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Cheating in school

ben2974
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12/29/2013 9:49:18 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Does NOT cheating in school prepare you better for the real world than if one were to cheat?

Cheating as in: copying homework assignments, letting your group do all the work, peeking on someone else's test, learning the answers to a test beforehand, using forbidden items on tests (calculator on a math test)

I think cheating in school does not prepare you for the real world. The point of school is to test/form key characteristics essential to the work and social environments. School, done with honesty, tests individuals diligence. It tests determination. It tests endurance. School should tell the world how self-capable you are.

If you cheat, you don't develop most of these important qualities. If you don't cheat, school should give an accurate assessment of someone's qualities listed above.
sadolite
Posts: 8,834
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12/29/2013 9:59:11 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Cheating in school prepares you for a life in politics or govt it won't help you get a private sector job.
It's not your views that divide us, it's what you think my views should be that divides us.

If you think I will give up my rights and forsake social etiquette to make you "FEEL" better you are sadly mistaken

If liberal democrats would just stop shooting people gun violence would drop by 90%
nummi
Posts: 294
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12/29/2013 10:02:26 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/29/2013 9:49:18 AM, ben2974 wrote:
Does NOT cheating in school prepare you better for the real world than if one were to cheat?

Cheating as in: copying homework assignments, letting your group do all the work, peeking on someone else's test, learning the answers to a test beforehand, using forbidden items on tests (calculator on a math test)


I think cheating in school does not prepare you for the real world. The point of school is to test/form key characteristics essential to the work and social environments. School, done with honesty, tests individuals diligence. It tests determination. It tests endurance. School should tell the world how self-capable you are.

If you cheat, you don't develop most of these important qualities. If you don't cheat, school should give an accurate assessment of someone's qualities listed above.
Find something you like and something you want to do, something you can enjoy. If that something requires learning then you will learn whatever is needed, without cheating.
Schools force onto you subjects that you do not care about at all nor will ever need, that's where the cheating comes in. You just want it done with, over with.
The result on paper is what people look at, not that which you actually have in your brain - just look at most authority and power figures - they're morons.
YYW
Posts: 36,242
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12/29/2013 8:45:18 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/29/2013 9:49:18 AM, ben2974 wrote:
Does NOT cheating in school prepare you better for the real world than if one were to cheat?

Cheating is a reflection of poor moral character, a lack of integrity and bad values. So, if being a slime ball is something you're interested in -sure, it could be said that cheating prepares you for the real world. If you don't want to be a slime ball, then don't cheat.

Cheating as in: copying homework assignments, letting your group do all the work, peeking on someone else's test, learning the answers to a test beforehand, using forbidden items on tests (calculator on a math test)

As someone who has been both a student and an instructor, I've seen my fair share of cheating -and not all cheating carries, in my view, the same level of moral culpability. I think that copying homework assignments is bad, but not unforgivable depending on the reasoning for cheating. However, I'd rather a student just ask me for an extension or come talk to me and we work something out. Cheating on a test, however, in any form, is on another level -and if it were a college student who cheated, I would be very inclined to go to any length necessary to ensure that the student were expelled. I never had to do that, but I would have been willing to even if it was a student that I really liked.
Dazz
Posts: 1,163
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12/30/2013 3:53:07 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/29/2013 9:49:18 AM, ben2974 wrote:
Does NOT cheating in school prepare you better for the real world than if one were to cheat?

Cheating as in: copying homework assignments, letting your group do all the work, peeking on someone else's test, learning the answers to a test beforehand, using forbidden items on tests (calculator on a math test)


I think cheating in school does not prepare you for the real world. The point of school is to test/form key characteristics essential to the work and social environments. School, done with honesty, tests individuals diligence. It tests determination. It tests endurance. School should tell the world how self-capable you are.

If you cheat, you don't develop most of these important qualities. If you don't cheat, school should give an accurate assessment of someone's qualities listed above.

I can't get why the management can't arrange a house-full test, I mean if I would be examiner I would arrange the seats so as no one would be able to waste the time in just copying stuff, students would rather feel free to leave the hall earlier if they don't know anything.
Remove the "I want", remainder is the "peace". ~Al-Ghazali~
"This time will also pass", a dose to cure both; the excitement & the grievance. ~Ayaz~
FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
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12/30/2013 4:28:15 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
I don't care about cheating because I don't care about testing. Students perform more effectively when they aren't being graded.

