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Pleasure and Displeasure

bubbatheclown
Posts: 1,258
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1/7/2014 2:18:42 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Any pleasurable behavior that is repeated enough will become dull. Any displeasurable behavior that is repeated will become increasingly tolerable.

This is the explanation behind drugs. What drugs are essentially is raw pleasure. Even very mild pleasure can be enjoyable the very first time it's done, so small amounts of drugs are pleasurable the first time they are used. Then, when your mind dulls itself to this form and quantity of pleasure, you need a bigger boost to feel what you originally felt with a smaller boost of pleasure. And when that dulls, you have to get a "bigger boost" to feel that same pleasure as before. It just escalates, and nothing you do can stop it from escalating. The only solution is to go along with it and receive bigger and bigger boosts...or quit.

But it doesn't apply only to drugs, oh no. This principle applies to everything. Eating, sexual behavior, alcohol, etcetera. Some things may take a very long time to completely dull, while other things dull relatively quickly. This is why I think immortality is a very bad idea.

Any thoughts on this?
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,407
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1/7/2014 2:29:31 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/7/2014 2:18:42 PM, bubbatheclown wrote:
Any pleasurable behavior that is repeated enough will become dull. Any displeasurable behavior that is repeated will become increasingly tolerable.

This is the explanation behind drugs. What drugs are essentially is raw pleasure. Even very mild pleasure can be enjoyable the very first time it's done, so small amounts of drugs are pleasurable the first time they are used. Then, when your mind dulls itself to this form and quantity of pleasure, you need a bigger boost to feel what you originally felt with a smaller boost of pleasure. And when that dulls, you have to get a "bigger boost" to feel that same pleasure as before. It just escalates, and nothing you do can stop it from escalating. The only solution is to go along with it and receive bigger and bigger boosts...or quit.

But it doesn't apply only to drugs, oh no. This principle applies to everything. Eating, sexual behavior, alcohol, etcetera. Some things may take a very long time to completely dull, while other things dull relatively quickly. This is why I think immortality is a very bad idea.

Any thoughts on this?

Perhaps tolerance is a biological thing, and if there is a heaven, you would feel the same pleasure throughout.
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,407
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1/7/2014 2:30:11 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/7/2014 2:18:42 PM, bubbatheclown wrote:
Any pleasurable behavior that is repeated enough will become dull. Any displeasurable behavior that is repeated will become increasingly tolerable.

This is the explanation behind drugs. What drugs are essentially is raw pleasure. Even very mild pleasure can be enjoyable the very first time it's done, so small amounts of drugs are pleasurable the first time they are used. Then, when your mind dulls itself to this form and quantity of pleasure, you need a bigger boost to feel what you originally felt with a smaller boost of pleasure. And when that dulls, you have to get a "bigger boost" to feel that same pleasure as before. It just escalates, and nothing you do can stop it from escalating. The only solution is to go along with it and receive bigger and bigger boosts...or quit.

But it doesn't apply only to drugs, oh no. This principle applies to everything. Eating, sexual behavior, alcohol, etcetera. Some things may take a very long time to completely dull, while other things dull relatively quickly. This is why I think immortality is a very bad idea.

Any thoughts on this?

So, with regards to biological immortality; you may be correct.
Cody_Franklin
Posts: 9,512
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1/7/2014 2:33:08 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
This is a complicated subject, but a worthwhile question. The primary issue, to me, is weighting--if you imagine hedonic treadmilling (which, in the sciences, is the formal name for the phenomenon) as one among several different variables, all of which are united in a single equation (which representation is more a convenient model, I'd argue, than an epistemic goal), the question is not whether these variables exist (they evidently do: one is always susceptible to treadmilling, rising expectations, etc.), but how they are weighted relative to one another to produce a particular outcome. After all, one confounding variable is elapsed duration between stimulations--if one is with a romantic partner nearly every moment of every day, the time horizon for desensitization (so to speak) is naturally far shorter than if they saw each other less frequently (which, depending on several other variables, could extend the pleasant feelings of romance indefinitely).

So, it is true that we are desensitized to stimuli as their novelty declines, or as we become physiologically acclimated to them (as is the case for something like methamphetamine, though this also has to do with the gradual atrophy of dopamine and serotonin receptors), but what's critical is that, if we know about this and related effects, we can (and, often, have) discover ways of mitigating the problem (e.g., new techniques in the bedroom, not dosing LSD every weekend).
wrichcirw
Posts: 11,196
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1/7/2014 2:46:40 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/7/2014 2:18:42 PM, bubbatheclown wrote:
Any pleasurable behavior that is repeated enough will become dull. Any displeasurable behavior that is repeated will become increasingly tolerable.

