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Why not rape?

Eitan_Zohar
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10/16/2013 7:37:40 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Here's a hypothetical scenario. There is a man named Sam. Sam is a guy who is lonely and socially awkward. He has never had a girlfriend, probably never will, and he is a virgin. He also lives in a place where prostitution is rigidly outlawed, so that is not an option. Miserable from loneliness, rejection, and sexual deprivation, Sam decides to commit suicide. He comes up with a brilliant idea on how to perform the act painlessly. He knows of an old, abandoned fitness facility that has a full-size swimming pool. He will sneak in to the facility, fill the pool with water, and tie heavy weights to his ankles. He will then sit on the edge of the pool and shoot himself in the neck with a tranquilizer gun. He will fall asleep, the weights will drag him to the bottom of the pool, and Sam will simply drown in his sleep. As Sam enters the facility and goes to the pool to execute his plan, he is surprised to see that a very attractive young girl, named Susan, has already tried to perform the same suicide plan on herself. Susan had also stripped naked, deciding she wanted to die in the same condition in which she was born. However, the weights that Susan used to drag herself into the pool fell off, leaving her just lying unconscious by the pool. Watching her sleeping in the nude, Sam considers raping Susan. He knows the tranquilizer she had used on herself will keep her completely unconscious for at least a couple more hours. There are no active video cameras in the facility and there is no chance that anyone else will come into the facility to catch him in the act. Susan has no venereal diseases, and neither does Sam. Also, Susan is infertile, so there is no chance that Sam will give her an unwanted pregnancy. If Sam does rape Susan, she will never know that she had been raped and no legal action will ever come back to Sam. Sam feels that this situation is a dream come true and would give him a reason to live. Why shouldn't Sam rape Susan?
"It is my ambition to say in ten sentences what others say in a whole book."
Graincruncher
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10/16/2013 7:56:57 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
If Sam does rape Susan, she will never know that she had been raped and no legal action will ever come back to Sam. Sam feels that this situation is a dream come true and would give him a reason to live. Why shouldn't Sam rape Susan?

It is the problem with pure consequentialism and why no serious ethicists use it as an independently useful moral rule.
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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10/16/2013 8:18:58 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/16/2013 7:37:40 AM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:
Here's a hypothetical scenario. There is a man named Sam. Sam is a guy who is lonely and socially awkward. He has never had a girlfriend, probably never will, and he is a virgin. He also lives in a place where prostitution is rigidly outlawed, so that is not an option. Miserable from loneliness, rejection, and sexual deprivation, Sam decides to commit suicide. He comes up with a brilliant idea on how to perform the act painlessly. He knows of an old, abandoned fitness facility that has a full-size swimming pool. He will sneak in to the facility, fill the pool with water, and tie heavy weights to his ankles. He will then sit on the edge of the pool and shoot himself in the neck with a tranquilizer gun. He will fall asleep, the weights will drag him to the bottom of the pool, and Sam will simply drown in his sleep. As Sam enters the facility and goes to the pool to execute his plan, he is surprised to see that a very attractive young girl, named Susan, has already tried to perform the same suicide plan on herself. Susan had also stripped naked, deciding she wanted to die in the same condition in which she was born. However, the weights that Susan used to drag herself into the pool fell off, leaving her just lying unconscious by the pool. Watching her sleeping in the nude, Sam considers raping Susan. He knows the tranquilizer she had used on herself will keep her completely unconscious for at least a couple more hours. There are no active video cameras in the facility and there is no chance that anyone else will come into the facility to catch him in the act. Susan has no venereal diseases, and neither does Sam. Also, Susan is infertile, so there is no chance that Sam will give her an unwanted pregnancy. If Sam does rape Susan, she will never know that she had been raped and no legal action will ever come back to Sam. Sam feels that this situation is a dream come true and would give him a reason to live. Why shouldn't Sam rape Susan?

You are assuming that people only don't do wrong things our of fear of getting busted, this is not the case. Even if it was legal I wouldn't rape anyone, and being lonely and depressed is no excuse.
Poetaster
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10/16/2013 8:40:09 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
The twist: "Sam" is apparently revealed to be a confabulated alternate personality of Susan, who is actually having an out-of-body experience while tranquilized, such that Susan is, in effect, considering the prospect of raping herself.

