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Choice of belief and God.

Magic8000
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12/25/2013 5:42:16 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Here's something interesting I've been pondering lately.

Let's say atheism is wrong and Christianity is true. Yet, people remain atheists. Why would this be? Maybe because

1. They have poor reasoning abilities.
or
2. They don't like the idea of Christianity

There could be more, but these are all I can come up with at the time. Interestingly, God would be highly immoral to send atheists to hell for 1, because we don't choose our reasoning abilities. I just can't snap my figures and use the Schrodinger equation on a uranium atom because my mathematical reasoning abilities sadly aren't at that level. Perhaps they never will be, I may not ever be able to grasp it. I'd like to, but I don't choose my reasoning abilities. Sending an atheist to hell for poor reasoning would essentially be sending someone to hell for having brown eyes, both are out of their control.

Perhaps 2 would be reasonable enough to send the heathen to hell. However, this too is out of the realm of control. I don't choose what I like. I can't like gangster rap at the drop of a hat. It is again not reasonable for an atheist to be sent to hell for his emotional hate for God, because he didn't choose that either.

So it seems we can't choose what to believe. It must be based on evidence, which must be interpreted by someone with sound mental function. Which is out of the control of the subject. Making God a bastard for sending people to hell or accepting people into heaven for belief. Essentially, you must be born and raised right to get into heaven.
404 coherent debate topic not found. Please restart the debate with clear resolution.

"So Magic8000 believes Einstein was a proctologist who was persuaded by the Government and Hitler to fabricate the Theory of Relativity"- GWL-CPA
sadolite
Posts: 8,837
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12/25/2013 6:44:20 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Yet if you don't believe in all of the science behind evolution you will be sent to a hell on earth and be marginalized as a sub human dumb azz. Damned if you do damned if you don't.
It's not your views that divide us, it's what you think my views should be that divides us.

If you think I will give up my rights and forsake social etiquette to make you "FEEL" better you are sadly mistaken

If liberal democrats would just stop shooting people gun violence would drop by 90%
Magic8000
Posts: 975
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12/25/2013 7:11:12 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/25/2013 6:44:20 PM, sadolite wrote:
Yet if you don't believe in all of the science behind evolution you will be sent to a hell on earth and be marginalized as a sub human dumb azz. Damned if you do damned if you don't.

http://static.tvtropes.org...
404 coherent debate topic not found. Please restart the debate with clear resolution.

"So Magic8000 believes Einstein was a proctologist who was persuaded by the Government and Hitler to fabricate the Theory of Relativity"- GWL-CPA
EndarkenedRationalist
Posts: 14,201
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12/25/2013 7:40:18 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/25/2013 5:42:16 PM, Magic8000 wrote:
Here's something interesting I've been pondering lately.

Let's say atheism is wrong and Christianity is true. Yet, people remain atheists. Why would this be? Maybe because

1. They have poor reasoning abilities.
or
2. They don't like the idea of Christianity

There could be more, but these are all I can come up with at the time. Interestingly, God would be highly immoral to send atheists to hell for 1, because we don't choose our reasoning abilities. I just can't snap my figures and use the Schrodinger equation on a uranium atom because my mathematical reasoning abilities sadly aren't at that level. Perhaps they never will be, I may not ever be able to grasp it. I'd like to, but I don't choose my reasoning abilities. Sending an atheist to hell for poor reasoning would essentially be sending someone to hell for having brown eyes, both are out of their control.

Perhaps 2 would be reasonable enough to send the heathen to hell. However, this too is out of the realm of control. I don't choose what I like. I can't like gangster rap at the drop of a hat. It is again not reasonable for an atheist to be sent to hell for his emotional hate for God, because he didn't choose that either.

So it seems we can't choose what to believe. It must be based on evidence, which must be interpreted by someone with sound mental function. Which is out of the control of the subject. Making God a bastard for sending people to hell or accepting people into heaven for belief. Essentially, you must be born and raised right to get into heaven.

If we run with that premise - that atheism is false and Christianity is the one true religion - then atheism itself would likely cease to exist. However, people might still reject Christianity. Now, I am not an atheist, but I can think of more reasons beyond the ones you listed - namely that the God of the Bible appears downright evil in many ways. He has a bear murder children because they made fun of a man. He wipes out almost everyone on earth because not enough of them worshipped him. Rather than forgive the sins of people himself, He sent His son down to earth to die.
Magic8000
Posts: 975
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12/25/2013 10:35:45 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/25/2013 7:40:18 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 12/25/2013 5:42:16 PM, Magic8000 wrote:
Here's something interesting I've been pondering lately.

