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Pain

Moze
Posts: 3
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11/29/2013 4:23:23 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I have always wondered about pain and tried to imagine the world without it several times. In my head, It always ends with chaos. We know for sure that cavemen couldn't have survived without fearing the pain predators can cause. But what if we, in this modern age, strip the human race from its ability to feel physical and mental pain? Would our intelligence be able to control the situation? Some would argue that even with the presence of pain right now, we are struggling to control the situation. I personally think hell would break loose. People will not be afraid of going to jail, no authority can dictate the situation with force because nobody is afraid of dying. It would truly mean the word chaos.

We tend to take pain for granted and yet we hate it at the same time. That is very fascinating. Well, I guess we don't take pain itself for granted rather than we take what pain provides as granted. It's still fascinating. How could a living being evolve to feel pain permanently? It truly is a mystery. The more you think about pain, the more you alienate it. You literally start to see it as an unnatural thing. The best way to describe it is to call it an invention. An invention that was planted within us to better our lives and give it purpose and meaning. It somehow completes pleasure and happiness. Yes, by avoiding pain you achieve happiness. Opposites give each other their meanings.

Philosophers have wonderfully spoken about human ethics. They provided many theories to try and define what's right and what's wrong. All of this wouldn't have been possible if it weren't for pain. Yes, pain is simply what defines right from wrong. If something causes pain, it's simply wrong. If something causes pleasure, it's simply right. If something causes pleasure from one side and pain from another side, then weighing those against each other will determine whether this thing is right or wrong. This is where people have different opinions. They just simply have different ways of weighing the situation. That's it.

Do you agree with this statement? "Pain is what defines right & wrong"
Moze
themohawkninja
Posts: 816
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11/29/2013 7:35:10 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/29/2013 4:23:23 PM, Moze wrote:
I have always wondered about pain and tried to imagine the world without it several times. In my head, It always ends with chaos. We know for sure that cavemen couldn't have survived without fearing the pain predators can cause. But what if we, in this modern age, strip the human race from its ability to feel physical and mental pain? Would our intelligence be able to control the situation? Some would argue that even with the presence of pain right now, we are struggling to control the situation. I personally think hell would break loose. People will not be afraid of going to jail, no authority can dictate the situation with force because nobody is afraid of dying. It would truly mean the word chaos.

We tend to take pain for granted and yet we hate it at the same time. That is very fascinating. Well, I guess we don't take pain itself for granted rather than we take what pain provides as granted. It's still fascinating. How could a living being evolve to feel pain permanently? It truly is a mystery. The more you think about pain, the more you alienate it. You literally start to see it as an unnatural thing. The best way to describe it is to call it an invention. An invention that was planted within us to better our lives and give it purpose and meaning. It somehow completes pleasure and happiness. Yes, by avoiding pain you achieve happiness. Opposites give each other their meanings.

Philosophers have wonderfully spoken about human ethics. They provided many theories to try and define what's right and what's wrong. All of this wouldn't have been possible if it weren't for pain. Yes, pain is simply what defines right from wrong. If something causes pain, it's simply wrong. If something causes pleasure, it's simply right. If something causes pleasure from one side and pain from another side, then weighing those against each other will determine whether this thing is right or wrong. This is where people have different opinions. They just simply have different ways of weighing the situation. That's it.

Do you agree with this statement? "Pain is what defines right & wrong"

Pain only assists in what is right and what is wrong, Without pain, there is still injury. Murder is considered wrong, not because it hurts (because you can kill someone painlessly), but because you are injuring them to the point whereby they are no longer living.

You might want to research a disorder that actually makes people not feel pain (the "P substance" isn't released in the body, this substance is why you and I feel pain). My mother has told me a story about a young girl with this disorder, and she died because she asked her friend to swing a baseball bat at her chest to prove that she couldn't feel pain. While she probably didn't feel any pain, the force of the impact caused fatal amounts on internal bleeding.
"Morals are simply a limit to man's potential."~Myself

Political correctness is like saying you can't have a steak, because a baby can't eat one ~Unknown
NiqashMotawadi3
Posts: 1,895
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12/2/2013 7:04:26 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
I can imagine a universe without pain and yet still with safety from injury. Like, if you fall on your knees, you would see lights coming out indicating that you have been injured. This seems to me a better way than having a feeling of pain, but natural selection is indifferent and pragmatic, so I expect things like pain to emerge.