But here comes the real Shyamalan: Sam is actually the asthmatic son of a pastor who thinks he lives in the Matrix, but who has really been dead this entire time. This explains his utter loneliness. The moment he touches "Susan", who has overdosed on the tranquilizer and is not actually having an out-of-body experience, but rather in a hallucinatory coma, Sam realizes that he is not The One (as Bruce Willis had believed) and submits himself to The Happening. He is then raped by plants.
"The book you are looking for hasn't been written yet. What you are looking for you are going to have to find yourself, it's not going to be in a book..." -Sidewalker
Rational_Thinker9119
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10/16/2013 8:45:12 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/16/2013 8:40:09 AM, Poetaster wrote:
The twist: "Sam" is apparently revealed to be a confabulated alternate personality of Susan, who is actually having an out-of-body experience while tranquilized, such that Susan is, in effect, considering the prospect of raping herself.

But here comes the real Shyamalan: Sam is actually the asthmatic son of a pastor who thinks he lives in the Matrix, but who has really been dead this entire time. This explains his utter loneliness. The moment he touches "Susan", who has overdosed on the tranquilizer and is not actually having an out-of-body experience, but rather in a hallucinatory coma, Sam realizes that he is not The One (as Bruce Willis had believed) and submits himself to The Happening. He is then raped by plants.

**Mind Blown**
The_Fool_on_the_hill
Posts: 6,071
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10/16/2013 9:02:53 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/16/2013 7:56:57 AM, Graincruncher wrote:
If Sam does rape Susan, she will never know that she had been raped and no legal action will ever come back to Sam. Sam feels that this situation is a dream come true and would give him a reason to live. Why shouldn't Sam rape Susan?

It is the problem with pure consequentialism and why no serious ethicists use it as an independently useful moral rule.

The Fool: Perhaps you meant utilitarianism?.....consequentialism, is a much broader ethics than simply utilitarianism.

It's amazing, how nobody actually even attempted to answer the question.

Monkey morals!
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
Poetaster
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10/16/2013 9:03:04 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/16/2013 8:45:12 AM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 10/16/2013 8:40:09 AM, Poetaster wrote:
The twist: "Sam" is apparently revealed to be a confabulated alternate personality of Susan, who is actually having an out-of-body experience while tranquilized, such that Susan is, in effect, considering the prospect of raping herself.

But here comes the real Shyamalan: Sam is actually the asthmatic son of a pastor who thinks he lives in the Matrix, but who has really been dead this entire time. This explains his utter loneliness. The moment he touches "Susan", who has overdosed on the tranquilizer and is not actually having an out-of-body experience, but rather in a hallucinatory coma, Sam realizes that he is not The One (as Bruce Willis had believed) and submits himself to The Happening. He is then raped by plants.

**Mind Blown**

Alternate ending: Mark Wahlberg (revealed to be The Architect) is actually running a computer simulation called "Project Bentham" in the year 4000 A.N. (i.e. "After Newton"), using two pre-programmed game theoretic agents (named "Sam" and "Susan") in order to analyze the validity of rape-functional ethical consequentialism in terms of utilitarian calculus. When the final moral computation of Project Bentham is performed, the human race will converge into a technological singularity to form a unitary consciousness which asymptotically approaches an ultimate state of maximal informational entropy as it contemplates the Final Question: "Why Not Rape?"

Sam is then raped by plants.
"The book you are looking for hasn't been written yet. What you are looking for you are going to have to find yourself, it's not going to be in a book..." -Sidewalker
Graincruncher
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10/16/2013 9:17:34 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/16/2013 9:02:53 AM, The_Fool_on_the_hill wrote:
The Fool: Perhaps you meant utilitarianism?.....consequentialism, is a much broader ethics than simply utilitarianism.

Had I meant utilitarianism - which I consider to be as flawed a moral basis as consequentialism - I would have said utilitarianism. What I meant - and said - was consequentialism. I am extremely familiar with both and know the difference very well, thank you. Do you have a response to what I did say?
dylancatlow
Posts: 12,253
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10/16/2013 10:18:36 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/16/2013 7:37:40 AM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:


Raping her would only prolong Sam's suffering because Sam wouldn't think of suicide again until after his pain outweighed the benefits of the rape and would kill himself only after he suffered a great deal.
dylancatlow
Posts: 12,253
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10/16/2013 10:36:46 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Because let's get real: raping a random unconscious girl is not company nor acceptance, will not improve Sam's social skills, and is only a temporary relief from sexual deprivation. Sam can't rape away his issues.
1Devilsadvocate
Posts: 1,518
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10/16/2013 11:22:41 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/16/2013 8:18:58 AM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 10/16/2013 7:37:40 AM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:
Here's a hypothetical scenario. There is a man named Sam. Sam is a guy who is lonely and socially awkward. He has never had a girlfriend, probably never will, and he is a virgin. He also lives in a place where prostitution is rigidly outlawed, so that is not an option. Miserable from loneliness, rejection, and sexual deprivation, Sam decides to commit suicide. He comes up with a brilliant idea on how to perform the act painlessly. He knows of an old, abandoned fitness facility that has a full-size swimming pool. He will sneak in to the facility, fill the pool with water, and tie heavy weights to his ankles. He will then sit on the edge of the pool and shoot himself in the neck with a tranquilizer gun. He will fall asleep, the weights will drag him to the bottom of the pool, and Sam will simply drown in his sleep. As Sam enters the facility and goes to the pool to execute his plan, he is surprised to see that a very attractive young girl, named Susan, has already tried to perform the same suicide plan on herself. Susan had also stripped naked, deciding she wanted to die in the same condition in which she was born. However, the weights that Susan used to drag herself into the pool fell off, leaving her just lying unconscious by the pool. Watching her sleeping in the nude, Sam considers raping Susan. He knows the tranquilizer she had used on herself will keep her completely unconscious for at least a couple more hours. There are no active video cameras in the facility and there is no chance that anyone else will come into the facility to catch him in the act. Susan has no venereal diseases, and neither does Sam. Also, Susan is infertile, so there is no chance that Sam will give her an unwanted pregnancy. If Sam does rape Susan, she will never know that she had been raped and no legal action will ever come back to Sam. Sam feels that this situation is a dream come true and would give him a reason to live. Why shouldn't Sam rape Susan?

You are assuming that people only don't do wrong things our of fear of getting busted, this is not the case. Even if it was legal I wouldn't rape anyone, and being lonely and depressed is no excuse.

The question was why not, (not, "would you?"or "is it wrong?").
I cannot write in English, because of the treacherous spelling. When I am reading, I only hear it and am unable to remember what the written word looks like."
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2-D
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10/16/2013 11:23:17 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/16/2013 8:40:09 AM, Poetaster wrote:
SPOILERS!!!!!!!!!!!!

The twist: "Sam" is apparently revealed to be a confabulated alternate personality of Susan, who is actually having an out-of-body experience while tranquilized, such that Susan is, in effect, considering the prospect of raping herself.

But here comes the real Shyamalan: Sam is actually the asthmatic son of a pastor who thinks he lives in the Matrix, but who has really been dead this entire time. This explains his utter loneliness. The moment he touches "Susan", who has overdosed on the tranquilizer and is not actually having an out-of-body experience, but rather in a hallucinatory coma, Sam realizes that he is not The One (as Bruce Willis had believed) and submits himself to The Happening. He is then raped by plants.

Really Poetaser? I havn't seen it yet!
sdavio
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10/16/2013 11:24:33 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Why not rape? Because sex is supposed to be a social interaction - about connecting with another person - not a personal scoreboard used to feed one's own ego. There's nothing life-affirming about raping an unconscious girl when neither of you have anything else to live for.. if that's how you think about sex you have some serious self esteem issues, I think.
"Logic is the money of the mind." - Karl Marx
dylancatlow
Posts: 12,253
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10/16/2013 11:29:20 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/16/2013 11:22:41 AM, 1Devilsadvocate wrote:
At 10/16/2013 8:18:58 AM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 10/16/2013 7:37:40 AM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:
Here's a hypothetical scenario. There is a man named Sam. Sam is a guy who is lonely and socially awkward. He has never had a girlfriend, probably never will, and he is a virgin. He also lives in a place where prostitution is rigidly outlawed, so that is not an option. Miserable from loneliness, rejection, and sexual deprivation, Sam decides to commit suicide. He comes up with a brilliant idea on how to perform the act painlessly. He knows of an old, abandoned fitness facility that has a full-size swimming pool. He will sneak in to the facility, fill the pool with water, and tie heavy weights to his ankles. He will then sit on the edge of the pool and shoot himself in the neck with a tranquilizer gun. He will fall asleep, the weights will drag him to the bottom of the pool, and Sam will simply drown in his sleep. As Sam enters the facility and goes to the pool to execute his plan, he is surprised to see that a very attractive young girl, named Susan, has already tried to perform the same suicide plan on herself. Susan had also stripped naked, deciding she wanted to die in the same condition in which she was born. However, the weights that Susan used to drag herself into the pool fell off, leaving her just lying unconscious by the pool. Watching her sleeping in the nude, Sam considers raping Susan. He knows the tranquilizer she had used on herself will keep her completely unconscious for at least a couple more hours. There are no active video cameras in the facility and there is no chance that anyone else will come into the facility to catch him in the act. Susan has no venereal diseases, and neither does Sam. Also, Susan is infertile, so there is no chance that Sam will give her an unwanted pregnancy. If Sam does rape Susan, she will never know that she had been raped and no legal action will ever come back to Sam. Sam feels that this situation is a dream come true and would give him a reason to live. Why shouldn't Sam rape Susan?

