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Why did you become an atheist/theist?

zmikecuber
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12/16/2013 6:31:25 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
I just thought this would be interesting. If you were a theist at one time, and became an atheist, why? If you were an atheist and became a theist, why? What finally convinced you to switch your worldview?

This type of thing has probably been done before, but I'm somewhat new to this site, and just figured I'd throw it out there... I'm most interested in the atheist to theist conversion stories, since they seem less usual.
"Delete your fvcking sig" -1hard

"primal man had the habit, when he came into contact with fire, of satisfying the infantile desire connected with it, by putting it out with a stream of his urine... Putting out the fire by micturating was therefore a kind of sexual act with a male, an enjoyment of sexual potency in a homosexual competition."
InvictusManeo
Posts: 384
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12/17/2013 4:30:14 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/16/2013 6:31:25 PM, zmikecuber wrote:
I just thought this would be interesting. If you were a theist at one time, and became an atheist, why? If you were an atheist and became a theist, why? What finally convinced you to switch your worldview?

I was a Christian until I was 18 (well a month before my 18th birthday). In retrospect my de-conversion happened over a number of years. I never took the Bible literally so you could say I was more of a liberal/soft Christian. A year before my de-conversion I began a study on religion and science that lead me to questioning the validity of the Bible's hiristocity and once I acknowledged the many errors contained within the Bible I stopped going to church and largely ignored that aspect of myself. I remember still praying on occasion but that was about it.

The actual moment that it clicked in my head was immediately after my mum, sister and I prayed together about something tragic that had happened, and I just thought the notion of prayer itself was absurd. Then it was a domino effect. Once I considered prayer to be illogical, every other aspect of my faith followed suit. It happened very quickly but like I said, the actual process took years.

This type of thing has probably been done before, but I'm somewhat new to this site, and just figured I'd throw it out there... I'm most interested in the atheist to theist conversion stories, since they seem less usual.

It rarely happens for a reason. There's a certain intellectual death that occurs when you believe in a god of any religion, that it's much easier to mold a younger brain that is less aware than a mature one. Born-agains don't count either.
zmikecuber
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12/17/2013 8:54:57 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/17/2013 4:30:14 AM, InvictusManeo wrote:
At 12/16/2013 6:31:25 PM, zmikecuber wrote:
I just thought this would be interesting. If you were a theist at one time, and became an atheist, why? If you were an atheist and became a theist, why? What finally convinced you to switch your worldview?

I was a Christian until I was 18 (well a month before my 18th birthday). In retrospect my de-conversion happened over a number of years. I never took the Bible literally so you could say I was more of a liberal/soft Christian. A year before my de-conversion I began a study on religion and science that lead me to questioning the validity of the Bible's hiristocity and once I acknowledged the many errors contained within the Bible I stopped going to church and largely ignored that aspect of myself. I remember still praying on occasion but that was about it.

The actual moment that it clicked in my head was immediately after my mum, sister and I prayed together about something tragic that had happened, and I just thought the notion of prayer itself was absurd. Then it was a domino effect. Once I considered prayer to be illogical, every other aspect of my faith followed suit. It happened very quickly but like I said, the actual process took years.

This type of thing has probably been done before, but I'm somewhat new to this site, and just figured I'd throw it out there... I'm most interested in the atheist to theist conversion stories, since they seem less usual.

It rarely happens for a reason. There's a certain intellectual death that occurs when you believe in a god of any religion, that it's much easier to mold a younger brain that is less aware than a mature one. Born-agains don't count either.