When cheating is high, it means that we value our tests more than children value learning.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
Dazz
Posts: 1,163
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1/2/2014 1:01:03 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/30/2013 4:28:15 AM, FREEDO wrote:
I don't care about cheating because I don't care about testing. Students perform more effectively when they aren't being graded.
Really.

When cheating is high, it means that we value our tests more than children value learning.

Not really. Cheating is high when we provide the leverage/ environment to do cheating. Otherwise remove the cheating, and then the testing would rather become a solid tool to give value to learning of students. True testing (without cheating) is an appraisal for students.
Remove the "I want", remainder is the "peace". ~Al-Ghazali~
"This time will also pass", a dose to cure both; the excitement & the grievance. ~Ayaz~
kiryasjoelvillage
Posts: 190
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1/2/2014 11:49:44 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
In an Abode of education, if a student is forced to cheat, that means he doesn't find learning fun. That implies the education system needs reforms.
kawaii_crazy
Posts: 580
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1/3/2014 12:04:38 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
im against it
"Being called weird is like being called Limited Edition. Meaning you're something people don't see that often." -Ashley Purdy

Please help raise money for a Christmas gift for airmax (although he is Jewish, as YYW pointed out). He is in desperate need of a new laptop, and he has done so much for this site; he certainly deserves one. :)
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ben2974
Posts: 767
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1/3/2014 10:11:26 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/29/2013 10:02:26 AM, nummi wrote:
At 12/29/2013 9:49:18 AM, ben2974 wrote:
Does NOT cheating in school prepare you better for the real world than if one were to cheat?

Cheating as in: copying homework assignments, letting your group do all the work, peeking on someone else's test, learning the answers to a test beforehand, using forbidden items on tests (calculator on a math test)


I think cheating in school does not prepare you for the real world. The point of school is to test/form key characteristics essential to the work and social environments. School, done with honesty, tests individuals diligence. It tests determination. It tests endurance. School should tell the world how self-capable you are.

If you cheat, you don't develop most of these important qualities. If you don't cheat, school should give an accurate assessment of someone's qualities listed above.
Find something you like and something you want to do, something you can enjoy. If that something requires learning then you will learn whatever is needed, without cheating.
Schools force onto you subjects that you do not care about at all nor will ever need, that's where the cheating comes in. You just want it done with, over with.
The result on paper is what people look at, not that which you actually have in your brain - just look at most authority and power figures - they're morons.

Going through subjects that don't interest you is part of what makes education so important. Life is complex and often rough. At least, it's never a straight path with a smile all the way through. Training kids----> young adults discipline and diligence and all the above are essential to healthy and stable lives, and of course are great traits to be had in the workforce. Being reliable (someone you can lean on, also meaning you are responsible), being active, being tenacious, etc., are all great qualities. Coping with and passing courses that act as a thorn to one's side is a first experience acting as a first step to molding one's character.

If you cheat and try to bypass this chapter of your life, you're only gonna make it harder for yourself to adapt to the real world.
ben2974
Posts: 767
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1/3/2014 10:46:52 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/30/2013 4:28:15 AM, FREEDO wrote:
I don't care about cheating because I don't care about testing. Students perform more effectively when they aren't being graded.

When cheating is high, it means that we value our tests more than children value learning.