You are assuming that people only don't do wrong things our of fear of getting busted, this is not the case. Even if it was legal I wouldn't rape anyone, and being lonely and depressed is no excuse.

The question was why not, (not, "would you?"or "is it wrong?").

"Is it wrong" would provide the answer for "why not".
1Devilsadvocate
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10/16/2013 11:52:12 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/16/2013 11:29:20 AM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 10/16/2013 11:22:41 AM, 1Devilsadvocate wrote:
At 10/16/2013 8:18:58 AM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 10/16/2013 7:37:40 AM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:
Here's a hypothetical scenario. There is a man named Sam. Sam is a guy who is lonely and socially awkward. He has never had a girlfriend, probably never will, and he is a virgin. He also lives in a place where prostitution is rigidly outlawed, so that is not an option. Miserable from loneliness, rejection, and sexual deprivation, Sam decides to commit suicide. He comes up with a brilliant idea on how to perform the act painlessly. He knows of an old, abandoned fitness facility that has a full-size swimming pool. He will sneak in to the facility, fill the pool with water, and tie heavy weights to his ankles. He will then sit on the edge of the pool and shoot himself in the neck with a tranquilizer gun. He will fall asleep, the weights will drag him to the bottom of the pool, and Sam will simply drown in his sleep. As Sam enters the facility and goes to the pool to execute his plan, he is surprised to see that a very attractive young girl, named Susan, has already tried to perform the same suicide plan on herself. Susan had also stripped naked, deciding she wanted to die in the same condition in which she was born. However, the weights that Susan used to drag herself into the pool fell off, leaving her just lying unconscious by the pool. Watching her sleeping in the nude, Sam considers raping Susan. He knows the tranquilizer she had used on herself will keep her completely unconscious for at least a couple more hours. There are no active video cameras in the facility and there is no chance that anyone else will come into the facility to catch him in the act. Susan has no venereal diseases, and neither does Sam. Also, Susan is infertile, so there is no chance that Sam will give her an unwanted pregnancy. If Sam does rape Susan, she will never know that she had been raped and no legal action will ever come back to Sam. Sam feels that this situation is a dream come true and would give him a reason to live. Why shouldn't Sam rape Susan?

You are assuming that people only don't do wrong things our of fear of getting busted, this is not the case. Even if it was legal I wouldn't rape anyone, and being lonely and depressed is no excuse.

The question was why not, (not, "would you?"or "is it wrong?").

"Is it wrong" would provide the answer for "why not".

Well, from the moral nihilism POV, it wouldn't.
& if it is wrong, the question would be why.
I don't believe any of the responses here answered the original question.
I cannot write in English, because of the treacherous spelling. When I am reading, I only hear it and am unable to remember what the written word looks like."
"Albert Einstein

