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What exactly is dangerous about Nietzsche?

Eitan_Zohar
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11/6/2013 7:30:33 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I've heard a lot about this, and I'm wondering where exactly people tend to go wrong when reading him.
"It is my ambition to say in ten sentences what others say in a whole book."
Sidewalker
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11/6/2013 7:59:07 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/6/2013 7:30:33 PM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:
I've heard a lot about this, and I'm wondering where exactly people tend to go wrong when reading him.

Nietzsche wrote in a compelling style, it's easy to become infatuated with his prose, and he argued that men are driven by a "Will to Power" that subordinates ethics to domination. He argued that superior men will dispense with traditional morality and implement morals that support and sustain dominance over others.

"Life itself is essentially appropriation, injury, overpowering of the strange and weaker, suppression, severity, imposition of one"s own forms, incorporation and, at the least and mildest, exploitation" - Friedrich Nietzsche

http://en.wikipedia.org...
"It is one of the commonest of mistakes to consider that the limit of our power of perception is also the limit of all there is to perceive." " C. W. Leadbeater
Eitan_Zohar
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11/6/2013 8:59:11 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/6/2013 7:59:07 PM, Sidewalker wrote:
At 11/6/2013 7:30:33 PM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:
I've heard a lot about this, and I'm wondering where exactly people tend to go wrong when reading him.

Nietzsche wrote in a compelling style, it's easy to become infatuated with his prose, and he argued that men are driven by a "Will to Power" that subordinates ethics to domination. He argued that superior men will dispense with traditional morality and implement morals that support and sustain dominance over others.

"Life itself is essentially appropriation, injury, overpowering of the strange and weaker, suppression, severity, imposition of one"s own forms, incorporation and, at the least and mildest, exploitation" - Friedrich Nietzsche

http://en.wikipedia.org...

OK, I really want to know why both Zionist and fascist leaders followed this guy.
"It is my ambition to say in ten sentences what others say in a whole book."
SovereignDream
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11/6/2013 9:33:33 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/6/2013 7:30:33 PM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:
I've heard a lot about this, and I'm wondering where exactly people tend to go wrong when reading him.

Is it that he thinks that morality is just a handy social fiction? That would be my guess.
bossyburrito
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11/6/2013 10:28:30 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
He's one of the most powerful and compelling writers to have ever existed, and his ideas advocate death. He doesn't even hide it, either.

10/10.
#UnbanTheMadman

"Some will sell their dreams for small desires
Or lose the race to rats
Get caught in ticking traps
And start to dream of somewhere
To relax their restless flight
Somewhere out of a memory of lighted streets on quiet nights..."

~ Rush
Eitan_Zohar
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11/7/2013 5:58:55 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
I found more genuine wisdom going through a bunch of Nietzsche quotes than I have anywhere else.
"It is my ambition to say in ten sentences what others say in a whole book."
Sidewalker
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11/7/2013 8:22:18 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/7/2013 5:58:55 AM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:
I found more genuine wisdom going through a bunch of Nietzsche quotes than I have anywhere else.

Yep, as FREEDO pointed out, he resonates with maniacs.
"It is one of the commonest of mistakes to consider that the limit of our power of perception is also the limit of all there is to perceive." " C. W. Leadbeater
Charos
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11/7/2013 5:51:56 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Very simply put, Nietzsche's philosophy was one of the first arguing to not think like him, but to think and decide for yourself on questions of morality. That concept in itself can be horrifically dangerous to a lot of people. If you're an aristocrat or in the upper echelon in his era (or ours for that matter) and you have someone telling the average person in the street "ignore them, don't listen to them, listen to YOU and follow your own heart", that sets up a real risky paradigm.
*+_Charos_+*

"Verily, I have often laughed at weaklings
who thought themselves good because
they had no claws"
--Nietzsche
Stephen_Hawkins
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11/7/2013 7:03:33 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/6/2013 10:31:36 PM, FREEDO wrote:
Because he is vague and therefor open to the interpretation of maniacs.

