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# 4 = 7 - 3 is not the same as 4 = 2 + 2

 Posts: 2,052 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 1/14/2014 1:37:46 PMPosted: 4 years agoQuantitatively 4 = 7 - 3 is the same thing as 4 = 2 + 2. The total value on either side of the equal sign in either expression is 4!However, qualitatively the two expressions are not the same! In both Number Theory and Set Theory this has philosophical importance because it demonstrates how the same numerical value can be formulated in at least two ways, which reflects unique and different functions. More formulations are also possible, up to an infinity in accordance with Set Theory.This serves as evidence that one numerical value (or magnitude) can in theory have numerous manifestations - and it speaks directly to the issue of philosophical determinism because it shows that even though math is inherently deterministic ( 1 + 1 must equal 2 ), the total value ( 2 ) can still go on to materialize in different forms ( e.g. 3 - 1, 1/2 + 3/2 ), adding a probabilistic element to even rigid, deterministic mathematics.I believe this characteristic about numerical values and magnitudes is the source of the natural probability found in quantum mechanics. I believe it expresses itself mechanically so it gives the electron the apparent, random "non-localized" effect attributed to it in quantum mechanics. In other words, the value the electron shares with the nucleus of the atom is conserved, so the electron is generally allowed to do a random dance without fear of violating mathematical or mechanistic rules.Your thoughts?
 Posts: 84 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 1/14/2014 3:38:06 PMPosted: 4 years agoAt 1/14/2014 1:37:46 PM, Juan_Pablo wrote:Quantitatively 4 = 7 - 3 is the same thing as 4 = 2 + 2. The total value on either side of the equal sign in either expression is 4!However, qualitatively the two expressions are not the same! In both Number Theory and Set Theory this has philosophical importance because it demonstrates how the same numerical value can be formulated in at least two ways, which reflects unique and different functions. More formulations are also possible, up to an infinity in accordance with Set Theory.This serves as evidence that one numerical value (or magnitude) can in theory have numerous manifestations - and it speaks directly to the issue of philosophical determinism because it shows that even though math is inherently deterministic ( 1 + 1 must equal 2 ), the total value ( 2 ) can still go on to materialize in different forms ( e.g. 3 - 1, 1/2 + 3/2 ), adding a probabilistic element to even rigid, deterministic mathematics.I believe this characteristic about numerical values and magnitudes is the source of the natural probability found in quantum mechanics. I believe it expresses itself mechanically so it gives the electron the apparent, random "non-localized" effect attributed to it in quantum mechanics. In other words, the value the electron shares with the nucleus of the atom is conserved, so the electron is generally allowed to do a random dance without fear of violating mathematical or mechanistic rules.Your thoughts?Not really much to disagree with here. You're basically using math to confirm that there is more than one way to skin a cat.It's an axiom. You can find some form of confirmation of all axioms in all disciplines of thought.What amazes me, is that so few people seem to realize the true implications of this particular axiom.Everything is possible. You only have to find a single mathematical expression that leads to 2, to know that 2 is possible. And you only have to believe that 2 is possible in order to create a mathematical expression that leads to it.We have at our disposal all of the same tools and building materials that the universe built us with. There is no reason we could not build a universe. IF we believe.Pareidolic-Dreamer I see wall people. When I argue against someone's truths, I always feel like I am arguing just as strongly against my own.
 Posts: 5,316 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 1/14/2014 4:57:55 PMPosted: 4 years agoThey do not "go on" to materialise in different forms, as this implies temporality. They do not exist in time, but are just analytic truths. This has no effect on determinism.Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day. Teach him how to be Gay, he'll positively influence the GDP. Social Contract Theory debate: http://www.debate.org...
