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Nietzsche, Religion & the Evolution of Morals

phantom
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1/11/2014 6:48:54 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Religion, as Nietzsche observed, has an impeding effect on the evolution of morality. Moral codes originate in cultures according to those culture's environments. Certain principles best serve the survival and will to power of societies and the master or slave classes, which are then set up as a moral code, sometimes naturally, sometimes of design. What one nation considers evil, another might consider good and generations latter the reverse could be true.

This is all right and proper that morals should be relative across cultures and generations, at least in the time being. It contributes to the well being of those societies. However, it is not so easy for society to simply consider something right and that be its authority. In order to provide basis and authority to moral codes, the leaders and thinkers declare that their moral code is the will of god(s) and the foundation of religion. Thus they give credibility and authority to their moral beliefs and in so doing immortalize the moral code and make it absolute and eternal. The next generations follow the moral code believing it to be divine and obeyed by the wise men. Whoever dares speak against it must be a blasphemer and immoral.

This stunts the growth of morality. Societies provide authority to their moral principles but in so doing create an eternal and fixed morality, making it at times highly difficult to change. The ethics of society thus do not change when they need to change and cultures live by outdated systems. The reason for this being that religion has served too much as the affirmation of all morality.

Thoughts?
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
Noumena
Posts: 6,047
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1/11/2014 7:45:09 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/11/2014 6:48:54 PM, phantom wrote:
Religion, as Nietzsche observed, has an impeding effect on the evolution of morality. Moral codes originate in cultures according to those culture's environments.

I'm not entirely sure if this is a good point of emphasis.

Certain principles best serve the survival and will to power of societies and the master or slave classes, which are then set up as a moral code, sometimes naturally, sometimes of design. What one nation considers evil, another might consider good and generations latter the reverse could be true.

This is all right and proper that morals should be relative across cultures and generations, at least in the time being. It contributes to the well being of those societies. However, it is not so easy for society to simply consider something right and that be its authority. In order to provide basis and authority to moral codes, the leaders and thinkers declare that their moral code is the will of god(s) and the foundation of religion. Thus they give credibility and authority to their moral beliefs and in so doing immortalize the moral code and make it absolute and eternal. The next generations follow the moral code believing it to be divine and obeyed by the wise men. Whoever dares speak against it must be a blasphemer and immoral.

This stunts the growth of morality. Societies provide authority to their moral principles but in so doing create an eternal and fixed morality, making it at times highly difficult to change. The ethics of society thus do not change when they need to change and cultures live by outdated systems. The reason for this being that religion has served too much as the affirmation of all morality.

Thoughts?

Interesting.
: At 5/13/2014 7:05:20 PM, Crescendo wrote:
: The difference is that the gay movement is currently pushing their will on Churches, as shown in the link to gay marriage in Denmark. Meanwhile, the Inquisition ended several centuries ago.
Wocambs
Posts: 1,505
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1/11/2014 7:55:01 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
I haven't read too much of his work, but the way you're structuring the argument seems to be that you see religion as hindering the dynamism of cultural relativism. I don't think Nietzsche was a cultural relativist at all, I think he believed that individual's should create for themselves their own 'good life' rather than having one dictated to them.

Religion impedes the individual's moral evolution is what Nietzsche would stress, I think.
phantom
Posts: 6,774
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1/11/2014 8:41:52 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/11/2014 7:45:09 PM, Noumena wrote:
At 1/11/2014 6:48:54 PM, phantom wrote:
Religion, as Nietzsche observed, has an impeding effect on the evolution of morality. Moral codes originate in cultures according to those culture's environments.

I'm not entirely sure if this is a good point of emphasis.

The former or the latter?
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
Noumena
Posts: 6,047
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1/11/2014 8:42:39 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/11/2014 8:41:52 PM, phantom wrote:
At 1/11/2014 7:45:09 PM, Noumena wrote:
At 1/11/2014 6:48:54 PM, phantom wrote:
Religion, as Nietzsche observed, has an impeding effect on the evolution of morality. Moral codes originate in cultures according to those culture's environments.

I'm not entirely sure if this is a good point of emphasis.

The former or the latter?

Latter.
: At 5/13/2014 7:05:20 PM, Crescendo wrote:
: The difference is that the gay movement is currently pushing their will on Churches, as shown in the link to gay marriage in Denmark. Meanwhile, the Inquisition ended several centuries ago.
phantom
Posts: 6,774
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1/11/2014 8:45:23 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/11/2014 7:55:01 PM, Wocambs wrote:
I haven't read too much of his work, but the way you're structuring the argument seems to be that you see religion as hindering the dynamism of cultural relativism. I don't think Nietzsche was a cultural relativist at all, I think he believed that individual's should create for themselves their own 'good life' rather than having one dictated to them.


