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johnlubba
Posts: 2,892
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12/30/2013 12:45:36 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/30/2013 12:31:57 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
If you were convinced by the PoE tomorrow, would you either:

(i) Convert to Atheism

or

(ii) Re-define God

The problem is, you think there is evil in the world and no God to blame for it, simply because you do not believe God exists for you to blame.

On the other hand you blame God for all the evil in the world when in actual fact you don't even think he exists.

So which is it?

Does God exist and is he to blame.

Or does God not exist and there is no God to blame for the evil and suffering in the world?
zmikecuber
Posts: 4,092
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12/30/2013 12:46:39 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/30/2013 12:31:57 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
If you were convinced by the PoE tomorrow, would you either:

(i) Convert to Atheism

or

(ii) Re-define God

Probably i... Though that's indeed a tough question.
"Delete your fvcking sig" -1hard

"primal man had the habit, when he came into contact with fire, of satisfying the infantile desire connected with it, by putting it out with a stream of his urine... Putting out the fire by micturating was therefore a kind of sexual act with a male, an enjoyment of sexual potency in a homosexual competition."
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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12/30/2013 12:51:45 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/30/2013 12:45:36 PM, johnlubba wrote:
At 12/30/2013 12:31:57 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
If you were convinced by the PoE tomorrow, would you either:

(i) Convert to Atheism

or

(ii) Re-define God


The problem is, you think there is evil in the world and no God to blame for it, simply because you do not believe God exists for you to blame.

Correct.


On the other hand you blame God for all the evil in the world when in actual fact you don't even think he exists.

Incorrect.



So which is it?


Does God exist and is he to blame.

Or does God not exist and there is no God to blame for the evil and suffering in the world?

The latter.
johnlubba
Posts: 2,892
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12/30/2013 12:54:36 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/30/2013 12:51:45 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 12/30/2013 12:45:36 PM, johnlubba wrote:
At 12/30/2013 12:31:57 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
If you were convinced by the PoE tomorrow, would you either:

(i) Convert to Atheism

or

(ii) Re-define God


The problem is, you think there is evil in the world and no God to blame for it, simply because you do not believe God exists for you to blame.

Correct.

You are wrong,


On the other hand you blame God for all the evil in the world when in actual fact you don't even think he exists.

Incorrect.

You are wrong again



So which is it?


Does God exist and is he to blame.

Or does God not exist and there is no God to blame for the evil and suffering in the world?

The latter.

And again.
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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12/30/2013 12:55:43 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/30/2013 12:54:36 PM, johnlubba wrote:
At 12/30/2013 12:51:45 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 12/30/2013 12:45:36 PM, johnlubba wrote:
At 12/30/2013 12:31:57 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
If you were convinced by the PoE tomorrow, would you either:

(i) Convert to Atheism

or

(ii) Re-define God


The problem is, you think there is evil in the world and no God to blame for it, simply because you do not believe God exists for you to blame.

Correct.

You are wrong,


On the other hand you blame God for all the evil in the world when in actual fact you don't even think he exists.

Incorrect.

You are wrong again



So which is it?


Does God exist and is he to blame.

Or does God not exist and there is no God to blame for the evil and suffering in the world?

The latter.

And again.

Whatever helps you sleep at night ;)
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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12/30/2013 12:57:18 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/30/2013 12:46:39 PM, zmikecuber wrote:
At 12/30/2013 12:31:57 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
If you were convinced by the PoE tomorrow, would you either:

(i) Convert to Atheism

or

(ii) Re-define God

Probably i... Though that's indeed a tough question.

If you chose (i), it leads to a very bizarre and counter-intuitive conclusion. It leads to the conclusion that if some morally indifferent necessarily exiting, conscious and intelligent being, who is omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient created the universe; Atheism is confirmed, and Theism is false.
johnlubba
Posts: 2,892
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12/30/2013 1:00:26 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/30/2013 12:55:43 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 12/30/2013 12:54:36 PM, johnlubba wrote:
At 12/30/2013 12:51:45 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 12/30/2013 12:45:36 PM, johnlubba wrote:
At 12/30/2013 12:31:57 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
If you were convinced by the PoE tomorrow, would you either:

(i) Convert to Atheism

or

(ii) Re-define God


The problem is, you think there is evil in the world and no God to blame for it, simply because you do not believe God exists for you to blame.