This is the explanation behind drugs. What drugs are essentially is raw pleasure. Even very mild pleasure can be enjoyable the very first time it's done, so small amounts of drugs are pleasurable the first time they are used. Then, when your mind dulls itself to this form and quantity of pleasure, you need a bigger boost to feel what you originally felt with a smaller boost of pleasure. And when that dulls, you have to get a "bigger boost" to feel that same pleasure as before. It just escalates, and nothing you do can stop it from escalating. The only solution is to go along with it and receive bigger and bigger boosts...or quit.

But it doesn't apply only to drugs, oh no. This principle applies to everything. Eating, sexual behavior, alcohol, etcetera. Some things may take a very long time to completely dull, while other things dull relatively quickly. This is why I think immortality is a very bad idea.

Any thoughts on this?

I had a discussion with rross and sdavio about this on a different thread. Currently where we are at in the discussion is that it may be much more conducive to analysis to look at "pleasure" in the first or maybe 2nd derivative. Basically, what matters less is whether or not you have your desires fulfilled at some certain point...instead what matters much more is the RATE of fulfillment. So, if the rate stays constant, you are indifferent. If the rate increases, you feel pleasure. If the rate decreases, even if what you are doing has "positive utility", you will feel displeasure.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
STALIN
Posts: 3,726
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1/7/2014 6:41:33 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/7/2014 2:46:40 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 1/7/2014 2:18:42 PM, bubbatheclown wrote:
Any pleasurable behavior that is repeated enough will become dull. Any displeasurable behavior that is repeated will become increasingly tolerable.

This is the explanation behind drugs. What drugs are essentially is raw pleasure. Even very mild pleasure can be enjoyable the very first time it's done, so small amounts of drugs are pleasurable the first time they are used. Then, when your mind dulls itself to this form and quantity of pleasure, you need a bigger boost to feel what you originally felt with a smaller boost of pleasure. And when that dulls, you have to get a "bigger boost" to feel that same pleasure as before. It just escalates, and nothing you do can stop it from escalating. The only solution is to go along with it and receive bigger and bigger boosts...or quit.

But it doesn't apply only to drugs, oh no. This principle applies to everything. Eating, sexual behavior, alcohol, etcetera. Some things may take a very long time to completely dull, while other things dull relatively quickly. This is why I think immortality is a very bad idea.

Any thoughts on this?

I had a discussion with rross and sdavio about this on a different thread. Currently where we are at in the discussion is that it may be much more conducive to analysis to look at "pleasure" in the first or maybe 2nd derivative. Basically, what matters less is whether or not you have your desires fulfilled at some certain point...instead what matters much more is the RATE of fulfillment. So, if the rate stays constant, you are indifferent. If the rate increases, you feel pleasure. If the rate decreases, even if what you are doing has "positive utility", you will feel displeasure.
STALIN
Posts: 3,726
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1/7/2014 6:41:40 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/7/2014 2:30:11 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 1/7/2014 2:18:42 PM, bubbatheclown wrote:
Any pleasurable behavior that is repeated enough will become dull. Any displeasurable behavior that is repeated will become increasingly tolerable.

This is the explanation behind drugs. What drugs are essentially is raw pleasure. Even very mild pleasure can be enjoyable the very first time it's done, so small amounts of drugs are pleasurable the first time they are used. Then, when your mind dulls itself to this form and quantity of pleasure, you need a bigger boost to feel what you originally felt with a smaller boost of pleasure. And when that dulls, you have to get a "bigger boost" to feel that same pleasure as before. It just escalates, and nothing you do can stop it from escalating. The only solution is to go along with it and receive bigger and bigger boosts...or quit.

But it doesn't apply only to drugs, oh no. This principle applies to everything. Eating, sexual behavior, alcohol, etcetera. Some things may take a very long time to completely dull, while other things dull relatively quickly. This is why I think immortality is a very bad idea.

Any thoughts on this?

So, with regards to biological immortality; you may be correct.
Caploxion
Posts: 454
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1/10/2014 1:25:16 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/7/2014 2:18:42 PM, bubbatheclown wrote:
Any pleasurable behavior that is repeated enough will become dull. Any displeasurable behavior that is repeated will become increasingly tolerable.

This is the explanation behind drugs. What drugs are essentially is raw pleasure. Even very mild pleasure can be enjoyable the very first time it's done, so small amounts of drugs are pleasurable the first time they are used. Then, when your mind dulls itself to this form and quantity of pleasure, you need a bigger boost to feel what you originally felt with a smaller boost of pleasure. And when that dulls, you have to get a "bigger boost" to feel that same pleasure as before. It just escalates, and nothing you do can stop it from escalating. The only solution is to go along with it and receive bigger and bigger boosts...or quit.