He did, or at least something of that sorts, but that does not matter. Moral evolution is not only compatible with moral relativism. Nietzsche believed that in the past societies used morality to survive. Certain moral codes served different societies better than others. Societies used religion to provide authority to their moral claims and this prohibited future ability for different moral codes to develop and the keeping of useless ones. This seems somewhat like moral relativism, but a none-relativist can still hold to all of them since it does not take relativism to claim that societies in the past made use of morality and as it suited their environments. Moral relativists could use Nietzsche's argument for sure, but it does not contradict other view points. Maybe I am wrong on some points though.

Religion impedes the individual's moral evolution is what Nietzsche would stress, I think.

He might stress both. I'll find quotes tomorrow.
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
phantom
Posts: 6,774
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1/11/2014 8:46:55 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/11/2014 8:42:39 PM, Noumena wrote:
At 1/11/2014 8:41:52 PM, phantom wrote:
At 1/11/2014 7:45:09 PM, Noumena wrote:
At 1/11/2014 6:48:54 PM, phantom wrote:
Religion, as Nietzsche observed, has an impeding effect on the evolution of morality. Moral codes originate in cultures according to those culture's environments.

I'm not entirely sure if this is a good point of emphasis.

The former or the latter?

Latter.

Isn't that what Nietzsche believed?
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
Noumena
Posts: 6,047
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1/11/2014 8:54:38 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/11/2014 8:46:55 PM, phantom wrote:
At 1/11/2014 8:42:39 PM, Noumena wrote:
At 1/11/2014 8:41:52 PM, phantom wrote:
At 1/11/2014 7:45:09 PM, Noumena wrote:
At 1/11/2014 6:48:54 PM, phantom wrote:
Religion, as Nietzsche observed, has an impeding effect on the evolution of morality. Moral codes originate in cultures according to those culture's environments.

I'm not entirely sure if this is a good point of emphasis.

The former or the latter?

Latter.

Isn't that what Nietzsche believed?

I'm not entirely sure. I don't think I've ever obsessed over him quite enough to know for sure. I just have an irking feeling that that wasn't him. Feel free to disagree or prove me wrong though.
: At 5/13/2014 7:05:20 PM, Crescendo wrote:
: The difference is that the gay movement is currently pushing their will on Churches, as shown in the link to gay marriage in Denmark. Meanwhile, the Inquisition ended several centuries ago.
ClassicRobert
Posts: 2,487
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1/11/2014 9:04:12 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/11/2014 8:54:38 PM, Noumena wrote:
At 1/11/2014 8:46:55 PM, phantom wrote:
At 1/11/2014 8:42:39 PM, Noumena wrote:
At 1/11/2014 8:41:52 PM, phantom wrote:
At 1/11/2014 7:45:09 PM, Noumena wrote:
At 1/11/2014 6:48:54 PM, phantom wrote:
Religion, as Nietzsche observed, has an impeding effect on the evolution of morality. Moral codes originate in cultures according to those culture's environments.

I'm not entirely sure if this is a good point of emphasis.

The former or the latter?

Latter.

Isn't that what Nietzsche believed?

I'm not entirely sure. I don't think I've ever obsessed over him quite enough to know for sure. I just have an irking feeling that that wasn't him. Feel free to disagree or prove me wrong though.

Well, in Thus Spoke Zarathustra, he argued that all of morality was taught to people by society and others. That would qualify as originating from the environmental cultures, in my view.
Debate me: Economic decision theory should be adjusted to include higher-order preferences for non-normative purposes http://www.debate.org...

Do you really believe that? Or not? If you believe it, you should man up and defend it in a debate. -RoyLatham

My Pet Fish is such a Douche- NiamC

It's an app to meet friends and stuff, sort of like an adult club penguin- Thett3, describing Tinder
Noumena
Posts: 6,047
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1/11/2014 9:07:18 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/11/2014 9:04:12 PM, ClassicRobert wrote:
At 1/11/2014 8:54:38 PM, Noumena wrote:
At 1/11/2014 8:46:55 PM, phantom wrote:
At 1/11/2014 8:42:39 PM, Noumena wrote:
At 1/11/2014 8:41:52 PM, phantom wrote:
At 1/11/2014 7:45:09 PM, Noumena wrote:
At 1/11/2014 6:48:54 PM, phantom wrote:
Religion, as Nietzsche observed, has an impeding effect on the evolution of morality. Moral codes originate in cultures according to those culture's environments.

I'm not entirely sure if this is a good point of emphasis.

The former or the latter?

Latter.

Isn't that what Nietzsche believed?