I remember hearing an american history professor of mine tell us that the reason education decided to implement a grading system in the first place was to get better results out of students. lol
nummi
Posts: 294
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1/4/2014 1:40:11 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Going through subjects that don't interest you is part of what makes education so important.
I've got personal experience that it is not so. All the subjects I was not interesting in nor cared for I remember nothing about. It was all a total waste of time, I saw it then I know it now.
Life is complex and often rough.
Depends how you view life. I know for a fact that wasting time on subjects you have no interest in nor ever will is a waste of life. Unless of course you want to waste your life on useless subjects, gaining nothing. I, personally, would use that time instead on something beneficial, something that would give me anything useful.
At least, it's never a straight path with a smile all the way through.
It should be, mostly at least, but right now it's sad most of the way through. As a result unhappiness that results in apathy - you won't care even for that which otherwise you would care for. Personal experience here as well, those useless subjects bogged me down so much I didn't even care for those that did interest me.
Find what you like and ditch the rest, this is the best option.
Training kids----> young adults discipline and diligence and all the above are essential to healthy and stable lives, and of course are great traits to be had in the workforce.
Wrong. If the person likes what he/she does and wants to do it and cares for it, then there will be no need for "discipline" nor diligence. Personal experience here as well, not mention pure simplistic logic. The talk about discipline and good traits for work and such is pure propaganda. How about instead you like what you do, care for it, and want to do it?
Discipline is a negative value, if you "need" discipline that means you do not care about your job, what you do, you are not interested in it, nor do you want to do it. So why would you force yourself if you don't care one bit for it, and as a result quality of your work suffers?
Being reliable (someone you can lean on, also meaning you are responsible), being active, being tenacious, etc., are all great qualities.
Not always. Depends on vocation.
Coping with and passing courses that act as a thorn to one's side is a first experience acting as a first step to molding one's character.
It applies only to the extent till you find out what you want to do with your life, from that point onward you ditch what you don't need, and add what you will need.
If you cheat and try to bypass this chapter of your life, you're only gonna make it harder for yourself to adapt to the real world.
If people cheat they haven't figured out their life, or they have and just want to get through the pointless subjects without wasting much time on them.
Adapting to the world has nothing to do with forcing yourself to do things you don't care for. To adapt you need to see how things are and find yourself something you like and want and can actually succeed at.
ben2974
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1/4/2014 1:57:09 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/4/2014 1:40:11 AM, nummi wrote:
Going through subjects that don't interest you is part of what makes education so important.
I've got personal experience that it is not so. All the subjects I was not interesting in nor cared for I remember nothing about. It was all a total waste of time, I saw it then I know it now.
Life is complex and often rough.
Depends how you view life. I know for a fact that wasting time on subjects you have no interest in nor ever will is a waste of life. Unless of course you want to waste your life on useless subjects, gaining nothing. I, personally, would use that time instead on something beneficial, something that would give me anything useful.
At least, it's never a straight path with a smile all the way through.
It should be, mostly at least, but right now it's sad most of the way through. As a result unhappiness that results in apathy - you won't care even for that which otherwise you would care for. Personal experience here as well, those useless subjects bogged me down so much I didn't even care for those that did interest me.
Find what you like and ditch the rest, this is the best option.
Training kids----> young adults discipline and diligence and all the above are essential to healthy and stable lives, and of course are great traits to be had in the workforce.
Wrong. If the person likes what he/she does and wants to do it and cares for it, then there will be no need for "discipline" nor diligence. Personal experience here as well, not mention pure simplistic logic. The talk about discipline and good traits for work and such is pure propaganda. How about instead you like what you do, care for it, and want to do it?
Discipline is a negative value, if you "need" discipline that means you do not care about your job, what you do, you are not interested in it, nor do you want to do it. So why would you force yourself if you don't care one bit for it, and as a result quality of your work suffers?
Being reliable (someone you can lean on, also meaning you are responsible), being active, being tenacious, etc., are all great qualities.
Not always. Depends on vocation.
Coping with and passing courses that act as a thorn to one's side is a first experience acting as a first step to molding one's character.
It applies only to the extent till you find out what you want to do with your life, from that point onward you ditch what you don't need, and add what you will need.
If you cheat and try to bypass this chapter of your life, you're only gonna make it harder for yourself to adapt to the real world.
If people cheat they haven't figured out their life, or they have and just want to get through the pointless subjects without wasting much time on them.
Adapting to the world has nothing to do with forcing yourself to do things you don't care for. To adapt you need to see how things are and find yourself something you like and want and can actually succeed at.