But it doesn't apply only to drugs, oh no. This principle applies to everything. Eating, sexual behavior, alcohol, etcetera. Some things may take a very long time to completely dull, while other things dull relatively quickly. This is why I think immortality is a very bad idea.

Any thoughts on this?

Human valuing is done via a relativity scale. As these pleasurable things become commonplace, they will soon be considered 'what is to be expected', and thus lose value to an extent. It will then take a heightened pleasure (in your example, bigger boosts) for that human to experience pleasure of the same quantity as before. It's an insatiable psychology fueled only by a desire mechanism and a blind operator.
"That's what people do. They breed, and then their children breed, and then their children do it, and their children do it. But, have you ever asked why we do it?" - Jim 'Metamorphhh' Crawford

"There is no doubt that life is given us, not to be enjoyed, but to be overcome; to be got over." - Arthur Schopenhauer

"It's like building a broken building, repairing it and then saying that now I have value in doing so...but it didn't need to be broken in the first place." -Gary 'Inmendham' Mosher
GarretKadeDupre
Posts: 2,023
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1/10/2014 7:43:40 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
There is a counter-example for all of that. One of them is that some drugs cause reverse-tolerance, meaning their effect becomes stronger each time you take it instead of weakening.

I'm pretty sure that tolerance is a purely biological phenomenon and not something inherent to the experience of pleasure.
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Wocambs
Posts: 1,505
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1/10/2014 8:46:39 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
The pleasure gained from drugs is just as real as any other kind, really. They induce an altered perspective of what's going on, which might be pleasurable. This will become quite clear if you read Aldous Huxley's 'The Doors of Perception' - he describes a mescaline trip, and he notices that 'ordinary' objects such as flowers become objects of intense beauty and significance.

Perhaps heroin could be somewhat accurately described as 'raw pleasure', but I think what happens is that while on heroin you simply stop caring about 'bad things' while simultaneously experiencing some kind of full-body orgasm.
bubbatheclown
Posts: 1,258
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1/11/2014 11:26:28 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Because of this, immortality would be a bad idea because you'd soon eventually tired of everything.
Unless...scientists found a way to alter the brain so that the same thing will be pleasurable no matter how many times it's done. But this could also be problematic, because some people who couldn't handle it would engage in the same act for all eternity. Also, that would inevitably apply to pain as well.
GarretKadeDupre
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1/11/2014 6:31:53 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/10/2014 8:46:39 PM, Wocambs wrote:
Perhaps heroin could be somewhat accurately described as 'raw pleasure', but I think what happens is that while on heroin you simply stop caring about 'bad things' while simultaneously experiencing some kind of full-body orgasm.

From my experience with weaker opiates, I'd agree. The experience is more about the absence of pain than the presence of additional pleasure, but the addition of pleasure is certainly a part of it.
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Wocambs
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1/11/2014 6:57:07 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/11/2014 6:31:53 PM, GarretKadeDupre wrote:
At 1/10/2014 8:46:39 PM, Wocambs wrote:
Perhaps heroin could be somewhat accurately described as 'raw pleasure', but I think what happens is that while on heroin you simply stop caring about 'bad things' while simultaneously experiencing some kind of full-body orgasm.


From my experience with weaker opiates, I'd agree. The experience is more about the absence of pain than the presence of additional pleasure, but the addition of pleasure is certainly a part of it.

Thanks for your input! I have no experience at all with them, so I'm glad to hear I'm not giving the complete wrong impression.
GarretKadeDupre
Posts: 2,023
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1/11/2014 7:55:16 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/11/2014 6:57:07 PM, Wocambs wrote:
I have no experience at all with them

Clich" & obligatory, but SINCERE: please keep up the good work! =D
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LogicalLunatic
Posts: 1,633
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8/2/2014 1:44:21 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Ah yes, my first forum thread (I think).
And so that no one else has to say it:
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Otokage
Posts: 2,366
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8/3/2014 1:03:50 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/7/2014 2:18:42 PM, bubbatheclown wrote:
Any pleasurable behavior that is repeated enough will become dull. Any displeasurable behavior that is repeated will become increasingly tolerable.

This is the explanation behind drugs. What drugs are essentially is raw pleasure. Even very mild pleasure can be enjoyable the very first time it's done, so small amounts of drugs are pleasurable the first time they are used. Then, when your mind dulls itself to this form and quantity of pleasure, you need a bigger boost to feel what you originally felt with a smaller boost of pleasure. And when that dulls, you have to get a "bigger boost" to feel that same pleasure as before. It just escalates, and nothing you do can stop it from escalating. The only solution is to go along with it and receive bigger and bigger boosts...or quit.