Correct.

You are wrong,


On the other hand you blame God for all the evil in the world when in actual fact you don't even think he exists.

Incorrect.

You are wrong again



So which is it?


Does God exist and is he to blame.

Or does God not exist and there is no God to blame for the evil and suffering in the world?

The latter.

And again.

Whatever helps you sleep at night ;)

It obviously helps you.

I saw a post from you the other day where you claimed that the problem of evil in the world is what helps convince you that God doesn't exist.

Why do you think this? Why do you think that suffering makes God impossible to exist.?
johnlubba
Posts: 2,892
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12/30/2013 1:05:50 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/30/2013 12:31:57 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
If you were convinced by the PoE tomorrow, would you either:

(i) Convert to Atheism

or

(ii) Re-define God

Would it help if God created a world where he catered for everybody's needs like a servant? wrapped us all up in cotton wool and never allowed us to face any dangers.

Is that that the type of God you would admire.

The only problem with this, is that you would never serve a God like this, He would be serving you.
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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12/30/2013 1:08:07 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/30/2013 1:00:26 PM, johnlubba wrote:
At 12/30/2013 12:55:43 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 12/30/2013 12:54:36 PM, johnlubba wrote:
At 12/30/2013 12:51:45 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 12/30/2013 12:45:36 PM, johnlubba wrote:
At 12/30/2013 12:31:57 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
If you were convinced by the PoE tomorrow, would you either:

(i) Convert to Atheism

or

(ii) Re-define God


The problem is, you think there is evil in the world and no God to blame for it, simply because you do not believe God exists for you to blame.

Correct.

You are wrong,


On the other hand you blame God for all the evil in the world when in actual fact you don't even think he exists.

Incorrect.

You are wrong again



So which is it?


Does God exist and is he to blame.

Or does God not exist and there is no God to blame for the evil and suffering in the world?

The latter.

And again.

Whatever helps you sleep at night ;)

It obviously helps you.

I am rubber, you are glue? Nice...


I saw a post from you the other day where you claimed that the problem of evil in the world is what helps convince you that God doesn't exist.


Why do you think this? Why do you think that suffering makes God impossible to exist.?

The God of perfect being theology, that doesn't mean some deistic God couldn't exist, or some other type of diety.
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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12/30/2013 1:09:37 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/30/2013 1:05:50 PM, johnlubba wrote:
At 12/30/2013 12:31:57 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
If you were convinced by the PoE tomorrow, would you either:

(i) Convert to Atheism

or

(ii) Re-define God

Would it help if God created a world where he catered for everybody's needs like a servant? wrapped us all up in cotton wool and never allowed us to face any dangers.

Is that that the type of God you would admire.

I would admire a God who wasn't a necessary condition for evil.


The only problem with this, is that you would never serve a God like this, He would be serving you.

The PoE has nothing to do with God having to serve me.
johnlubba
Posts: 2,892
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12/30/2013 1:12:43 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/30/2013 1:08:07 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 12/30/2013 1:00:26 PM, johnlubba wrote:
At 12/30/2013 12:55:43 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 12/30/2013 12:54:36 PM, johnlubba wrote:
At 12/30/2013 12:51:45 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 12/30/2013 12:45:36 PM, johnlubba wrote:
At 12/30/2013 12:31:57 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
If you were convinced by the PoE tomorrow, would you either:

(i) Convert to Atheism

or

(ii) Re-define God


The problem is, you think there is evil in the world and no God to blame for it, simply because you do not believe God exists for you to blame.

Correct.

You are wrong,


On the other hand you blame God for all the evil in the world when in actual fact you don't even think he exists.

Incorrect.

You are wrong again



So which is it?


Does God exist and is he to blame.

Or does God not exist and there is no God to blame for the evil and suffering in the world?

The latter.

And again.

Whatever helps you sleep at night ;)

It obviously helps you.

I am rubber, you are glue? Nice...


I saw a post from you the other day where you claimed that the problem of evil in the world is what helps convince you that God doesn't exist.


Why do you think this? Why do you think that suffering makes God impossible to exist.?

The God of perfect being theology, that doesn't mean some deistic God couldn't exist, or some other type of diety.