This. Nietzsche wrote in aphorisms in his later life that had meanings that are (not were, but are) warped by readers to fit modern society. It is done as well to older writers, but none to such a degree as Nietzsche. Moreover, he concocted an ethical system which resonated with the popular eugenics and social darwinism of his age, making him popular. Finally, this combined with the "will to power" allowed vague nonsense to class as insightful history.
Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day. Teach him how to be Gay, he'll positively influence the GDP.

Social Contract Theory debate: http://www.debate.org...
OMGJustinBieber
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11/7/2013 9:57:34 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
"What belongs to greatness - Who will attain anything great if he does not find in himself the strength and the will to inflict great suffering? Being able to suffer is the least thing; weak women and even slaves often achieve virtuosity in that. But not to perish of internal distress and uncertainty when one inflicts great suffering and hears the cry of this suffering - that is great, that belongs to greatness." (Gay Science, Book 4 325).

nbd; seems like a chill guy.
YYW
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11/7/2013 9:59:48 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/6/2013 7:30:33 PM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:
I've heard a lot about this, and I'm wondering where exactly people tend to go wrong when reading him.

There is a tendency to read into Nietzsche something that isn't there, but would ostensibly appear to be, if you read Nietzsche verse by verse rather than try to understand what his life's work means as a whole. This is, of course, more a reflection on the reader than on Nietzsche, but it's not an uncommon thing to do.
Tsar of DDO
Eitan_Zohar
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11/7/2013 10:18:36 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/7/2013 9:59:48 PM, YYW wrote:
At 11/6/2013 7:30:33 PM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:
I've heard a lot about this, and I'm wondering where exactly people tend to go wrong when reading him.

There is a tendency to read into Nietzsche something that isn't there, but would ostensibly appear to be, if you read Nietzsche verse by verse rather than try to understand what his life's work means as a whole. This is, of course, more a reflection on the reader than on Nietzsche, but it's not an uncommon thing to do.

Like what? I want yer opinion.
"It is my ambition to say in ten sentences what others say in a whole book."
YYW
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11/7/2013 10:25:14 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/7/2013 10:18:36 PM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:
At 11/7/2013 9:59:48 PM, YYW wrote:
At 11/6/2013 7:30:33 PM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:
I've heard a lot about this, and I'm wondering where exactly people tend to go wrong when reading him.

There is a tendency to read into Nietzsche something that isn't there, but would ostensibly appear to be, if you read Nietzsche verse by verse rather than try to understand what his life's work means as a whole. This is, of course, more a reflection on the reader than on Nietzsche, but it's not an uncommon thing to do.

Like what? I want yer opinion.

Morality is for the weak, and the weak may be exploited.
Humans can be inferior and it is justified to exploit them because of their inferiority.
Power is self-legitimizing.

etc.
Tsar of DDO
Eitan_Zohar
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11/7/2013 10:31:14 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
And yet he didn't really believe those things?
"It is my ambition to say in ten sentences what others say in a whole book."
YYW
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11/7/2013 10:33:12 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/7/2013 10:31:14 PM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:
And yet he didn't really believe those things?

That wasn't the whole picture.

Btw., do me a favor... when Noumena says "yer" instead of one of "your" or "you're" it drives me mad. In the interest of preserving my sanity, avoid doing this in the future.
Tsar of DDO
OMGJustinBieber
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11/7/2013 10:34:17 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/7/2013 10:25:14 PM, YYW wrote:
At 11/7/2013 10:18:36 PM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:
At 11/7/2013 9:59:48 PM, YYW wrote:
At 11/6/2013 7:30:33 PM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:
I've heard a lot about this, and I'm wondering where exactly people tend to go wrong when reading him.

There is a tendency to read into Nietzsche something that isn't there, but would ostensibly appear to be, if you read Nietzsche verse by verse rather than try to understand what his life's work means as a whole. This is, of course, more a reflection on the reader than on Nietzsche, but it's not an uncommon thing to do.

Like what? I want yer opinion.

Morality is for the weak, and the weak may be exploited.
Humans can be inferior and it is justified to exploit them because of their inferiority.
Power is self-legitimizing.

etc.