Very interesting! I wonder if Popculturepooka would disagree with what you said in your last paragraph though.
"Delete your fvcking sig" -1hard

"primal man had the habit, when he came into contact with fire, of satisfying the infantile desire connected with it, by putting it out with a stream of his urine... Putting out the fire by micturating was therefore a kind of sexual act with a male, an enjoyment of sexual potency in a homosexual competition."
BlindFollower
Posts: 13
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12/17/2013 11:19:55 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
When my parents told me to. :)
What do the Mafia and a p*ssy have in common? One slip of the tongue, and you're in deep sh*t.
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,926
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12/17/2013 12:31:10 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/17/2013 8:54:57 AM, zmikecuber wrote:
At 12/17/2013 4:30:14 AM, InvictusManeo wrote:
At 12/16/2013 6:31:25 PM, zmikecuber wrote:
I just thought this would be interesting. If you were a theist at one time, and became an atheist, why? If you were an atheist and became a theist, why? What finally convinced you to switch your worldview?

I was a Christian until I was 18 (well a month before my 18th birthday). In retrospect my de-conversion happened over a number of years. I never took the Bible literally so you could say I was more of a liberal/soft Christian. A year before my de-conversion I began a study on religion and science that lead me to questioning the validity of the Bible's hiristocity and once I acknowledged the many errors contained within the Bible I stopped going to church and largely ignored that aspect of myself. I remember still praying on occasion but that was about it.

The actual moment that it clicked in my head was immediately after my mum, sister and I prayed together about something tragic that had happened, and I just thought the notion of prayer itself was absurd. Then it was a domino effect. Once I considered prayer to be illogical, every other aspect of my faith followed suit. It happened very quickly but like I said, the actual process took years.

This type of thing has probably been done before, but I'm somewhat new to this site, and just figured I'd throw it out there... I'm most interested in the atheist to theist conversion stories, since they seem less usual.

It rarely happens for a reason. There's a certain intellectual death that occurs when you believe in a god of any religion, that it's much easier to mold a younger brain that is less aware than a mature one. Born-agains don't count either.

Very interesting! I wonder if Popculturepooka would disagree with what you said in your last paragraph though.

Of course I would. It's got to be one of the silliest things I've ever heard.

Anyways, I'll tell my story when I get back from vacation.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
zmikecuber
Posts: 4,093
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12/17/2013 12:36:47 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/17/2013 12:31:10 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 12/17/2013 8:54:57 AM, zmikecuber wrote:
At 12/17/2013 4:30:14 AM, InvictusManeo wrote:
At 12/16/2013 6:31:25 PM, zmikecuber wrote:
I just thought this would be interesting. If you were a theist at one time, and became an atheist, why? If you were an atheist and became a theist, why? What finally convinced you to switch your worldview?

I was a Christian until I was 18 (well a month before my 18th birthday). In retrospect my de-conversion happened over a number of years. I never took the Bible literally so you could say I was more of a liberal/soft Christian. A year before my de-conversion I began a study on religion and science that lead me to questioning the validity of the Bible's hiristocity and once I acknowledged the many errors contained within the Bible I stopped going to church and largely ignored that aspect of myself. I remember still praying on occasion but that was about it.

The actual moment that it clicked in my head was immediately after my mum, sister and I prayed together about something tragic that had happened, and I just thought the notion of prayer itself was absurd. Then it was a domino effect. Once I considered prayer to be illogical, every other aspect of my faith followed suit. It happened very quickly but like I said, the actual process took years.

This type of thing has probably been done before, but I'm somewhat new to this site, and just figured I'd throw it out there... I'm most interested in the atheist to theist conversion stories, since they seem less usual.

It rarely happens for a reason. There's a certain intellectual death that occurs when you believe in a god of any religion, that it's much easier to mold a younger brain that is less aware than a mature one. Born-agains don't count either.

Very interesting! I wonder if Popculturepooka would disagree with what you said in your last paragraph though.

Of course I would. It's got to be one of the silliest things I've ever heard.

Lol. I figured as much ;)


Anyways, I'll tell my story when I get back from vacation.