It doesn't mean a perfect God couldn't exist either, Just because he made and we can suffer. Has it ever occurred that some people suffer for a just reason you are completely unaware of? If people mis-use their choice of freedom and cause others to suffer badly. such as hitler for example. has it ever occurred to you that nature's direction assures that hitler will come back in another form to suffer his sins?
johnlubba
Posts: 2,892
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12/30/2013 1:15:00 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/30/2013 1:09:37 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 12/30/2013 1:05:50 PM, johnlubba wrote:
At 12/30/2013 12:31:57 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
If you were convinced by the PoE tomorrow, would you either:

(i) Convert to Atheism

or

(ii) Re-define God

Would it help if God created a world where he catered for everybody's needs like a servant? wrapped us all up in cotton wool and never allowed us to face any dangers.

Is that that the type of God you would admire.

I would admire a God who wasn't a necessary condition for evil.


The only problem with this, is that you would never serve a God like this, He would be serving you.

The PoE has nothing to do with God having to serve me.

Yes it does, you want God to protect you from any suffering.
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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12/30/2013 1:16:32 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/30/2013 1:12:43 PM, johnlubba wrote:
At 12/30/2013 1:08:07 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 12/30/2013 1:00:26 PM, johnlubba wrote:
At 12/30/2013 12:55:43 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 12/30/2013 12:54:36 PM, johnlubba wrote:
At 12/30/2013 12:51:45 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 12/30/2013 12:45:36 PM, johnlubba wrote:
At 12/30/2013 12:31:57 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
If you were convinced by the PoE tomorrow, would you either:

(i) Convert to Atheism

or

(ii) Re-define God


The problem is, you think there is evil in the world and no God to blame for it, simply because you do not believe God exists for you to blame.

Correct.

You are wrong,


On the other hand you blame God for all the evil in the world when in actual fact you don't even think he exists.

Incorrect.

You are wrong again



So which is it?


Does God exist and is he to blame.

Or does God not exist and there is no God to blame for the evil and suffering in the world?

The latter.

And again.

Whatever helps you sleep at night ;)

It obviously helps you.

I am rubber, you are glue? Nice...


I saw a post from you the other day where you claimed that the problem of evil in the world is what helps convince you that God doesn't exist.


Why do you think this? Why do you think that suffering makes God impossible to exist.?

The God of perfect being theology, that doesn't mean some deistic God couldn't exist, or some other type of diety.

It doesn't mean a perfect God couldn't exist either, Just because he made and we can suffer.

That's not the PoE though.

Has it ever occurred that some people suffer for a just reason you are completely unaware of?

Yes. But this leads to moral paralysis. If you see someone getting raped, you have no reason to stop it, because God might be allowing for some just reason. The very fact that you would prevent suffering if you could, presupposes that it isn't necessarily for some greater good.

If people mis-use their choice of freedom and cause others to suffer badly. such as hitler for example. has it ever occurred to you that nature's direction assures that hitler will come back in another form to suffer his sins?

You don't need the ability to do evil to have free-will.
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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12/30/2013 1:17:21 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/30/2013 1:15:00 PM, johnlubba wrote:
At 12/30/2013 1:09:37 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 12/30/2013 1:05:50 PM, johnlubba wrote:
At 12/30/2013 12:31:57 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
If you were convinced by the PoE tomorrow, would you either:

(i) Convert to Atheism

or

(ii) Re-define God

Would it help if God created a world where he catered for everybody's needs like a servant? wrapped us all up in cotton wool and never allowed us to face any dangers.

Is that that the type of God you would admire.

I would admire a God who wasn't a necessary condition for evil.


The only problem with this, is that you would never serve a God like this, He would be serving you.

The PoE has nothing to do with God having to serve me.

Yes it does, you want God to protect you from any suffering.

How can I want a being who doesn't exist to protect me from something? That is a contradiction.
johnlubba
Posts: 2,892
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12/30/2013 1:19:27 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/30/2013 1:16:32 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 12/30/2013 1:12:43 PM, johnlubba wrote:
At 12/30/2013 1:08:07 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 12/30/2013 1:00:26 PM, johnlubba wrote:
At 12/30/2013 12:55:43 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 12/30/2013 12:54:36 PM, johnlubba wrote:
At 12/30/2013 12:51:45 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 12/30/2013 12:45:36 PM, johnlubba wrote:
At 12/30/2013 12:31:57 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
If you were convinced by the PoE tomorrow, would you either:

(i) Convert to Atheism

or

(ii) Re-define God


The problem is, you think there is evil in the world and no God to blame for it, simply because you do not believe God exists for you to blame.