http://www.twainquotes.com... , http://thewritecorner.wordpress.com... , http://www.onlinecollegecourses.com...
dylancatlow
Posts: 12,253
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10/16/2013 11:58:27 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/16/2013 11:52:12 AM, 1Devilsadvocate wrote:
At 10/16/2013 11:29:20 AM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 10/16/2013 11:22:41 AM, 1Devilsadvocate wrote:
At 10/16/2013 8:18:58 AM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 10/16/2013 7:37:40 AM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:
Here's a hypothetical scenario. There is a man named Sam. Sam is a guy who is lonely and socially awkward. He has never had a girlfriend, probably never will, and he is a virgin. He also lives in a place where prostitution is rigidly outlawed, so that is not an option. Miserable from loneliness, rejection, and sexual deprivation, Sam decides to commit suicide. He comes up with a brilliant idea on how to perform the act painlessly. He knows of an old, abandoned fitness facility that has a full-size swimming pool. He will sneak in to the facility, fill the pool with water, and tie heavy weights to his ankles. He will then sit on the edge of the pool and shoot himself in the neck with a tranquilizer gun. He will fall asleep, the weights will drag him to the bottom of the pool, and Sam will simply drown in his sleep. As Sam enters the facility and goes to the pool to execute his plan, he is surprised to see that a very attractive young girl, named Susan, has already tried to perform the same suicide plan on herself. Susan had also stripped naked, deciding she wanted to die in the same condition in which she was born. However, the weights that Susan used to drag herself into the pool fell off, leaving her just lying unconscious by the pool. Watching her sleeping in the nude, Sam considers raping Susan. He knows the tranquilizer she had used on herself will keep her completely unconscious for at least a couple more hours. There are no active video cameras in the facility and there is no chance that anyone else will come into the facility to catch him in the act. Susan has no venereal diseases, and neither does Sam. Also, Susan is infertile, so there is no chance that Sam will give her an unwanted pregnancy. If Sam does rape Susan, she will never know that she had been raped and no legal action will ever come back to Sam. Sam feels that this situation is a dream come true and would give him a reason to live. Why shouldn't Sam rape Susan?

You are assuming that people only don't do wrong things our of fear of getting busted, this is not the case. Even if it was legal I wouldn't rape anyone, and being lonely and depressed is no excuse.

The question was why not, (not, "would you?"or "is it wrong?").

"Is it wrong" would provide the answer for "why not".

Well, from the moral nihilism POV, it wouldn't.
& if it is wrong, the question would be why.
I don't believe any of the responses here answered the original question.

From a moral nihilist POV, the fundamental answer is the same: a negation of the premise of both questions. And "why not" could be answered with "because it is immoral." Although that doesn't really get you anywhere lol.
Poetaster
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10/16/2013 2:41:15 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/16/2013 11:23:17 AM, 2-D wrote:
Really Poetaser? I havn't seen it yet!

Fourth-wall-violating twist: you actually have amnesia. The "alternate ending" with Mark Wahlberg caused this by replacing your memories of the movie with partially assembled melodies and passages of music which cause you spontaneous torment as you try in vain to remember the songs to which they belong. There are no such songs. The Architect hired Leonardo Dicaprio to implant them there, before inceptively planting the entire OP in Eitan_Zohar's mind.
"The book you are looking for hasn't been written yet. What you are looking for you are going to have to find yourself, it's not going to be in a book..." -Sidewalker
bossyburrito
Posts: 14,075
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10/16/2013 2:56:48 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
"Why shouldn't Sam rape Susan?"

Because Susan didn't consent?
#UnbanTheMadman

"Some will sell their dreams for small desires
Or lose the race to rats
Get caught in ticking traps
And start to dream of somewhere
To relax their restless flight
Somewhere out of a memory of lighted streets on quiet nights..."

~ Rush
Magic8000
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10/16/2013 3:12:43 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
No one wants to be raped. We have an objective survival instinct that causes us to avoid pain. Since Sam's instincts causes him not to want to be rape, then he wants to live in a society where rape is illegal. And so he must follow the rules.

You could say that maybe Sam wants to be raped, but that would be analytically false. It's like stating you're a meat eating herbivore.
404 coherent debate topic not found. Please restart the debate with clear resolution.

"So Magic8000 believes Einstein was a proctologist who was persuaded by the Government and Hitler to fabricate the Theory of Relativity"- GWL-CPA
dylancatlow
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10/16/2013 3:30:03 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/16/2013 2:41:15 PM, Poetaster wrote:
At 10/16/2013 11:23:17 AM, 2-D wrote:
Really Poetaser? I havn't seen it yet!

Fourth-wall-violating twist: you actually have amnesia. The "alternate ending" with Mark Wahlberg caused this by replacing your memories of the movie with partially assembled melodies and passages of music which cause you spontaneous torment as you try in vain to remember the songs to which they belong. There are no such songs. The Architect hired Leonardo Dicaprio to implant them there, before inceptively planting the entire OP in Eitan_Zohar's mind.

Does he get raped by plants?
dylancatlow
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10/16/2013 3:39:18 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/16/2013 2:56:48 PM, bossyburrito wrote:
"Why shouldn't Sam rape Susan?"

Because Susan didn't consent?

That's pretty much just saying: "Because it's rape."

