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The Brain And Consciousness

Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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12/24/2013 12:11:37 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
What are some good arguments in favor of the notion that the brain cannot produce something like consciousness? I see many people ask "how can thoughts and self-reflection arise from neuron firing?", but I never actually hear an argument demonstrating that it cannot.
InvictusManeo
Posts: 384
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12/24/2013 12:27:49 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
I like the idea that consciousness arives from quantum processes, giving rise tl a 'unversal consciousness' theory. But I have no good arguments for it because I am not a neuroscientist. I've just read too many articles.
jopo
Posts: 509
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12/24/2013 10:16:47 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
I once heard someone argue that the brain cannot have a consciousness because everything is a cause-and-effect chain reaction. They backed this with the idea of neurons firing and their logic was something to this effect: all of our thoughts come from neurons firing; all of our neurons fire in response to our environmental stimuli; we don't have a consciouness/free will - everything we think is simply a predictable response that's caused by our environment.
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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12/24/2013 1:35:31 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/24/2013 12:32:41 AM, InvictusManeo wrote:
This: http://io9.com...

Most scientists reject this theory. The article even eludes to it:

"[T]he vast majority of scientists are disdainful of it"

"The mathematical and scientific basis of Orch-OR is rejected by mainstream mathematicians,philosophers, and scientists." [http://en.wikipedia.org...]
zmikecuber
Posts: 4,091
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12/24/2013 2:20:20 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/24/2013 12:11:37 AM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
What are some good arguments in favor of the notion that the brain cannot produce something like consciousness? I see many people ask "how can thoughts and self-reflection arise from neuron firing?", but I never actually hear an argument demonstrating that it cannot.

Well if neuron firing could create consciousness, doesn't that mean my computer is conscious? Lol...
"Delete your fvcking sig" -1hard

"primal man had the habit, when he came into contact with fire, of satisfying the infantile desire connected with it, by putting it out with a stream of his urine... Putting out the fire by micturating was therefore a kind of sexual act with a male, an enjoyment of sexual potency in a homosexual competition."
zmikecuber
Posts: 4,091
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12/24/2013 2:20:48 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
I mean there doesn't seem to be a whole lot of a difference between "neuron firing" and computer processing.
"Delete your fvcking sig" -1hard

"primal man had the habit, when he came into contact with fire, of satisfying the infantile desire connected with it, by putting it out with a stream of his urine... Putting out the fire by micturating was therefore a kind of sexual act with a male, an enjoyment of sexual potency in a homosexual competition."
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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12/24/2013 2:26:58 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/24/2013 2:20:20 PM, zmikecuber wrote:
At 12/24/2013 12:11:37 AM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
What are some good arguments in favor of the notion that the brain cannot produce something like consciousness? I see many people ask "how can thoughts and self-reflection arise from neuron firing?", but I never actually hear an argument demonstrating that it cannot.

Well if neuron firing could create consciousness, doesn't that mean my computer is conscious? Lol...

No.
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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12/24/2013 2:27:50 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/24/2013 2:20:48 PM, zmikecuber wrote:
I mean there doesn't seem to be a whole lot of a difference between "neuron firing" and computer processing.

Many people believe that when computing gets more powerful, we can create conscious AIs. The brain is more complicated than any computer we know of right now.
whatledge
Posts: 210
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12/24/2013 2:48:56 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/24/2013 12:11:37 AM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
What are some good arguments in favor of the notion that the brain cannot produce something like consciousness? I see many people ask "how can thoughts and self-reflection arise from neuron firing?", but I never actually hear an argument demonstrating that it cannot.

I think people that reject the brain's relation to consciousness are pandering to their belief in a literal "soul." Otherwise, the evidence is staggering that the brain is responsible for consciousness.
zmikecuber
Posts: 4,091
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12/24/2013 3:51:47 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/24/2013 2:27:50 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 12/24/2013 2:20:48 PM, zmikecuber wrote:
I mean there doesn't seem to be a whole lot of a difference between "neuron firing" and computer processing.

Many people believe that when computing gets more powerful, we can create conscious AIs. The brain is more complicated than any computer we know of right now.

Well that's odd, then. That a computer has to be "x" powerful before it generates consciousness.
"Delete your fvcking sig" -1hard

"primal man had the habit, when he came into contact with fire, of satisfying the infantile desire connected with it, by putting it out with a stream of his urine... Putting out the fire by micturating was therefore a kind of sexual act with a male, an enjoyment of sexual potency in a homosexual competition."
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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12/24/2013 4:26:27 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/24/2013 3:51:47 PM, zmikecuber wrote:
At 12/24/2013 2:27:50 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 12/24/2013 2:20:48 PM, zmikecuber wrote:
I mean there doesn't seem to be a whole lot of a difference between "neuron firing" and computer processing.

Many people believe that when computing gets more powerful, we can create conscious AIs. The brain is more complicated than any computer we know of right now.

Well that's odd, then. That a computer has to be "x" powerful before it generates consciousness.

Why not? Temperature must be X hot before it burns my skin. Why is it odd for something to have to be "x" amount of Y before Z occurs?
InvictusManeo
Posts: 384
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12/24/2013 4:43:14 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/24/2013 1:35:31 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 12/24/2013 12:32:41 AM, InvictusManeo wrote:
This: http://io9.com...

Most scientists reject this theory. The article even eludes to it:

"[T]he vast majority of scientists are disdainful of it"

"The mathematical and scientific basis of Orch-OR is rejected by mainstream mathematicians,philosophers, and scientists." [http://en.wikipedia.org...]

While I won't attempt to argue in favour of a universal consciousness theory, because I have only rudimentary knowledge on the concept at most, I do not like the reasoning that "X is largely rejected by scientists therefore X is likely to be untrue". Throughout history many scientific ideas were largely discounted before being accepted in the mainstream, so it doesn't really mean anything to me when you say that.

Of course, I am not supposing universal consciousness to be true because I do not know. I just like the idea and I think it makes sense. Mostly because it reminds me of a quote from Carl Sagan:

"Some part of our being knows this is where we came from. We long to return. And we can. Because the cosmos is also within us. We're made of star-stuff. We are a way for the cosmos to know itself."
InvictusManeo
Posts: 384
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12/24/2013 4:43:46 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
I don't think there is any way an individual consciousness could be carried over into some form of afterlife, though.