I'd be very interested to hear that.
"Delete your fvcking sig" -1hard

"primal man had the habit, when he came into contact with fire, of satisfying the infantile desire connected with it, by putting it out with a stream of his urine... Putting out the fire by micturating was therefore a kind of sexual act with a male, an enjoyment of sexual potency in a homosexual competition."
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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12/17/2013 12:42:31 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
This quote about sums it up:

"I have too much respect for the idea of God to hold him responsible for such an absurd world." - Georges Duhamel French author (1884 - 1966)
mookestink
Posts: 8
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12/17/2013 5:35:24 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/16/2013 6:31:25 PM, zmikecuber wrote:
I just thought this would be interesting. If you were a theist at one time, and became an atheist, why? If you were an atheist and became a theist, why? What finally convinced you to switch your worldview?

This type of thing has probably been done before, but I'm somewhat new to this site, and just figured I'd throw it out there... I'm most interested in the atheist to theist conversion stories, since they seem less usual.

My story is similar to a prison conversion. I suffer from schizophrenia (paranoia, delusions, hallucinations), and I spend a lot of time in hospitals. The last time I was in the hospital I couldn't get it out of my head that everyone was trying to kill me, either in my sleep or by poisoning the food.

For the first time I can remember, I started to pray to God for protection.

When my serotonin levels were back to normal, I considered becoming an atheist again. But, to check what I might be missing out on, I decided to go to a church. The people were fantastic and enthusiastic; and, nobody I mentioned my illness to treated me like a second class citizen.

I have doubt ingrained in me from years studying epistemology, but I'm able to ignore it in this case. Sometimes you just have to learn to doubt the veracity your own doubt.
Installgentoo
Posts: 1,420
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12/17/2013 8:54:47 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/17/2013 4:30:14 AM, InvictusManeo wrote:
At 12/16/2013 6:31:25 PM, zmikecuber wrote:

It rarely happens for a reason. There's a certain intellectual death that occurs when you believe in a god of any religion, that it's much easier to mold a younger brain that is less aware than a mature one. Born-agains don't count either.

So all the people who believed in God, like Einstein, went through intellectual death when they accepted their version of God?
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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12/17/2013 9:22:51 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/17/2013 8:54:47 PM, Installgentoo wrote:
At 12/17/2013 4:30:14 AM, InvictusManeo wrote:
At 12/16/2013 6:31:25 PM, zmikecuber wrote:

It rarely happens for a reason. There's a certain intellectual death that occurs when you believe in a god of any religion, that it's much easier to mold a younger brain that is less aware than a mature one. Born-agains don't count either.

So all the people who believed in God, like Einstein, went through intellectual death when they accepted their version of God?

Einstein didn't believe in God.

"The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. No interpretation no matter how subtle can (for me) change this." - Albert Einstein [Letter to philosopher Eric Gutkind, January 3, 1954]

"It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it." - Albert Einstein [Einstein: The Human Side, edited by Helen Dukas & Banesh Hoffman]

"During the youthful period of mankind's spiritual evolution, human fantasy created gods in man's own image who, by the operations of their will were supposed to determine, or at any rate influence, the phenomenal world." - Albert Einstein [2000 Years of Disbelief, James Haught]

"It seems to me that the idea of a personal God is an anthropological concept which I cannot take seriously." Albert Einstein ["Religion and Science," New York Times Magazine, November 9, 1930]

---

Einstein once said that if he believed in any God, it would have to be Spinoza's God.

"I believe in Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the orderly harmony of what exists, not in a God who concerns himself with the fates and actions of human beings." - Albert Einstein [response to Rabbi Herbert Goldstein's question "Do you believe in God?" quoted in: Has Science Found God?, by Victor J Stenger]

But, really, Spinoza's God is just Atheism/ Naturalism wrapped up in a pretty little bow.

"Spinoza asserted that for a concept of god to make any sense at all, it must simply be nature. That is, god cannot be something outside nature that controls it, but must necessarily be part of it. According to Spinoza, God is nature." [http://www.waterwind.com...]
InvictusManeo
Posts: 384
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12/17/2013 11:42:34 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/17/2013 12:31:10 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
Of course I would. It's got to be one of the silliest things I've ever heard.