Moreover, this can be extended to emotional pain. Instead of feeling emotional pain, you would have red lights coming out of you head indicating that you are emotionally hurt. However, similarly to pain itself, such methods are not 100% efficient in reducing injury as people sometimes find pleasure in pain as I imagine they would find pleasure in having lights emitted from all over their bodies.
Wren_cyborg
Posts: 241
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12/2/2013 10:27:38 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Pain is part of the fundamental balances that being alive brings. It is not some evolutionary trait that was developed at some point in our history to help us avoid damaging ourselves. There is no such thing as pleasure without pain - everything operates in a balance. It is similar to having no concept of darkness without the existence of light. Could you remove our pain? I believe so. But that would not simply remove pain and leave the rest of our consciousness intact, it would take with it the other side of the balance too - our ability to feel pleasure. The person we would be left with would be a shell of their former selves, a lobotomized zombie with only basic mental functions to rely on.

I was reading my old psychology 101 textbook the other night and they posited that anger was a trait that was arbitrarily created in the evolutionary process as well. I disagree with them in the same vein; anger is not a peculiar trait developed for some reason because it helped us survive (and carried in our genes to our offspring), it is a fundamental aspect of our level of sentience. A being of sufficient intelligence must, by default, have both virtue and vice. We cannot have just one or the other. Intelligence is a privilege, and privilege and responsibility are a fundamental balance of the universe that can never be broken. Beings considerably more intelligent than we are - if they can possibly exist - would have both virtues and vices that far exceed our own.
yay842
Posts: 5,680
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12/4/2013 8:02:13 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
You want to know what pain is?

pain [peyn] Show IPA
noun
1.
physical suffering or distress, as due to injury, illness, etc.
2.
a distressing sensation in a particular part of the body: a back pain.
3.
mental or emotional suffering or torment: I am sorry my news causes you such pain.
4.
pains.
a.
laborious or careful efforts; assiduous care: Great pains have been taken to repair the engine perfectly.
b.
the suffering of childbirth.
5.
Informal. an annoying or troublesome person or thing.

http://dictionary.reference.com...

You're welcome.
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GarretKadeDupre
Posts: 2,023
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12/8/2013 9:12:41 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/2/2013 10:27:38 AM, Wren_cyborg wrote:
Pain is part of the fundamental balances that being alive brings. It is not some evolutionary trait that was developed at some point in our history to help us avoid damaging ourselves. There is no such thing as pleasure without pain - everything operates in a balance. It is similar to having no concept of darkness without the existence of light. Could you remove our pain? I believe so. But that would not simply remove pain and leave the rest of our consciousness intact, it would take with it the other side of the balance too - our ability to feel pleasure. The person we would be left with would be a shell of their former selves, a lobotomized zombie with only basic mental functions to rely on.

I was reading my old psychology 101 textbook the other night and they posited that anger was a trait that was arbitrarily created in the evolutionary process as well. I disagree with them in the same vein; anger is not a peculiar trait developed for some reason because it helped us survive (and carried in our genes to our offspring), it is a fundamental aspect of our level of sentience. A being of sufficient intelligence must, by default, have both virtue and vice. We cannot have just one or the other. Intelligence is a privilege, and privilege and responsibility are a fundamental balance of the universe that can never be broken. Beings considerably more intelligent than we are - if they can possibly exist - would have both virtues and vices that far exceed our own.

I agree. The concept of pleasure without pain is illogical.
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Wren_cyborg
Posts: 241
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12/8/2013 9:56:22 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/8/2013 9:12:41 PM, GarretKadeDupre wrote:
At 12/2/2013 10:27:38 AM, Wren_cyborg wrote:
Pain is part of the fundamental balances that being alive brings. It is not some evolutionary trait that was developed at some point in our history to help us avoid damaging ourselves. There is no such thing as pleasure without pain - everything operates in a balance. It is similar to having no concept of darkness without the existence of light. Could you remove our pain? I believe so. But that would not simply remove pain and leave the rest of our consciousness intact, it would take with it the other side of the balance too - our ability to feel pleasure. The person we would be left with would be a shell of their former selves, a lobotomized zombie with only basic mental functions to rely on.