You didn't address why this kind of rape is no different from ones which inflict measurable harm.
Poetaster
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10/16/2013 3:52:52 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/16/2013 3:30:03 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
Does he get raped by plants?

Well, not exactly: the plants extorted him into consenting to their treatment by promising him a ticket on Ray "Cyber-Noah" Kurzweil's ark, whose construction was funded by Oscorp to allow an elite few escape from The Happening. Upon boarding Cyber-Noah's Ark and settling in, he heard a knock on his room's door. Foolishly, he answered it naked, because he reasoned that society wasn't there to demand pants of him.

He was then raped by completely unrelated artificial plants (the kind you see in offices and lobbies).
"The book you are looking for hasn't been written yet. What you are looking for you are going to have to find yourself, it's not going to be in a book..." -Sidewalker
bossyburrito
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10/16/2013 3:53:09 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/16/2013 3:39:18 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 10/16/2013 2:56:48 PM, bossyburrito wrote:
"Why shouldn't Sam rape Susan?"

Because Susan didn't consent?

That's pretty much just saying: "Because it's rape."

You didn't address why this kind of rape is no different from ones which inflict measurable harm.

I don't think that the amount of measurable harm an act inflicts is relevant here. Susan has a right to her own body, and, as such, can decide what can be done to it.
#UnbanTheMadman

"Some will sell their dreams for small desires
Or lose the race to rats
Get caught in ticking traps
And start to dream of somewhere
To relax their restless flight
Somewhere out of a memory of lighted streets on quiet nights..."

~ Rush
dylancatlow
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10/16/2013 4:22:28 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/16/2013 3:52:52 PM, Poetaster wrote:
At 10/16/2013 3:30:03 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
Does he get raped by plants?

Well, not exactly: the plants extorted him into consenting to their treatment by promising him a ticket on Ray "Cyber-Noah" Kurzweil's ark, whose construction was funded by Oscorp to allow an elite few escape from The Happening. Upon boarding Cyber-Noah's Ark and settling in, he heard a knock on his room's door. Foolishly, he answered it naked, because he reasoned that society wasn't there to demand pants of him.

He was then raped by completely unrelated artificial plants (the kind you see in offices and lobbies).

You do not disappoint.
The_Fool_on_the_hill
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10/16/2013 5:54:53 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
"If Sam does rape Susan, she will never know that she had been raped and no legal action will ever come back to Sam. Sam feels that this situation is a dream come true and would give him a reason to live. Why shouldn't Sam rape Susan?"

Graincruncher: It is the problem with pure consequentialism and why no serious ethicists use it as an independently useful moral rule.

The Fool: Perhaps you meant utilitarianism?.....consequentialism, is a much broader ethics than simply utilitarianism.

Graincruncher: Had I meant utilitarianism - which I consider to be as flawed a moral basis as consequentialism - I would have said utilitarianism.

The Fool: well, wise one, there was reason, to wonder why one, wise one, as yourself, would give such a wishy washy answer, for one so wise, as yourself is, for yourself.

It's a very common assumption to conflate the two. Perhaps common enough, to justify making sure.
Thus the "question mark". And also the term "Perhaps".

How familiar are you with those terms?

<(8D)
Perhaps not so extreme..

Graincruncher: What I meant - and said - was consequentialism.

The Fool: I myself, believe you, but perhaps you did not believe yourself so much, since you had to tell yourself, even a third time.

<(89)

Graincruncher: I am extremely familiar with both and know the difference very well, thank you.

The Fool: Ah, Perhaps is my lack of "extreme" familiarity, and that I do not know them very well, as you do, Wise one. But you are welcome, for what pleasure my foolishness has given thou fourth.

Graincruncher: Do you have a response to what I"did"say?

The Fool: Ah, extremely knowing, and extremely wanting, you amiable one. My first foolish response, was a question, to what you did "in fact" say.

But one who knows what oneself means, should know this already, if such wise one, is responding to response. Or do you mean what you say? You thankful sir.

<(8D)

In fact, it was your wistful answer which exclaimed me, to claim to myself, and my monkey, "monkey morals"!

But my better half; my monkey, suggested to me, that perhaps I was mistaken, on your meaning. And we figured it, more polite, to inquire, if this was so.

Perhaps you can forgive us, with all your thankfulness. You grateful one.

But I do have one grain to crunch first"

That is your either your answers, in fact And any kind of answer to the question?

"Why shouldn't Sam rape Susan?"

