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Pedophilia, Incest and Open Relationships

AnonymousDebate1
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2/25/2014 8:13:41 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Hello everyone,

This is my first time posting on something like this, and I do so only because I require some help in the form of unbiased debate. My girlfriend and I have come to a potential turning point in our relationship, and what is discussed here may help save it, or not.
So first off, thank you for your time.

Here's the context - I have long been very controversial and progressive in my beliefs and opinions. I like to research everything I can and back up my opinions with evidence. I always hold the right to change my mind should new evidence persuade me.
Throughout my nearly ten-year relationship with my girlfriend, I have always pushed the boundaries when it came to things like the legalisation of drugs, feminism etc. I have often changed her mind on things - mainly as a result that she has been brought up to believe things are wrong, and then through fact and evidence, I will manage to change her mind. This also works the other way; sometimes she will argue that my arguments are too logical and derive no emotion (I'm "cold" is often something she will say).

In this case, I have been formulating my views for some years now, but never had the courage to truly express them, for fear that this very situation may arise and that I may be ridiculed for my opinions. However, the topic has been breached, and now she is saying she will leave me (even thought this will be devastating for her career, financial situation and general self esteem - she admits this freely herself, not a misogynistic view on my part).

I have been arguing that Pedophilia is not necessarily child abuse, and that children should be introduced to sexuality from a much younger age. As with the liberalisation of sexuality and drugs in places such as Amsterdam, the more liberal you become, the lower the rate of crime, STD's, rape, teenage pregnancies etc. And you cannot argue that it is solely a selfish act - children garner pleasure from sexual stimulation too, they can even orgasm. The fact that society seemingly doesn't want to accept this is more harmful than not.
I argue that a large proportion of problems that arise from 'non-violent' child abuse are a result of society condemning said action, and not from the action itself (source: The Trauma Myth by Susan Clancy). The very act of saying it is wrong (although no one has necessarily been harmed) makes the child believe it is wrong, causing the slew of problems that arise in them as an adult - such as depression, mental disorders etc.
In terms of incest, I breached the possibility that it is not inherently wrong, assuming no harm comes to anyone. This would mean no procreation, but as a species, I think we can agree that sex has evolved to the point where we don't always have sex to procreate, instead we do it because it feels good (and all the other medical benefits it can have for your body).
As for open relationships, I believe sex and love are not bound to each other, nor should they be. I believe a relationship in which consensual extra-marital sex strengthens the bond between the partners, as long as they trust each other and love each other all the same. I understand it's not for everyone, but there are far more benefits than not if you can put aside the jealousy, which I am happily able to do.

Why this has caused such a divide between us though is because of the hypothetical situations I am presenting to her.
These are:
- If my male or female child asked me to show them how to masturbate (anywhere from the age of around 5 and upwards depending on their level of maturity), I would tell them.
- I they then asked me to help them, I would explain why it is perceived socially as a negative and what harm can come from it, but also how I think it is OK, and if they still want me to help them, then I would.
- If my 16 year old daughter wanted to instigate a sexual relationship and I (for some reason, despite the Westermarck Effect) wanted to engage in such a relationship, as long as I was open about it with my girlfriend/wife, I don't see why it should be a problem, with the knowledge that the love for my wife is no less diminished by the fact I have a sexual relationship with my daughter.

My main problem here is the issue of harm. In all of these cases, no harm is being done to any party involved, aside from my girlfriend's sensibilities. In fact, having such an open and healthy view on sexuality in children can only benefit them.

My girlfriend wants me to compromise on my beliefs here, however I feel that would not be morally acceptable, as I feel my opinions are backed by fact and logic, and hers merely by emotion and breeding. However much I love her and don't want to lose her, would it be better for us to find more like-minded partners on this issue? (Part of the trouble here is that we love each other so, so much and agree on literally everything else)

For the people out there that are disgusted by these views, I'd draw a parallel to the social climate say, two hundred years ago. Back then, homosexuality was generally seen with the same disgust as these issues are today, however, I'd be willing to bet you think homosexuality is perfectly acceptable today, mainly because it is causing no-one any harm, and actually doing a lot of people a lot of good. I believe this could be the same regarding these issues in the future.

