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Procreation is immoral

johnaus
Posts: 1
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11/14/2013 6:07:56 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Procreation is imoral because life is filled with suffering.I's morally wrong to inflict suffering on people therefore it's immoral to procreate.

Parents always have children to satistify their needs at the cost of gambling with their lives. There is Always a chance of creating miserable lives, therefore having children is selfish and unethical.
Sidewalker
Posts: 3,713
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11/14/2013 8:08:42 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/14/2013 6:07:56 PM, johnaus wrote:
Procreation is imoral because life is filled with suffering.I's morally wrong to inflict suffering on people therefore it's immoral to procreate.

Parents always have children to satistify their needs at the cost of gambling with their lives. There is Always a chance of creating miserable lives, therefore having children is selfish and unethical.

Having a bad day?
"It is one of the commonest of mistakes to consider that the limit of our power of perception is also the limit of all there is to perceive." " C. W. Leadbeater
Disquisition
Posts: 391
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11/14/2013 9:09:17 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/14/2013 6:07:56 PM, johnaus wrote:
Procreation is imoral because life is filled with suffering.I's morally wrong to inflict suffering on people therefore it's immoral to procreate.

Parents always have children to satistify their needs at the cost of gambling with their lives. There is Always a chance of creating miserable lives, therefore having children is selfish and unethical.

How is procreation inherently wrong, you wouldn't even be typing this slippery slope fallacy if our ancestors thought that.
YYW
Posts: 36,364
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11/14/2013 9:11:34 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/14/2013 6:07:56 PM, johnaus wrote:
Procreation is imoral because life is filled with suffering.I's morally wrong to inflict suffering on people therefore it's immoral to procreate.

Parents always have children to satistify their needs at the cost of gambling with their lives. There is Always a chance of creating miserable lives, therefore having children is selfish and unethical.

I guess gay is the only moral way to go, then.

lol
Tsar of DDO
zmikecuber
Posts: 4,093
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11/15/2013 12:54:41 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/14/2013 6:07:56 PM, johnaus wrote:
Procreation is imoral because life is filled with suffering.I's morally wrong to inflict suffering on people therefore it's immoral to procreate.

Parents always have children to satistify their needs at the cost of gambling with their lives. There is Always a chance of creating miserable lives, therefore having children is selfish and unethical.

Procreating doesn't inflict suffering on anyone, since that "someone" doesn't exist prior to procreation...
"Delete your fvcking sig" -1hard

"primal man had the habit, when he came into contact with fire, of satisfying the infantile desire connected with it, by putting it out with a stream of his urine... Putting out the fire by micturating was therefore a kind of sexual act with a male, an enjoyment of sexual potency in a homosexual competition."
themohawkninja
Posts: 816
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11/15/2013 3:40:10 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/14/2013 9:09:17 PM, Disquisition wrote:
At 11/14/2013 6:07:56 PM, johnaus wrote:
Procreation is imoral because life is filled with suffering.I's morally wrong to inflict suffering on people therefore it's immoral to procreate.

Parents always have children to satistify their needs at the cost of gambling with their lives. There is Always a chance of creating miserable lives, therefore having children is selfish and unethical.

How is procreation inherently wrong, you wouldn't even be typing this slippery slope fallacy if our ancestors thought that.

I don't see a slippery slope fallacy in that.

1. Procreation is imoral because life is filled with suffering.
2. [It's] morally wrong to inflict suffering on people
3. Therefore it's immoral to procreate.

That's just says that if A [procreation] is wrong because B [life is filled with suffering], and C [inflicting suffering is immoral], and therefore since A causes C, A is immoral.

In the other paragraph.

1. Parents always have children to satistify their needs at the cost of gambling with their lives.
2. There is Always a chance of creating miserable lives
3. Therefore having children is selfish and unethical.

This says that A [parents satisfy needs at the risk of their lives], and B [chance of creating miserable lives], then C [having children is selfish].

Neither of those would qualify as a slippery slope.
"Morals are simply a limit to man's potential."~Myself

Political correctness is like saying you can't have a steak, because a baby can't eat one ~Unknown
themohawkninja
Posts: 816
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11/15/2013 3:43:31 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/14/2013 6:07:56 PM, johnaus wrote:
Procreation is imoral because life is filled with suffering.I's morally wrong to inflict suffering on people therefore it's immoral to procreate.