All right, my opinion has softened on Nietzsche a little but come on...you're telling me not to look to his verses if I want to understand him? It's like you're handling him with child's gloves here; when was the last time someone told you not towards Kant's or Russell's writing if you want to understand the thinker in question? There are parts in Nietzsche that I can see sense in, but I wouldn't call myself a Nietzschean if I wasn't comfortable with his verses.
YYW
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11/7/2013 10:39:31 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/7/2013 10:34:17 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
At 11/7/2013 10:25:14 PM, YYW wrote:
At 11/7/2013 10:18:36 PM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:
At 11/7/2013 9:59:48 PM, YYW wrote:
At 11/6/2013 7:30:33 PM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:
I've heard a lot about this, and I'm wondering where exactly people tend to go wrong when reading him.

There is a tendency to read into Nietzsche something that isn't there, but would ostensibly appear to be, if you read Nietzsche verse by verse rather than try to understand what his life's work means as a whole. This is, of course, more a reflection on the reader than on Nietzsche, but it's not an uncommon thing to do.

Like what? I want yer opinion.

Morality is for the weak, and the weak may be exploited.
Humans can be inferior and it is justified to exploit them because of their inferiority.
Power is self-legitimizing.

etc.

All right, my opinion has softened on Nietzsche a little but come on...you're telling me not to look to his verses if I want to understand him? It's like you're handling him with child's gloves here; when was the last time someone told you not towards Kant's or Russell's writing if you want to understand the thinker in question? There are parts in Nietzsche that I can see sense in, but I wouldn't call myself a Nietzschean if I wasn't comfortable with his verses.

Nietzsche is a special case. Neither Kant nor Bertie wrote like Nietzsche... nor were their messages so well designed to mislead. Much as I hate to say it, Nietzsche is like the philosophical troll of his time... he wrote things to lead the naive astray, and he was brilliantly effective at it... adolescent boys who read Nietzsche, especially.
Tsar of DDO
YYW
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11/7/2013 10:44:57 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
But I'm glad your view of Nietzsche has softened. If you want to soften it even more, I have a book you might like to read.
Tsar of DDO
Sidewalker
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11/8/2013 4:59:24 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/7/2013 10:18:36 PM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:
At 11/7/2013 9:59:48 PM, YYW wrote:
At 11/6/2013 7:30:33 PM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:
I've heard a lot about this, and I'm wondering where exactly people tend to go wrong when reading him.

There is a tendency to read into Nietzsche something that isn't there, but would ostensibly appear to be, if you read Nietzsche verse by verse rather than try to understand what his life's work means as a whole. This is, of course, more a reflection on the reader than on Nietzsche, but it's not an uncommon thing to do.

Like what? I want yer opinion.

The most glaring example would be what Hitler and the Nazi's did with his ideas of course.

Nietzsche was vehemently opposed to both anti-Semitism and German Nationalism; in ranting against both he used a dialectic filled with anti-Semitic rhetoric as a device to insult those with anti-Semitic sentiments. I think it's resoundingly clear that Hitler and the Nazis missed that subtlety completely. He also railed vehemently against Priestly Judaism, somewhat in the manner of the great Jewish Prophets that called for the cleansing of their beloved Judaism, but in the unhinged minds of Hitler and his Nazi party this became justification for a demonization of the Jews and call for an associated ethnic cleansing.

Even today nobody really understands what he meant by the "Ubermensch" or Superhuman idea, it was some kind of goal beyond the limits of ordinary humanity, but in the hands of Hitler and the Nazis it became the National Socialist idea of a biologically superior "Aryan" or Germanic master race and combined with a madman's misinterpretation of his rants against anti-Semitism and Priestly Judaism, it became a eugenic justification for the Holocaust.
"It is one of the commonest of mistakes to consider that the limit of our power of perception is also the limit of all there is to perceive." " C. W. Leadbeater
Sidewalker
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11/8/2013 5:56:03 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/6/2013 8:59:11 PM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:
At 11/6/2013 7:59:07 PM, Sidewalker wrote:
At 11/6/2013 7:30:33 PM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:
I've heard a lot about this, and I'm wondering where exactly people tend to go wrong when reading him.

