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Numbers do exist.

tahir.imanov
Posts: 272
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12/7/2013 5:10:58 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Numbers exist not depending on human mind or consciousness, they are not abstract ideas. They exist out of space and time. Numbers are not subjected to universe(s) (and to space and time). But universe is subjected to numbers, it cannot exist without numbers.

By numbers I mean all numbers, from set of Natural Numbers, to the set of Complex Numbers.

If you do not have mathematical, philosophical or scientific knowledge on topic please do not post.
This is red.
sdavio
Posts: 1,798
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12/7/2013 7:24:33 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/7/2013 5:10:58 AM, tahir.imanov wrote:
Numbers exist not depending on human mind or consciousness, they are not abstract ideas. They exist out of space and time. Numbers are not subjected to universe(s) (and to space and time). But universe is subjected to numbers, it cannot exist without numbers.

By numbers I mean all numbers, from set of Natural Numbers, to the set of Complex Numbers.

If you do not have mathematical, philosophical or scientific knowledge on topic please do not post.

Numbers are concepts, and concepts only exist if there is a perceiving subject who 'conceptualises' them. The reality which can be related to numbers still exists regardless - but it does not in itself slice itself into pieces and create a paradigm by which those pieces are referred to and organised.
"Logic is the money of the mind." - Karl Marx
zmikecuber
Posts: 4,082
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12/7/2013 12:13:15 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/7/2013 5:10:58 AM, tahir.imanov wrote:
Numbers exist not depending on human mind or consciousness, they are not abstract ideas. They exist out of space and time. Numbers are not subjected to universe(s) (and to space and time). But universe is subjected to numbers, it cannot exist without numbers.

By numbers I mean all numbers, from set of Natural Numbers, to the set of Complex Numbers.

If you do not have mathematical, philosophical or scientific knowledge on topic please do not post.

I don't like Platonic realism, so I disagree with this.
"Delete your fvcking sig" -1hard

"primal man had the habit, when he came into contact with fire, of satisfying the infantile desire connected with it, by putting it out with a stream of his urine... Putting out the fire by micturating was therefore a kind of sexual act with a male, an enjoyment of sexual potency in a homosexual competition."
Sidewalker
Posts: 3,713
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12/7/2013 9:46:50 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/7/2013 5:10:58 AM, tahir.imanov wrote:
Numbers exist not depending on human mind or consciousness, they are not abstract ideas. They exist out of space and time. Numbers are not subjected to universe(s) (and to space and time). But universe is subjected to numbers, it cannot exist without numbers.

By numbers I mean all numbers, from set of Natural Numbers, to the set of Complex Numbers.

If you do not have mathematical, philosophical or scientific knowledge on topic please do not post.

If numbers exist independently of mind, and outside of space and time, then how do we learn about them?
"It is one of the commonest of mistakes to consider that the limit of our power of perception is also the limit of all there is to perceive." " C. W. Leadbeater
themohawkninja
Posts: 816
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12/8/2013 1:41:52 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Oh jeez... not the philosophy of math.

At 12/7/2013 5:10:58 AM, tahir.imanov wrote:
Numbers exist not depending on human mind or consciousness, they are not abstract ideas. They exist out of space and time. Numbers are not subjected to universe(s) (and to space and time). But universe is subjected to numbers, it cannot exist without numbers.

How so? How do you know that the universe couldn't exist without numbers?


By numbers I mean all numbers, from set of Natural Numbers, to the set of Complex Numbers.

If you do not have mathematical, philosophical or scientific knowledge on topic please do not post.
"Morals are simply a limit to man's potential."~Myself

Political correctness is like saying you can't have a steak, because a baby can't eat one ~Unknown
Sidewalker
Posts: 3,713
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12/8/2013 4:40:40 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/8/2013 1:41:52 PM, themohawkninja wrote:
Oh jeez... not the philosophy of math.

At 12/7/2013 5:10:58 AM, tahir.imanov wrote:
Numbers exist not depending on human mind or consciousness, they are not abstract ideas. They exist out of space and time. Numbers are not subjected to universe(s) (and to space and time). But universe is subjected to numbers, it cannot exist without numbers.

How so? How do you know that the universe couldn't exist without numbers?

The argument from indispensability I presume.

By numbers I mean all numbers, from set of Natural Numbers, to the set of Complex Numbers.