Graincruncher: It is the problem with pure consequentialism and why no serious ethicists use it as an independently useful moral rule.

The Fool: You tell me Mr. Extreme, what school, or what professor, or what essay, would teach anybody to answer anything like that?

First of all, it's false that serious ethicists don't in fact, use it as a rule. It's not necessarily my position, but it's a pretty popular one.

Correct me if I'm wrong? but the assumption is that he cannot think of any negative consequences, but he can think positive ones from whence he cannot think of why he should not do it .

( Correct me if I'm wrong, as opposed to "create for yourself a new song")

But anybody, familiar, especially "extremely" familiar, to themselves both, and their differences, and for themselves, should have no problem grasping that an action, can synonymously be a consequence. And a consequence an action.

And so whatever reason, an action is or shares in what is good or bad, It can synonymously can be the consequence.. Which is right or wrong.

So if it is a matter of action, That's how easy, the position would be defended, by a consequentialist, if one wanted to give such a defense. And I am not so extremely familiar as yourself is to yourself, and even with consequentialism, you mighty crusher of grains.

For perhaps it is your answer, or biased teaching, you should seek your revenge, you vengeful one.

The Fool: Ah, but my monkey, is now telling me that this is perhaps not your full answer, and that you do actually, have a full adequate or final answer.

But, I, myself think, this is this is all monkey madness. But perhaps my monkey has a point, which possibly points at you. Do you have a better answer?
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
imabench
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10/19/2013 11:48:11 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/16/2013 7:37:40 AM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:
Here's a hypothetical scenario. There is a man named Sam. Sam is a guy who is lonely and socially awkward. He has never had a girlfriend, probably never will, and he is a virgin. He also lives in a place where prostitution is rigidly outlawed, so that is not an option. Miserable from loneliness, rejection, and sexual deprivation, Sam decides to commit suicide. He comes up with a brilliant idea on how to perform the act painlessly. He knows of an old, abandoned fitness facility that has a full-size swimming pool. He will sneak in to the facility, fill the pool with water, and tie heavy weights to his ankles. He will then sit on the edge of the pool and shoot himself in the neck with a tranquilizer gun. He will fall asleep, the weights will drag him to the bottom of the pool, and Sam will simply drown in his sleep. As Sam enters the facility and goes to the pool to execute his plan, he is surprised to see that a very attractive young girl, named Susan, has already tried to perform the same suicide plan on herself. Susan had also stripped naked, deciding she wanted to die in the same condition in which she was born. However, the weights that Susan used to drag herself into the pool fell off, leaving her just lying unconscious by the pool. Watching her sleeping in the nude, Sam considers raping Susan. He knows the tranquilizer she had used on herself will keep her completely unconscious for at least a couple more hours. There are no active video cameras in the facility and there is no chance that anyone else will come into the facility to catch him in the act. Susan has no venereal diseases, and neither does Sam. Also, Susan is infertile, so there is no chance that Sam will give her an unwanted pregnancy. If Sam does rape Susan, she will never know that she had been raped and no legal action will ever come back to Sam. Sam feels that this situation is a dream come true and would give him a reason to live. Why shouldn't Sam rape Susan?

You're asking why a guy shouldn't rape an unconscious and suicidal girl who will never know that she was raped......
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wrichcirw
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10/19/2013 12:18:21 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/16/2013 9:02:53 AM, The_Fool_on_the_hill wrote:
At 10/16/2013 7:56:57 AM, Graincruncher wrote:
If Sam does rape Susan, she will never know that she had been raped and no legal action will ever come back to Sam. Sam feels that this situation is a dream come true and would give him a reason to live. Why shouldn't Sam rape Susan?

It is the problem with pure consequentialism and why no serious ethicists use it as an independently useful moral rule.

The Fool: Perhaps you meant utilitarianism?.....consequentialism, is a much broader ethics than simply utilitarianism.

It's amazing, how nobody actually even attempted to answer the question.

