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God is necessary because...?

MysticEgg
Posts: 524
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11/17/2013 2:12:22 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Forgive my ignorance, but I have been thinking round and round in circles and can't put my finger on it. People tend to accept that God is necessary because he has the great making properties. So:

Why is God necessary?
A: Because he has the great making properties.

Why does he have them?
A: Because he's necessary.

Either I've missed something (which is highly probable), or this whole concept begs the question.

So, more informed philosophers:

Why is God necessary?
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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11/17/2013 6:40:12 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Theists would say that asking why God is necessary or maximally great is like asking why a table is an article of furniture supported by one or more vertical legs and having a flat horizontal surface; it is true by definition. Some theists will say that the laws of logic are necessary, but logic is conceptual, thus there has to be a necessary being who grounds them. They will also say that all contingent things are dependent on a necessary thing; God.
yay842
Posts: 5,680
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11/18/2013 1:12:42 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/17/2013 2:12:22 PM, MysticEgg wrote:
Forgive my ignorance, but I have been thinking round and round in circles and can't put my finger on it. People tend to accept that God is necessary because he has the great making properties. So:

Why is God necessary?
A: He ain't.

Why does he have them?
A: Because he don't.

Either I've missed something (which is highly probable), or this whole concept begs the question.

So, more informed philosophers:

Why is God necessary?

Because he farted.
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yay842
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11/18/2013 1:13:23 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
If God existed, he'd be necessary if he regulates life
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Installgentoo
Posts: 1,420
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11/18/2013 7:01:18 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
If God has great-making properties then he would exist necessarily because he is omnipresent. That means even when no physical stuff existed beyond energy, God could exist in abstracto.
Graincruncher
Posts: 2,799
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11/18/2013 7:39:22 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/18/2013 7:01:18 AM, Installgentoo wrote:
If God has great-making properties then he would exist necessarily because he is omnipresent. That means even when no physical stuff existed beyond energy, God could exist in abstracto.

So god exists if physical stuff like energy exists, you mean? Like... *thinks* oh yes, everything else.

To the OP - no, not in the least. That is not the same as saying "there is no god/no necessary being", because for all anyone knows there might be. It is merely saying that it is not necessary that there be a necessary being.

Frankly, the problem lies in the terminology; many people think they are saying something with comments/questions regarding necessity that they just aren't. 'Necessary' is a causally-rooted word, so removing it from the causal framework within which those roots exist is to express nonsense.
Installgentoo
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11/18/2013 7:42:07 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/18/2013 7:39:22 AM, Graincruncher wrote:
At 11/18/2013 7:01:18 AM, Installgentoo wrote:
If God has great-making properties then he would exist necessarily because he is omnipresent. That means even when no physical stuff existed beyond energy, God could exist in abstracto.

So god exists if physical stuff like energy exists, you mean? Like... *thinks* oh yes, everything else.

Of course, God is represented by energy because he is a mind. Minds produce action, action creates energy.
Graincruncher
Posts: 2,799
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11/18/2013 7:50:28 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/18/2013 7:42:07 AM, Installgentoo wrote:
Of course, God is represented by energy because he is a mind. Minds produce action, action creates energy.

And energy is physically existent and bound by the laws of physics. God cannot 'be energy' (whatever that's actually supposed to mean) without also being part of the physical universe and subject to the laws of said universe. Because that is what energy is; stuff behaving according to a set of rules. You just made god entirely mundane.
zmikecuber
Posts: 4,093
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11/18/2013 11:33:23 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
God is necessary in a "second level" of existing, but not necessarily a "first level" of existing. Meaning, from a conceptual level, God would be impossible to not be. Now this might be true if God existed on a first level, or in reality.

It's like if I say "aliens are green." Well this might be true, on a conceptual level, but it's not true on a real extant level, until it is established that aliens do exist.

My 2 cents...
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"primal man had the habit, when he came into contact with fire, of satisfying the infantile desire connected with it, by putting it out with a stream of his urine... Putting out the fire by micturating was therefore a kind of sexual act with a male, an enjoyment of sexual potency in a homosexual competition."
Installgentoo
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11/18/2013 5:02:12 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/18/2013 7:50:28 AM, Graincruncher wrote:
At 11/18/2013 7:42:07 AM, Installgentoo wrote:
Of course, God is represented by energy because he is a mind. Minds produce action, action creates energy.

God cannot 'be energy' (whatever that's actually supposed to mean) without also being part of the physical universe and subject to the laws of said universe. Because that is what energy is; stuff behaving according to a set of rules. You just made god entirely mundane.

An ultramundane God (which God is, see the Doctrine of Divine Simplicity) would of course be energy, because all things which exist are simply condenscened energy, per E=mc2.
Graincruncher
Posts: 2,799
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11/18/2013 5:59:10 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/18/2013 5:02:12 PM, Installgentoo wrote:
At 11/18/2013 7:50:28 AM, Graincruncher wrote:
At 11/18/2013 7:42:07 AM, Installgentoo wrote:
Of course, God is represented by energy because he is a mind. Minds produce action, action creates energy.

God cannot 'be energy' (whatever that's actually supposed to mean) without also being part of the physical universe and subject to the laws of said universe. Because that is what energy is; stuff behaving according to a set of rules. You just made god entirely mundane.

An ultramundane God (which God is, see the Doctrine of Divine Simplicity) would of course be energy, because all things which exist are simply condenscened energy, per E=mc2.

I think you might want to study some physics; energy is part of the universe that god is supposed to have created.