I'm not entirely sure. I don't think I've ever obsessed over him quite enough to know for sure. I just have an irking feeling that that wasn't him. Feel free to disagree or prove me wrong though.

Well, in Thus Spoke Zarathustra, he argued that all of morality was taught to people by society and others. That would qualify as originating from the environmental cultures, in my view.

I see a difference between the idea of moralities being contingent according to the specific conditions of culture and moralities being perpetuated by cultural practice.
: At 5/13/2014 7:05:20 PM, Crescendo wrote:
: The difference is that the gay movement is currently pushing their will on Churches, as shown in the link to gay marriage in Denmark. Meanwhile, the Inquisition ended several centuries ago.
ClassicRobert
Posts: 2,487
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1/11/2014 9:11:34 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/11/2014 9:07:18 PM, Noumena wrote:
At 1/11/2014 9:04:12 PM, ClassicRobert wrote:
At 1/11/2014 8:54:38 PM, Noumena wrote:
At 1/11/2014 8:46:55 PM, phantom wrote:
At 1/11/2014 8:42:39 PM, Noumena wrote:
At 1/11/2014 8:41:52 PM, phantom wrote:
At 1/11/2014 7:45:09 PM, Noumena wrote:
At 1/11/2014 6:48:54 PM, phantom wrote:
Religion, as Nietzsche observed, has an impeding effect on the evolution of morality. Moral codes originate in cultures according to those culture's environments.

I'm not entirely sure if this is a good point of emphasis.

The former or the latter?

Latter.

Isn't that what Nietzsche believed?

I'm not entirely sure. I don't think I've ever obsessed over him quite enough to know for sure. I just have an irking feeling that that wasn't him. Feel free to disagree or prove me wrong though.

Well, in Thus Spoke Zarathustra, he argued that all of morality was taught to people by society and others. That would qualify as originating from the environmental cultures, in my view.

I see a difference between the idea of moralities being contingent according to the specific conditions of culture and moralities being perpetuated by cultural practice.

What makes culture other than society then?
Debate me: Economic decision theory should be adjusted to include higher-order preferences for non-normative purposes http://www.debate.org...

Do you really believe that? Or not? If you believe it, you should man up and defend it in a debate. -RoyLatham

My Pet Fish is such a Douche- NiamC

It's an app to meet friends and stuff, sort of like an adult club penguin- Thett3, describing Tinder
Noumena
Posts: 6,047
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1/11/2014 9:15:50 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/11/2014 9:11:34 PM, ClassicRobert wrote:
At 1/11/2014 9:07:18 PM, Noumena wrote:
At 1/11/2014 9:04:12 PM, ClassicRobert wrote:
At 1/11/2014 8:54:38 PM, Noumena wrote:
At 1/11/2014 8:46:55 PM, phantom wrote:
At 1/11/2014 8:42:39 PM, Noumena wrote:
At 1/11/2014 8:41:52 PM, phantom wrote:
At 1/11/2014 7:45:09 PM, Noumena wrote:
At 1/11/2014 6:48:54 PM, phantom wrote:
Religion, as Nietzsche observed, has an impeding effect on the evolution of morality. Moral codes originate in cultures according to those culture's environments.

I'm not entirely sure if this is a good point of emphasis.

The former or the latter?

Latter.

Isn't that what Nietzsche believed?

I'm not entirely sure. I don't think I've ever obsessed over him quite enough to know for sure. I just have an irking feeling that that wasn't him. Feel free to disagree or prove me wrong though.

Well, in Thus Spoke Zarathustra, he argued that all of morality was taught to people by society and others. That would qualify as originating from the environmental cultures, in my view.

I see a difference between the idea of moralities being contingent according to the specific conditions of culture and moralities being perpetuated by cultural practice.

What makes culture other than society then?

That's not what I mean. The 'original' accumulation of moralities need not be necessarily connected (at least in the way yer implying) with their later perpetuation.
: At 5/13/2014 7:05:20 PM, Crescendo wrote:
: The difference is that the gay movement is currently pushing their will on Churches, as shown in the link to gay marriage in Denmark. Meanwhile, the Inquisition ended several centuries ago.
phantom
Posts: 6,774
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1/11/2014 9:22:02 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/11/2014 8:54:38 PM, Noumena wrote:
At 1/11/2014 8:46:55 PM, phantom wrote:
At 1/11/2014 8:42:39 PM, Noumena wrote:
At 1/11/2014 8:41:52 PM, phantom wrote:
At 1/11/2014 7:45:09 PM, Noumena wrote:
At 1/11/2014 6:48:54 PM, phantom wrote:
Religion, as Nietzsche observed, has an impeding effect on the evolution of morality. Moral codes originate in cultures according to those culture's environments.