 Posts: 2,052 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 1/14/2014 7:53:36 PMPosted: 4 years agoAt 1/14/2014 4:57:55 PM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:They do not "go on" to materialise in different forms, as this implies temporality. They do not exist in time, but are just analytic truths. This has no effect on determinism.Stephen, I disagree with you here. Determinism is actually established on the idea that cause and effect are inevitably, unavoidably related - and this is supported on the view that the universe is mathematical and governed by universal principals. However, the entire field of quantum mechanics is used as evidence to show that inside the atom Newtonian principles don't quite apply as they do at our scale of the universe; that is to say that in pieces the atom doesn't seem to obey all Newtonian principles, and the wave behavior of matter ( de Broglie waves ) contributes to the Newtonian break-down of cause an effect. Actually according to the de Broglie Matter-Wave theory this break down of Newtonian rigidity also exhibit with masses at our scale, but it's very small.Quantum Mechanics already demonstrates that cause and effect ( at least with respect to qualities like momentum and position ) isn't as rigid as determinists once believed it was.I'm offering the explanation in the first post above as a way of explaining how probability gets into the picture and why determinism appears to fail.
 Posts: 2,052 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 1/14/2014 8:00:39 PMPosted: 4 years agoSorry.I meant "the wave behavior of matter ( de Broglie waves) contributes to the break-down of Newtonian cause and effect" instead of"the wave behavior of matter ( de Broglie waves ) contributes to the Newtonian break-down of cause an effect."
 Posts: 2,052 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 1/14/2014 8:06:01 PMPosted: 4 years agoStephen, If you need me to explain in greater detail I will.
 Posts: 5,316 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 1/14/2014 8:41:00 PMPosted: 4 years agoYou're not explaining in any detail, for you have not engaged with what I have said. Cause and effect are temporal. Maths is not. Therefore mathematics is not affected by any revelation made in regards to cause and effect.You must establish that mathematics involves temporal events. Which would be explaining how definitions are temporally located (and therefore take up size as well as time, or spacetime) which is ludicrous in the extreme.Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day. Teach him how to be Gay, he'll positively influence the GDP. Social Contract Theory debate: http://www.debate.org...
 Posts: 2,052 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 1/14/2014 9:03:26 PMPosted: 4 years agoAt 1/14/2014 8:41:00 PM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:You're not explaining in any detail, for you have not engaged with what I have said. Cause and effect are temporal. Maths is not. Therefore mathematics is not affected by any revelation made in regards to cause and effect.You must establish that mathematics involves temporal events. Which would be explaining how definitions are temporally located (and therefore take up size as well as time, or spacetime) which is ludicrous in the extreme.No. You're not paying attention to what I'm saying. Quantum mechanics already demonstrates that some things happen indeterministically in the atomic world - but that there is a probability associated to those events. There is no firm foundation for cause and effect with many phenomena. The de Broglie matter-wave theory further reinforces this, by indicating that probability isn't just found inside the atom but also at our level at tiny, indetectable levels! That means that many things inside the atom appear to happen spontaneously - yes, over time!I'm using Number Theory and Set Theory to explain how this can happen in an atomic system ( atomic nucleus and the adhering electrons ) to show that math isn't being violated, and that in one way determinism is still held in place.As a system many of the physical attributes of the systems are conserved; however, various parts take on different values at different times, so as to contribute to the conservation of the whole!I'm using this using Number Theory and Set Theory to demonstrate this roughly, by showing that even though, say, the mass + energy = 4, that 4 can still materialize in a variety of ways spontaneously without energy or anything else being contributed to the atom.Because the value 4 is preserved, determinism remains in tact with respect to this quality of the atom, but with respect to other physical qualities ( the position of electron, it's momentum ) indeterminism becomes an unavoidable feature.In other words the mass + energy conservation takes on many different formulations without outside influence!I hope that helps, Stephen.
 Posts: 5,316 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 1/15/2014 6:05:57 AMPosted: 4 years agoAt 1/14/2014 9:03:26 PM, Juan_Pablo wrote:I'm using this using Number Theory and Set Theory to demonstrate thisAre you using maths as an analogy or as actual evidence? If the former, my only problem is that analogies don't prove anything. If the latter, then my point still stands: maths informs determinism in no meaningful way, as maths has no relationship to determinism.The statement you made that I am engaging with, to be clear, is that "math[s] is inherently deterministic" and that "2 can go on and materialise in different forms". Both of these statements imply numbers have temporality. But neither have temporality. Therefore both statements are false.Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day. Teach him how to be Gay, he'll positively influence the GDP. Social Contract Theory debate: http://www.debate.org...