And I'm not surprised you do, being a Christian yourself. It's hard to admit the truth when you spend so much time and energy into building your own version of it in your mind to support your belief system.

Just to be clear though, I don't have a problem with people using religion to make themselves happy. I could have lived out my life as a deist or very soft Christian and been quite happy. I wouldn't have harmed anyone. It's fine to do, but like I did, at some point you have to acknowledge that you believe what you believe for a reason, and that reason has nothing to do with truth value.

At 12/17/2013 8:54:47 PM, Installgentoo wrote:
So all the people who believed in God, like Einstein, went through intellectual death when they accepted their version of God?

Just to add to what Rational Thinker said, do you think Einstein would/could have converted to Christianity, or Catholicism, or Judaism, or Sikhism in his adult life?

I hate how people misquote Einstein as being religious to support the major religions because some genius liked to use the word. It's so easy to fact check this stuff, guys. Stop living in a coma and wake up.
popculturepooka
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12/18/2013 2:05:13 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/17/2013 11:42:34 PM, InvictusManeo wrote:
At 12/17/2013 12:31:10 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
Of course I would. It's got to be one of the silliest things I've ever heard.

And I'm not surprised you do, being a Christian yourself. It's hard to admit the truth when you spend so much time and energy into building your own version of it in your mind to support your belief system.


*yawn*

Are you going to actually argue for your claim or no?

Just to be clear though, I don't have a problem with people using religion to make themselves happy. I could have lived out my life as a deist or very soft Christian and been quite happy. I wouldn't have harmed anyone. It's fine to do, but like I did, at some point you have to acknowledge that you believe what you believe for a reason, and that reason has nothing to do with truth value.


Now you can read minds? Does becoming an atheist give you these magical powers?

At 12/17/2013 8:54:47 PM, Installgentoo wrote:
So all the people who believed in God, like Einstein, went through intellectual death when they accepted their version of God?

Just to add to what Rational Thinker said, do you think Einstein would/could have converted to Christianity, or Catholicism, or Judaism, or Sikhism in his adult life?

I hate how people misquote Einstein as being religious to support the major religions because some genius liked to use the word. It's so easy to fact check this stuff, guys. Stop living in a coma and wake up.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,926
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12/18/2013 2:12:58 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/18/2013 2:05:13 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 12/17/2013 11:42:34 PM, InvictusManeo wrote:
At 12/17/2013 12:31:10 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
Of course I would. It's got to be one of the silliest things I've ever heard.

And I'm not surprised you do, being a Christian yourself. It's hard to admit the truth when you spend so much time and energy into building your own version of it in your mind to support your belief system.


*yawn*

Are you going to actually argue for your claim or no?


I'd also can't help but note how remarkably asinine and condescending your comment(s) are. That'd be like me saying that of course you'd say something so silly; you're an atheist. *rolls eyes*

Just to be clear though, I don't have a problem with people using religion to make themselves happy. I could have lived out my life as a deist or very soft Christian and been quite happy. I wouldn't have harmed anyone. It's fine to do, but like I did, at some point you have to acknowledge that you believe what you believe for a reason, and that reason has nothing to do with truth value.


Now you can read minds? Does becoming an atheist give you these magical powers?


At 12/17/2013 8:54:47 PM, Installgentoo wrote:
So all the people who believed in God, like Einstein, went through intellectual death when they accepted their version of God?

Just to add to what Rational Thinker said, do you think Einstein would/could have converted to Christianity, or Catholicism, or Judaism, or Sikhism in his adult life?

I hate how people misquote Einstein as being religious to support the major religions because some genius liked to use the word. It's so easy to fact check this stuff, guys. Stop living in a coma and wake up.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
InvictusManeo
Posts: 384
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12/18/2013 2:38:25 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
I'm just fortunate enough to have had experience as a theist to know what it entails. I know what believing in god feels like. I know, more specifically, what believing in Jesus feels like. This firsthand experience gives me an edge over most people. It's not so easy to dismiss what I say when I've been one of you before.