I was reading my old psychology 101 textbook the other night and they posited that anger was a trait that was arbitrarily created in the evolutionary process as well. I disagree with them in the same vein; anger is not a peculiar trait developed for some reason because it helped us survive (and carried in our genes to our offspring), it is a fundamental aspect of our level of sentience. A being of sufficient intelligence must, by default, have both virtue and vice. We cannot have just one or the other. Intelligence is a privilege, and privilege and responsibility are a fundamental balance of the universe that can never be broken. Beings considerably more intelligent than we are - if they can possibly exist - would have both virtues and vices that far exceed our own.

I agree. The concept of pleasure without pain is illogical.

You will find a great many people around here that do not follow that logic.
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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12/8/2013 10:59:05 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/8/2013 9:12:41 PM, GarretKadeDupre wrote:
At 12/2/2013 10:27:38 AM, Wren_cyborg wrote:
Pain is part of the fundamental balances that being alive brings. It is not some evolutionary trait that was developed at some point in our history to help us avoid damaging ourselves. There is no such thing as pleasure without pain - everything operates in a balance. It is similar to having no concept of darkness without the existence of light. Could you remove our pain? I believe so. But that would not simply remove pain and leave the rest of our consciousness intact, it would take with it the other side of the balance too - our ability to feel pleasure. The person we would be left with would be a shell of their former selves, a lobotomized zombie with only basic mental functions to rely on.

I was reading my old psychology 101 textbook the other night and they posited that anger was a trait that was arbitrarily created in the evolutionary process as well. I disagree with them in the same vein; anger is not a peculiar trait developed for some reason because it helped us survive (and carried in our genes to our offspring), it is a fundamental aspect of our level of sentience. A being of sufficient intelligence must, by default, have both virtue and vice. We cannot have just one or the other. Intelligence is a privilege, and privilege and responsibility are a fundamental balance of the universe that can never be broken. Beings considerably more intelligent than we are - if they can possibly exist - would have both virtues and vices that far exceed our own.

I agree. The concept of pleasure without pain is illogical.

So I guess there will be lots of pain in heaven!
Wren_cyborg
Posts: 241
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12/8/2013 11:44:57 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/8/2013 11:02:26 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Pain and pleasure are two distinct things, having one, while lacking the other is no problem.

They are not distinct, they are opposites on a spectrum. If I'm having sex with the girl of my dreams (pleasure) and I stub my toe badly, I will instantly cease to experience the pleasure while the pain is present.

So I guess there will be lots of pain in heaven!

Pain and pleasure are probably only attributes of these bodies, but if there is pleasure in heaven (nobody is to say whether there is or isn't) then yes, we would also have the ability to experience pain as well.
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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12/8/2013 11:50:11 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/8/2013 11:44:57 PM, Wren_cyborg wrote:
At 12/8/2013 11:02:26 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Pain and pleasure are two distinct things, having one, while lacking the other is no problem.

They are not distinct, they are opposites on a spectrum.

There are state of being that aren't painful, and that don't entail pleasure (neutral states). Thus, that is false. If I stare at a wall, I am not feeling pleasure (like having sex), but I don't feel pain either (like stubbing a toe).

If I'm having sex with the girl of my dreams (pleasure) and I stub my toe badly, I will instantly cease to experience the pleasure while the pain is present.

So? That doesn't support your initial conclusion


So I guess there will be lots of pain in heaven!

Pain and pleasure are probably only attributes of these bodies, but if there is pleasure in heaven (nobody is to say whether there is or isn't) then yes, we would also have the ability to experience pain as well.

This is shifting the goal posts. First you said that you cannot have pleasure without pain, now you are saying you cannot have pleasure without the ability to experience pain.

"possibly pain" =/= "pain"
Wren_cyborg
Posts: 241
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12/9/2013 12:08:46 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/8/2013 11:50:11 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 12/8/2013 11:44:57 PM, Wren_cyborg wrote:
At 12/8/2013 11:02:26 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Pain and pleasure are two distinct things, having one, while lacking the other is no problem.

They are not distinct, they are opposites on a spectrum.

There are state of being that aren't painful, and that don't entail pleasure (neutral states). Thus, that is false. If I stare at a wall, I am not feeling pleasure (like having sex), but I don't feel pain either (like stubbing a toe).

If you measured a pH of 7, we could call it a "neutral state" as well. That just means you're halfway between two extremes on a spectrum.