Nietzsche wrote in a compelling style, it's easy to become infatuated with his prose, and he argued that men are driven by a "Will to Power" that subordinates ethics to domination. He argued that superior men will dispense with traditional morality and implement morals that support and sustain dominance over others.

"Life itself is essentially appropriation, injury, overpowering of the strange and weaker, suppression, severity, imposition of one"s own forms, incorporation and, at the least and mildest, exploitation" - Friedrich Nietzsche

http://en.wikipedia.org...

OK, I really want to know why both Zionist and fascist leaders followed this guy.

Put it in historical perspective, the Nazi's hadn't done what they did yet when people like Herzl and Buber embraced Nietzsche's ideas. Prior to the Holocaust Zionism was more of a moral crusade than it was about Palestine, it was more about establishing a new, stronger image of what it meant to be an authentic Jew, it was about cultivating a new Jewish Identity in the face of 2500 years of anti-Semitism and oppression. Recognize also that early Zionism grew up in an era when Nietzsche's ideas practically dominated European intellectual discourse, and at the risk of appearing less than politically correct, I'll also say that it was an era when European intellectual discourse, about philosophy at least, was dominated by Jewish intellectuals. The single intellectual that probably did the most to popularize Nietzsche's ideas was Georg Brandes, whose birth name was Morris Kohen, a strong argument can be made that it was the critical thinking of the Jewish Intellectual community at the turn of the century that made Nietzsche famous in the first place.

Nietzsche saw the Jewish people as instrumental catalysts for his requisite transition to a higher humanity in terms of psychology and culture, a strong motivation behind his condemnation of Priestly Judaism was a desire to see the end of Judaism's ethnic exclusivity to their superior cultural and ethical values, and he absolutely hated the way Christianity did it. In that context, Nietzsche's vehemence against anti-Semitism and his uncompromising condemnation of Priestly Judaism in the tradition of the greatest Jewish Prophets would certainly resonate with early Zionists. His message was particularly powerful to any revolutionary looking to bring about social change by strengthening a groups identity, with the "Will to Power" and his call to throw off the past and overcome anti-Semitism after 2,500 years of living with it, it's no surprise at all that the early Zionists embraced his ideas.

If you want to deep dive into the issue, see if you can find an affordable copy and read Jacob Golomb"s "Nietzsche and Zion" .
"It is one of the commonest of mistakes to consider that the limit of our power of perception is also the limit of all there is to perceive." " C. W. Leadbeater
Eitan_Zohar
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11/8/2013 6:46:39 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Often I just click through these quotes because they're so fvcking wonderful: http://www.brainyquote.com...

How could someone not like Nietzsche?
"It is my ambition to say in ten sentences what others say in a whole book."
Sidewalker
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11/8/2013 11:42:51 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/8/2013 6:46:39 AM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:
Often I just click through these quotes because they're so fvcking wonderful: http://www.brainyquote.com...

How could someone not like Nietzsche?

It's easy.

Trust me, Nietzsche's beauty is only skin deep, jumping in is an exercise in style over substance, and most people that get caught up in it end up going down some dark alleys. It certainly has an alluring quality and it's very easy to get caught up in it, especially at your age, but in the end there's hardly any positive outcomes from those who embraced his philosophy, and some big horrific ones. At best, the day will come when you'll look back on it as time wasted.
"It is one of the commonest of mistakes to consider that the limit of our power of perception is also the limit of all there is to perceive." " C. W. Leadbeater
Charos
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11/8/2013 3:03:43 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/8/2013 11:42:51 AM, Sidewalker wrote:
At 11/8/2013 6:46:39 AM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:
Often I just click through these quotes because they're so fvcking wonderful: http://www.brainyquote.com...

How could someone not like Nietzsche?

It's easy.

Trust me, Nietzsche's beauty is only skin deep, jumping in is an exercise in style over substance, and most people that get caught up in it end up going down some dark alleys. It certainly has an alluring quality and it's very easy to get caught up in it, especially at your age, but in the end there's hardly any positive outcomes from those who embraced his philosophy, and some big horrific ones. At best, the day will come when you'll look back on it as time wasted.

