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is suicide morally wrong?

suttichart.denpruektham
Posts: 1,115
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1/10/2014 12:29:38 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
I don't seem to find any reasons to convince me that self-killing can be wrong in any way but a religion aspect - which I am not interested in discussing.

So why it is so wrong to be able to chose when to die?

If you don't have any children, if your are old enough that your parents are all pass away, friends and love one? Is there any friends more important than your own life?

I don't plan on killing myself soon but I just don't see the reason to spend every bit of money I earned in during my retirement in a final fanatic adventure and chose to die when I am rich and healthy instead of a painful death through deceases and grinding poverty that the pension can offer.
whatledge
Posts: 210
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1/10/2014 12:32:58 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/10/2014 12:29:38 PM, suttichart.denpruektham wrote:
I don't seem to find any reasons to convince me that self-killing can be wrong in any way but a religion aspect - which I am not interested in discussing.

So why it is so wrong to be able to chose when to die?

If you don't have any children, if your are old enough that your parents are all pass away, friends and love one? Is there any friends more important than your own life?

I don't plan on killing myself soon but I just don't see the reason to spend every bit of money I earned in during my retirement in a final fanatic adventure and chose to die when I am rich and healthy instead of a painful death through deceases and grinding poverty that the pension can offer.

Suicide isn't inherently wrong, a lot people just have problems with it, as they look at it as devaluing the human life (ie it devalues their own life). However, it is also wrong in an utilitarian sense, as there is perhaps no greater resource than the human being in able to make changes around the world. So as long as a human being is healthy, therefore, one may argue that any rational human being has a "moral imperative" to live and try to be beneficial to society. That is, of course, a subjective opinion, as nihilists hardly see the purpose in this, but it makes sense to a lot of people too.
R0b1Billion
Posts: 3,733
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1/10/2014 12:59:14 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
There is no such thing as suicide in a vacuum, so the moral conversation is going to be quite useless until we add some moral framework around it. Unless we're talking about a person on a desert island, who completely unemotionally decides it's best to die for some reason, there is going to some more factors to consider!

First of all, people are social animals. Your attempt to remove the actor from society is inadequate. Even with minimal friends and family, we are still going to have many social connections, and we are still a contributing member of society.

An analysis of suicide requires a psychological perspective. I am not trained in psychology, however I did go through a suicidal phase in my late teens so I will use that as a basis.

I think that suicide can be morally benign. If I'm experiencing a lot of pain, or if I'm old and see myself as a burden on others and believe I have lived my life to its end, there is little wrong with deciding to die. Indeed, as we age our bodies deteriorate and death is a relief from these ailments. Death can be the greatest thing about life, if our lives become unbearable. Practically-speaking, I don't believe this often happens, because we can contribute in others' lives in so many ways that it's rare that somebody is a complete burden. But it does happen and it can be tragic when death is not allowed as an option.

With that said, suicide is rarely due to these reasons. It is usually due to the psychological need to strike out at others. It is the ultimate act of selfishness. We are removing ourselves from everybody else's lives by force, refusing to help anyone anymore, refusing to contribute, and *hopefully* teaching them a lesson that they won't forget: that they should have treated us better than they did. We want them to ache in their hearts for the opportunities they missed to make us feel better and to love us. We want to stun them out of their complacency and make them remember our name well.

This is obviously not moral.
Beliefs in a nutshell:
- The Ends never justify the Means.
- Objectivity is secondary to subjectivity.
- The War on Drugs is the worst policy in the U.S.
- Most people worship technology as a religion.
- Computers will never become sentient.
Illegalcombatant
Posts: 4,008
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1/10/2014 6:27:39 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/10/2014 12:29:38 PM, suttichart.denpruektham wrote:
I don't seem to find any reasons to convince me that self-killing can be wrong in any way but a religion aspect - which I am not interested in discussing.

So why it is so wrong to be able to chose when to die?

If you don't have any children, if your are old enough that your parents are all pass away, friends and love one? Is there any friends more important than your own life?