1. well firstly, even if you may not like material taught in a certain subject, it does not mean the material learned is useless. Most people would be lying to themselves if they said they didn't remember anything they learned from every subject since 1st grade. School (particularly grades 9-12) serves as a place to acquire general knowledge that will serve as basic tools/utilities in daily life (help in conversation, for example). Secondly, going to school is not just a process to create skilled workers who are proficient in a certain domain(s). In fact, most would argue that high school doesn't prepare you for this at all. Even college is now a place where students enjoy exploring different studies to find what interests them (in fact i'm in college right now and have since switched majors 3 times). You seem to focus highly on the idea that school is only there to shape your resume and ease the transition to a dream job. My whole point for this thread was to spearhead the concept of character building. I couldn't give two craps about what you thought was useful knowledge and what wasn't.
2. Again, school isn't only about finding useful material for yourself.
3. Having a utopian life is an ideal to strive for. Though reaching it can be as simple as reassessing how you view life (as you say), what you appreciate and how you assign value. Of course I find it hard to believe for even the most well off individual to never have bad/rough times in life.
4. Again, school isn't only about learning material that will be useful for your job that you will love.
5. Discipline, in the simplest term, is to resist an urge/desire. It's a trained attribute. Discipline is applied in all realms of life, not just with your job. You're crazy if you think discipline is a bad trait.
6. you can have your general life goals planned out, but most other things in life aren't planned to the last detail. Things that are out of your control happen all the time and affect you in one way or another. That's where the qualities mentioned above come in handy.
7. Adapting to the real world is like trying to adapt to nature's ever-changing climate/weather. The best way to survive is to prepare for all possible events, so that whatever happens, you'll have some sort of preparations ready. That's where school comes in. School is that first step to prepare you for the real world. No, it's not just about the job. It's also about everything else in life.
nummi
Posts: 294
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1/4/2014 3:38:42 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
1. well firstly, even if you may not like material taught in a certain subject, it does not mean the material learned is useless.
Never said it is (though in some cases it is). What I meant was that a person should find what he/she likes and not waste time on that which to that person would then be useless/pointless.
Most people would be lying to themselves if they said they didn't remember anything they learned from every subject since 1st grade.
Completely irrelevant. The point is, is there any practical need for that knowledge, any at all? I can affirm there is not. So why waste life learning something a person will never need? Might as well use that time on something actually beneficial.
School (particularly grades 9-12) serves as a place to acquire general knowledge that will serve as basic tools/utilities in daily life (help in conversation, for example).
And majority of that knowledge you get from there is completely useless in daily life. So why waste life learning it if you'll never need it? Or you learn it because you don't know what you want to do with your life? If so then go ahead; otherwise, just no.
Secondly, going to school is not just a process to create skilled workers who are proficient in a certain domain(s). In fact, most would argue that high school doesn't prepare you for this at all.
It doesn't prepare them for either. I've been through school, I've seen the "preparation", I've seen how life is. School does not prepare one for life, nor for work. School isn't even aimed at helping students find their path, it's just... I don't know what it is but it is everything but efficient and what it should be.
Even college is now a place where students enjoy exploring different studies to find what interests them (in fact i'm in college right now and have since switched majors 3 times).
By the time you reach college you should already have a general direction for your life. Well, it barely is so presently. I went to university, was there two months, then left - found what I want to do, like to do, can succeed at, excel at, but does first require lots of learning.
You seem to focus highly on the idea that school is only there to shape your resume and ease the transition to a dream job.
Your words, not mine. But absolutely yes.
The "resume" is regarded as a "preparation for life" or a "dream job". This is where capitalism and its values would come in, and other such bad values.
My whole point for this thread was to spearhead the concept of character building. I couldn't give two craps about what you thought was useful knowledge and what wasn't.
It falls in the topic. School doesn't do what as an idea it should do. The entire schooling system, globally, is outdated. Too old and too inefficient.
2. Again, school isn't only about finding useful material for yourself.
Why not? If it's not useful for you then why waste your time on it?
4. Again, school isn't only about learning material that will be useful for your job that you will love.
Never said it was only about the job.
5. Discipline, in the simplest term, is to resist an urge/desire. It's a trained attribute. Discipline is applied in all realms of life, not just with your job. You're crazy if you think discipline is a bad trait.
Not only about urges and desires, as well about resisting a want not to do something. For example, if one is totally not interested in something, nor needs it, but forces oneself to do it for whatever reason. Why do something one doesn't want to do at all, neither actually needs to do it? If it were a true need, a necessity, then there'd be no need for discipline.
It may be as trained as you want but it never will and never can trump action/work from interest, want, liking, necessity. Never. So why go for it if there's a significantly better alternative? All you have to do to find the alternative is by finding your calling.
6. you can have your general life goals planned out, but most other things in life aren't planned to the last detail.
And why would they?
Things that are out of your control happen all the time and affect you in one way or another. That's where the qualities mentioned above come in handy.
No, they don't, not that which you refer to - that which is obtained from school but completely lacks practical value. In what way is it practical to learn how to deal with something that has 0.000001% chance of occurring?
You say things in life aren't planned to the last detail, but now you say it would be good to know how to deal with every situation? That's as good as having things planned to the last detail. As well, to know how to deal with every situation the school can not help with, there's simply far too many situations. It's irrational to think as you do.
You can't plan life out to the last detail; you can't learn how to deal with every situation.
7. Adapting to the real world is like trying to adapt to nature's ever-changing climate/weather.
Not really. You just go with the flow. Or you learn to see the flow. The latter is better.
The best way to survive is to prepare for all possible events, so that whatever happens, you'll have some sort of preparations ready.
Literally impossible. You'd spend lifetimes preparing for all possibilities and still not cover them all. When talking about all possibilities It's not just about the knowledge, it's as well about the physical condition.
The best way to survive is to see the "flow", what it is like, how it changes, etc. That way you won't need to learn every situation, you just look and see what's needed and obtain the knowledge on necessity. Learning about everything is a total waste of life. Unless of course you happen to be immortal?
That's where school comes in. School is that first step to prepare you for the real world. No, it's not just about the job. It's also about everything else in life.
School does not prepare for the real world. I know, I've seen it in its whole. So much relevant, in fact the most important parts, were included in school. I had to learn them on my own when school was over, good thing I'm perceptive, went rather fast compared to so many others who never will.
School should prepare for life, but doesn't do it well nor at all really. The system is far too primitive, too old, it doesn't fit with current needs.
FREEDO
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1/4/2014 9:53:05 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/3/2014 10:46:52 PM, ben2974 wrote:
At 12/30/2013 4:28:15 AM, FREEDO wrote:
I don't care about cheating because I don't care about testing. Students perform more effectively when they aren't being graded.