Including you. =)

Monkey morals!
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
wrichcirw
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10/19/2013 12:21:29 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/16/2013 7:37:40 AM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:
Here's a hypothetical scenario. There is a man named Sam. Sam is a guy who is lonely and socially awkward. He has never had a girlfriend, probably never will, and he is a virgin. He also lives in a place where prostitution is rigidly outlawed, so that is not an option. Miserable from loneliness, rejection, and sexual deprivation, Sam decides to commit suicide. He comes up with a brilliant idea on how to perform the act painlessly. He knows of an old, abandoned fitness facility that has a full-size swimming pool. He will sneak in to the facility, fill the pool with water, and tie heavy weights to his ankles. He will then sit on the edge of the pool and shoot himself in the neck with a tranquilizer gun. He will fall asleep, the weights will drag him to the bottom of the pool, and Sam will simply drown in his sleep. As Sam enters the facility and goes to the pool to execute his plan, he is surprised to see that a very attractive young girl, named Susan, has already tried to perform the same suicide plan on herself. Susan had also stripped naked, deciding she wanted to die in the same condition in which she was born. However, the weights that Susan used to drag herself into the pool fell off, leaving her just lying unconscious by the pool. Watching her sleeping in the nude, Sam considers raping Susan. He knows the tranquilizer she had used on herself will keep her completely unconscious for at least a couple more hours. There are no active video cameras in the facility and there is no chance that anyone else will come into the facility to catch him in the act. Susan has no venereal diseases, and neither does Sam. Also, Susan is infertile, so there is no chance that Sam will give her an unwanted pregnancy. If Sam does rape Susan, she will never know that she had been raped and no legal action will ever come back to Sam. Sam feels that this situation is a dream come true and would give him a reason to live. Why shouldn't Sam rape Susan?

This scenario is a bunch of irrelevant smoke-and-mirrors that seek to ask one simple question: Is rape wrong?

So, why is rape wrong?

1) Tradition - virginity was highly prized in a woman (it could matter less in a man).
2) Violent act - rape is non-consensual sexual intercourse. The lack of consent makes it a crime, similar to someone not consenting to have open-heart surgery performed on him having the surgery performed on him nevertheless.
3) Sex, especially for a woman, has long-lasting consequences that go far beyond the few seconds/minutes/hours(!?!) of pleasure. Such a decision and act "should" be done with deliberation, and most certainly with consent.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
Eitan_Zohar
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10/19/2013 1:11:08 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/19/2013 12:21:29 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 10/16/2013 7:37:40 AM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:
Here's a hypothetical scenario. There is a man named Sam. Sam is a guy who is lonely and socially awkward. He has never had a girlfriend, probably never will, and he is a virgin. He also lives in a place where prostitution is rigidly outlawed, so that is not an option. Miserable from loneliness, rejection, and sexual deprivation, Sam decides to commit suicide. He comes up with a brilliant idea on how to perform the act painlessly. He knows of an old, abandoned fitness facility that has a full-size swimming pool. He will sneak in to the facility, fill the pool with water, and tie heavy weights to his ankles. He will then sit on the edge of the pool and shoot himself in the neck with a tranquilizer gun. He will fall asleep, the weights will drag him to the bottom of the pool, and Sam will simply drown in his sleep. As Sam enters the facility and goes to the pool to execute his plan, he is surprised to see that a very attractive young girl, named Susan, has already tried to perform the same suicide plan on herself. Susan had also stripped naked, deciding she wanted to die in the same condition in which she was born. However, the weights that Susan used to drag herself into the pool fell off, leaving her just lying unconscious by the pool. Watching her sleeping in the nude, Sam considers raping Susan. He knows the tranquilizer she had used on herself will keep her completely unconscious for at least a couple more hours. There are no active video cameras in the facility and there is no chance that anyone else will come into the facility to catch him in the act. Susan has no venereal diseases, and neither does Sam. Also, Susan is infertile, so there is no chance that Sam will give her an unwanted pregnancy. If Sam does rape Susan, she will never know that she had been raped and no legal action will ever come back to Sam. Sam feels that this situation is a dream come true and would give him a reason to live. Why shouldn't Sam rape Susan?

This scenario is a bunch of irrelevant smoke-and-mirrors that seek to ask one simple question: Is rape wrong?

So, why is rape wrong?

1) Tradition - virginity was highly prized in a woman (it could matter less in a man).

I didn't realize this story took place in Saudi Arabia.

2) Violent act - rape is non-consensual sexual intercourse. The lack of consent makes it a crime, similar to someone not consenting to have open-heart surgery performed on him having the surgery performed on him nevertheless.

Yes, it would certainly be a crime, but what makes it wrong?

3) Sex, especially for a woman, has long-lasting consequences that go far beyond the few seconds/minutes/hours(!?!) of pleasure. Such a decision and act "should" be done with deliberation, and most certainly with consent.

Anything you can think of besides diseases and/or pregnancy (both of which were ruled out in the OP)?
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