Correct.

You are wrong,


On the other hand you blame God for all the evil in the world when in actual fact you don't even think he exists.

Incorrect.

You are wrong again



So which is it?


Does God exist and is he to blame.

Or does God not exist and there is no God to blame for the evil and suffering in the world?

The latter.

And again.

Whatever helps you sleep at night ;)

It obviously helps you.

I am rubber, you are glue? Nice...


I saw a post from you the other day where you claimed that the problem of evil in the world is what helps convince you that God doesn't exist.


Why do you think this? Why do you think that suffering makes God impossible to exist.?

The God of perfect being theology, that doesn't mean some deistic God couldn't exist, or some other type of diety.

It doesn't mean a perfect God couldn't exist either, Just because he made and we can suffer.

That's not the PoE though.

Has it ever occurred that some people suffer for a just reason you are completely unaware of?

Yes. But this leads to moral paralysis. If you see someone getting raped, you have no reason to stop it, because God might be allowing for some just reason. The very fact that you would prevent suffering if you could, presupposes that it isn't necessarily for some greater good.

I Never said suffering caused by man's will but by natures direction, which is God's will.

If people mis-use their choice of freedom and cause others to suffer badly. such as hitler for example. has it ever occurred to you that nature's direction assures that hitler will come back in another form to suffer his sins?

You don't need the ability to do evil to have free-will.

Yes you do, Otherwise it isn't free will.
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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12/30/2013 1:21:54 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/30/2013 1:19:27 PM, johnlubba wrote:
At 12/30/2013 1:16:32 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 12/30/2013 1:12:43 PM, johnlubba wrote:
At 12/30/2013 1:08:07 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 12/30/2013 1:00:26 PM, johnlubba wrote:
At 12/30/2013 12:55:43 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 12/30/2013 12:54:36 PM, johnlubba wrote:
At 12/30/2013 12:51:45 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 12/30/2013 12:45:36 PM, johnlubba wrote:
At 12/30/2013 12:31:57 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
If you were convinced by the PoE tomorrow, would you either:

(i) Convert to Atheism

or

(ii) Re-define God


The problem is, you think there is evil in the world and no God to blame for it, simply because you do not believe God exists for you to blame.

Correct.

You are wrong,


On the other hand you blame God for all the evil in the world when in actual fact you don't even think he exists.

Incorrect.

You are wrong again



So which is it?


Does God exist and is he to blame.

Or does God not exist and there is no God to blame for the evil and suffering in the world?

The latter.

And again.

Whatever helps you sleep at night ;)

It obviously helps you.

I am rubber, you are glue? Nice...


I saw a post from you the other day where you claimed that the problem of evil in the world is what helps convince you that God doesn't exist.


Why do you think this? Why do you think that suffering makes God impossible to exist.?

The God of perfect being theology, that doesn't mean some deistic God couldn't exist, or some other type of diety.

It doesn't mean a perfect God couldn't exist either, Just because he made and we can suffer.

That's not the PoE though.

Has it ever occurred that some people suffer for a just reason you are completely unaware of?

Yes. But this leads to moral paralysis. If you see someone getting raped, you have no reason to stop it, because God might be allowing for some just reason. The very fact that you would prevent suffering if you could, presupposes that it isn't necessarily for some greater good.

I Never said suffering caused by man's will but by natures direction, which is God's will.

If people mis-use their choice of freedom and cause others to suffer badly. such as hitler for example. has it ever occurred to you that nature's direction assures that hitler will come back in another form to suffer his sins?

You don't need the ability to do evil to have free-will.

Yes you do, Otherwise it isn't free will.

Well, if your formula is:

"If Person A cannot do X, then Person A does not have free-will"

Then none of us have free-will, because we cannot teleport to the moon by thinking about it. Just because there are things we cannot do, doesn't mean we don't have free-will. Similarly, if I couldn't do evil, I would still have free-will by definition if I could still chose between Coke or Pepsi.