 Posts: 1,119 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 1/15/2014 9:20:10 AMPosted: 4 years agodoes the ends justify the means? on paper it looks like you can get to 4 a number of ways. But in the case of 7-3 it appears as though you have 7 to begin win and suffer a significant loss in getting to 4. However in the case of 2+2 it appears as though equals are joining forces. Having four sides joined gives you a parallelogram which is 360 degrees. And 360 degrees is a complete circle. A circle is efficient, so 4 is the best number to achieve.Scrutiny Welcome AMAA http://www.debate.org...
 Posts: 2,052 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 1/15/2014 3:40:28 PMPosted: 4 years agoAt 1/15/2014 6:05:57 AM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:At 1/14/2014 9:03:26 PM, Juan_Pablo wrote:I'm using this using Number Theory and Set Theory to demonstrate thisAre you using maths as an analogy or as actual evidence? If the former, my only problem is that analogies don't prove anything. If the latter, then my point still stands: maths informs determinism in no meaningful way, as maths has no relationship to determinism.The statement you made that I am engaging with, to be clear, is that "math[s] is inherently deterministic" and that "2 can go on and materialise in different forms". Both of these statements imply numbers have temporality. But neither have temporality. Therefore both statements are false.In Quantum Mechanics math is used ( the Schrodinger equation for example ) as actual evidence that many deterministic Newtonian principles don't apply.I'll quote Wikipedia on the Schrodinger equation here:"In classical mechanics, a particle has, at every moment, an exact position and an exact momentum. These values change deterministically as the particle moves according to Newton's laws. In quantum mechanics, particles do not have exactly determined properties, and when they are measured, the result is randomly drawn from a probability distribution . . . .""In classical physics, when a ball is rolled slowly up a large hill, it will come to a stop and roll back, because it doesn't have enough energy to get over the top of the hill to the other side. However, the Schr"dinger equation predicts that there is a small probability that the ball will get to the other side of the hill, even if it has too little energy to reach the top." [1].That should answer your first question and your assertion that math has no relevance on determinism. It very much does; for example, let's say I have an object traveling in space at 2000 miles/hour. If the object where to continue with that velocity unimpeded for another 6 hours, determinism ( Newton's first law ) indicates that it will cover a distance of 12,000 miles in that breath of time! ( 2000 miles / hour x 6 hour / 1 = 12,000 miles after the time units are canceled. )The example I just used shows how math can be used to convey a physical transformation in time. This should answer your concern in your second paragraph. You have to understand that what I mean by "formulation" is a function, where two or more physical states ( or properties ) of a system are addressed in terms of a quantity or magnitude. In my example in this post, I used time and speed. But in math a variety of things can be used to describe the state of a system.[1] http://en.wikipedia.org...
 Posts: 5,316 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 1/15/2014 6:33:08 PMPosted: 4 years agoNo, that example had no relevance to maths, but merely expressed the idea that an area of physics is dependent on other factors (whether those factors are deterministic or not has no impact on maths). State only with appeal to mathematics that either of your statements regarding mathematics are true, or withdraw those statements.Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day. Teach him how to be Gay, he'll positively influence the GDP. Social Contract Theory debate: http://www.debate.org...
 Posts: 2,052 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 1/15/2014 8:03:09 PMPosted: 4 years agoAt 1/15/2014 6:33:08 PM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:No, that example had no relevance to maths, but merely expressed the idea that an area of physics is dependent on other factors (whether those factors are deterministic or not has no impact on maths). State only with appeal to mathematics that either of your statements regarding mathematics are true, or withdraw those statements.Stephen, I answered your questions and criticisms in the previous posts. Unless you what me to explain something in greater detail, which I'm willing to do, I think I've provided you with satisfactory answers. However, you are right to say that not all math is firmly attached to determinism, which I would agree with you and which I've already explained several times. Quantum mechanics is a mathematical framework which provides solutions to the position of the electron based on probability. This is one example of math that does not provide solitary certain answers - but answers in terms of probability.As someone who's familiar with the complexity of language in communicating ideas, you can even say that quantum mechanics does provide deterministic solutions - but not in the Newtonian sense. Rather these solutions are expressed in terms of probability and uncertainty!