As much as what I am about to say is a logical fallacy, it does work in this case. Without life there is no suffering, but without life, you can't exist to discuss this topic. Debating about the morality of procreation is essence leads to a quasi-grandfather paradox.

Parents always have children to satistify their needs at the cost of gambling with their lives. There is Always a chance of creating miserable lives, therefore having children is selfish and unethical.

Parents don't always gamble with their lives by having children, and having children isn't a need. You can live a life without bearing children (which btw, I intend to do, and I can assure you that it won't be the death of me, but rather it might just be the exact opposite).
"Morals are simply a limit to man's potential."~Myself

Political correctness is like saying you can't have a steak, because a baby can't eat one ~Unknown
marcusmoon
Posts: 12
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11/17/2013 3:09:54 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
It is interesting that the participants so far have

a) Assumed that creating opportunities for suffering (selfish/immoral) trumps creating opportunities for pleasure, growth, and excitement, all of which accompany suffering as parts of life.
b) Assumed the primary victims of a birth are those who are born, not all the billions of sentient beings already here.

I propose that
1-Most human births are the unintentional results of coitus.
2-These results are foreseeable, though not guaranteed.
3-These results are preventable by multiple means in addition to abstention from coitus.
4-Carelessness is immoral (axiom).
5-Because of 1, 2, 3, & 4, Unintentional reproduction is immoral.

6-Many reasons people want to reproduce are selfish and self-serving (take care of them in their old age, carry on the family name, bring them honor and prestige).
7-Regardless of the result, selfishness is immoral (axiom)
8-Because of 6 & 7, Intentional reproduction for selfish reasons is immoral.

9-Many reasons people want to reproduce are selfless, but are based on ignorance and folly. (the world needs humans to continue as a species, my religious beliefs tell me to reproduce more believers, my progeny will make the world better through their accomplishments, my DNA is too wonderful to lose, etc.)
10-We know that too many things are required for a baby to become an adult for anyone to predict before conception what the adult will turn out to be, or whether it will fulfill these selfless parental intentions.
11-Our own folly and ignorance is predictable.
12-Willfully acting in a way that disregards known risks, folly, and ignorance is careless.
13-Because of 4, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, even reproducing for selfless reasons is immoral.

Conclusion: Because of 5, 8, & 13, Procreation is immoral.

I know this has a lot of holes, but it is the best I could do on a first draft.
InvictusManeo
Posts: 384
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11/17/2013 4:26:19 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Why is selfishness immoral? This is an imposed axiom that is baseless in it's assertion that anything remotely selfish is wrong. Selfishness is necessary, and good. While you can of course argue that selfish actions carried out against humans at large to their detriment is morally wrong, whether that harm is direct or indirect is an important distinction to make when staking a moral claim. The indirect harm inflicted upon humanity at large when two people have children with regards to, say, overpopulation, while immoral in a nebulous sense is conversely moral for those two people in furthering their genetic interest.

Acting carelessly (and in this case the carelessness resulting in an unwanted pregnancy), is immoral, however it can be argued that the careless action to have unprotected sex is not in fact careless in so far as we are driven to compulsion for high-risk sex for the rewards it offers (i.e. pleasure and the chance of offspring). There's a reason why so many women fall pregnant 'by accident' - their subconscious drives them to act carelessly in their best interest.

Whether or not the act of reproducing is immoral or not, comes down to really ___ options:

(1) Will one or both of these people who decide to procreate know with any level of certainty that their child will be born deformed or ill in some way (say for example the woman has Huntington's disease)?

(2) Are the people who procreate dysfunctional in some way prior to reproducing? And if this dysfunction is systemic in nature, for example, abusive and/or mentally challenged so as to pose a threat to others?

(3) Do the parents have enough resources and the means to rear their subsequent offspring appropriately and for the best interest? (as in will this child be at risk of falling into the hands of the state).