According to your formula, none of us have free-will, because of all the things we cannot do. Unless you want to commit the special pleading fallacy.
johnlubba
Posts: 2,892
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12/30/2013 1:25:32 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/30/2013 1:18:27 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Would you like to debate me on the PoE johnlubba?

No RT, I don't do debates here any more simply because it's not worth putting in all the effort when nobody takes the time to read the debates and give a fully valid RFD,

Take the brilliant debate between Sargon and popculture for example. totally wasted effort from both debaters. UI am not keen on debating here any more.

I will however talk to you as a person and spend my spare time at work engaging with you. Which I do enjoy.

my time is almost up again so not sure how long I will be about for.
johnlubba
Posts: 2,892
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12/30/2013 1:30:37 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/30/2013 1:21:54 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 12/30/2013 1:19:27 PM, johnlubba wrote:
At 12/30/2013 1:16:32 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 12/30/2013 1:12:43 PM, johnlubba wrote:
At 12/30/2013 1:08:07 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 12/30/2013 1:00:26 PM, johnlubba wrote:
At 12/30/2013 12:55:43 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 12/30/2013 12:54:36 PM, johnlubba wrote:
At 12/30/2013 12:51:45 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 12/30/2013 12:45:36 PM, johnlubba wrote:
At 12/30/2013 12:31:57 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
If you were convinced by the PoE tomorrow, would you either:

(i) Convert to Atheism

or

(ii) Re-define God


The problem is, you think there is evil in the world and no God to blame for it, simply because you do not believe God exists for you to blame.

Correct.

You are wrong,


On the other hand you blame God for all the evil in the world when in actual fact you don't even think he exists.

Incorrect.

You are wrong again



So which is it?


Does God exist and is he to blame.

Or does God not exist and there is no God to blame for the evil and suffering in the world?

The latter.

And again.

Whatever helps you sleep at night ;)

It obviously helps you.

I am rubber, you are glue? Nice...


I saw a post from you the other day where you claimed that the problem of evil in the world is what helps convince you that God doesn't exist.


Why do you think this? Why do you think that suffering makes God impossible to exist.?

The God of perfect being theology, that doesn't mean some deistic God couldn't exist, or some other type of diety.

It doesn't mean a perfect God couldn't exist either, Just because he made and we can suffer.

That's not the PoE though.

Has it ever occurred that some people suffer for a just reason you are completely unaware of?

Yes. But this leads to moral paralysis. If you see someone getting raped, you have no reason to stop it, because God might be allowing for some just reason. The very fact that you would prevent suffering if you could, presupposes that it isn't necessarily for some greater good.

I Never said suffering caused by man's will but by natures direction, which is God's will.

If people mis-use their choice of freedom and cause others to suffer badly. such as hitler for example. has it ever occurred to you that nature's direction assures that hitler will come back in another form to suffer his sins?

You don't need the ability to do evil to have free-will.

Yes you do, Otherwise it isn't free will.

Well, if your formula is:

"If Person A cannot do X, then Person A does not have free-will"

Then none of us have free-will, because we cannot teleport to the moon by thinking about it. Just because there are things we cannot do, doesn't mean we don't have free-will. Similarly, if I couldn't do evil, I would still have free-will by definition if I could still chose between Coke or Pepsi.

According to your formula, none of us have free-will, because of all the things we cannot do. Unless you want to commit the special pleading fallacy.

Yes you are correct, we are conditioned beings under material nature and are not fully free, this must cause you to question, why am I not free, who is causing me to be restricted or why am I restricted.

We do however have free will to choose between good and evil.

Can we teleport to the moon and back, No. but maybe the technology exists somewhere out there and we just haven't discovered it yet, by using our free will.

I can imagine a similar question proposed a few hundred years ago, if we were truly free we could speak to people acorss the other side of the world, and whallah, a few hundred years later, hey presto.
johnlubba
Posts: 2,892
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12/30/2013 1:33:37 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
I am out of here RT.

My message to you again is seek God with your heart and don't close your heart to God and he will reveal himself to you.