Any and all facts/opinions are welcome. Any advice on how/if we can/should resolve this would be greatly appreciated. Thank you so much for your time and your thoughts.

Anon

(I have had my girlfriend look over this post and accept it as a reasonable presentation of both our opinions, however, she has also said whatever arguments are brought forth by this debate, she will not change her mind.)
Oryus
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2/25/2014 8:50:35 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
This is pretty damn interesting.

While I agree with your logic and facts- yes, even down to the pedophilia/trauma aspect, I think you have to still acknowledge that we do live in that society that does not accept this kind of thing- like helping a child learn to masturbate by touching them. And for many children who have had this kind of trauma happen to them- the only person who assured them it was ok and normal was the adult that did it. So from the police's and society's perspective, what you would be doing would still be child abuse. You'd be considered no different from any other adult who engaged in non-consensual sexual activities with a minor.

I would wager that even if you did teach the kid despite all of that, by touching them, it is not a part of our culture and thus would still feel odd and traumatic to them. That kind of change can't just happen with one parent- it has to be a cultural norm for it to not cause trauma- at the very least it must be a norm in a subculture you are part of.

Aside from that, it sounds like you love your girlfriend a lot, and clearly you've been together a while, so.....

which future do you want more?

A.) the ability to live 100% in line with your own values which are very counterculture, despite the fact that you may be alone a while or forever (because what are the odds that you will meet somebody who is 100% like you?),

B.) or the ability to live a happy life starting a family with your girlfriend?

To me, it seems obvious that your girlfriend is more important than this debate. There are plenty of ways to talk to your kids about sexuality that won't disturb your girlfriend or land you in jail. Relationships are all about compromise- so what do you think the odds are that you will find someone 100% in line with your values? You'd have to be pretty damn lucky... Sounds like you're pretty lucky already. Most people would probably be disgusted right off the bat. The incest taboo is the most widely held across all societies.

Anyway, hope that helps the discussion.
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DollyLlama
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2/25/2014 9:28:48 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/25/2014 8:13:41 PM, AnonymousDebate1 wrote:
...
I have been arguing that Pedophilia is not necessarily child abuse, and that children should be introduced to sexuality from a much younger age. As with the liberalisation of sexuality and drugs in places such as Amsterdam, the more liberal you become, the lower the rate of crime, STD's, rape, teenage pregnancies etc. And you cannot argue that it is solely a selfish act - children garner pleasure from sexual stimulation too, they can even orgasm. The fact that society seemingly doesn't want to accept this is more harmful than not.
...
Why this has caused such a divide between us though is because of the hypothetical situations I am presenting to her.
These are:
- If my male or female child asked me to show them how to masturbate (anywhere from the age of around 5 and upwards depending on their level of maturity), I would tell them.
- I they then asked me to help them, I would explain why it is perceived socially as a negative and what harm can come from it, but also how I think it is OK, and if they still want me to help them, then I would.
- If my 16 year old daughter wanted to instigate a sexual relationship and I (for some reason, despite the Westermarck Effect) wanted to engage in such a relationship, as long as I was open about it with my girlfriend/wife, I don't see why it should be a problem, with the knowledge that the love for my wife is no less diminished by the fact I have a sexual relationship with my daughter.
...
For the people out there that are disgusted by these views, I'd draw a parallel to the social climate say, two hundred years ago. Back then, homosexuality was generally seen with the same disgust as these issues are today, however, I'd be willing to bet you think homosexuality is perfectly acceptable today, mainly because it is causing no-one any harm, and actually doing a lot of people a lot of good. I believe this could be the same regarding these issues in the future.

Hey Anon. I'm just going to go down the list of quotes I have set up for you, and please keep in mind I'm being as completely unbiased here as possible.