That's a bit of an overarching statement, I'm quite a fan of Nietzsche, never once have I felt my time studying him to be a waste and I'm in my mid-30's. I can completely understand someone not finding his philosophy compelling, but his immense influence on modern thought is undeniable, without him and Schoppenhauer we wouldn't have Existentialism as we know it. Even the people I know who are directly opposed to his philosophy generally will conceded that fact. He's generally mentioned in the same breath as people like Plato, Aquinas or Kant as among the greatest thinkers of all time.
*+_Charos_+*

"Verily, I have often laughed at weaklings
who thought themselves good because
they had no claws"
--Nietzsche
Sidewalker
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11/8/2013 3:55:56 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/8/2013 3:03:43 PM, Charos wrote:
At 11/8/2013 11:42:51 AM, Sidewalker wrote:
At 11/8/2013 6:46:39 AM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:
Often I just click through these quotes because they're so fvcking wonderful: http://www.brainyquote.com...

How could someone not like Nietzsche?

It's easy.

Trust me, Nietzsche's beauty is only skin deep, jumping in is an exercise in style over substance, and most people that get caught up in it end up going down some dark alleys. It certainly has an alluring quality and it's very easy to get caught up in it, especially at your age, but in the end there's hardly any positive outcomes from those who embraced his philosophy, and some big horrific ones. At best, the day will come when you'll look back on it as time wasted.

That's a bit of an overarching statement, I'm quite a fan of Nietzsche, never once have I felt my time studying him to be a waste and I'm in my mid-30's. I can completely understand someone not finding his philosophy compelling, but his immense influence on modern thought is undeniable, without him and Schoppenhauer we wouldn't have Existentialism as we know it.

Schopenhauer? You mean Nietzsche and Kierkegaard don't you?

Even the people I know who are directly opposed to his philosophy generally will conceded that fact. He's generally mentioned in the same breath as people like Plato, Aquinas or Kant as among the greatest thinkers of all time.

As an intellectual interest maybe, but very few really feel his philosophy has enriched their life or anything like that.
"It is one of the commonest of mistakes to consider that the limit of our power of perception is also the limit of all there is to perceive." " C. W. Leadbeater
Charos
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11/8/2013 6:27:43 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/8/2013 3:55:56 PM, Sidewalker wrote:
At 11/8/2013 3:03:43 PM, Charos wrote:
At 11/8/2013 11:42:51 AM, Sidewalker wrote:
At 11/8/2013 6:46:39 AM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:
Often I just click through these quotes because they're so fvcking wonderful: http://www.brainyquote.com...

How could someone not like Nietzsche?

It's easy.

Trust me, Nietzsche's beauty is only skin deep, jumping in is an exercise in style over substance, and most people that get caught up in it end up going down some dark alleys. It certainly has an alluring quality and it's very easy to get caught up in it, especially at your age, but in the end there's hardly any positive outcomes from those who embraced his philosophy, and some big horrific ones. At best, the day will come when you'll look back on it as time wasted.

That's a bit of an overarching statement, I'm quite a fan of Nietzsche, never once have I felt my time studying him to be a waste and I'm in my mid-30's. I can completely understand someone not finding his philosophy compelling, but his immense influence on modern thought is undeniable, without him and Schoppenhauer we wouldn't have Existentialism as we know it.

Schopenhauer? You mean Nietzsche and Kierkegaard don't you?

I did :) that's what I get for posting after working all night...apologies.

Even the people I know who are directly opposed to his philosophy generally will conceded that fact. He's generally mentioned in the same breath as people like Plato, Aquinas or Kant as among the greatest thinkers of all time.

As an intellectual interest maybe, but very few really feel his philosophy has enriched their life or anything like that.