I don't plan on killing myself soon but I just don't see the reason to spend every bit of money I earned in during my retirement in a final fanatic adventure and chose to die when I am rich and healthy instead of a painful death through deceases and grinding poverty that the pension can offer.

IF people decide to die on their own terms, instead of drawing it out living in old age homes, well that will collapse that businesssector now won't it.

Think of the jobs !!!!
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
dylancatlow
Posts: 12,245
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1/10/2014 6:40:32 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/10/2014 12:59:14 PM, R0b1Billion wrote:
With that said, suicide is rarely due to these reasons. It is usually due to the psychological need to strike out at others. It is the ultimate act of selfishness. We are removing ourselves from everybody else's lives by force, refusing to help anyone anymore, refusing to contribute, and *hopefully* teaching them a lesson that they won't forget: that they should have treated us better than they did.

This is utter bullsh1t.
R0b1Billion
Posts: 3,733
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1/10/2014 6:41:49 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/10/2014 6:40:32 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 1/10/2014 12:59:14 PM, R0b1Billion wrote:
With that said, suicide is rarely due to these reasons. It is usually due to the psychological need to strike out at others. It is the ultimate act of selfishness. We are removing ourselves from everybody else's lives by force, refusing to help anyone anymore, refusing to contribute, and *hopefully* teaching them a lesson that they won't forget: that they should have treated us better than they did.

This is utter bullsh1t.

LOL fair enough, I said I'm not a psychologist.
Beliefs in a nutshell:
- The Ends never justify the Means.
- Objectivity is secondary to subjectivity.
- The War on Drugs is the worst policy in the U.S.
- Most people worship technology as a religion.
- Computers will never become sentient.
Dazz
Posts: 1,163
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1/11/2014 10:07:08 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/10/2014 12:29:38 PM, suttichart.denpruektham wrote:
I don't seem to find any reasons to convince me that self-killing can be wrong in any way but a religion aspect - which I am not interested in discussing.

So why it is so wrong to be able to chose when to die?

If you don't have any children, if your are old enough that your parents are all pass away, friends and love one? Is there any friends more important than your own life?

I don't plan on killing myself soon but I just don't see the reason to spend every bit of money I earned in during my retirement in a final fanatic adventure and chose to die when I am rich and healthy instead of a painful death through deceases and grinding poverty that the pension can offer.

And I took around 10-15 minutes to ponder and to develop a relevant statement but got failed to answer. The problem was to get it that either "suicide is morally right?".
Remove the "I want", remainder is the "peace". ~Al-Ghazali~
"This time will also pass", a dose to cure both; the excitement & the grievance. ~Ayaz~
Pareidolic-Dreamer
Posts: 84
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1/12/2014 10:36:46 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/10/2014 12:29:38 PM, suttichart.denpruektham wrote:
I don't seem to find any reasons to convince me that self-killing can be wrong in any way but a religion aspect - which I am not interested in discussing.

So why it is so wrong to be able to chose when to die?

If you don't have any children, if your are old enough that your parents are all pass away, friends and love one? Is there any friends more important than your own life?

I don't plan on killing myself soon but I just don't see the reason to spend every bit of money I earned in during my retirement in a final fanatic adventure and chose to die when I am rich and healthy instead of a painful death through deceases and grinding poverty that the pension can offer.

IMHO, your life is the only thing that is really yours. However, it is also my opinion that if a person decides to take their own life then that person owes his or her loved ones (be they relatives, or friends.) an explanation and a chance to say good bye. Most of us do not live this life alone, or without support, (no matter how small,) from someone. Anyone who has decided to check out, owes it to their loved ones to make them understand that they are in no way responsible for your decision to go.

In my opinion, this is not something you can do half assed. You must spend what ever time it takes to make them understand. Some never will let go, but most will get it.
Pareidolic-Dreamer
I see wall people.