You could tell me why I think and believe as I do, but using atheism as a basis for that is pretty weak considering I am not a gnostic atheist. I am agnostic. My atheism is directly compatible to your atheism of every other religion that isn't Christianity. We're both atheists when it comes to Hinduism, aren't we?

If you were an atheist before converting to a religion, I'd have to assume you were raised in an environment whereby your immediate family were religious, or your peers were religious, or you had been a theist as a child but not as an adolescent.

Also, a good chunk of atheists/agnostics are not so out of rational inquiry, but just due to a lack of exposure to religion in their lives. I know many idiotic atheists/agnostics.
dylancatlow
Posts: 12,251
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12/18/2013 9:29:50 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
I was formerly an atheist, and had been one (looking back) for my entire life. It wasn't prompted or shaped by anything in particular, it was just the stance I gravitated toward by de facto. My eventual break from atheism, however, can be attributed to a single event -- my discovery and analysis of the ctmu. It was this work - and this work alone - which overturned everything I thought I knew about reality, and which ultimately inspired and governed my transition into panentheism.
InvictusManeo
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12/18/2013 12:13:51 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/18/2013 9:29:50 AM, dylancatlow wrote:
I was formerly an atheist, and had been one (looking back) for my entire life. It wasn't prompted or shaped by anything in particular, it was just the stance I gravitated toward by de facto. My eventual break from atheism, however, can be attributed to a single event -- my discovery and analysis of the ctmu. It was this work - and this work alone - which overturned everything I thought I knew about reality, and which ultimately inspired and governed my transition into panentheism.

This guy (Chris Langan) reminds me of someone I know, and that's not a good thing. Although I can see how one would arrive at panentheism, I don't see how it is any more 'true' than a default state of non-belief or what this belief would serve.
InvictusManeo
Posts: 384
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12/18/2013 12:32:15 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
I mean come on:

How come existence? is answered by the fact that the universe is a global SCSPL operator amounting to one vast, self-selective, self-expressive act of reflexive observer-participation, while how come the quantum? is answered by the hological self-replication of the universe in each one of its microscopic syntactic operators and agent-level telors. Many observer-participants yield one coherent world because, through MU, the universe relates to its contents as a homogeneous distributed syntax that syndiffeonically supports and expresses their distinctions even as they help it evolve through observer-participation and telic recursion. Individual solipsism becomes distributed solipsism through the mutual absorption of SCSPL syntactic operators, made possible by a combination of distributed SCSPL syntax and shared teleology.

*rolls eyes*
dylancatlow
Posts: 12,251
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12/18/2013 3:05:44 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/18/2013 12:13:51 PM, InvictusManeo wrote:
At 12/18/2013 9:29:50 AM, dylancatlow wrote:
I was formerly an atheist, and had been one (looking back) for my entire life. It wasn't prompted or shaped by anything in particular, it was just the stance I gravitated toward by de facto. My eventual break from atheism, however, can be attributed to a single event -- my discovery and analysis of the ctmu. It was this work - and this work alone - which overturned everything I thought I knew about reality, and which ultimately inspired and governed my transition into panentheism.

This guy (Chris Langan) reminds me of someone I know, and that's not a good thing. Although I can see how one would arrive at panentheism, I don't see how it is any more 'true' than a default state of non-belief or what this belief would serve.

Panentheism is not pantheism, mind you.
InvictusManeo
Posts: 384
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12/18/2013 3:07:50 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/18/2013 3:05:44 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 12/18/2013 12:13:51 PM, InvictusManeo wrote:
At 12/18/2013 9:29:50 AM, dylancatlow wrote:
I was formerly an atheist, and had been one (looking back) for my entire life. It wasn't prompted or shaped by anything in particular, it was just the stance I gravitated toward by de facto. My eventual break from atheism, however, can be attributed to a single event -- my discovery and analysis of the ctmu. It was this work - and this work alone - which overturned everything I thought I knew about reality, and which ultimately inspired and governed my transition into panentheism.