I'm not entirely sure if this is a good point of emphasis.

The former or the latter?

Latter.

Isn't that what Nietzsche believed?

I'm not entirely sure. I don't think I've ever obsessed over him quite enough to know for sure. I just have an irking feeling that that wasn't him. Feel free to disagree or prove me wrong though.

I got it mainly from a secondary source so maybe I'm wrong. Here is a quote from "The Philosophy of Friedrich Nietzsche" by H.L. Mencken.

"He found that a code of morals was nothing more than a system of customs; laws and ideas which had its origin in the instinctive desire of some definite race to live under conditions which best subserved its own welfare. The morality of the Egyptians, he found, was one thing, and the morality of the Goths was another. The reason for the difference lay in the fact that the environment of the Egyptians - the climate of their land, the nature of their food supply and the characteristics of the peoples surrounding them - differed from the environment of the Goths."

Or in other words, their moral codes differed for environmental reasons.
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
Noumena
Posts: 6,047
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1/11/2014 9:29:11 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/11/2014 9:22:02 PM, phantom wrote:
At 1/11/2014 8:54:38 PM, Noumena wrote:
At 1/11/2014 8:46:55 PM, phantom wrote:
At 1/11/2014 8:42:39 PM, Noumena wrote:
At 1/11/2014 8:41:52 PM, phantom wrote:
At 1/11/2014 7:45:09 PM, Noumena wrote:
At 1/11/2014 6:48:54 PM, phantom wrote:
Religion, as Nietzsche observed, has an impeding effect on the evolution of morality. Moral codes originate in cultures according to those culture's environments.

I'm not entirely sure if this is a good point of emphasis.

The former or the latter?

Latter.

Isn't that what Nietzsche believed?

I'm not entirely sure. I don't think I've ever obsessed over him quite enough to know for sure. I just have an irking feeling that that wasn't him. Feel free to disagree or prove me wrong though.

I got it mainly from a secondary source so maybe I'm wrong. Here is a quote from "The Philosophy of Friedrich Nietzsche" by H.L. Mencken.

"He found that a code of morals was nothing more than a system of customs; laws and ideas which had its origin in the instinctive desire of some definite race to live under conditions which best subserved its own welfare. The morality of the Egyptians, he found, was one thing, and the morality of the Goths was another. The reason for the difference lay in the fact that the environment of the Egyptians - the climate of their land, the nature of their food supply and the characteristics of the peoples surrounding them - differed from the environment of the Goths."

Or in other words, their moral codes differed for environmental reasons.

Was there any primary sourcing? I'm curious now.
: At 5/13/2014 7:05:20 PM, Crescendo wrote:
: The difference is that the gay movement is currently pushing their will on Churches, as shown in the link to gay marriage in Denmark. Meanwhile, the Inquisition ended several centuries ago.
phantom
Posts: 6,774
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1/11/2014 9:41:55 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/11/2014 9:29:11 PM, Noumena wrote:
At 1/11/2014 9:22:02 PM, phantom wrote:
At 1/11/2014 8:54:38 PM, Noumena wrote:
At 1/11/2014 8:46:55 PM, phantom wrote:
At 1/11/2014 8:42:39 PM, Noumena wrote:
At 1/11/2014 8:41:52 PM, phantom wrote:
At 1/11/2014 7:45:09 PM, Noumena wrote:
At 1/11/2014 6:48:54 PM, phantom wrote:
Religion, as Nietzsche observed, has an impeding effect on the evolution of morality. Moral codes originate in cultures according to those culture's environments.

I'm not entirely sure if this is a good point of emphasis.

The former or the latter?

Latter.

Isn't that what Nietzsche believed?

I'm not entirely sure. I don't think I've ever obsessed over him quite enough to know for sure. I just have an irking feeling that that wasn't him. Feel free to disagree or prove me wrong though.

I got it mainly from a secondary source so maybe I'm wrong. Here is a quote from "The Philosophy of Friedrich Nietzsche" by H.L. Mencken.

"He found that a code of morals was nothing more than a system of customs; laws and ideas which had its origin in the instinctive desire of some definite race to live under conditions which best subserved its own welfare. The morality of the Egyptians, he found, was one thing, and the morality of the Goths was another. The reason for the difference lay in the fact that the environment of the Egyptians - the climate of their land, the nature of their food supply and the characteristics of the peoples surrounding them - differed from the environment of the Goths."

Or in other words, their moral codes differed for environmental reasons.

Was there any primary sourcing? I'm curious now.

I see none. Other than the book, I have nothing else to add for support. Looking at amazon it does have a few reviews stating he makes numerous mistakes but they usually revolve around his equating Schopenhauer's will to live and Nietzsche's will to power.
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)