If you do not have mathematical, philosophical or scientific knowledge on topic please do not post.
"It is one of the commonest of mistakes to consider that the limit of our power of perception is also the limit of all there is to perceive." " C. W. Leadbeater
tahir.imanov
Posts: 272
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12/8/2013 6:57:41 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Does there exist a natural number between 0 and 2?
If yes then numbers exist. (Answer is 1, for whom doesn't know.)

Nominalism is not accurate explanation for numbers . Nomunalism cannot explain pi or complex numbers.
And Fictionalism is an idiotism.

Numbers are existing abstract object.

If you say we use numbers to count items and only positive integers can be found in nature.
Sum of all positive integers (1+2+3+4+......) is -1/12. Actually it show not only negative numbers exist, but rational numbers also exist.
This is red.
zmikecuber
Posts: 4,082
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12/8/2013 8:40:15 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/8/2013 6:57:41 PM, tahir.imanov wrote:
Does there exist a natural number between 0 and 2?
If yes then numbers exist. (Answer is 1, for whom doesn't know.)

Nominalism is not accurate explanation for numbers . Nomunalism cannot explain pi or complex numbers.
And Fictionalism is an idiotism.

Numbers are existing abstract object.

If you say we use numbers to count items and only positive integers can be found in nature.
Sum of all positive integers (1+2+3+4+......) is -1/12. Actually it show not only negative numbers exist, but rational numbers also exist.

So you're arguing for something like Platonic realism? Is that correct?
"Delete your fvcking sig" -1hard

"primal man had the habit, when he came into contact with fire, of satisfying the infantile desire connected with it, by putting it out with a stream of his urine... Putting out the fire by micturating was therefore a kind of sexual act with a male, an enjoyment of sexual potency in a homosexual competition."
ADreamOfLiberty
Posts: 1,570
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12/9/2013 11:21:52 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
All concepts are abstractions they are as real as the properties abstracted.
LOL, yeah, it's pretty amazing how they think they can "reason" with you. - Sidewalker, speaking of advocates for sexual deviancy.

So, my advice, Liberty, is to go somewhere else. Leave, and never come back. - YYW

And that's what I did. Contact me at http://www.edeb8.com... by the same user name if you have anything you'd like to say.
uniqueusername
Posts: 41
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12/9/2013 7:54:44 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
6451326872187646584653241645156465846854768546583465847658476857

oh wow, they exist.
http://tinyurl.com...

The World is an a$$hole and I'm the next big sh*t.
uniqueusername
Posts: 41
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12/9/2013 8:57:42 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/9/2013 8:38:39 PM, yay842 wrote:
1234567890

o ey, numbers

did you seriously just copy my satire?
http://tinyurl.com...

The World is an a$$hole and I'm the next big sh*t.
Wren_cyborg
Posts: 241
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12/9/2013 9:45:35 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/7/2013 5:10:58 AM, tahir.imanov wrote:

If you do not have mathematical, philosophical or scientific knowledge on topic please do not post.

Damn it!
Sidewalker
Posts: 3,713
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12/10/2013 5:26:52 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/8/2013 6:57:41 PM, tahir.imanov wrote:
Does there exist a natural number between 0 and 2?
If yes then numbers exist. (Answer is 1, for whom doesn't know.)

Does there exist the abstract concept of a unicorn? If so, then unicorns exist? That's your argument?

Nominalism is not accurate explanation for numbers . Nomunalism cannot explain pi or complex numbers.
And Fictionalism is an idiotism.

Numbers are existing abstract object.

How does an abstraction exist independently of the mind that does the abstracting? If not in time. space, or mind, then where?

If you say we use numbers to count items and only positive integers can be found in nature.
Sum of all positive integers (1+2+3+4+......) is -1/12.

What???? The sum of all positive integers is not -.8333... what the hell are you talking about?

Actually it show not only negative numbers exist, but rational numbers also exist.

No, it doesn"t show that.

Once again, if numbers exist independently of mind and outside of time and space, then how do we learn about them?
"It is one of the commonest of mistakes to consider that the limit of our power of perception is also the limit of all there is to perceive." " C. W. Leadbeater
nummi
Posts: 294
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12/10/2013 5:38:30 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Numbers exist not depending on human mind or consciousness, they are not abstract ideas. They exist out of space and time. Numbers are not subjected to universe(s) (and to space and time). But universe is subjected to numbers, it cannot exist without numbers.