When cheating is high, it means that we value our tests more than children value learning.

I remember hearing an american history professor of mine tell us that the reason education decided to implement a grading system in the first place was to get better results out of students. lol

The educational system, as we know it today, was first implemented by Nazi Germany.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
dtaylor971
Posts: 1,907
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1/4/2014 10:33:46 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/4/2014 9:53:05 PM, FREEDO wrote:
At 1/3/2014 10:46:52 PM, ben2974 wrote:
At 12/30/2013 4:28:15 AM, FREEDO wrote:
I don't care about cheating because I don't care about testing. Students perform more effectively when they aren't being graded.

When cheating is high, it means that we value our tests more than children value learning.

I remember hearing an american history professor of mine tell us that the reason education decided to implement a grading system in the first place was to get better results out of students. lol

The educational system, as we know it today, was first implemented by Nazi Germany.

Oh WTF?!
"I don't know why gays want to marry, I have spent the last 25 years wishing I wasn't allowed to." -Sadolite
FREEDO
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1/4/2014 10:38:25 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
In my world, students themselves own the schools and decide how education can work best for them.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
KingDebater
Posts: 687
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1/5/2014 3:43:59 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/29/2013 9:49:18 AM, ben2974 wrote:
Does NOT cheating in school prepare you better for the real world than if one were to cheat?
Yes, because there aren't as many opportunities to cheat in the real world.

Cheating as in: copying homework assignments, letting your group do all the work, peeking on someone else's test, learning the answers to a test beforehand, using forbidden items on tests (calculator on a math test)
Yes, I knew what you meant.


I think cheating in school does not prepare you for the real world. The point of school is to test/form key characteristics essential to the work and social environments. School, done with honesty, tests individuals diligence. It tests determination. It tests endurance. School should tell the world how self-capable you are.
We agree!