If I'm having sex with the girl of my dreams (pleasure) and I stub my toe badly, I will instantly cease to experience the pleasure while the pain is present.

So? That doesn't support your initial conclusion

Sure it does. The whole reason I can't enjoy the pleasure of the sex is because my position on the spectrum just shifted and I cannot occupy two spots on it at once.


So I guess there will be lots of pain in heaven!

Pain and pleasure are probably only attributes of these bodies, but if there is pleasure in heaven (nobody is to say whether there is or isn't) then yes, we would also have the ability to experience pain as well.

This is shifting the goal posts. First you said that you cannot have pleasure without pain, now you are saying you cannot have pleasure without the ability to experience pain.

"possibly pain" =/= "pain"

I don't understand your problem here... nobody is saying that something that is pleasurable has to be simultaneously painful - that would make no sense. Pain and pleasure are a spectrum and mutually exclusive, and nobody can experience only one side of it. We all have to experience both sides. You couldn't, with all the money, science and technology imaginable, produce a human from birth that had things laid out so well for him or her that they would not experience some pain. Although the opposite is easier to imagine (torturing an infant from day one, continuously? 0_o), I would argue that even in this case the organism wouldn't survive in a negative state for very long. It would either die quickly (thus not being able to exist with only pain) or actually find pleasure in the existence in ways that we would not understand easily. Pain and pleasure are a balance that we exist on, with neither side having any more primacy than the other or even more magnitude - we always have our good and our bad and they only have meaning in that sense because of the opposite, similar to how there's no meaning to darkness without the creation of brightness. IOWs, if the concept of brightness is extinguished, we aren't left with darkness, we are instead left in a situation where there is neither brightness nor darkness.
ADreamOfLiberty
Posts: 1,570
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12/9/2013 11:24:29 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/9/2013 12:08:46 AM, Wren_cyborg wrote:
At 12/8/2013 11:50:11 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 12/8/2013 11:44:57 PM, Wren_cyborg wrote:
At 12/8/2013 11:02:26 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Pain and pleasure are two distinct things, having one, while lacking the other is no problem.

They are not distinct, they are opposites on a spectrum.

There are state of being that aren't painful, and that don't entail pleasure (neutral states). Thus, that is false. If I stare at a wall, I am not feeling pleasure (like having sex), but I don't feel pain either (like stubbing a toe).

If you measured a pH of 7, we could call it a "neutral state" as well. That just means you're halfway between two extremes on a spectrum.

So why can't we have a buffering system and keep everything on the pleasure side?
LOL, yeah, it's pretty amazing how they think they can "reason" with you. - Sidewalker, speaking of advocates for sexual deviancy.

So, my advice, Liberty, is to go somewhere else. Leave, and never come back. - YYW

And that's what I did. Contact me at http://www.edeb8.com... by the same user name if you have anything you'd like to say.
zmikecuber
Posts: 4,091
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12/9/2013 11:58:29 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/8/2013 10:59:05 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 12/8/2013 9:12:41 PM, GarretKadeDupre wrote:
At 12/2/2013 10:27:38 AM, Wren_cyborg wrote:
Pain is part of the fundamental balances that being alive brings. It is not some evolutionary trait that was developed at some point in our history to help us avoid damaging ourselves. There is no such thing as pleasure without pain - everything operates in a balance. It is similar to having no concept of darkness without the existence of light. Could you remove our pain? I believe so. But that would not simply remove pain and leave the rest of our consciousness intact, it would take with it the other side of the balance too - our ability to feel pleasure. The person we would be left with would be a shell of their former selves, a lobotomized zombie with only basic mental functions to rely on.

I was reading my old psychology 101 textbook the other night and they posited that anger was a trait that was arbitrarily created in the evolutionary process as well. I disagree with them in the same vein; anger is not a peculiar trait developed for some reason because it helped us survive (and carried in our genes to our offspring), it is a fundamental aspect of our level of sentience. A being of sufficient intelligence must, by default, have both virtue and vice. We cannot have just one or the other. Intelligence is a privilege, and privilege and responsibility are a fundamental balance of the universe that can never be broken. Beings considerably more intelligent than we are - if they can possibly exist - would have both virtues and vices that far exceed our own.

I agree. The concept of pleasure without pain is illogical.

So I guess there will be lots of pain in heaven!

