. Denying that mental processing is required for intelligence, is like denying that a moving vehicle is required for a car ride, or the notion that arm lifting is required for bench pressing. These are self-evident truths. The problem is that a process necessitates time. Claiming that a process can occur in 0 time is like saying a basketball can fit in 0 space; these are metaphysical absurdities.

Since the very existence of this intelligence implies time, and to cause time, this intelligence would have to be timeless; there is an inherent contradiction in the idea of God if he is defined as the intelligent being that created the first moment of time.

You assume a lot, hairless ape.

Which of my assertions are you skeptical about, and why?

That intelligence cannot exist without time.

You can't possibly know that.

Well, like I said, to deny my conclusion you have to say:

a) Intelligence can exist without mental processing and the ability to process thoughts (which is absurd)

or

b) A process can happen, even if there is no time for it to happen (which is absurd)

You know nothing Jon Snow.

Just asserting that I know nothing doesn't undermine my argument you know, this is just an elementary Ad Hominem fallacy lol

You presume that all of existence is a closed system and you cannot possibly know that.

How does my argument presume that all of existence is a closed system? All it presumes is that intelligence cannot exist without mental processing and the ability to process thoughts (which seems as self-evident as the notion that a moving vehicle is required for boat rides), and that a process requires time for it to happen. If there is 0 time, then nothing happens as events and change involved with a process entail time. These are simple a priori truths.
bladerunner060
Posts: 7,126
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10/15/2013 8:05:56 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/15/2013 8:02:20 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 10/15/2013 7:59:21 PM, anomalous wrote:
At 10/15/2013 7:56:07 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 10/15/2013 7:54:10 PM, anomalous wrote:
At 10/15/2013 7:53:13 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 10/15/2013 7:51:13 PM, anomalous wrote:
At 10/15/2013 7:50:56 PM, anomalous wrote:
At 10/15/2013 7:50:18 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 10/15/2013 7:49:11 PM, anomalous wrote:
At 10/15/2013 7:40:56 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
God couldn't have created time, because if God created time, he would have to be timeless. However, if God exists he also must be intelligent... A timeless intelligence is a contradiction. This is because mental processing, and the ability to process thoughts is required for intelligence. Denying that mental processing is required for intelligence, is like denying that a moving vehicle is required for a car ride, or the notion that arm lifting is required for bench pressing. These are self-evident truths. The problem is that a process necessitates time. Claiming that a process can occur in 0 time is like saying a basketball can fit in 0 space; these are metaphysical absurdities.

Since the very existence of this intelligence implies time, and to cause time, this intelligence would have to be timeless; there is an inherent contradiction in the idea of God if he is defined as the intelligent being that created the first moment of time.

You assume a lot, hairless ape.

Which of my assertions are you skeptical about, and why?

That intelligence cannot exist without time.

You can't possibly know that.

Well, like I said, to deny my conclusion you have to say:

a) Intelligence can exist without mental processing and the ability to process thoughts (which is absurd)

or

b) A process can happen, even if there is no time for it to happen (which is absurd)

You know nothing Jon Snow.

Just asserting that I know nothing doesn't undermine my argument you know, this is just an elementary Ad Hominem fallacy lol

You presume that all of existence is a closed system and you cannot possibly know that.

How does my argument presume that all of existence is a closed system? All it presumes is that intelligence cannot exist without mental processing and the ability to process thoughts (which seems as self-evident as the notion that a moving vehicle is required for boat rides), and that a process requires time for it to happen. If there is 0 time, then nothing happens as events and change involved with a process entail time. These are simple a priori truths.

Perhaps anomalous is trying to indicate that God might have created the time as we understand it, but might exist in a DIFFERENT time.

Of course, that doesn't address your fundamental argument at all.
Assistant moderator to airmax1227. PM me with any questions or concerns!
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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10/15/2013 8:07:46 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/15/2013 8:05:56 PM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 10/15/2013 8:02:20 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 10/15/2013 7:59:21 PM, anomalous wrote:
At 10/15/2013 7:56:07 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 10/15/2013 7:54:10 PM, anomalous wrote:
At 10/15/2013 7:53:13 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 10/15/2013 7:51:13 PM, anomalous wrote:
At 10/15/2013 7:50:56 PM, anomalous wrote:
At 10/15/2013 7:50:18 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 10/15/2013 7:49:11 PM, anomalous wrote:
At 10/15/2013 7:40:56 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
God couldn't have created time, because if God created time, he would have to be timeless. However, if God exists he also must be intelligent... A timeless intelligence is a contradiction. This is because mental processing, and the ability to process thoughts is required for intelligence. Denying that mental processing is required for intelligence, is like denying that a moving vehicle is required for a car ride, or the notion that arm lifting is required for bench pressing. These are self-evident truths. The problem is that a process necessitates time. Claiming that a process can occur in 0 time is like saying a basketball can fit in 0 space; these are metaphysical absurdities.