If you cheat, you don't develop most of these important qualities. If you don't cheat, school should give an accurate assessment of someone's qualities listed above.
Good point, pal!
nummi
Posts: 294
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1/5/2014 4:10:37 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/4/2014 3:38:42 PM, nummi wrote:
School does not prepare for the real world. I know, I've seen it in its whole. So much relevant, in fact the most important parts, were not included in school. I had to learn them on my own when school was over, good thing I'm perceptive, went rather fast compared to so many others who never will.
Just a correction as there doesn't seem to be an edit button...
ben2974
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1/5/2014 1:09:07 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
1. The idea of learning material that you don't want to learn is understandable. I wouldn't want to learn what I will not be using in the future. Again, this isn't what i'm arguing; however, I can say that it might be a good idea to expose students in grade school to all kinds of subjects in order for them to at least know their options, to know what they can pursue, and to know what they want to pursue. And lastly, I still insist that students gain general knowledge from taking fundamental courses in various subjects even if they aren't subjects that interest them.

2. Yes, as mentioned above, there are practical uses for general knowledge from the numerous subjects taught in grade school. And the practicality doesn't have to come from the raw information learned in class, but from the application of that information - critical thinking/analysis skills, comprehension skills, computation skills, etc. These are all, of course, independent from character building (my main point).

3. When you say that school does nothing for the student, it only makes it harder for me to accept your positioning with all of this. I'd be hard-pressed to find people with the same view as you. If you have an alternative suggestion to education, let me know. Education could use some particular reforms, I agree. But to deny that our current education doesn't form children's/student's social and academic path is pretty arrogant. Where would youths learn and grow if not in school, where they are confronted with unexpected social pressures/desires/changes and academic challenges as well as nuisances, among other things?

4. Unfortunately, as i'm sure you've heard, college is becoming the new high school. Except this time, with more choice.

5. me: "You seem to focus highly on the idea that school is only there to shape your resume and ease the transition to a dream job.
you: "Your words, not mine. But absolutely yes"
you: "Never said it was only about the job."

6. I don't see your point with the whole discipline thing.

7. Also, I don't understand what you mean with the .00001% chance thing. Things are ALWAYS out of your control. You might not understand what I mean when I say that there are things out of your control. Everyday things like who you get calls from, who your coworkers/boss are, what the weather is gonna be like, if someone crashes into your car, if the girl/guy you like is in a relationship, when a store closes, whether or not the article of clothing you are wishing for is in stock, the value of stocks... The list can go on for a long time and many more of these things affect how your day goes and may determine your mood and your actions. All i'm saying is that school, in the way I've been describing it, can HELP PREPARE you for crap that pops up. School is like a conditioning stage. You don't have to know how to react to every situation. That's not what I meant to say at all. And this is why I say that school, done honestly, will be more useful for the future/real world.
Noumena
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1/7/2014 10:32:07 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
I don't think I could care about anything less (in education) than cheating.
: At 5/13/2014 7:05:20 PM, Crescendo wrote:
: The difference is that the gay movement is currently pushing their will on Churches, as shown in the link to gay marriage in Denmark. Meanwhile, the Inquisition ended several centuries ago.
whatledge
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1/8/2014 10:57:23 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/4/2014 10:38:25 PM, FREEDO wrote:
In my world, students themselves own the schools and decide how education can work best for them.

That's too much power to the students. You will have kids that will want nothing but recess and PE.