Right on the contrary, they do exist only depending on human mind and consciousness, and of course as well on the minds of any alien species somewhere out there who too have come up with some kind of numerical system. As to numerical systems, perhaps you could tell us which one you are referring to?

Numbers are mere notions. They are made up to make our lives easier and more comfortable in certain regards.

Numbers are made up of what enables thought and creative thinking, unless they're written down. But in written form what are they really? Mere splotches of some molecules. Either way they're made of the particles our universe consists of, or perhaps instead enabled by the change between all those.

Space and time? Maybe a little off topic but space and time, as some "physical" forces or parts of our universe, do not exist. The best and only way they can be regarded as something actually real is if you regard them as the effects of what our universe is made of - kind of the motion or change of the foundation(s) of our universe. "Space" and "time" are in no way the actual parts themselves.
First we perceive change and motion. Not that which the universe is really made of - that which make change and motion possible in the first place. So it is very easy to miscomprehend as you only see the effect.

If you do not have mathematical, philosophical or scientific knowledge on topic please do not post.

Things like this make me, personally, want to post even more. To realize that numbers do not actually exist as some inherent part of our universe takes no "special" knowledge, all it takes is objective thinking on the subject.
Someone having mathematical, philosophical, or scientific knowledge on any subject, does not necessarily make them smart or wise. Someone having or claiming to have studied knowledge in those areas makes them more susceptible to be wrong, as I've seen people with degrees claim this and that, stuck in their way of thinking that came from books and professors and studies (essentially brainwashed), and actually miss reality.
Sidewalker
Posts: 3,713
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12/10/2013 5:47:41 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/9/2013 9:45:35 PM, Wren_cyborg wrote:
At 12/7/2013 5:10:58 AM, tahir.imanov wrote:

If you do not have mathematical, philosophical or scientific knowledge on topic please do not post.

Damn it!

Yes, he only wants to not engage in a discussion with those who have mathematical, philosophical or scientific knowledge on the topic.
"It is one of the commonest of mistakes to consider that the limit of our power of perception is also the limit of all there is to perceive." " C. W. Leadbeater
tahir.imanov
Posts: 272
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12/11/2013 2:38:22 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Assume there exist two universes, and you have means to travel from one universe to other. you take n number of apples in universe-1 and travel to universe-2. How many apples do you have?

Now, suppose you take that apples an go out of space and time how many apples do you have???
This is red.
tahir.imanov
Posts: 272
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12/11/2013 3:05:40 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
@nummi
numerical system does not matter. 1 is 1 and 0 is 0 in all numerical systems.
Numbers are not just some notions and chemical reactions in our brain. 1 apple is objectively 1 apple, no one is going to say it is 3 (there may be some idiots, who can say that). And numbers are not notions that humans have, animals can count also (that proves some animals are smarter than some people, no offense Sidewalker).
http://www.scientificamerican.com...
http://www.care2.com...
http://www.newscientist.com...
That means numbers are independently exist, not just in human mind or brain.
This is red.
nummi
Posts: 294
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12/11/2013 5:10:10 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/11/2013 3:05:40 PM, tahir.imanov wrote:
numerical system does not matter. 1 is 1 and 0 is 0 in all numerical systems.
How about a system where there are 26 base numbers? In that case 9 is 9, 10 is 10, but 11 is not 11, and so on. This basically proves you wrong already.
Numbers are not just some notions and chemical reactions in our brain. 1 apple is objectively 1 apple, no one is going to say it is 3 (there may be some idiots, who can say that). And numbers are not notions that humans have, animals can count also (that proves some animals are smarter than some people, no offense Sidewalker).
An apple is an apple, and only one apple. But see, apple does not first exist only in our minds, first it exists outside, as a physical thing you can stuff down your throat.
That some animals can as well count is no proof that numbers exist the way you claim them to. All it shows is that those animals have an inkling of an abstract mind.
http://www.scientificamerican.com...
Absolutely nothing to do with numbers being real as a fundamental part of our world.
http://www.care2.com...
The same.
http://www.newscientist.com...
And again the same.
That means numbers are independently exist, not just in human mind or brain.
Numbers do not independently exist, that is just plain impossible. All it shows is that some animals have an evolving mind that goes beyond mere hunting for food (or not... as I actually checked out one article...).
Those animals do not know that they count, they do not know what numbers are, because they haven't come up with it. We see them doing something similar to what we can do and we interpret it as them "counting". Those animals do not use numbers, they don't know they "count", they have more like emotions, or whatever that is what precedes, in relation to us, words. Those animals can't count to thousands and millions like we do, because they haven't created for themselves a numerical system, they don't even know what a numerical system is.