Since the very existence of this intelligence implies time, and to cause time, this intelligence would have to be timeless; there is an inherent contradiction in the idea of God if he is defined as the intelligent being that created the first moment of time.

You assume a lot, hairless ape.

Which of my assertions are you skeptical about, and why?

That intelligence cannot exist without time.

You can't possibly know that.

Well, like I said, to deny my conclusion you have to say:

a) Intelligence can exist without mental processing and the ability to process thoughts (which is absurd)

or

b) A process can happen, even if there is no time for it to happen (which is absurd)

You know nothing Jon Snow.

Just asserting that I know nothing doesn't undermine my argument you know, this is just an elementary Ad Hominem fallacy lol

You presume that all of existence is a closed system and you cannot possibly know that.

How does my argument presume that all of existence is a closed system? All it presumes is that intelligence cannot exist without mental processing and the ability to process thoughts (which seems as self-evident as the notion that a moving vehicle is required for boat rides), and that a process requires time for it to happen. If there is 0 time, then nothing happens as events and change involved with a process entail time. These are simple a priori truths.

Perhaps anomalous is trying to indicate that God might have created the time as we understand it, but might exist in a DIFFERENT time.


Of course, that doesn't address your fundamental argument at all.

A different time still falls under the category of "time" (self-evidently), thus if God caused the first moment of time then he couldn't exist in a different time.
bladerunner060
Posts: 7,126
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10/15/2013 8:10:22 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/15/2013 8:07:46 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 10/15/2013 8:05:56 PM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 10/15/2013 8:02:20 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 10/15/2013 7:59:21 PM, anomalous wrote:
At 10/15/2013 7:56:07 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 10/15/2013 7:54:10 PM, anomalous wrote:
At 10/15/2013 7:53:13 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 10/15/2013 7:51:13 PM, anomalous wrote:
At 10/15/2013 7:50:56 PM, anomalous wrote:
At 10/15/2013 7:50:18 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 10/15/2013 7:49:11 PM, anomalous wrote:
At 10/15/2013 7:40:56 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
God couldn't have created time, because if God created time, he would have to be timeless. However, if God exists he also must be intelligent... A timeless intelligence is a contradiction. This is because mental processing, and the ability to process thoughts is required for intelligence. Denying that mental processing is required for intelligence, is like denying that a moving vehicle is required for a car ride, or the notion that arm lifting is required for bench pressing. These are self-evident truths. The problem is that a process necessitates time. Claiming that a process can occur in 0 time is like saying a basketball can fit in 0 space; these are metaphysical absurdities.

Since the very existence of this intelligence implies time, and to cause time, this intelligence would have to be timeless; there is an inherent contradiction in the idea of God if he is defined as the intelligent being that created the first moment of time.

You assume a lot, hairless ape.

Which of my assertions are you skeptical about, and why?

That intelligence cannot exist without time.

You can't possibly know that.

Well, like I said, to deny my conclusion you have to say:

a) Intelligence can exist without mental processing and the ability to process thoughts (which is absurd)

or

b) A process can happen, even if there is no time for it to happen (which is absurd)

You know nothing Jon Snow.

Just asserting that I know nothing doesn't undermine my argument you know, this is just an elementary Ad Hominem fallacy lol

You presume that all of existence is a closed system and you cannot possibly know that.

How does my argument presume that all of existence is a closed system? All it presumes is that intelligence cannot exist without mental processing and the ability to process thoughts (which seems as self-evident as the notion that a moving vehicle is required for boat rides), and that a process requires time for it to happen. If there is 0 time, then nothing happens as events and change involved with a process entail time. These are simple a priori truths.

Perhaps anomalous is trying to indicate that God might have created the time as we understand it, but might exist in a DIFFERENT time.


Of course, that doesn't address your fundamental argument at all.

A different time still falls under the category of "time" (self-evidently), thus if God caused the first moment of time then he couldn't exist in a different time.