This guy (Chris Langan) reminds me of someone I know, and that's not a good thing. Although I can see how one would arrive at panentheism, I don't see how it is any more 'true' than a default state of non-belief or what this belief would serve.

Panentheism is not pantheism, mind you.

No, but what does that matter when both make claims about truths of the supernatural?
dylancatlow
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12/18/2013 3:18:00 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/18/2013 3:07:50 PM, InvictusManeo wrote:
At 12/18/2013 3:05:44 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 12/18/2013 12:13:51 PM, InvictusManeo wrote:
At 12/18/2013 9:29:50 AM, dylancatlow wrote:
I was formerly an atheist, and had been one (looking back) for my entire life. It wasn't prompted or shaped by anything in particular, it was just the stance I gravitated toward by de facto. My eventual break from atheism, however, can be attributed to a single event -- my discovery and analysis of the ctmu. It was this work - and this work alone - which overturned everything I thought I knew about reality, and which ultimately inspired and governed my transition into panentheism.

This guy (Chris Langan) reminds me of someone I know, and that's not a good thing. Although I can see how one would arrive at panentheism, I don't see how it is any more 'true' than a default state of non-belief or what this belief would serve.

Panentheism is not pantheism, mind you.

No, but what does that matter when both make claims about truths of the supernatural?

Your remark that "I don't see how it is any more 'true' than a default state of non-belief or what this belief would serve" implies that you find no fundamental difference between panentheism and non-belief (atheism), which is absurd, so I gave you the benefit of the doubt that you were referring to pantheism.
InvictusManeo
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12/18/2013 3:24:38 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/18/2013 3:18:00 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
Your remark that "I don't see how it is any more 'true' than a default state of non-belief or what this belief would serve" implies that you find no fundamental difference between panentheism and non-belief (atheism), which is absurd, so I gave you the benefit of the doubt that you were referring to pantheism.

No, read what I said again. You claimed to have previously been an atheist and must have found some truth value in panentheism that was lacking in atheism, and I am wondering why that is and why specifically you consider panentheism any different from pantheism/deism or any other belief in the supernatural for that matter.

I often hear about deists/pantheists who believe as they do and that because they do not believe in a monotheistic god or a god of any religion they are somehow closer to the truth than others. Really it's all the same.
Rational_Thinker9119
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12/18/2013 3:31:37 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/18/2013 3:24:38 PM, InvictusManeo wrote:
At 12/18/2013 3:18:00 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
Your remark that "I don't see how it is any more 'true' than a default state of non-belief or what this belief would serve" implies that you find no fundamental difference between panentheism and non-belief (atheism), which is absurd, so I gave you the benefit of the doubt that you were referring to pantheism.

No, read what I said again. You claimed to have previously been an atheist and must have found some truth value in panentheism that was lacking in atheism, and I am wondering why that is and why specifically you consider panentheism any different from pantheism/deism or any other belief in the supernatural for that matter.

I often hear about deists/pantheists who believe as they do and that because they do not believe in a monotheistic god or a god of any religion they are somehow closer to the truth than others. Really it's all the same.

I disagree that it is all the same. Some views of God are simply more likely than others. Personally, I think panentheism is probably the most plausible conception of God.
dylancatlow
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12/18/2013 3:47:16 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/18/2013 3:24:38 PM, InvictusManeo wrote:
At 12/18/2013 3:18:00 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
Your remark that "I don't see how it is any more 'true' than a default state of non-belief or what this belief would serve" implies that you find no fundamental difference between panentheism and non-belief (atheism), which is absurd, so I gave you the benefit of the doubt that you were referring to pantheism.

No, read what I said again. You claimed to have previously been an atheist and must have found some truth value in panentheism that was lacking in atheism, and I am wondering why that is and why specifically you consider panentheism any different from pantheism/deism or any other belief in the supernatural for that matter.