Pedophilia may or may not be child abuse, with its definition being "sexual feelings or activities that involve children". Sexual feelings and thoughts of a child are one thing; they are kept to one's self without anyone knowing, or people knowing that would not be affected by this knowledge. Sexual activities, however, are another matter. Would you agree with me when I say that a child cannot think rationally? No parent wants to introduce their child too early to sex for good reasoning. If a child gets curious about sex, they may want to experience it, especially with the motivation that it's an "adult" thing to do. Children may want to do sexual things simply because they know their parents do, even if they haven't developed any thoughts or opinions or feelings about boundaries about their personal space and the rights another person has to that body and- going along with boundaries- what exactly those rights are. If an adult is actually asking a child to partake in these sexual activities (or maybe persuading or forcing), the child, if not educated already to try to keep their own body safe, may and typically do follow the adult's request/order because they're still learning about the world and will trust an adult when an adult tells them something simply because they are an adult. What sets you apart from a child, mentally? It is the fact that you can use the things you were taught and your own experiences and thoughts to reason why you are doing something, when a child who is experiencing something for the first time can only decide what they're doing is right or wrong based on someone else who's telling them. Children cannot think rationally yet about sexual matters because of their lack of experience, and so it is child abuse because of an adult taking advantage of their trusting qualities and naivety to have their way with them. If you look at a case where Person A rapes Person B- Person B may not consent at the beginning, nor at the very end, but their body will still function as it is programmed to do and will orgasm when stimulated enough.

As for open relationships and incest, it is perfectly logical that, as long as both people are consenting to the relationship they are entering or the sexual activities they're going to engage in, it should not be considered taboo.

Back onto the hypothetical situations: if your child came to you asking to masturbate, it is probably not for the same reason you masturbate. Children that young do not need a sexual outlet; if they came to you asking how to masturbate, they probably had heard it from someone else and was curious about it. Though it's not necessarily morally wrong to teach your child if they came asking you, there's no telling who your child might talk to about it if you did not properly teach them that such activities were to be kept private out of politeness and professionalism. Incest is fine, but you wouldn't go around telling people you just had sex with your sister for the same reason you don't go around telling people you just had sex with your girlfriend (as well as other reasons).

Moving on- if your child was at an age where they could think reasonably about their situation and what boundaries they had in which situations and still wanted to engage in a consenting sexual relationship with you, that would also be fine going by logic. Still, it would be best to take your daughter to a psychologist to make absolute sure that she was consenting as a rational adult would consent to sex with another adult, and not because of some daughter-father insecurity bred from bad communications as a child or some such problem

To wrap this up, homosexuality was seen as a bad thing, but mainly because of religion. That was the source of people's prejudiced feelings against homosexuality and still is today, no matter how much people try to justify it with other "sound" reasons, but pedophilia is a different matter. A child cannot think reasonably like an adult, which is why children mature throughout life. They'd show bad judgment, just like someone consenting to sex when they're drunk or high.
Sidewalker
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2/26/2014 4:53:28 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
My vote - Your girlfriend should leave you.
"It is one of the commonest of mistakes to consider that the limit of our power of perception is also the limit of all there is to perceive." " C. W. Leadbeater
Noumena
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2/26/2014 4:56:21 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/26/2014 4:53:28 PM, Sidewalker wrote:
My vote - Your girlfriend should leave you.

Probs. if a potential husband/father says he'd have no problem jerking off my/his kid that's a deal breaker.
: At 5/13/2014 7:05:20 PM, Crescendo wrote:
: The difference is that the gay movement is currently pushing their will on Churches, as shown in the link to gay marriage in Denmark. Meanwhile, the Inquisition ended several centuries ago.
Rational_Thinker9119
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2/26/2014 5:08:48 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Well, Ironically, the logic here is off. Therefore, it is funny that the poster says this view is based on logic. First of all, as far as incest is concerned, I agree. There is no harm done. However, I disagree with incest without some type of concrete birth control, as children that are the product of incest are known to have problems. As far as the pedophile thing, this is what I have an issue with. First of all, the obvious response to this type of argument given by the OP is that children are not rational enough to reasonably consent, even if they "want it", and say they do (which is almost unheard of, every child I know of that was molested, the child wasn't asking for it, as the child is too young to have sexual feelings).
bubbatheclown
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2/26/2014 5:12:24 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
You see?! I told you people that somebody's eventually going to find a way to justify Pedophilia and Incest!
It'll only be a few decades or a few years before Anon's ideas become mainstream.
Rational_Thinker9119
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2/26/2014 5:15:07 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/26/2014 5:12:24 PM, bubbatheclown wrote:
You see?! I told you people that somebody's eventually going to find a way to justify Pedophilia and Incest!
It'll only be a few decades or a few years before Anon's ideas become mainstream.