Well yes, that was my point. So even if there were some weird orthogonal time frame that God existed in, he didn't create "time", he'd have only created "this time reference". And so therefore the objection doesn't address the argument.
Assistant moderator to airmax1227. PM me with any questions or concerns!
anomalous
Posts: 118
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10/15/2013 8:10:54 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/15/2013 8:02:20 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 10/15/2013 7:59:21 PM, anomalous wrote:
At 10/15/2013 7:56:07 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 10/15/2013 7:54:10 PM, anomalous wrote:
At 10/15/2013 7:53:13 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 10/15/2013 7:51:13 PM, anomalous wrote:
At 10/15/2013 7:50:56 PM, anomalous wrote:
At 10/15/2013 7:50:18 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 10/15/2013 7:49:11 PM, anomalous wrote:
At 10/15/2013 7:40:56 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
God couldn't have created time, because if God created time, he would have to be timeless. However, if God exists he also must be intelligent... A timeless intelligence is a contradiction. This is because mental processing, and the ability to process thoughts is required for intelligence. Denying that mental processing is required for intelligence, is like denying that a moving vehicle is required for a car ride, or the notion that arm lifting is required for bench pressing. These are self-evident truths. The problem is that a process necessitates time. Claiming that a process can occur in 0 time is like saying a basketball can fit in 0 space; these are metaphysical absurdities.

Since the very existence of this intelligence implies time, and to cause time, this intelligence would have to be timeless; there is an inherent contradiction in the idea of God if he is defined as the intelligent being that created the first moment of time.

You assume a lot, hairless ape.

Which of my assertions are you skeptical about, and why?

That intelligence cannot exist without time.

You can't possibly know that.

Well, like I said, to deny my conclusion you have to say:

a) Intelligence can exist without mental processing and the ability to process thoughts (which is absurd)

or

b) A process can happen, even if there is no time for it to happen (which is absurd)

You know nothing Jon Snow.

Just asserting that I know nothing doesn't undermine my argument you know, this is just an elementary Ad Hominem fallacy lol

You presume that all of existence is a closed system and you cannot possibly know that.

How does my argument presume that all of existence is a closed system? All it presumes is that intelligence cannot exist without mental processing and the ability to process thoughts (which seems as self-evident as the notion that a moving vehicle is required for boat rides), and that a process requires time for it to happen. If there is 0 time, then nothing happens as events and change involved with a process entail time. These are simple a priori truths.

You're saying that God is part of the same system as time and space as we know it, and thus is subject to the same laws, or, that God exists as a physical entity somewhere in the Universe and thus is subject to the same laws. You know that nobody is arguing that and thus you're arguing against a strawman. God exists outside of space and time. The analogy I present is that 'existence' is like a cake in the oven and that God is like the person baking that cake. He knows all the elements required and the environment in which they will take the form he wants. You are one particle of the cake asking how the baker can know how to bake a cake if he is part of the cake.
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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10/15/2013 8:14:18 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/15/2013 8:10:54 PM, anomalous wrote:
At 10/15/2013 8:02:20 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 10/15/2013 7:59:21 PM, anomalous wrote:
At 10/15/2013 7:56:07 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 10/15/2013 7:54:10 PM, anomalous wrote:
At 10/15/2013 7:53:13 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 10/15/2013 7:51:13 PM, anomalous wrote:
At 10/15/2013 7:50:56 PM, anomalous wrote:
At 10/15/2013 7:50:18 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 10/15/2013 7:49:11 PM, anomalous wrote:
At 10/15/2013 7:40:56 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
God couldn't have created time, because if God created time, he would have to be timeless. However, if God exists he also must be intelligent... A timeless intelligence is a contradiction. This is because mental processing, and the ability to process thoughts is required for intelligence. Denying that mental processing is required for intelligence, is like denying that a moving vehicle is required for a car ride, or the notion that arm lifting is required for bench pressing. These are self-evident truths. The problem is that a process necessitates time. Claiming that a process can occur in 0 time is like saying a basketball can fit in 0 space; these are metaphysical absurdities.

Since the very existence of this intelligence implies time, and to cause time, this intelligence would have to be timeless; there is an inherent contradiction in the idea of God if he is defined as the intelligent being that created the first moment of time.

You assume a lot, hairless ape.

Which of my assertions are you skeptical about, and why?

That intelligence cannot exist without time.