That would actually be pretty profound. Maybe heaven gets repetitive, like sex, but is nonetheless fulfilling at the same time, again, like sex.
"Delete your fvcking sig" -1hard

"primal man had the habit, when he came into contact with fire, of satisfying the infantile desire connected with it, by putting it out with a stream of his urine... Putting out the fire by micturating was therefore a kind of sexual act with a male, an enjoyment of sexual potency in a homosexual competition."
Moze
Posts: 3
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12/9/2013 1:33:21 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/9/2013 12:08:46 AM, Wren_cyborg wrote:
At 12/8/2013 11:50:11 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 12/8/2013 11:44:57 PM, Wren_cyborg wrote:
At 12/8/2013 11:02:26 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Pain and pleasure are two distinct things, having one, while lacking the other is no problem.

They are not distinct, they are opposites on a spectrum.

There are state of being that aren't painful, and that don't entail pleasure (neutral states). Thus, that is false. If I stare at a wall, I am not feeling pleasure (like having sex), but I don't feel pain either (like stubbing a toe).

If you measured a pH of 7, we could call it a "neutral state" as well. That just means you're halfway between two extremes on a spectrum.

If I'm having sex with the girl of my dreams (pleasure) and I stub my toe badly, I will instantly cease to experience the pleasure while the pain is present.

So? That doesn't support your initial conclusion

Sure it does. The whole reason I can't enjoy the pleasure of the sex is because my position on the spectrum just shifted and I cannot occupy two spots on it at once.


So I guess there will be lots of pain in heaven!

Pain and pleasure are probably only attributes of these bodies, but if there is pleasure in heaven (nobody is to say whether there is or isn't) then yes, we would also have the ability to experience pain as well.

This is shifting the goal posts. First you said that you cannot have pleasure without pain, now you are saying you cannot have pleasure without the ability to experience pain.

"possibly pain" =/= "pain"

I don't understand your problem here... nobody is saying that something that is pleasurable has to be simultaneously painful - that would make no sense. Pain and pleasure are a spectrum and mutually exclusive, and nobody can experience only one side of it. We all have to experience both sides. You couldn't, with all the money, science and technology imaginable, produce a human from birth that had things laid out so well for him or her that they would not experience some pain. Although the opposite is easier to imagine (torturing an infant from day one, continuously? 0_o), I would argue that even in this case the organism wouldn't survive in a negative state for very long. It would either die quickly (thus not being able to exist with only pain) or actually find pleasure in the existence in ways that we would not understand easily. Pain and pleasure are a balance that we exist on, with neither side having any more primacy than the other or even more magnitude - we always have our good and our bad and they only have meaning in that sense because of the opposite, similar to how there's no meaning to darkness without the creation of brightness. IOWs, if the concept of brightness is extinguished, we aren't left with darkness, we are instead left in a situation where there is neither brightness nor darkness.

This is interesting. I once tried pinching myself with magnitude 5 for about 5 minutes. The pain didn't stop throughout the 5 minutes but I kinda got used to it. I then reduced the pinching power to magnitude 2 expecting that I wouldn't feel pain at all, but to my surprise, the pain decreased to that amount but I'm no longer used to it. So it was mentally more uncomfortable. I don't know how to explain it. You should try it out yourself.
Moze
ADreamOfLiberty
Posts: 1,570
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12/9/2013 2:16:43 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/9/2013 11:58:29 AM, zmikecuber wrote:
At 12/8/2013 10:59:05 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 12/8/2013 9:12:41 PM, GarretKadeDupre wrote:
I agree. The concept of pleasure without pain is illogical.

So I guess there will be lots of pain in heaven!

That would actually be pretty profound. Maybe heaven gets repetitive, like sex, but is nonetheless fulfilling at the same time, again, like sex.

Maybe heaven is sex... [that was definitely asking for this comment]
LOL, yeah, it's pretty amazing how they think they can "reason" with you. - Sidewalker, speaking of advocates for sexual deviancy.

So, my advice, Liberty, is to go somewhere else. Leave, and never come back. - YYW

And that's what I did. Contact me at http://www.edeb8.com... by the same user name if you have anything you'd like to say.
themohawkninja
Posts: 816
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12/9/2013 3:40:52 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/9/2013 12:08:46 AM, Wren_cyborg wrote:
Sure it does. The whole reason I can't enjoy the pleasure of the sex is because my position on the spectrum just shifted and I cannot occupy two spots on it at once.