The best way, in my view, is to focus education based around philosophy and critical thought, so that children are able to understand why education is important and develop a desire to learn, while also developing broader interests. Science and math can be extremely exciting, as math is pretty much a game/puzzle to be solved if only we would allow children to look at it that way. The problem is that we force children to memorize overloaded data, instead of having them actually learn concepts and ideas.
nummi
Posts: 294
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1/8/2014 12:43:50 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
1. The idea of learning material that you don't want to learn is understandable. I wouldn't want to learn what I will not be using in the future. Again, this isn't what i'm arguing; however, I can say that it might be a good idea to expose students in grade school to all kinds of subjects in order for them to at least know their options, to know what they can pursue, and to know what they want to pursue. And lastly, I still insist that students gain general knowledge from taking fundamental courses in various subjects even if they aren't subjects that interest them.
You're not getting at all what I'm saying.
2. Yes, as mentioned above, there are practical uses for general knowledge from the numerous subjects taught in grade school. And the practicality doesn't have to come from the raw information learned in class, but from the application of that information - critical thinking/analysis skills, comprehension skills, computation skills, etc. These are all, of course, independent from character building (my main point).
My point, there is so much useless/pointless.
3. When you say that school does nothing for the student, it only makes it harder for me to accept your positioning with all of this.
I never said it does nothing.
I'd be hard-pressed to find people with the same view as you.
As would I. On the other hand, finding those that have your view or very similar is very easy.
If you have an alternative suggestion to education, let me know.
And instead of using your own mind for seeing faults and mistakes you ask me to detail it all out. One of my points is to be able to see what would be more efficient.
My suggestion to education would be much longer than the limit of 8000 characters per post. Too inconvenient to be up to it. Not to mention my point here is not to provide an alternative but show flaws of the present one, and briefly suggest how it could be better, leaving most to your own summation and conclusion.
Education could use some particular reforms, I agree. But to deny that our current education doesn't form children's/student's social and academic path is pretty arrogant.
Never said it doesn't form it. It's how it forms it and what the result is, that's the problem.
Where would youths learn and grow if not in school, where they are confronted with unexpected social pressures/desires/changes and academic challenges as well as nuisances, among other things?
You're misinterpreting what I've said...
4. Unfortunately, as i'm sure you've heard, college is becoming the new high school. Except this time, with more choice.
Good if there's more choice. But that still leaves so many issues.
5. me: "You seem to focus highly on the idea that school is only there to shape your resume and ease the transition to a dream job.
you: "Your words, not mine. But absolutely yes"
you: "Never said it was only about the job."
You sure are good at misinterpretation.
6. I don't see your point with the whole discipline thing.
Seems you don't know what discipline really is then, and why it is held so important. It's not just unimportant, it's toward downright idiotic really. There are so much better alternatives to get things done.
Discipline is a very bad thing, put shortly. If you think you need discipline then you don't know what you're doing, you don't even know yourself.
7. Also, I don't understand what you mean with the .00001% chance thing.
Really?
Things are ALWAYS out of your control.
Not always.
You might not understand what I mean when I say that there are things out of your control.
Wait... are things always out of our control or just sometimes? Best you decide this first.
Everyday things like who you get calls from, who your coworkers/boss are, what the weather is gonna be like, if someone crashes into your car, if the girl/guy you like is in a relationship, when a store closes, whether or not the article of clothing you are wishing for is in stock, the value of stocks... The list can go on for a long time and many more of these things affect how your day goes and may determine your mood and your actions.
So? Irrelevant. That's how life is, you don't control everything, you can't. Neither can you prepare for them all specifically, it would be idiotic to even try.
All i'm saying is that school, in the way I've been describing it, can HELP PREPARE you for crap that pops up.
Not the way you have been describing the "preparation".
School is like a conditioning stage.
Not a very effective one as once you're out in the real world, you notice the "preparation" was mostly a total waste of time.
I was in school, am no longer. The result? Mostly a waste of years, leaving me to learn about the absolute essential things that weren't even included in school on my own anyway.
You don't have to know how to react to every situation. That's not what I meant to say at all.
Well, you have been implying the opposite.
And this is why I say that school, done honestly, will be more useful for the future/real world.
It doesn't matter if you cheat or not, as the present school system is built wrong, flawed, on wrong values, etc., as it currently is. By cheating your way through this system you waste less of your time learning things you'll never need anyway, and as such have the potential to use more time on that which you actually will need. But... that time is usually spent doing nothing beneficial either way. And so, it doesn't matter, currently, if you cheat or not, you can end up fvcked or not just the same. The entire system is so stupid, the idea is good and well, but the execution is so idiotic. And the grading system in the school system... stupid, just stupid.