Let's say atheism is wrong and Christianity is true. Yet, people remain atheists. Why would this be? Maybe because

1. They have poor reasoning abilities.
or
2. They don't like the idea of Christianity

There could be more, but these are all I can come up with at the time. Interestingly, God would be highly immoral to send atheists to hell for 1, because we don't choose our reasoning abilities. I just can't snap my figures and use the Schrodinger equation on a uranium atom because my mathematical reasoning abilities sadly aren't at that level. Perhaps they never will be, I may not ever be able to grasp it. I'd like to, but I don't choose my reasoning abilities. Sending an atheist to hell for poor reasoning would essentially be sending someone to hell for having brown eyes, both are out of their control.

Perhaps 2 would be reasonable enough to send the heathen to hell. However, this too is out of the realm of control. I don't choose what I like. I can't like gangster rap at the drop of a hat. It is again not reasonable for an atheist to be sent to hell for his emotional hate for God, because he didn't choose that either.

So it seems we can't choose what to believe. It must be based on evidence, which must be interpreted by someone with sound mental function. Which is out of the control of the subject. Making God a bastard for sending people to hell or accepting people into heaven for belief. Essentially, you must be born and raised right to get into heaven.

If we run with that premise - that atheism is false and Christianity is the one true religion - then atheism itself would likely cease to exist. However, people might still reject Christianity. Now, I am not an atheist, but I can think of more reasons beyond the ones you listed - namely that the God of the Bible appears downright evil in many ways. He has a bear murder children because they made fun of a man. He wipes out almost everyone on earth because not enough of them worshipped him. Rather than forgive the sins of people himself, He sent His son down to earth to die.

This is all there in point one. Point one accounts for all intellectual reasons, since the thought experiment presupposes Christianities truth all reasons against it are hypothetically invalid and appear convincing to those who have poor reasoning abilities. If Christianity was true the likelihood of atheism ceasing is irrelevant. This thought experiment is used to show we have no free will in choosing to believe something and through reductio ad absurdum shows a Christian God is not morally perfect.
404 coherent debate topic not found. Please restart the debate with clear resolution.

"So Magic8000 believes Einstein was a proctologist who was persuaded by the Government and Hitler to fabricate the Theory of Relativity"- GWL-CPA
EndarkenedRationalist
Posts: 14,201
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12/26/2013 7:03:59 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/25/2013 10:35:45 PM, Magic8000 wrote:
At 12/25/2013 7:40:18 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 12/25/2013 5:42:16 PM, Magic8000 wrote:
Here's something interesting I've been pondering lately.

Let's say atheism is wrong and Christianity is true. Yet, people remain atheists. Why would this be? Maybe because

1. They have poor reasoning abilities.
or
2. They don't like the idea of Christianity

There could be more, but these are all I can come up with at the time. Interestingly, God would be highly immoral to send atheists to hell for 1, because we don't choose our reasoning abilities. I just can't snap my figures and use the Schrodinger equation on a uranium atom because my mathematical reasoning abilities sadly aren't at that level. Perhaps they never will be, I may not ever be able to grasp it. I'd like to, but I don't choose my reasoning abilities. Sending an atheist to hell for poor reasoning would essentially be sending someone to hell for having brown eyes, both are out of their control.

Perhaps 2 would be reasonable enough to send the heathen to hell. However, this too is out of the realm of control. I don't choose what I like. I can't like gangster rap at the drop of a hat. It is again not reasonable for an atheist to be sent to hell for his emotional hate for God, because he didn't choose that either.

So it seems we can't choose what to believe. It must be based on evidence, which must be interpreted by someone with sound mental function. Which is out of the control of the subject. Making God a bastard for sending people to hell or accepting people into heaven for belief. Essentially, you must be born and raised right to get into heaven.

If we run with that premise - that atheism is false and Christianity is the one true religion - then atheism itself would likely cease to exist. However, people might still reject Christianity. Now, I am not an atheist, but I can think of more reasons beyond the ones you listed - namely that the God of the Bible appears downright evil in many ways. He has a bear murder children because they made fun of a man. He wipes out almost everyone on earth because not enough of them worshipped him. Rather than forgive the sins of people himself, He sent His son down to earth to die.

This is all there in point one. Point one accounts for all intellectual reasons, since the thought experiment presupposes Christianities truth all reasons against it are hypothetically invalid and appear convincing to those who have poor reasoning abilities. If Christianity was true the likelihood of atheism ceasing is irrelevant. This thought experiment is used to show we have no free will in choosing to believe something and through reductio ad absurdum shows a Christian God is not morally perfect.