 Posts: 2,052 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 1/15/2014 8:06:51 PMPosted: 4 years agoIt all depends on how you define determinism.Though for this forum issue I define determinism in the classic philosophical sense, as pertaining to 18/19th century Newtonian mechanics.
 Posts: 2,052 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 1/16/2014 11:45:33 PMPosted: 4 years agoSadolite, did you read my first post? I said quantitatively it's the same thing. It's not the same thing qualitatively, however.
 Posts: 10,078 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 1/17/2014 4:50:14 PMPosted: 4 years agoAt 1/16/2014 11:45:33 PM, Juan_Pablo wrote:Sadolite, did you read my first post? I said quantitatively it's the same thing. It's not the same thing qualitatively, however.It is pointlessBeware of the people who are in your circle but are not in your corner. And with the stroke of a pen people 18 to 21 who own a gun became criminals and public enemy #1 having committed no crime and having said nothing. Just like the Jews in Germany during WW2. Must be a weird feeling. When I hear people crying and whining about their first world problems I think about the universe with everything in it and people in wheelchairs and all of their problems go away.
 Posts: 2,052 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 1/17/2014 4:58:25 PMPosted: 4 years agoAt 1/17/2014 4:50:14 PM, sadolite wrote:At 1/16/2014 11:45:33 PM, Juan_Pablo wrote:Sadolite, did you read my first post? I said quantitatively it's the same thing. It's not the same thing qualitatively, however.It is pointlessNo, I mean something significant with this. Let me give you an example.Let's say two people have a dollar in their pocket and only a dollar. One has a dollar bill and the other has a dollar in change, which includes a quarter.Now both of these people want a gum ball at the gum ball machine in their local store; it requires a quarter to get one. The man with the dollar bill cannot get a gum with what he has - unless he gets change.The man with the dollar in change, which includes a quarter, can get a gum ball.This is actually what I mean with my first post in this thread. Just because quantitatively two formulations can equal 2, not all formulations are identical! This has real merit and real consequences in the our world, as I've just shown to you with this example.I believe this type of issue is playing a role in the weird, scientific field of quantum mechanics!
 Posts: 2,052 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 1/17/2014 5:17:06 PMPosted: 4 years agoJust because two formulations can equal 2, doesn't mean these two formulations are qualitatively the same.Even thought both people have more than enough to purchase a gum ball, one doesn't have the right denomination to purchase one! He has to go through the extra steps of transforming his denomination into something he can use.
 Posts: 10,078 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 1/18/2014 3:17:15 PMPosted: 4 years agoAt 1/17/2014 4:58:25 PM, Juan_Pablo wrote:At 1/17/2014 4:50:14 PM, sadolite wrote:At 1/16/2014 11:45:33 PM, Juan_Pablo wrote:Sadolite, did you read my first post? I said quantitatively it's the same thing. It's not the same thing qualitatively, however.It is pointlessNo, I mean something significant with this. Let me give you an example.Let's say two people have a dollar in their pocket and only a dollar. One has a dollar bill and the other has a dollar in change, which includes a quarter.Now both of these people want a gum ball at the gum ball machine in their local store; it requires a quarter to get one. The man with the dollar bill cannot get a gum with what he has - unless he gets change.The man with the dollar in change, which includes a quarter, can get a gum ball.This is actually what I mean with my first post in this thread. Just because quantitatively two formulations can equal 2, not all formulations are identical! This has real merit and real consequences in the our world, as I've just shown to you with this example.I believe this type of issue is playing a role in the weird, scientific field of quantum mechanics!IS this what they teach in schools today? The study of the blatantly obvious.Beware of the people who are in your circle but are not in your corner. And with the stroke of a pen people 18 to 21 who own a gun became criminals and public enemy #1 having committed no crime and having said nothing. Just like the Jews in Germany during WW2. Must be a weird feeling. When I hear people crying and whining about their first world problems I think about the universe with everything in it and people in wheelchairs and all of their problems go away.