If the answer to the above three scenarios is a resounding no, then I do not see the act (whether planned or unplanned) as immoral and I can not see a logical reason as to why it should be, unless you consider contributing to overpopulation a directly immoral act. Then I can perhaps see your argument.
marcusmoon
Posts: 12
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11/18/2013 6:32:44 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/17/2013 4:26:19 PM, InvictusManeo wrote:
Why is selfishness immoral? This is an imposed axiom that is baseless in it's assertion that anything remotely selfish is wrong. Selfishness is necessary, and good. While you can of course argue that selfish actions carried out against humans at large to their detriment is morally wrong, whether that harm is direct or indirect is an important distinction to make when staking a moral claim. The indirect harm inflicted upon humanity at large when two people have children with regards to, say, overpopulation, while immoral in a nebulous sense is conversely moral for those two people in furthering their genetic interest.

Acting carelessly (and in this case the carelessness resulting in an unwanted pregnancy), is immoral, however it can be argued that the careless action to have unprotected sex is not in fact careless in so far as we are driven to compulsion for high-risk sex for the rewards it offers (i.e. pleasure and the chance of offspring). There's a reason why so many women fall pregnant 'by accident' - their subconscious drives them to act carelessly in their best interest.

InvictusManeo,
You are right, of course, to question my axioms that selfishness and carelessness are immoral. I merely grabbed them from my upbringing, which also included the sinfulness of cruelty and needless infliction of suffering. All questions of morality require the introduction of some set of arbitrary definitions as to what constitutes right/wrong, good/evil, etc. The knee-jerk tendency is to call them 'axiomatic', when what we really mean is 'assumed' or 'based-on-the-prejudices-and-superstitions-I-was taught-as-a-child'.

I am not a fan of morality (which is based on these assumptions, often 'delivered by God'), precisely because of this problem. I am more a fan of a concept of ethics that begins with a desired end or an aesthetic, and then builds a consistent set of behaviors that brings that end or aesthetic to fruition in a person's life. This, however would not work for this discussion, because it presupposes an end. Whether I favor procreation or not, I could merely build my ethics to support that end.
tezcatlipoca
Posts: 2
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8/21/2015 2:55:50 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/15/2013 12:54:41 PM, zmikecuber wrote:
At 11/14/2013 6:07:56 PM, johnaus wrote:
Procreation is imoral because life is filled with suffering.I's morally wrong to inflict suffering on people therefore it's immoral to procreate.

Parents always have children to satistify their needs at the cost of gambling with their lives. There is Always a chance of creating miserable lives, therefore having children is selfish and unethical.

Procreating doesn't inflict suffering on anyone, since that "someone" doesn't exist prior to procreation...

Obviously the act it self does not immediately inflict pain on an unborn person because they don't exist yet. However, it does set a non-existing person up for pain in the future after they have been born. Many responsible people who have a history of genetic disease consult with a doctor before having a child because they understand this idea that they can set their child up for a painful future. I think that is what the original poster is getting at, that procreation hurts a person after they are born, not that it hurts non-existent persons at the second of conception.
xXCryptoXx
Posts: 5,000
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8/22/2015 12:25:59 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/14/2013 6:07:56 PM, johnaus wrote:
Procreation is imoral because life is filled with suffering.I's morally wrong to inflict suffering on people therefore it's immoral to procreate.

Parents always have children to satistify their needs at the cost of gambling with their lives. There is Always a chance of creating miserable lives, therefore having children is selfish and unethical.

As far as I know, you haven't committed suicide yet, so that must mean you find something in life that makes it worth living.
Nolite Timere
xXCryptoXx
Posts: 5,000
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8/22/2015 12:27:05 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/15/2013 4:01:19 PM, Wnope wrote:
Under this rational, how is it moral to let anyone around you survive? All they do is suffer.

We should round them all up and perform massive, painless genocide to bring an end to suffering around the world.
Nolite Timere
skipsaweirdo
Posts: 1,872
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8/26/2015 11:35:57 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/14/2013 6:07:56 PM, johnaus wrote:
Procreation is imoral because life is filled with suffering.I's morally wrong to inflict suffering on people therefore it's immoral to procreate.

Parents always have children to satistify their needs at the cost of gambling with their lives. There is Always a chance of creating miserable lives, therefore having children is selfish and unethical.

Procreation is immoral however amateur creation is perfectly acceptable. All humans are amateurs at life upon giving birth.