I don't associate that with point 1. There are no poor reasoning abilities involved in that evaluation of the God of the Bible. The Christian truth marks it as the right religion, perhaps, but not necessarily a moral one to follow. If tyranny were revealed as the only correct form of government, I'm sure there would still be plenty of reasons to live under other forms and resist tyranny.
Magic8000
Posts: 975
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12/26/2013 11:43:53 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/26/2013 7:03:59 AM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 12/25/2013 10:35:45 PM, Magic8000 wrote:
At 12/25/2013 7:40:18 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 12/25/2013 5:42:16 PM, Magic8000 wrote:
Here's something interesting I've been pondering lately.

Let's say atheism is wrong and Christianity is true. Yet, people remain atheists. Why would this be? Maybe because

1. They have poor reasoning abilities.
or
2. They don't like the idea of Christianity

There could be more, but these are all I can come up with at the time. Interestingly, God would be highly immoral to send atheists to hell for 1, because we don't choose our reasoning abilities. I just can't snap my figures and use the Schrodinger equation on a uranium atom because my mathematical reasoning abilities sadly aren't at that level. Perhaps they never will be, I may not ever be able to grasp it. I'd like to, but I don't choose my reasoning abilities. Sending an atheist to hell for poor reasoning would essentially be sending someone to hell for having brown eyes, both are out of their control.

Perhaps 2 would be reasonable enough to send the heathen to hell. However, this too is out of the realm of control. I don't choose what I like. I can't like gangster rap at the drop of a hat. It is again not reasonable for an atheist to be sent to hell for his emotional hate for God, because he didn't choose that either.

So it seems we can't choose what to believe. It must be based on evidence, which must be interpreted by someone with sound mental function. Which is out of the control of the subject. Making God a bastard for sending people to hell or accepting people into heaven for belief. Essentially, you must be born and raised right to get into heaven.

If we run with that premise - that atheism is false and Christianity is the one true religion - then atheism itself would likely cease to exist. However, people might still reject Christianity. Now, I am not an atheist, but I can think of more reasons beyond the ones you listed - namely that the God of the Bible appears downright evil in many ways. He has a bear murder children because they made fun of a man. He wipes out almost everyone on earth because not enough of them worshipped him. Rather than forgive the sins of people himself, He sent His son down to earth to die.

This is all there in point one. Point one accounts for all intellectual reasons, since the thought experiment presupposes Christianities truth all reasons against it are hypothetically invalid and appear convincing to those who have poor reasoning abilities. If Christianity was true the likelihood of atheism ceasing is irrelevant. This thought experiment is used to show we have no free will in choosing to believe something and through reductio ad absurdum shows a Christian God is not morally perfect.

I don't associate that with point 1. There are no poor reasoning abilities involved in that evaluation of the God of the Bible. The Christian truth marks it as the right religion, perhaps, but not necessarily a moral one to follow. If tyranny were revealed as the only correct form of government, I'm sure there would still be plenty of reasons to live under other forms and resist tyranny.

We're presuming that all objections are the result of poor reasoning. We're assuming the God of the bible is completely moral then showing he cannot be because we have no choice of belief. The other objections in the bible outside this thought experiment are really good and valid, but not relevant when dealing with this argument,
404 coherent debate topic not found. Please restart the debate with clear resolution.

"So Magic8000 believes Einstein was a proctologist who was persuaded by the Government and Hitler to fabricate the Theory of Relativity"- GWL-CPA
zmikecuber
Posts: 4,083
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12/26/2013 12:07:52 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/25/2013 5:42:16 PM, Magic8000 wrote:
Here's something interesting I've been pondering lately.

Let's say atheism is wrong and Christianity is true. Yet, people remain atheists. Why would this be? Maybe because

1. They have poor reasoning abilities.
or
2. They don't like the idea of Christianity

There could be more, but these are all I can come up with at the time. Interestingly, God would be highly immoral to send atheists to hell for 1, because we don't choose our reasoning abilities. I just can't snap my figures and use the Schrodinger equation on a uranium atom because my mathematical reasoning abilities sadly aren't at that level. Perhaps they never will be, I may not ever be able to grasp it. I'd like to, but I don't choose my reasoning abilities. Sending an atheist to hell for poor reasoning would essentially be sending someone to hell for having brown eyes, both are out of their control.

Perhaps 2 would be reasonable enough to send the heathen to hell. However, this too is out of the realm of control. I don't choose what I like. I can't like gangster rap at the drop of a hat. It is again not reasonable for an atheist to be sent to hell for his emotional hate for God, because he didn't choose that either.