On this point. Pleasure is the result of neurotransmitters like serotonin, whereas pain in derived from the neurotransmitter substance P. Since we have many more than one synapse to have the neurotransmitters flow through, perhaps we could have some synapses that receive the serotonin, while others receive the substance P at the same time.
"Morals are simply a limit to man's potential."~Myself

Political correctness is like saying you can't have a steak, because a baby can't eat one ~Unknown
Wren_cyborg
Posts: 241
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12/9/2013 7:00:25 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/9/2013 11:24:29 AM, ADreamOfLiberty wrote:
At 12/9/2013 12:08:46 AM, Wren_cyborg wrote:
At 12/8/2013 11:50:11 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 12/8/2013 11:44:57 PM, Wren_cyborg wrote:
At 12/8/2013 11:02:26 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Pain and pleasure are two distinct things, having one, while lacking the other is no problem.

They are not distinct, they are opposites on a spectrum.

There are state of being that aren't painful, and that don't entail pleasure (neutral states). Thus, that is false. If I stare at a wall, I am not feeling pleasure (like having sex), but I don't feel pain either (like stubbing a toe).

If you measured a pH of 7, we could call it a "neutral state" as well. That just means you're halfway between two extremes on a spectrum.

So why can't we have a buffering system and keep everything on the pleasure side?

For the same reason that we can't have everyone in the world be rich - you can't have rich people without also having poor people and you can't have pleasure without pain. If you really think about it, even if the laws of physics and psychology did allow for such a state, would that really be how we would choose to live? There would be no point to living, because we'd be happy either way. Your mother just died - hooray! Have more cake! Should I go to college, exercise, or learn a musical instrument? Who cares! It is similar to playing a sport or other game with somebody and knowing that you will both win at then end no matter what happens. You guys are not looking at the whole picture here. You are proposing that there could be technological or other means for eliminating pain, but not realizing that pain isn't just a fundamental attribute of life, it IS life. We NEED our pain and wouldn't be worth sh!t without it. Life is supposed to be a struggle, and without relation to that struggle, joy really has no meaning.
zmikecuber
Posts: 4,091
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12/9/2013 9:45:15 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/9/2013 2:16:43 PM, ADreamOfLiberty wrote:
At 12/9/2013 11:58:29 AM, zmikecuber wrote:
At 12/8/2013 10:59:05 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 12/8/2013 9:12:41 PM, GarretKadeDupre wrote:
I agree. The concept of pleasure without pain is illogical.

So I guess there will be lots of pain in heaven!

That would actually be pretty profound. Maybe heaven gets repetitive, like sex, but is nonetheless fulfilling at the same time, again, like sex.

Maybe heaven is sex... [that was definitely asking for this comment]

Yes, but not in the physical sense. I would more say that sex is heaven, if you see what I mean. A union between God and each individual in a intimate, repetitive, yet fulfilling sense.
"Delete your fvcking sig" -1hard

"primal man had the habit, when he came into contact with fire, of satisfying the infantile desire connected with it, by putting it out with a stream of his urine... Putting out the fire by micturating was therefore a kind of sexual act with a male, an enjoyment of sexual potency in a homosexual competition."
ADreamOfLiberty
Posts: 1,570
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12/9/2013 10:35:10 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/9/2013 7:00:25 PM, Wren_cyborg wrote:
At 12/9/2013 11:24:29 AM, ADreamOfLiberty wrote:
At 12/9/2013 12:08:46 AM, Wren_cyborg wrote:
At 12/8/2013 11:50:11 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 12/8/2013 11:44:57 PM, Wren_cyborg wrote:
At 12/8/2013 11:02:26 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Pain and pleasure are two distinct things, having one, while lacking the other is no problem.

They are not distinct, they are opposites on a spectrum.

There are state of being that aren't painful, and that don't entail pleasure (neutral states). Thus, that is false. If I stare at a wall, I am not feeling pleasure (like having sex), but I don't feel pain either (like stubbing a toe).

If you measured a pH of 7, we could call it a "neutral state" as well. That just means you're halfway between two extremes on a spectrum.

So why can't we have a buffering system and keep everything on the pleasure side?