No it won't be (at least not for pedophilia), because the logic is off. The logic justifying homosexuality is sound, as it involves two adults rational enough to make adult (sexual) choices. However, with having sex with animals and children, you don't have this rational consent. Thus, it will never be accepted.

Incest will be though, eventually.
Iredia
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2/26/2014 6:28:49 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
@ Anonymousdebater: Interesting. Since you are OK with gay rights, feminism, legalizing weed etc. Arguing for incest, pedophilia, bestophila etc isn't surprising coming from you; it's expected.
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Rational_Thinker9119
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2/26/2014 6:30:38 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/26/2014 6:28:49 PM, Iredia wrote:
@ Anonymousdebater: Interesting. Since you are OK with gay rights, feminism, legalizing weed etc. Arguing for incest, pedophilia, bestophila etc isn't surprising coming from you; it's expected.

No, its not expected, as there are different categories all together involved.
Iredia
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2/26/2014 6:35:43 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/26/2014 6:30:38 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 2/26/2014 6:28:49 PM, Iredia wrote:
@ Anonymousdebater: Interesting. Since you are OK with gay rights, feminism, legalizing weed etc. Arguing for incest, pedophilia, bestophila etc isn't surprising coming from you; it's expected.

No, its not expected, as there are different categories all together involved.

That is your POV not mine and that's all that matters.
Porn babes be distracting me. Dudes be stealing me stuff. I'm all about the cash from now. I'm not playing Jesus anymore.
Sidewalker
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2/26/2014 6:54:05 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/26/2014 4:56:21 PM, Noumena wrote:
At 2/26/2014 4:53:28 PM, Sidewalker wrote:
My vote - Your girlfriend should leave you.

Probs. if a potential husband/father says he'd have no problem jerking off my/his kid that's a deal breaker.

Ya think?

Even if that doesn't do it, let's not forget example #2, he'd also have sex with his 16 year old daughter.
"It is one of the commonest of mistakes to consider that the limit of our power of perception is also the limit of all there is to perceive." " C. W. Leadbeater
Sidewalker
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2/26/2014 7:01:55 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/26/2014 5:08:48 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Well, Ironically, the logic here is off.

For once I agree with RT.

There is no logic, no medical or psychiatric study, no statistical inference, no known compilation of experiential data, no evidence whatsoever, that supports the validity of his conclusions.

I hope the girlfriend bitch slaps him, and then leaves.
"It is one of the commonest of mistakes to consider that the limit of our power of perception is also the limit of all there is to perceive." " C. W. Leadbeater
Sidewalker
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2/26/2014 7:04:59 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/26/2014 6:28:49 PM, Iredia wrote:
@ Anonymousdebater: Interesting. Since you are OK with gay rights, feminism, legalizing weed etc. Arguing for incest, pedophilia, bestophila etc isn't surprising coming from you; it's expected.

Egads, you're equating gay rights, feminism, and catching a buzz...with pedophilia?

Is there a full moon tonight or what?
"It is one of the commonest of mistakes to consider that the limit of our power of perception is also the limit of all there is to perceive." " C. W. Leadbeater
Sidewalker
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2/26/2014 7:11:42 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/26/2014 6:30:38 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 2/26/2014 6:28:49 PM, Iredia wrote:
@ Anonymousdebater: Interesting. Since you are OK with gay rights, feminism, legalizing weed etc. Arguing for incest, pedophilia, bestophila etc isn't surprising coming from you; it's expected.

No, its not expected, as there are different categories all together involved.

Holy crap, I agree with RT twice in one day? Yikes.

I keep thinking this thread can't get any weirder and it just keeps on happening. I just pinched myself, I'm awake...hmmmm.