But it doesn't apply only to drugs, oh no. This principle applies to everything. Eating, sexual behavior, alcohol, etcetera. Some things may take a very long time to completely dull, while other things dull relatively quickly. This is why I think immortality is a very bad idea.

Any thoughts on this?

While the principle is indeed the same, the mechanism is not the same to the things you have mention. In one side, you have, ie, a person becoming "tolerant" to a drug because the body is increasing the speed of metabolic routes in order to quickly eliminate more and more toxin. On the other side, you have, ie, an overstimulated neuron that starts ignoring an stimuli due to this stimuli being persistent. There's more ways you can become tolerant to something, and thus for each stimuli there's a specific way to provoke tolerance/intolerance.

As for inmortality, I don't get why this is a problem. The body becomes "dull" due to overstimulation sustained over time, not due to receive the stimulus many times during your life. This is pretty clear to, ie, drug users. I smoke weed since I was 15 years old, but since I smoke in a very discontinuous way over time, I have never been able to smoke even a half a joint, which evidences that I have not become tolerant despite being smoking for 10 years now.

So no, I don't think me being immortal would matter.
ben2974
Posts: 767
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8/4/2014 12:01:25 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Well, what about simply waiting it off for a bit? Not quitting, but just waiting? You know, moderation? This works with all kinds of foods/beverages and general experiences (like going to/into a pool and relaxing).
sadolite
Posts: 9,074
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8/4/2014 7:14:29 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/7/2014 2:18:42 PM, bubbatheclown wrote:
Any pleasurable behavior that is repeated enough will become dull. Any displeasurable behavior that is repeated will become increasingly tolerable.

This is the explanation behind drugs. What drugs are essentially is raw pleasure. Even very mild pleasure can be enjoyable the very first time it's done, so small amounts of drugs are pleasurable the first time they are used. Then, when your mind dulls itself to this form and quantity of pleasure, you need a bigger boost to feel what you originally felt with a smaller boost of pleasure. And when that dulls, you have to get a "bigger boost" to feel that same pleasure as before. It just escalates, and nothing you do can stop it from escalating. The only solution is to go along with it and receive bigger and bigger boosts...or quit.

But it doesn't apply only to drugs, oh no. This principle applies to everything. Eating, sexual behavior, alcohol, etcetera. Some things may take a very long time to completely dull, while other things dull relatively quickly. This is why I think immortality is a very bad idea.

Any thoughts on this?

"This is the explanation behind drugs." Tyranny works exactly the same way. You can take a free society and give it little doses of tyranny over time and before you know it the people well beg to have themselves enslaved. Look how much freedom we as a nation have given up in just 30 years, it's really quite mindboggling. we will be complete slaves to govt in another 30 years. The only reason you will exist will be to serve govt and it's debt to the world. You will cease to be an individual but only a expendable number and statistic. Then history repeats and repeats and repeats.
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LogicalLunatic
Posts: 1,633
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8/12/2014 7:55:30 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/4/2014 7:14:29 PM, sadolite wrote:
At 1/7/2014 2:18:42 PM, bubbatheclown wrote:
Any pleasurable behavior that is repeated enough will become dull. Any displeasurable behavior that is repeated will become increasingly tolerable.

This is the explanation behind drugs. What drugs are essentially is raw pleasure. Even very mild pleasure can be enjoyable the very first time it's done, so small amounts of drugs are pleasurable the first time they are used. Then, when your mind dulls itself to this form and quantity of pleasure, you need a bigger boost to feel what you originally felt with a smaller boost of pleasure. And when that dulls, you have to get a "bigger boost" to feel that same pleasure as before. It just escalates, and nothing you do can stop it from escalating. The only solution is to go along with it and receive bigger and bigger boosts...or quit.

But it doesn't apply only to drugs, oh no. This principle applies to everything. Eating, sexual behavior, alcohol, etcetera. Some things may take a very long time to completely dull, while other things dull relatively quickly. This is why I think immortality is a very bad idea.

Any thoughts on this?

"This is the explanation behind drugs." Tyranny works exactly the same way. You can take a free society and give it little doses of tyranny over time and before you know it the people well beg to have themselves enslaved. Look how much freedom we as a nation have given up in just 30 years, it's really quite mindboggling. we will be complete slaves to govt in another 30 years. The only reason you will exist will be to serve govt and it's debt to the world. You will cease to be an individual but only a expendable number and statistic. Then history repeats and repeats and repeats.

I agree.
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