In answer to your first question: the truth value that God exists, and in regard to your second question (and in supplementation to the first): panentheism differs from pantheism and deism in that it regards the universe as merely the output stage of reality (at least my version), and God as something encompassing the reality we see, not as something which is merely synonymous with it.

I often hear about deists/pantheists who believe as they do and that because they do not believe in a monotheistic god or a god of any religion they are somehow closer to the truth than others. Really it's all the same.

Really, it's not.
InvictusManeo
Posts: 384
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12/18/2013 4:22:19 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/18/2013 3:31:37 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
I disagree that it is all the same. Some views of God are simply more likely than others. Personally, I think panentheism is probably the most plausible conception of God.

They are all the same in that they claim to have knowledge of the supernatural and/or divine, and it is impossible to have such knowledge by the very nature of how you define god.

At 12/18/2013 3:47:16 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
In answer to your first question: the truth value that God exists, and in regard to your second question (and in supplementation to the first): panentheism differs from pantheism and deism in that it regards the universe as merely the output stage of reality (at least my version), and God as something encompassing the reality we see, not as something which is merely synonymous with it.

Both panentheism and pantheism/deism assume to know who, or what, god is. Thus they are all the same, just variations on a spectrum.

Really, it's not.

It is. And there's no telling which one of us is right.
dylancatlow
Posts: 12,251
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12/18/2013 6:13:46 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/18/2013 4:22:19 PM, InvictusManeo wrote:
At 12/18/2013 3:31:37 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
I disagree that it is all the same. Some views of God are simply more likely than others. Personally, I think panentheism is probably the most plausible conception of God.

They are all the same in that they claim to have knowledge of the supernatural and/or divine, and it is impossible to have such knowledge by the very nature of how you define god.

They are very different, given that pantheism defines God as 'the universe', which obviously exists. Pantheism has no actual implications beyond its de facto rejection of various theological conceptions. In a sense, it's just a semantic stance.

At 12/18/2013 3:47:16 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
In answer to your first question: the truth value that God exists, and in regard to your second question (and in supplementation to the first): panentheism differs from pantheism and deism in that it regards the universe as merely the output stage of reality (at least my version), and God as something encompassing the reality we see, not as something which is merely synonymous with it.

Both panentheism and pantheism/deism assume to know who, or what, god is. Thus they are all the same, just variations on a spectrum.

See above.

Really, it's not.

It is. And there's no telling which one of us is right.

The ctmu (and my panentheism) are predicated solely on logical tautologies. God's existence can be proven if it is proven that one must exist.
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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12/18/2013 6:38:22 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/18/2013 4:22:19 PM, InvictusManeo wrote:
At 12/18/2013 3:31:37 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
I disagree that it is all the same. Some views of God are simply more likely than others. Personally, I think panentheism is probably the most plausible conception of God.

They are all the same in that they claim to have knowledge of the supernatural and/or divine, and it is impossible to have such knowledge by the very nature of how you define god.

This is just plainly false. I know many theists who think God's mind can be described by equations, and that his mind is embedded into nature itself. You don't have to be a supernaturalist to be a theist anymore than you have to be a naturalist to be an atheist.


At 12/18/2013 3:47:16 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
In answer to your first question: the truth value that God exists, and in regard to your second question (and in supplementation to the first): panentheism differs from pantheism and deism in that it regards the universe as merely the output stage of reality (at least my version), and God as something encompassing the reality we see, not as something which is merely synonymous with it.

Both panentheism and pantheism/deism assume to know who, or what, god is. Thus they are all the same, just variations on a spectrum.

Really, it's not.

It is. And there's no telling which one of us is right.
TrueScotsman
Posts: 515
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12/19/2013 4:42:18 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/17/2013 4:30:14 AM, InvictusManeo wrote:

It rarely happens for a reason. There's a certain intellectual death that occurs when you believe in a god of any religion, that it's much easier to mold a younger brain that is less aware than a mature one. Born-agains don't count either.