You can't possibly know that.

Well, like I said, to deny my conclusion you have to say:

a) Intelligence can exist without mental processing and the ability to process thoughts (which is absurd)

or

b) A process can happen, even if there is no time for it to happen (which is absurd)

You know nothing Jon Snow.

Just asserting that I know nothing doesn't undermine my argument you know, this is just an elementary Ad Hominem fallacy lol

You presume that all of existence is a closed system and you cannot possibly know that.

How does my argument presume that all of existence is a closed system? All it presumes is that intelligence cannot exist without mental processing and the ability to process thoughts (which seems as self-evident as the notion that a moving vehicle is required for boat rides), and that a process requires time for it to happen. If there is 0 time, then nothing happens as events and change involved with a process entail time. These are simple a priori truths.

You're saying that God is part of the same system as time and space as we know it, and thus is subject to the same laws, or, that God exists as a physical entity somewhere in the Universe and thus is subject to the same laws. You know that nobody is arguing that and thus you're arguing against a strawman.

I'm not saying that anybody is arguing that, you are are committing the straw-man fallacy. I am saying that God has to be temporal if he is intelligent, thus the argument from theists that God = timeless is false.

God exists outside of space and time.

Impossible. God if exists, is intelligent. However, intelligence presupposes time because processing thoughts requires time. Thus, the idea of God existing outside of time is illogical.

The analogy I present is that 'existence' is like a cake in the oven and that God is like the person baking that cake. He knows all the elements required and the environment in which they will take the form he wants. You are one particle of the cake asking how the baker can know how to bake a cake if he is part of the cake.
Rational_Thinker9119
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10/15/2013 8:15:07 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/15/2013 8:13:33 PM, anomalous wrote:
Also, I wonder whether an omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent being needs to 'process' thoughts...

Well if he is not processing thoughts, then he is not intelligent. However, the most powerful being would be intelligent. Thus, we have another logical contradiction...
Rational_Thinker9119
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10/15/2013 8:17:31 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Remember, omnipotence only means that God can do anything logically and metaphysically possible; he cannot do anything which entails logical or metaphysical absurdities.
anomalous
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10/15/2013 8:20:19 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/15/2013 8:15:07 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 10/15/2013 8:13:33 PM, anomalous wrote:
Also, I wonder whether an omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent being needs to 'process' thoughts...

Well if he is not processing thoughts, then he is not intelligent. However, the most powerful being would be intelligent. Thus, we have another logical contradiction...

So we conclude that God doesn't fit your definition of intelligence.
Like I said, you know nothing. You are a crumb of cake, questioning the existence of the baker.
Rational_Thinker9119
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10/15/2013 8:22:35 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/15/2013 8:20:19 PM, anomalous wrote:
At 10/15/2013 8:15:07 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 10/15/2013 8:13:33 PM, anomalous wrote:
Also, I wonder whether an omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent being needs to 'process' thoughts...

Well if he is not processing thoughts, then he is not intelligent. However, the most powerful being would be intelligent. Thus, we have another logical contradiction...

So we conclude that God doesn't fit your definition of intelligence.

He fits no definition of intelligence! Thinking is a process by definition, saying that an intelligent being exists that cannot think is the height of irrationality.

Like I said, you know nothing. You are a crumb of cake, questioning the existence of the baker.
Rational_Thinker9119
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10/15/2013 8:23:20 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/15/2013 8:20:19 PM, anomalous wrote:
At 10/15/2013 8:15:07 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 10/15/2013 8:13:33 PM, anomalous wrote:
Also, I wonder whether an omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent being needs to 'process' thoughts...

Well if he is not processing thoughts, then he is not intelligent. However, the most powerful being would be intelligent. Thus, we have another logical contradiction...

So we conclude that God doesn't fit your definition of intelligence.
Like I said, you know nothing.

Another Ad Hominem fallacy.

You are a crumb of cake, questioning the existence of the baker.

You assume we are something that was baked, and that your baker can exist; which he cannot.
bladerunner060
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10/15/2013 8:23:51 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/15/2013 8:20:19 PM, anomalous wrote:
At 10/15/2013 8:15:07 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 10/15/2013 8:13:33 PM, anomalous wrote:
Also, I wonder whether an omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent being needs to 'process' thoughts...

Well if he is not processing thoughts, then he is not intelligent. However, the most powerful being would be intelligent. Thus, we have another logical contradiction...