Our universe is made of particles, energies, forces, and/or whatever else, and how they affect each other, and not numbers. Those things enable us, and we in turn create languages to describe ourselves and what is around us, and numbers are part of that language.
Why would you even think that numbers are a fundamental part of the structure of our universe?
Sidewalker
Posts: 3,713
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12/11/2013 7:12:48 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/11/2013 3:05:40 PM, tahir.imanov wrote:
@nummi
numerical system does not matter. 1 is 1 and 0 is 0 in all numerical systems.
Numbers are not just some notions and chemical reactions in our brain. 1 apple is objectively 1 apple, no one is going to say it is 3 (there may be some idiots, who can say that). And numbers are not notions that humans have, animals can count also (that proves some animals are smarter than some people, no offense Sidewalker).
http://www.scientificamerican.com...
http://www.care2.com...
http://www.newscientist.com...
That means numbers are independently exist, not just in human mind or brain.

That isn't numbers existing independently of mind, those animals have minds. Show me a rock that can count and then maybe this would make sense....nah, it still wouldn't make sense.
"It is one of the commonest of mistakes to consider that the limit of our power of perception is also the limit of all there is to perceive." " C. W. Leadbeater
Sidewalker
Posts: 3,713
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12/11/2013 7:34:29 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/11/2013 2:38:22 PM, tahir.imanov wrote:
Assume there exist two universes, and you have means to travel from one universe to other. you take n number of apples in universe-1 and travel to universe-2. How many apples do you have?

You've obviously never been through an intra-universe customs checkpoint, anyone who has can tell you that you aren't allowed to bring fruit through,

Now, suppose you take that apples an go out of space and time how many apples do you have???

Nonsense, the out of space and time customs and border protection agents don't let you bring anything through.

You've obviously never done any inter-universal or inter-dimensional traveling before.
"It is one of the commonest of mistakes to consider that the limit of our power of perception is also the limit of all there is to perceive." " C. W. Leadbeater
abyteofbrain
Posts: 54
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12/11/2013 10:23:34 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Numbers don't exist, but a number of things does exist, and the idea of numbers exists. A number by it's self is nothing. It is not an idea. The idea of numbers is an idea, but numbers is not. Numbers is not mass, nor is it space. If you write "numbers" on a paper, what you see is a representation of a number of somthing, it is not the number it's self.
abyteofbrain
Posts: 54
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12/11/2013 10:24:28 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/9/2013 7:54:44 PM, uniqueusername wrote:
6451326872187646584653241645156465846854768546583465847658476857

oh wow, they exist.

Those are only representations.
kawaii_crazy
Posts: 580
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12/12/2013 9:44:38 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
yup
"Being called weird is like being called Limited Edition. Meaning you're something people don't see that often." -Ashley Purdy

Please help raise money for a Christmas gift for airmax (although he is Jewish, as YYW pointed out). He is in desperate need of a new laptop, and he has done so much for this site; he certainly deserves one. :)
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kbub
Posts: 1,377
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12/13/2013 10:53:21 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/11/2013 10:24:28 PM, abyteofbrain wrote:
At 12/9/2013 7:54:44 PM, uniqueusername wrote:
6451326872187646584653241645156465846854768546583465847658476857

oh wow, they exist.

Those are only representations.

Representations exist. If numbers didn't exist we couldn't talk about them. Similarly, words are representations and they also exist.
Numbers are certainly reliant on the mind, but so does every other aspect of reality. Since we are talking from the perspective of a mind always, numbers certainly exist.
tahir.imanov
Posts: 272
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12/17/2013 3:32:26 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/11/2013 5:10:10 PM, nummi wrote:
At 12/11/2013 3:05:40 PM, tahir.imanov wrote:
numerical system does not matter. 1 is 1 and 0 is 0 in all numerical systems.
How about a system where there are 26 base numbers? In that case 9 is 9, 10 is 10, but 11 is not 11, and so on. This basically proves you wrong already.