Later
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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12/30/2013 1:35:35 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/30/2013 1:30:37 PM, johnlubba wrote:
At 12/30/2013 1:21:54 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 12/30/2013 1:19:27 PM, johnlubba wrote:
At 12/30/2013 1:16:32 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 12/30/2013 1:12:43 PM, johnlubba wrote:
At 12/30/2013 1:08:07 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 12/30/2013 1:00:26 PM, johnlubba wrote:
At 12/30/2013 12:55:43 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 12/30/2013 12:54:36 PM, johnlubba wrote:
At 12/30/2013 12:51:45 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 12/30/2013 12:45:36 PM, johnlubba wrote:
At 12/30/2013 12:31:57 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
If you were convinced by the PoE tomorrow, would you either:

(i) Convert to Atheism

or

(ii) Re-define God


The problem is, you think there is evil in the world and no God to blame for it, simply because you do not believe God exists for you to blame.

Correct.

You are wrong,


On the other hand you blame God for all the evil in the world when in actual fact you don't even think he exists.

Incorrect.

You are wrong again



So which is it?


Does God exist and is he to blame.

Or does God not exist and there is no God to blame for the evil and suffering in the world?

The latter.

And again.

Whatever helps you sleep at night ;)

It obviously helps you.

I am rubber, you are glue? Nice...


I saw a post from you the other day where you claimed that the problem of evil in the world is what helps convince you that God doesn't exist.


Why do you think this? Why do you think that suffering makes God impossible to exist.?

The God of perfect being theology, that doesn't mean some deistic God couldn't exist, or some other type of diety.

It doesn't mean a perfect God couldn't exist either, Just because he made and we can suffer.

That's not the PoE though.

Has it ever occurred that some people suffer for a just reason you are completely unaware of?

Yes. But this leads to moral paralysis. If you see someone getting raped, you have no reason to stop it, because God might be allowing for some just reason. The very fact that you would prevent suffering if you could, presupposes that it isn't necessarily for some greater good.

I Never said suffering caused by man's will but by natures direction, which is God's will.

If people mis-use their choice of freedom and cause others to suffer badly. such as hitler for example. has it ever occurred to you that nature's direction assures that hitler will come back in another form to suffer his sins?

You don't need the ability to do evil to have free-will.

Yes you do, Otherwise it isn't free will.

Well, if your formula is:

"If Person A cannot do X, then Person A does not have free-will"

Then none of us have free-will, because we cannot teleport to the moon by thinking about it. Just because there are things we cannot do, doesn't mean we don't have free-will. Similarly, if I couldn't do evil, I would still have free-will by definition if I could still chose between Coke or Pepsi.

According to your formula, none of us have free-will, because of all the things we cannot do. Unless you want to commit the special pleading fallacy.

Yes you are correct, we are conditioned beings under material nature and are not fully free, this must cause you to question, why am I not free, who is causing me to be restricted or why am I restricted.

If God exists, then he restricts me from teleporting to Mars just by thinking about it, but I still have free-will. Just like he could restrict someone form doing evil, but I could still have free-will. There is no relevant difference here.


We do however have free will to choose between good and evil.

Yes, but if we didn't, we could still have free-will. Right now, I cannot chose between growing and extra finger, or not. I am forced to not grow an extra finger no matter how hard I try. Yet, I still have free-will. Similarly, even if we couldn't chose between good or evil, we would still have free-will.


Can we teleport to the moon and back, No. but maybe the technology exists somewhere out there and we just haven't discovered it yet, by using our free will.

Maybe, but maybe not. The point is, there are things we clearly cannot do, but we still have free-will; evil could have just been one of the many things we cannot do. Thus, just because we couldn't do evil, that wouldn't mean we wouldn't have free-will.


I can imagine a similar question proposed a few hundred years ago, if we were truly free we could speak to people acorss the other side of the world, and whallah, a few hundred years later, hey presto.

It cannot happen just by thinking about it though, you need technology. I am not free, right now, to will myself to Mars. Does this mean I don't have free-will? Of course not. Similarly, if I couldn't do evil, I would still have free-will by definition as long as I could still freely choose between two different goods.
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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12/30/2013 5:07:56 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Deconvert. A morally perfect God (among other things) is the only one I'm interested in.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
philochristos
Posts: 2,614
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12/30/2013 5:11:49 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/30/2013 12:31:57 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
If you were convinced by the PoE tomorrow, would you either:

(i) Convert to Atheism

or

(ii) Re-define God

That's a good question. I would probably cease to be a Christian, but since I still learn in favor of cosmological arguments, and since cosmological arguments have nothing to do with good and evil, I would probably still be a theist. I just wouldn't believe in the Christian God.
"Not to know of what things one should demand demonstration, and of what one should not, argues want of education." ~Aristotle