When I argue against someone's truths, I always feel like I am arguing just as strongly against my own.
suttichart.denpruektham
Posts: 1,115
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1/13/2014 9:23:30 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/12/2014 10:36:46 PM, Pareidolic-Dreamer wrote:
At 1/10/2014 12:29:38 PM, suttichart.denpruektham wrote:
I don't seem to find any reasons to convince me that self-killing can be wrong in any way but a religion aspect - which I am not interested in discussing.

So why it is so wrong to be able to chose when to die?

If you don't have any children, if your are old enough that your parents are all pass away, friends and love one? Is there any friends more important than your own life?

I don't plan on killing myself soon but I just don't see the reason to spend every bit of money I earned in during my retirement in a final fanatic adventure and chose to die when I am rich and healthy instead of a painful death through deceases and grinding poverty that the pension can offer.


IMHO, your life is the only thing that is really yours. However, it is also my opinion that if a person decides to take their own life then that person owes his or her loved ones (be they relatives, or friends.) an explanation and a chance to say good bye. Most of us do not live this life alone, or without support, (no matter how small,) from someone. Anyone who has decided to check out, owes it to their loved ones to make them understand that they are in no way responsible for your decision to go.

In my opinion, this is not something you can do half assed. You must spend what ever time it takes to make them understand. Some never will let go, but most will get it.

For me friends are, and will always be limited to the people you know during your childhood and some most extraordinary person that ever came in to your life.

Your colleagues, your bosses, your customers, and your business associates are no friends. They are either your preys or your predators, potentially a sources for resources you desired or a threat to resources you possesses. They may be closed but surely, a very rare people will hold me dear. If I am dying now would you mourn my losses? Surely not or at least not more than you a pig being slaughtered for your steak.

This world is not very warm and loving that's why I think it is possible to avoid or contain the feeling of sorrow of those who I hold dear by only do it sometime in my retirement.

And actually even for those who hold me dear, forcing me to die painfully in rotten and decay body is hardly enough reason for love.
TrueScotsman
Posts: 515
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1/13/2014 11:23:06 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/10/2014 12:29:38 PM, suttichart.denpruektham wrote:
I don't seem to find any reasons to convince me that self-killing can be wrong in any way but a religion aspect - which I am not interested in discussing.

So why it is so wrong to be able to chose when to die?

If you don't have any children, if your are old enough that your parents are all pass away, friends and love one? Is there any friends more important than your own life?

I don't plan on killing myself soon but I just don't see the reason to spend every bit of money I earned in during my retirement in a final fanatic adventure and chose to die when I am rich and healthy instead of a painful death through deceases and grinding poverty that the pension can offer.

In regards to acts that can be deemed wrong, they can be broken up into two kind of acts.

1. Acts of Commission.
2. Acts of Omission.

I know religiously based ethics also make this distinction, but I have even heard Sam Harris accept this notion in his book on Lying. Which is a good read for anyone.

I would say that if suicide were to be argued as being morally wrong it would be in regards to latter act, the act of omission. As they fail to contribute any good and moral act for the rest of what would have been their lives.

Though, I think we also need to evaluate on an individual basis what their intent was. This can be rather difficult as they may not have even left a suicide note, and it also would go into some pretty murky moral territory to attempt to find out their intentions in order to find it either morally justified or not.

Therefore, I would say that it would be wrong in almost all instances to say that a person committing suicide was "morally wrong," as it can be extremely difficult to impute ill intent to their actions. It is not wrong for a person to end their own life to escape deep suffering, though it is of course extremely sad and wish that they would seek other alternatives.

Or you have people with psychological and neurological issues that drive them to suicide, even former NFL players like Junior Seau who tested positive for CTE, a condition developed by repeated brain damage. These definitely cannot have a judgement of morally wrong imputed to their actions.

Also, going into the idea of acts of omission would be mere speculation, unless it was a scenario such as the following..

Say a person was on a bridge ready to jump off, and while they were standing there a person is hit by a car on that bridge... and of course the car sped off leaving only the injured victim behind. If the person jumped, rather than helping the injured victim of the accident.. I would conclude that their committing suicide was morally wrong.