I'd think I was having an acid flashback, but I never did acid....maybe I will some day and it's an acid flashforward.
"It is one of the commonest of mistakes to consider that the limit of our power of perception is also the limit of all there is to perceive." " C. W. Leadbeater
Iredia
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2/26/2014 7:37:43 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/26/2014 7:04:59 PM, Sidewalker wrote:
At 2/26/2014 6:28:49 PM, Iredia wrote:
@ Anonymousdebater: Interesting. Since you are OK with gay rights, feminism, legalizing weed etc. Arguing for incest, pedophilia, bestophila etc isn't surprising coming from you; it's expected.

Egads, you're equating gay rights, feminism, and catching a buzz...with pedophilia?

Is there a full moon tonight or what?

If you are too dumb to see that I actually extrapolated not equated between the two categories; then you aren't worth taking seriously.
Porn babes be distracting me. Dudes be stealing me stuff. I'm all about the cash from now. I'm not playing Jesus anymore.
Sswdwm
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2/26/2014 7:45:27 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/26/2014 6:30:38 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 2/26/2014 6:28:49 PM, Iredia wrote:
@ Anonymousdebater: Interesting. Since you are OK with gay rights, feminism, legalizing weed etc. Arguing for incest, pedophilia, bestophila etc isn't surprising coming from you; it's expected.

No, its not expected, as there are different categories all together involved.

It annoys me that I have to agree with you....

Pedophilia has a number of issues, which include:
1.) Ability of child to understand & rationally consent
2.) Long Term mental impact of younger people
3.) Sociological impact if it were deemed acceptable
4.) Undermines the integrity of 'positions of trust' (teachers etc.)

To name a few, and all 3 of those points have extensive case-study and psychological understanding which pretty much conclusively shows a generally very large negative impact.
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Sidewalker
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2/26/2014 7:48:53 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/26/2014 7:37:43 PM, Iredia wrote:
At 2/26/2014 7:04:59 PM, Sidewalker wrote:
At 2/26/2014 6:28:49 PM, Iredia wrote:
@ Anonymousdebater: Interesting. Since you are OK with gay rights, feminism, legalizing weed etc. Arguing for incest, pedophilia, bestophila etc isn't surprising coming from you; it's expected.

Egads, you're equating gay rights, feminism, and catching a buzz...with pedophilia?

Is there a full moon tonight or what?

If you are too dumb to see that I actually extrapolated not equated between the two categories; then you aren't worth taking seriously.

Please, I beg you, don't take me seriously then.

Better yet, here's a suggestion, go catch a buzz, maybe it will help you lighten up a little.
"It is one of the commonest of mistakes to consider that the limit of our power of perception is also the limit of all there is to perceive." " C. W. Leadbeater
Sidewalker
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2/26/2014 8:04:02 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/25/2014 8:13:41 PM, AnonymousDebate1 wrote:

However, the topic has been breached, and now she is saying she will leave me (even thought this will be devastating for her career, financial situation and general self esteem - she admits this freely herself, not a misogynistic view on my part).

How is leaving you going to ruin her career?

Are you her pimp?
"It is one of the commonest of mistakes to consider that the limit of our power of perception is also the limit of all there is to perceive." " C. W. Leadbeater
zmikecuber
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2/26/2014 9:32:22 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/26/2014 5:15:07 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 2/26/2014 5:12:24 PM, bubbatheclown wrote:
You see?! I told you people that somebody's eventually going to find a way to justify Pedophilia and Incest!
It'll only be a few decades or a few years before Anon's ideas become mainstream.

No it won't be (at least not for pedophilia), because the logic is off. The logic justifying homosexuality is sound, as it involves two adults rational enough to make adult (sexual) choices. However, with having sex with animals and children, you don't have this rational consent. Thus, it will never be accepted.


We force children to go to school, and all kinds of other things. Why not pedophilia? It's a mutual relationship actually. The man is a guardian and teacher to the child, and the child provides the man with love and sex. It was widely accepted in Ancient Greece, and was seen as beneficial for both.

Not saying I agree with what I'm saying, but yeah...