Dude numerical system does not matter, and numerals are signs which represents numbers. I can make my own numerals based on duodecimal system. But they will represent the same amount with the numeral used in decimal system.
#^7^li = 13,264,565
Upgrade your knowledge on numerals and numerical system.
11 in dozenal system is not "eleven".
This is red.
tahir.imanov
Posts: 272
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12/17/2013 4:00:06 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/11/2013 10:23:34 PM, abyteofbrain wrote:
Numbers don't exist, but a number of things does exist, and the idea of numbers exists. A number by it's self is nothing. It is not an idea. The idea of numbers is an idea, but numbers is not. Numbers is not mass, nor is it space. If you write "numbers" on a paper, what you see is a representation of a number of somthing, it is not the number it's self.

1st problem : number of things exist. give me 3+2i apples and `0; bananas.
As I said mathematical nominalism comes with problems.

2nd problem : numbers are ideas.
For sake of argument, let's assume numbers are abstract ideas in our mind. Are they subjective or objective?
If it is subjective the one apple is two apples for some people.
If it is objective, then it comes with more problems
This is red.
abyteofbrain
Posts: 54
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12/17/2013 4:04:32 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/17/2013 4:00:06 PM, tahir.imanov wrote:
At 12/11/2013 10:23:34 PM, abyteofbrain wrote:
Numbers don't exist, but a number of things does exist, and the idea of numbers exists. A number by it's self is nothing. It is not an idea. The idea of numbers is an idea, but numbers is not. Numbers is not mass, nor is it space. If you write "numbers" on a paper, what you see is a representation of a number of somthing, it is not the number it's self.

1st problem : number of things exist. give me 3+2i apples and `0; bananas.
As I said mathematical nominalism comes with problems.

2nd problem : numbers are ideas.
For sake of argument, let's assume numbers are abstract ideas in our mind. Are they subjective or objective?
If it is subjective the one apple is two apples for some people.
If it is objective, then it comes with more problems

What I was saying, is that the idea of numbers is different from actual numbers, but then i guess it comes down to the definition of ideas.
nummi
Posts: 294
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12/17/2013 5:47:20 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Dude numerical system does not matter, and numerals are signs which represents numbers. I can make my own numerals based on duodecimal system. But they will represent the same amount with the numeral used in decimal system.
#^7^li = 13,264,565
Upgrade your knowledge on numerals and numerical system.
11 in dozenal system is not "eleven".
Numbers are part of our language. If you think numbers are somehow an inherent part of our universe then you must think exactly the same about words. Are words an inherent part of our universe, part of the structure of our universe?

I know enough about numbers to say that they do not exist as anything else but made up by humans to make our lives easier.

What are numbers as in our minds? Processes between all atoms, molecules, and particles our minds are made of, numbers in our minds are made of the same stuff all our thoughts are made of. Can you understand this? And those same things our minds are made of are in essence the same things our entire universe is made of. Can you understand this? There are no numbers in the structure of our minds, nor in that of our universe.
"11" in dozenal system is eleven; the amount of "11" in one system is the same amount in the other. Unless you have created a different way of calling that 11, or a different way of writing it, or pronouncing it. Only then would it not be "eleven".

Just wondering, are you referring with all this to a continuous stream of "numbers", without a numerical system. As if each and every number was on its own, a base number? It is easy to think of, but good luck beginning to name all those numbers.

As well, if what you suggest would be real, then that would mean our universe is endless. As you are aware, there's no end to numbers, they can go on infinitely. Sure, it might be endless either way but presently there is no way to know. Even if it should some day turn out endless it would not mean it's all made of numbers.

Say there's matter, different kinds. There's an amount of matter, base amount, let's refer to it as "1". But you see, this matter can combine with each other. You take two of this matter and refer to that pair as "2". But whoops, what happened? They combined, fused. Now those two are "1", yet that new "1" is bigger than the base "1", not right tat all, is it? Perhaps then "2"? No, it's far too small to be called "2". Let's call it "1,5", problem solved. But... wait... that's not right, you can't split numbers because they are the base things, they are what everything is made of! Everything has to be reevaluated... okay, done, good, everything's fine now.
Then the combined elements split up and the entire thing is a mess yet again. Get it? Numbers are real, but only as part of our language and nothing more.

Or you think there's numbers for each and every scenario? Wouldn't that be convenient... If so then please instead refer to a holy book of "Unicorns and Popsicle Land" 'cause we really don't need yet another fantasy labeled as reality, there's enough trouble with the current ones.