A certain intellectual death happens when someone believes in a God or religion? As a former atheist I resent that statement, and would contend with you that my mind is sharper than ever. I believe rigid dogmatism can do powerfully negative things to the mind, but this is possible with both atheism and theism.

My basic belief on the matter is that we all live in a world that is sometimes difficult to understand, and at various times we use different methods to understand it, be it faith or skepticism. These methods we tend to use often are a result not of a rational consideration, but largely for existential and emotional reasons. Due to this, I believe one can expect to find very intelligent and rational people on both sides of the spectrum.

What frustrates me is when people assume that there is some kind of intellectual superiority among those of the atheist ilk, or theist ilk. People are people, and it is unwise to form a prejudice on the basis of their religious belief or affiliation.

Just my two cents.

Regards,
TrueScotsman
CanWeKnow
Posts: 217
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12/19/2013 4:51:34 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
I grew up in a Mormon* family with fairly strict parents. Despite having attended church every Sunday for 3 hours, I had never fully read the Bible* or the Book Of Mormon*. As I got into High School and started attending Seminary* I began reading the Bible and the Book of Mormon with my class. It was more in-depth and comprehensive than anything I had experienced at Church. I really wanted to make God and Jesus Christ part of my identity at that point in my life. I started going to Church more, participating in Church activities more, and spending more time praying/thinking.

The hype died down after a while. For a couple years I fought a constant inner battle with what I knew the Church said was right and what my brain thought was right. Sometimes I was an obedient lamb, and other times I decided to use my own moral compass. It didn't come to a pinnacle until I had a conversation with a stranger on Omegle.com. The stranger introduced me to Carl Sagan and I had a copy of Cosmos within the month. From then on I just started absorbing all the information available to me. I had a brief stint with Deism, but then decided that there really isn't any way for me to know if a Deity exists other than my wanting to think there is. Read a lot of things about Philosophy, thought about a lot of things, read some books the Dalai Lama wrote, did more absorbing of information, and eventually landed where I am today. Agnostic Atheism, which I don't think is an improper/ideologically unsound term.

*(Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints)
*(King James Version)
*(Also, the Book of Mormon is NOT a replacement for the Bible, it's considered to be a sanctified addendum.)
*(an off-campus Mormon class that you attend during school hours)
TrueScotsman
Posts: 515
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12/19/2013 5:00:04 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/18/2013 2:38:25 AM, InvictusManeo wrote:
I'm just fortunate enough to have had experience as a theist to know what it entails. I know what believing in god feels like. I know, more specifically, what believing in Jesus feels like. This firsthand experience gives me an edge over most people. It's not so easy to dismiss what I say when I've been one of you before.


This reminds me of the friend who attempts to give you the encouraging sentiment of, "I know how you feel," while all the while you are responding in your head, "no you don't!"

I used to be an atheist, but I don't assume for a second I understand what your life and experiences has been like. I have opinions about why people in general formulate their beliefs, but I don't assume I have some kind of special "insider" knowledge that "gives me an edge."

I have to say this sounds rather naive

You could tell me why I think and believe as I do, but using atheism as a basis for that is pretty weak considering I am not a gnostic atheist. I am agnostic. My atheism is directly compatible to your atheism of every other religion that isn't Christianity. We're both atheists when it comes to Hinduism, aren't we?

If you were an atheist before converting to a religion, I'd have to assume you were raised in an environment whereby your immediate family were religious, or your peers were religious, or you had been a theist as a child but not as an adolescent.


That seems to be due to the fact that you have a very simplistic and uninteresting view of human experience. The fact that someone in this very thread has converted from atheist to theism without the prior belief in God refutes this assumption.

Also, a good chunk of atheists/agnostics are not so out of rational inquiry, but just due to a lack of exposure to religion in their lives. I know many idiotic atheists/agnostics.

Anyone of any view can be an idiot.