So it seems we can't choose what to believe. It must be based on evidence, which must be interpreted by someone with sound mental function. Which is out of the control of the subject. Making God a bastard for sending people to hell or accepting people into heaven for belief. Essentially, you must be born and raised right to get into heaven.

Unless atheists don't automatically go to hell...? Lol. Hell is an interesting topic, but the views on it are all over the board. From "everyone gets to heaven eventually, even the devil" all the way to "only the people God has hand picked get to heaven."

My personal view is that if an atheist truly lives a good life and follows his conscience, then an all-loving God would allow the atheist into heaven, since they've been serving him unknowingly.

Wouldn't "belief" meaning "accepting something as true" be more of an act of the will? I mean believing something, and being absolutely 100% convinced that it is true aren't exactly the same.
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"primal man had the habit, when he came into contact with fire, of satisfying the infantile desire connected with it, by putting it out with a stream of his urine... Putting out the fire by micturating was therefore a kind of sexual act with a male, an enjoyment of sexual potency in a homosexual competition."
EndarkenedRationalist
Posts: 14,201
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12/26/2013 2:22:43 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/26/2013 11:43:53 AM, Magic8000 wrote:
At 12/26/2013 7:03:59 AM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 12/25/2013 10:35:45 PM, Magic8000 wrote:
At 12/25/2013 7:40:18 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 12/25/2013 5:42:16 PM, Magic8000 wrote:
Here's something interesting I've been pondering lately.

Let's say atheism is wrong and Christianity is true. Yet, people remain atheists. Why would this be? Maybe because

1. They have poor reasoning abilities.
or
2. They don't like the idea of Christianity

There could be more, but these are all I can come up with at the time. Interestingly, God would be highly immoral to send atheists to hell for 1, because we don't choose our reasoning abilities. I just can't snap my figures and use the Schrodinger equation on a uranium atom because my mathematical reasoning abilities sadly aren't at that level. Perhaps they never will be, I may not ever be able to grasp it. I'd like to, but I don't choose my reasoning abilities. Sending an atheist to hell for poor reasoning would essentially be sending someone to hell for having brown eyes, both are out of their control.

Perhaps 2 would be reasonable enough to send the heathen to hell. However, this too is out of the realm of control. I don't choose what I like. I can't like gangster rap at the drop of a hat. It is again not reasonable for an atheist to be sent to hell for his emotional hate for God, because he didn't choose that either.

So it seems we can't choose what to believe. It must be based on evidence, which must be interpreted by someone with sound mental function. Which is out of the control of the subject. Making God a bastard for sending people to hell or accepting people into heaven for belief. Essentially, you must be born and raised right to get into heaven.

If we run with that premise - that atheism is false and Christianity is the one true religion - then atheism itself would likely cease to exist. However, people might still reject Christianity. Now, I am not an atheist, but I can think of more reasons beyond the ones you listed - namely that the God of the Bible appears downright evil in many ways. He has a bear murder children because they made fun of a man. He wipes out almost everyone on earth because not enough of them worshipped him. Rather than forgive the sins of people himself, He sent His son down to earth to die.

This is all there in point one. Point one accounts for all intellectual reasons, since the thought experiment presupposes Christianities truth all reasons against it are hypothetically invalid and appear convincing to those who have poor reasoning abilities. If Christianity was true the likelihood of atheism ceasing is irrelevant. This thought experiment is used to show we have no free will in choosing to believe something and through reductio ad absurdum shows a Christian God is not morally perfect.

I don't associate that with point 1. There are no poor reasoning abilities involved in that evaluation of the God of the Bible. The Christian truth marks it as the right religion, perhaps, but not necessarily a moral one to follow. If tyranny were revealed as the only correct form of government, I'm sure there would still be plenty of reasons to live under other forms and resist tyranny.

We're presuming that all objections are the result of poor reasoning. We're assuming the God of the bible is completely moral then showing he cannot be because we have no choice of belief. The other objections in the bible outside this thought experiment are really good and valid, but not relevant when dealing with this argument,

This presumes that there is only one interpretation of the Bible. We know this to be absurd. If God appeared tomorrow and said Christianty is correct, there would still be hundreds or even thousands of groups fighting each other and providing various rationales. Protestants, Catholics, Baptists, Methodists - heck, even Mormons.
Bullish
Posts: 3,527
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12/26/2013 4:11:02 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
(1) is a common problem different Christian sects struggle with, the untouched tribe argument, or the do babies go to heaven argument. Different sects say different things, bu most apologists will say their god will consider these people differently.

(2) seems like a good reason to send someone to hell, depending on whether or not free will exists and how it is defined.
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