*shrug* he enriched mine well enough, Dewdney, Sartre, Derrida, Heidegger, Camus, Adler, Freud, Jung even many of the great modern artists like Morrison, Hesse, Mann, Yeats, Bernard Shaw and so on list him as a central inspiration to many of their works. I can get people not liking him, but one can't really deny the incredible effect he's had in shaping modern thought. His primary battle cry of "don't let them think for you, think for yourself" has become almost a subtext of all of western civilization.
*+_Charos_+*

"Verily, I have often laughed at weaklings
who thought themselves good because
they had no claws"
--Nietzsche
Sidewalker
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11/9/2013 6:47:39 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/8/2013 6:27:43 PM, Charos wrote:
At 11/8/2013 3:55:56 PM, Sidewalker wrote:
At 11/8/2013 3:03:43 PM, Charos wrote:
At 11/8/2013 11:42:51 AM, Sidewalker wrote:
At 11/8/2013 6:46:39 AM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:
Often I just click through these quotes because they're so fvcking wonderful: http://www.brainyquote.com...

How could someone not like Nietzsche?

It's easy.

Trust me, Nietzsche's beauty is only skin deep, jumping in is an exercise in style over substance, and most people that get caught up in it end up going down some dark alleys. It certainly has an alluring quality and it's very easy to get caught up in it, especially at your age, but in the end there's hardly any positive outcomes from those who embraced his philosophy, and some big horrific ones. At best, the day will come when you'll look back on it as time wasted.

That's a bit of an overarching statement, I'm quite a fan of Nietzsche, never once have I felt my time studying him to be a waste and I'm in my mid-30's. I can completely understand someone not finding his philosophy compelling, but his immense influence on modern thought is undeniable, without him and Schoppenhauer we wouldn't have Existentialism as we know it.

Schopenhauer? You mean Nietzsche and Kierkegaard don't you?

I did :) that's what I get for posting after working all night...apologies.

Even the people I know who are directly opposed to his philosophy generally will conceded that fact. He's generally mentioned in the same breath as people like Plato, Aquinas or Kant as among the greatest thinkers of all time.

As an intellectual interest maybe, but very few really feel his philosophy has enriched their life or anything like that.

*shrug* he enriched mine well enough, Dewdney, Sartre, Derrida, Heidegger, Camus, Adler, Freud, Jung even many of the great modern artists like Morrison, Hesse, Mann, Yeats, Bernard Shaw and so on list him as a central inspiration to many of their works. I can get people not liking him, but one can't really deny the incredible effect he's had in shaping modern thought. His primary battle cry of "don't let them think for you, think for yourself" has become almost a subtext of all of western civilization.

I recognize that he's influential, but I don't necessarily think it's been much of a positive influence, I go so far as to say a great deal of what is wrong with the world today is influenced by Nietzsche. I just don't see how you can judge a philosophy without looking at the practical implications of the system of thought it expresses, particularly as it relates to where it will lead. With the Eugenics movement of the early 1900s and the Holocaust under it's belt, it's kind of hard to have much respect for this particular system of thought. Also, put my comments in context, and recognize the audience I was addressing, the thread started with a young Jew asking why Nietzsche is considered dangerous, then it went to him telling us he is enamored with Nietzsche from what he read in BrainyQuotes, he's just beginning to read philosophy, do you really think Nietzsche is a good place for him to start?

It's interesting you mentioned Freud, if you really want me to shock your intellectual sensibilities, let's talk Freud, I can crap all over him all day long if you want :)

In and of themselves, smart and influential don't automatically deserve respect, what you have to say should figure into it.
"It is one of the commonest of mistakes to consider that the limit of our power of perception is also the limit of all there is to perceive." " C. W. Leadbeater
Graincruncher
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11/9/2013 6:59:21 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/8/2013 6:46:39 AM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:
Often I just click through these quotes because they're so fvcking wonderful: http://www.brainyquote.com...

How could someone not like Nietzsche?

Because he was a self-absorbed blowhard who was as likely to say something for attention as he was because he thought it. I'd rather stick pins in my eyes than drag myself through TSZ again. To be honest, I think he sits right out on the fringe of philosophy, in the grey area often labelled 'mystic'. The trick is to make the reader do the thinking for you and essentially just make them feel impressed with themselves for 'figuring it out'.

Which is not to say that he wrote nothing of worth. Just not much, not well and all the while hanging around with such lovely people as Wagner. While the Nazis certainly warped him heavily, I think claims that really he was strongly against their more overt messages is pretty much dispelled if you look at his life and who he decided to associate with.