For the same reason that we can't have everyone in the world be rich - you can't have rich people without also having poor people and you can't have pleasure without pain. If you really think about it, even if the laws of physics and psychology did allow for such a state, would that really be how we would choose to live? There would be no point to living, because we'd be happy either way. Your mother just died - hooray! Have more cake! Should I go to college, exercise, or learn a musical instrument? Who cares! It is similar to playing a sport or other game with somebody and knowing that you will both win at then end no matter what happens. You guys are not looking at the whole picture here. You are proposing that there could be technological or other means for eliminating pain, but not realizing that pain isn't just a fundamental attribute of life, it IS life. We NEED our pain and wouldn't be worth sh!t without it. Life is supposed to be a struggle, and without relation to that struggle, joy really has no meaning.

People are defined rich or poor with relation to each others wealth that's true, but what evidence do you have that pleasure and pain are only defined with relation to actually experienced sensations?

i.e. how do you know that the brain can be capable of processing pain without actually processing it for a decade? How do you know that pleasure will stop feeling good and what was before neutral will start feeling painful if we block the pain signals?

At 12/9/2013 9:45:15 PM, zmikecuber wrote:
At 12/9/2013 2:16:43 PM, ADreamOfLiberty wrote:
At 12/9/2013 11:58:29 AM, zmikecuber wrote:
At 12/8/2013 10:59:05 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 12/8/2013 9:12:41 PM, GarretKadeDupre wrote:
I agree. The concept of pleasure without pain is illogical.

So I guess there will be lots of pain in heaven!

That would actually be pretty profound. Maybe heaven gets repetitive, like sex, but is nonetheless fulfilling at the same time, again, like sex.

Maybe heaven is sex... [that was definitely asking for this comment]

Yes, but not in the physical sense. I would more say that sex is heaven, if you see what I mean. A union between God and each individual in a intimate, repetitive, yet fulfilling sense.

I'll contact the pope to inform him of this innovative new theology.
LOL, yeah, it's pretty amazing how they think they can "reason" with you. - Sidewalker, speaking of advocates for sexual deviancy.

So, my advice, Liberty, is to go somewhere else. Leave, and never come back. - YYW

And that's what I did. Contact me at http://www.edeb8.com... by the same user name if you have anything you'd like to say.
zmikecuber
Posts: 4,091
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12/10/2013 9:09:51 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/9/2013 10:35:10 PM, ADreamOfLiberty wrote:
At 12/9/2013 7:00:25 PM, Wren_cyborg wrote:
At 12/9/2013 11:24:29 AM, ADreamOfLiberty wrote:
At 12/9/2013 12:08:46 AM, Wren_cyborg wrote:
At 12/8/2013 11:50:11 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 12/8/2013 11:44:57 PM, Wren_cyborg wrote:
At 12/8/2013 11:02:26 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Pain and pleasure are two distinct things, having one, while lacking the other is no problem.

They are not distinct, they are opposites on a spectrum.

There are state of being that aren't painful, and that don't entail pleasure (neutral states). Thus, that is false. If I stare at a wall, I am not feeling pleasure (like having sex), but I don't feel pain either (like stubbing a toe).

If you measured a pH of 7, we could call it a "neutral state" as well. That just means you're halfway between two extremes on a spectrum.

So why can't we have a buffering system and keep everything on the pleasure side?

For the same reason that we can't have everyone in the world be rich - you can't have rich people without also having poor people and you can't have pleasure without pain. If you really think about it, even if the laws of physics and psychology did allow for such a state, would that really be how we would choose to live? There would be no point to living, because we'd be happy either way. Your mother just died - hooray! Have more cake! Should I go to college, exercise, or learn a musical instrument? Who cares! It is similar to playing a sport or other game with somebody and knowing that you will both win at then end no matter what happens. You guys are not looking at the whole picture here. You are proposing that there could be technological or other means for eliminating pain, but not realizing that pain isn't just a fundamental attribute of life, it IS life. We NEED our pain and wouldn't be worth sh!t without it. Life is supposed to be a struggle, and without relation to that struggle, joy really has no meaning.

People are defined rich or poor with relation to each others wealth that's true, but what evidence do you have that pleasure and pain are only defined with relation to actually experienced sensations?

i.e. how do you know that the brain can be capable of processing pain without actually processing it for a decade? How do you know that pleasure will stop feeling good and what was before neutral will start feeling painful if we block the pain signals?