School must make a person aware of oneself, of one's own mind, of others', of what is real, what not, of general way of things, how they can change, when they change, of right and wrong and what they are and why. A person's mind must be shaped to be able to deal with something when that something comes, not specifically prepare for that specific thing.
Then colleges and universities should come when a person has all that and, as well, has figured out what to do with one's life. Once deciding purposes or goals for one's life are behind (for that time being), and then specifically learn what is needed for those goal to come true.
Right now it is not so. People are not prepared right, most aren't aware of themselves nor others, they don't know who they themselves are, what they want, what fits them, etc. Most people who finish school are mentally as good as completely impotent. Through old and dated methods and ways of teaching and raising, people's lives are wasted in such great numbers. And they can't even see it - they aren't even prepared for something as essential and important as this.
InvictusManeo
Posts: 384
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1/8/2014 2:20:32 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/8/2014 10:57:23 AM, whatledge wrote:
At 1/4/2014 10:38:25 PM, FREEDO wrote:
In my world, students themselves own the schools and decide how education can work best for them.

That's too much power to the students. You will have kids that will want nothing but recess and PE.

I disagree. What is wrong with giving power to students? Aren't they after all the ones receiving the education? It's like saying letting all people over a certain age vote is giving them too much power. Chances are if you lax the system and allow kids and teenagers to choose what they want to learn, you'll have a good portion of them wasting time on novel pursuits but a lax system wouldn't encourage this behavior because it already happens anyway.

When you give people power they tend to do things with it. I agree that it's a good idea to introduce ideas and concepts to people to spark their interest, and it's better to still expose kids to a wide array of subjects before allowing them to settle on what they choose, but the freedom of choice should always be there.

I also agree that philosophy is important - however how important is philosophy for a tradesman? A car mechanic? A plumber? It all depends on how you view education. Some see it as a conduit to the working market and others see it as a life-enriching experience with job prospects just arriving as a subset of that experience rather than being the main focus. It can be both, but it doesn't have to be both before you call it an education. Do you get what I mean by that?

The best way, in my view, is to focus education based around philosophy and critical thought, so that children are able to understand why education is important and develop a desire to learn, while also developing broader interests. Science and math can be extremely exciting, as math is pretty much a game/puzzle to be solved if only we would allow children to look at it that way. The problem is that we force children to memorize overloaded data, instead of having them actually learn concepts and ideas.
InvictusManeo
Posts: 384
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1/8/2014 2:21:37 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/30/2013 4:28:15 AM, FREEDO wrote:
I don't care about cheating because I don't care about testing. Students perform more effectively when they aren't being graded.

When cheating is high, it means that we value our tests more than children value learning.

Smart man, this one is.
AnDoctuir
Posts: 11,060
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1/8/2014 2:50:18 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
While I'm very much opposed to the institution which is conventional schooling, FREEDO talks a whole load of nonsense most of the time, barely thinking at all about what he's talking about. What? No tests and everyone is a qualified doctor? Good plan. There needs to be some check on negligence; this is not f*cking Neverland.

Chomsky's anarcho-syndicalism is ideal.
InvictusManeo
Posts: 384
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1/8/2014 3:09:19 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/8/2014 2:50:18 PM, AnDoctuir wrote:
While I'm very much opposed to the institution which is conventional schooling, FREEDO talks a whole load of nonsense most of the time, barely thinking at all about what he's talking about. What? No tests and everyone is a qualified doctor? Good plan. There needs to be some check on negligence; this is not f*cking Neverland.

Chomsky's anarcho-syndicalism is ideal.

Hm, I think when Freedo spoke about not testing he was more talking about tests being separate from the school experience. Like, being able to sit exams when you decide to sit them at a separate institution for whatever qualification you want to sit for.

Pretty much in every discussion I have about education the reform talk speaks more of secondary education and not further education as in college or university, since they tend to be geared for specialization anyway and testing is part and parcel with that.
InvictusManeo
Posts: 384
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1/8/2014 3:12:42 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/8/2014 3:09:19 PM, InvictusManeo wrote:
Pretty much in every discussion I have about education the reform talk speaks more of secondary education and not further education as in college or university, since they tend to be geared for specialization anyway and testing is part and parcel with that.

Even saying that, the American college system is an absolute joke in comparison to Europe and the UK. They spend the first 2 years continuing highschool pretty much and only specialise after that. Just another way to baby the coming of age.