Regards,
TrueScotsman
wrichcirw
Posts: 11,196
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1/13/2014 1:21:25 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/10/2014 12:29:38 PM, suttichart.denpruektham wrote:
I don't seem to find any reasons to convince me that self-killing can be wrong in any way but a religion aspect - which I am not interested in discussing.

So why it is so wrong to be able to chose when to die?

If you don't have any children, if your are old enough that your parents are all pass away, friends and love one? Is there any friends more important than your own life?

I don't plan on killing myself soon but I just don't see the reason to spend every bit of money I earned in during my retirement in a final fanatic adventure and chose to die when I am rich and healthy instead of a painful death through deceases and grinding poverty that the pension can offer.

lol, there was already a gigantic thread recently asking this same question.

I liked this answer the most:

At 12/26/2013 3:59:53 AM, rross wrote:
At 12/21/2013 9:10:09 PM, sdavio wrote:

To me, suicide shows a shocking lack of imagination. I suspect that it's mostly due to fear of some kind.

http://www.debate.org...
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
suttichart.denpruektham
Posts: 1,115
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1/14/2014 12:30:11 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/13/2014 1:21:25 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 1/10/2014 12:29:38 PM, suttichart.denpruektham wrote:
I don't seem to find any reasons to convince me that self-killing can be wrong in any way but a religion aspect - which I am not interested in discussing.

So why it is so wrong to be able to chose when to die?

If you don't have any children, if your are old enough that your parents are all pass away, friends and love one? Is there any friends more important than your own life?

I don't plan on killing myself soon but I just don't see the reason to spend every bit of money I earned in during my retirement in a final fanatic adventure and chose to die when I am rich and healthy instead of a painful death through deceases and grinding poverty that the pension can offer.

lol, there was already a gigantic thread recently asking this same question.

I liked this answer the most:

At 12/26/2013 3:59:53 AM, rross wrote:
At 12/21/2013 9:10:09 PM, sdavio wrote:

To me, suicide shows a shocking lack of imagination. I suspect that it's mostly due to fear of some kind.

http://www.debate.org...

on yeah, I even post on it lol, how could I forgot that.
Pareidolic-Dreamer
Posts: 84
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1/14/2014 3:14:06 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/13/2014 9:23:30 AM, suttichart.denpruektham wrote:
At 1/12/2014 10:36:46 PM, Pareidolic-Dreamer wrote:
At 1/10/2014 12:29:38 PM, suttichart.denpruektham wrote:


For me friends are, and will always be limited to the people you know during your childhood and some most extraordinary person that ever came in to your life.

So, you have no friends as an adult?

Your colleagues, your bosses, your customers, and your business associates are no friends. They are either your preys or your predators, potentially a sources for resources you desired or a threat to resources you possesses. They may be closed but surely, a very rare people will hold me dear. If I am dying now would you mourn my losses? Surely not or at least not more than you a pig being slaughtered for your steak.

How could I mourn you? I do not know you. If you died today, I would not know.
But, someone would know, and they would mourn for you.

This world is not very warm and loving that's why I think it is possible to avoid or contain the feeling of sorrow of those who I hold dear by only do it sometime in my retirement.

So what if the world is not warm and loving? You make your own environment of warmth and love.
YOU do that with the help of those around you who want those things too.
You speak of "The World," as though it is some hateful creep that lives down the street.
You don't have a relationship with "The World." You have relationships with the people around you, the people you see every day.
Doing things because of "The World," is only going to leave you feeling helpless and hopeless.


And actually even for those who hold me dear, forcing me to die painfully in rotten and decay body is hardly enough reason for love.

Well, this is what I took to be the main idea of the op. I agree, and noone can force you to do that.
But again, you seem to have a slightly skewed definition of love.
People who love you want to keep you around because of the hole your absence will leave in them.
However, it is that same love that will allow them to accept that you wouldn't want to live in pain.
Pareidolic-Dreamer
I see wall people.

When I argue against someone's truths, I always feel like I am arguing just as strongly against my own.