At 12/9/2013 9:45:15 PM, zmikecuber wrote:
At 12/9/2013 2:16:43 PM, ADreamOfLiberty wrote:
At 12/9/2013 11:58:29 AM, zmikecuber wrote:
At 12/8/2013 10:59:05 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 12/8/2013 9:12:41 PM, GarretKadeDupre wrote:
I agree. The concept of pleasure without pain is illogical.

So I guess there will be lots of pain in heaven!

That would actually be pretty profound. Maybe heaven gets repetitive, like sex, but is nonetheless fulfilling at the same time, again, like sex.

Maybe heaven is sex... [that was definitely asking for this comment]

Yes, but not in the physical sense. I would more say that sex is heaven, if you see what I mean. A union between God and each individual in a intimate, repetitive, yet fulfilling sense.

I'll contact the pope to inform him of this innovative new theology.

LOL. Go read JPII's theology of the body... This stuff isn't totally new. In fact, the Catholic Mass is technically considered a "wedding feast" between Christ and his church. ;-)
"Delete your fvcking sig" -1hard

"primal man had the habit, when he came into contact with fire, of satisfying the infantile desire connected with it, by putting it out with a stream of his urine... Putting out the fire by micturating was therefore a kind of sexual act with a male, an enjoyment of sexual potency in a homosexual competition."
ADreamOfLiberty
Posts: 1,570
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12/10/2013 10:13:24 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/10/2013 9:09:51 AM, zmikecuber wrote:
At 12/9/2013 10:35:10 PM, ADreamOfLiberty wrote:
I'll contact the pope to inform him of this innovative new theology.

LOL. Go read JPII's theology of the body... This stuff isn't totally new. In fact, the Catholic Mass is technically considered a "wedding feast" between Christ and his church. ;-)

Ah the good old Catholic Church, here's to you; you started with an inconsistent bible, and you built even more stunningly contradictory theology from it!
LOL, yeah, it's pretty amazing how they think they can "reason" with you. - Sidewalker, speaking of advocates for sexual deviancy.

So, my advice, Liberty, is to go somewhere else. Leave, and never come back. - YYW

And that's what I did. Contact me at http://www.edeb8.com... by the same user name if you have anything you'd like to say.
Truth_seeker
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7/24/2014 11:10:15 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/29/2013 4:23:23 PM, Moze wrote:
I have always wondered about pain and tried to imagine the world without it several times. In my head, It always ends with chaos. We know for sure that cavemen couldn't have survived without fearing the pain predators can cause. But what if we, in this modern age, strip the human race from its ability to feel physical and mental pain? Would our intelligence be able to control the situation? Some would argue that even with the presence of pain right now, we are struggling to control the situation. I personally think hell would break loose. People will not be afraid of going to jail, no authority can dictate the situation with force because nobody is afraid of dying. It would truly mean the word chaos.

We tend to take pain for granted and yet we hate it at the same time. That is very fascinating. Well, I guess we don't take pain itself for granted rather than we take what pain provides as granted. It's still fascinating. How could a living being evolve to feel pain permanently? It truly is a mystery. The more you think about pain, the more you alienate it. You literally start to see it as an unnatural thing. The best way to describe it is to call it an invention. An invention that was planted within us to better our lives and give it purpose and meaning. It somehow completes pleasure and happiness. Yes, by avoiding pain you achieve happiness. Opposites give each other their meanings.

Philosophers have wonderfully spoken about human ethics. They provided many theories to try and define what's right and what's wrong. All of this wouldn't have been possible if it weren't for pain. Yes, pain is simply what defines right from wrong. If something causes pain, it's simply wrong. If something causes pleasure, it's simply right. If something causes pleasure from one side and pain from another side, then weighing those against each other will determine whether this thing is right or wrong. This is where people have different opinions. They just simply have different ways of weighing the situation. That's it.

Do you agree with this statement? "Pain is what defines right & wrong"

you're actually giving me insight into this. I'm actually going through pain myself right now, just wish I could find the cure and erase it, cuz it feels like I'm dying. I feel confused, angry, frustrated, distrustful, guilty, depressed, sad, happy, hopeful, Etc pain really is what defines right and wrong in a sense. without pain, you wouldn't be evil to know that there's a problem me in the world. Pain can also bring happiness and pleasure once you cultivate it.