So we conclude that God doesn't fit your definition of intelligence.
Like I said, you know nothing. You are a crumb of cake, questioning the existence of the baker.

Yes, yes, and it could just as easily be said that you're the puddle assuming the pothole was created specifically for it rather than by chance.

Rational is merely saying that a specific argument is nonsensical. While, I believe, he's still atheist, this was not meant as a general critique of "all possible conceptions and arguments for God", but merely "This one statement is nonsensical".
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Rational_Thinker9119
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10/15/2013 8:25:41 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
If you think intelligence can exist without processing thoughts, then you might as well say a you can do curls in the gym without moving your arms.
anomalous
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10/15/2013 8:31:11 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Argh, you're not loving the cake analogy.
Let's look at it a different way. Take many modern games which have their own internal time, like The Sims or GTAV or Skyrim. When you create a new game, you mark the beginning of a new timeline, starting at the moment the internal clock begins and ending whenever your save game ceases to exist (deleted, corrupted, lost, whatever). You might stop that timeline when you're not playing, but it restarts as soon as you load your save game.
Think of our timeline, beginning with the birth of the Universe and ending with the heat death of the Universe the same way. God is the player, or the programmer and exists outside of that timeline and isn't subject the same laws.
Rational_Thinker9119
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10/15/2013 8:33:17 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/15/2013 8:31:11 PM, anomalous wrote:
Argh, you're not loving the cake analogy.
Let's look at it a different way. Take many modern games which have their own internal time, like The Sims or GTAV or Skyrim. When you create a new game, you mark the beginning of a new timeline, starting at the moment the internal clock begins and ending whenever your save game ceases to exist (deleted, corrupted, lost, whatever). You might stop that timeline when you're not playing, but it restarts as soon as you load your save game.
Think of our timeline, beginning with the birth of the Universe and ending with the heat death of the Universe the same way. God is the player, or the programmer and exists outside of that timeline and isn't subject the same laws.

But he would have to be subject to those laws to exist. Thus, if he is not subject to those laws, then we have a contradiction. As I said, intelligence presupposes time, and God is supposedly is timeless and intelligent. Since this is contradictory, he cannot exist. God is not above the laws of metaphysics and logic, as they are inherent to his nature if he exists.
bladerunner060
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10/15/2013 8:33:59 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/15/2013 8:31:11 PM, anomalous wrote:
Argh, you're not loving the cake analogy.
Let's look at it a different way. Take many modern games which have their own internal time, like The Sims or GTAV or Skyrim. When you create a new game, you mark the beginning of a new timeline, starting at the moment the internal clock begins and ending whenever your save game ceases to exist (deleted, corrupted, lost, whatever). You might stop that timeline when you're not playing, but it restarts as soon as you load your save game.
Think of our timeline, beginning with the birth of the Universe and ending with the heat death of the Universe the same way. God is the player, or the programmer and exists outside of that timeline and isn't subject the same laws.

That may be the case, but it doesn't defeat what Rational was actually talking about. It is nonsense to claim that God exists in a "timeless" state. It may be a DIFFERENT sort of "time" to our own. But it's not "timeLESS", any more than pausing the Sims makes time pause for us. It was that specific concept, I believe, that he was objecting to, and which your own rebuttal does not address.
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anomalous
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10/15/2013 8:40:24 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
For those who come after me, this is the argument:

P1: Intelligence presupposes thought processing.
P2: Thought processing requires time.
C: Intelligence requires time.

Therefore, God cannot be both timeless and intelligent.

I'm going to eat some cake and play video games.
Rational_Thinker9119
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10/15/2013 8:53:15 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/15/2013 8:33:58 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
http://www.reasonablefaith.org...

I know of Dr. Craig's defense of a timeless personhood, but that doesn't address my argument about intelligence specifically. His defense fails still, because a conscious state of timelessness is illogical. Conciousness cannot exist without self-experiencing. You must be able to experience yourself to be conscious. However, experiencing is like thinking; a process. A process cannot occur without time.
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10/15/2013 9:00:01 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/15/2013 8:33:58 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
http://www.reasonablefaith.org...

Craig is describing something similar to a static book shelf that stores information when he speaks of all thoughts existing in this atemporal state of affairs, but that cannot actually process information. That isn't intelligence, that is just information stored. Also, the idea of experiencing one's self (having consciousness) without there being time for this experiencing process is absurd as well.