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." ~Aristotle
Illegalcombatant
Posts: 4,008
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12/30/2013 5:21:45 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/30/2013 1:12:43 PM, johnlubba wrote:
At 12/30/2013 1:08:07 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 12/30/2013 1:00:26 PM, johnlubba wrote:
At 12/30/2013 12:55:43 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 12/30/2013 12:54:36 PM, johnlubba wrote:
At 12/30/2013 12:51:45 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 12/30/2013 12:45:36 PM, johnlubba wrote:
At 12/30/2013 12:31:57 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
If you were convinced by the PoE tomorrow, would you either:

(i) Convert to Atheism

or

(ii) Re-define God


The problem is, you think there is evil in the world and no God to blame for it, simply because you do not believe God exists for you to blame.

Correct.

You are wrong,


On the other hand you blame God for all the evil in the world when in actual fact you don't even think he exists.

Incorrect.

You are wrong again



So which is it?


Does God exist and is he to blame.

Or does God not exist and there is no God to blame for the evil and suffering in the world?

The latter.

And again.

Whatever helps you sleep at night ;)

It obviously helps you.

I am rubber, you are glue? Nice...


I saw a post from you the other day where you claimed that the problem of evil in the world is what helps convince you that God doesn't exist.


Why do you think this? Why do you think that suffering makes God impossible to exist.?

The God of perfect being theology, that doesn't mean some deistic God couldn't exist, or some other type of diety.

It doesn't mean a perfect God couldn't exist either, Just because he made and we can suffer. Has it ever occurred that some people suffer for a just reason you are completely unaware of? If people mis-use their choice of freedom and cause others to suffer badly. such as hitler for example. has it ever occurred to you that nature's direction assures that hitler will come back in another form to suffer his sins?

I am sure it has occurred to many people, because the God allows such and such are believers go to move when an objection is raised as to.......well if God exists how come........

Did it ever occur to you that if such a tri omi God did not exist, that in order to reconcile God with some state of world affairs that it would be necessary to rationalize this false belief with something along the lines of.................well God allowed that to happen to achieve some greater good/mysterious ways ?
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
Illegalcombatant
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12/30/2013 5:56:35 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/30/2013 1:16:32 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:


Yes. But this leads to moral paralysis. If you see someone getting raped, you have no reason to stop it, because God might be allowing for some just reason. The very fact that you would prevent suffering if you could, presupposes that it isn't necessarily for some greater good.

And that's why you get people who actually believe this, I mean really believe this and actually live by this belief, results in them denying pain medication or treatment for children.

If they are suffering............it's because God allows it.....................he knows better...................

It becomes just a test of faith at this point, will you be faithful to God and let his will be done ? or will you give in to satan and the world......the evil world who want you to take your child to a medical doctor ?

Oh and as added incentive, if you are not faithful to God.........you go to hell.
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
AnDoctuir
Posts: 11,060
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1/1/2014 2:23:50 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
The PoE is easily solved for a potentially omnibenevolent existence. The solution just puts responsibility on every individual. Hey, we're all playing god all the time anyway, right?
AnDoctuir
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1/1/2014 2:27:48 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/30/2013 1:33:37 PM, johnlubba wrote:
I am out of here RT.

My message to you again is seek God with your heart and don't close your heart to God and he will reveal himself to you.

Later

This is a bad message for psychological reasons - we have a wonderful capacity for self-delusion. A better message would be: "Seek God rationally, and love along the way."

Well, as regards being something good anyway.
KingDebater
Posts: 687
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1/2/2014 1:08:04 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/30/2013 12:45:36 PM, johnlubba wrote:
At 12/30/2013 12:31:57 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
If you were convinced by the PoE tomorrow, would you either:

(i) Convert to Atheism

or

(ii) Re-define God


The problem is, you think there is evil in the world and no God to blame for it, simply because you do not believe God exists for you to blame.

On the other hand you blame God for all the evil in the world when in actual fact you don't even think he exists.


So which is it?


Does God exist and is he to blame.

Or does God not exist and there is no God to blame for the evil and suffering in the world?
Evil exists, therefore God doesn't.