Incest will be though, eventually.
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"primal man had the habit, when he came into contact with fire, of satisfying the infantile desire connected with it, by putting it out with a stream of his urine... Putting out the fire by micturating was therefore a kind of sexual act with a male, an enjoyment of sexual potency in a homosexual competition."
zmikecuber
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2/26/2014 9:41:32 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/25/2014 8:13:41 PM, AnonymousDebate1 wrote:
Hello everyone,

This is my first time posting on something like this, and I do so only because I require some help in the form of unbiased debate. My girlfriend and I have come to a potential turning point in our relationship, and what is discussed here may help save it, or not.
So first off, thank you for your time.

Here's the context - I have long been very controversial and progressive in my beliefs and opinions. I like to research everything I can and back up my opinions with evidence. I always hold the right to change my mind should new evidence persuade me.
Throughout my nearly ten-year relationship with my girlfriend, I have always pushed the boundaries when it came to things like the legalisation of drugs, feminism etc. I have often changed her mind on things - mainly as a result that she has been brought up to believe things are wrong, and then through fact and evidence, I will manage to change her mind. This also works the other way; sometimes she will argue that my arguments are too logical and derive no emotion (I'm "cold" is often something she will say).

In this case, I have been formulating my views for some years now, but never had the courage to truly express them, for fear that this very situation may arise and that I may be ridiculed for my opinions. However, the topic has been breached, and now she is saying she will leave me (even thought this will be devastating for her career, financial situation and general self esteem - she admits this freely herself, not a misogynistic view on my part).


I don't mean to be a jerk, but yes, I think she should break up with you.

I have been arguing that Pedophilia is not necessarily child abuse, and that children should be introduced to sexuality from a much younger age. As with the liberalisation of sexuality and drugs in places such as Amsterdam, the more liberal you become, the lower the rate of crime, STD's, rape, teenage pregnancies etc. And you cannot argue that it is solely a selfish act - children garner pleasure from sexual stimulation too, they can even orgasm. The fact that society seemingly doesn't want to accept this is more harmful than not.
I argue that a large proportion of problems that arise from 'non-violent' child abuse are a result of society condemning said action, and not from the action itself (source: The Trauma Myth by Susan Clancy). The very act of saying it is wrong (although no one has necessarily been harmed) makes the child believe it is wrong, causing the slew of problems that arise in them as an adult - such as depression, mental disorders etc.
In terms of incest, I breached the possibility that it is not inherently wrong, assuming no harm comes to anyone. This would mean no procreation, but as a species, I think we can agree that sex has evolved to the point where we don't always have sex to procreate, instead we do it because it feels good (and all the other medical benefits it can have for your body).
As for open relationships, I believe sex and love are not bound to each other, nor should they be. I believe a relationship in which consensual extra-marital sex strengthens the bond between the partners, as long as they trust each other and love each other all the same. I understand it's not for everyone, but there are far more benefits than not if you can put aside the jealousy, which I am happily able to do.

Why this has caused such a divide between us though is because of the hypothetical situations I am presenting to her.
These are:
- If my male or female child asked me to show them how to masturbate (anywhere from the age of around 5 and upwards depending on their level of maturity), I would tell them.
- I they then asked me to help them, I would explain why it is perceived socially as a negative and what harm can come from it, but also how I think it is OK, and if they still want me to help them, then I would.
- If my 16 year old daughter wanted to instigate a sexual relationship and I (for some reason, despite the Westermarck Effect) wanted to engage in such a relationship, as long as I was open about it with my girlfriend/wife, I don't see why it should be a problem, with the knowledge that the love for my wife is no less diminished by the fact I have a sexual relationship with my daughter.

My main problem here is the issue of harm. In all of these cases, no harm is being done to any party involved, aside from my girlfriend's sensibilities. In fact, having such an open and healthy view on sexuality in children can only benefit them.

My girlfriend wants me to compromise on my beliefs here, however I feel that would not be morally acceptable, as I feel my opinions are backed by fact and logic, and hers merely by emotion and breeding. However much I love her and don't want to lose her, would it be better for us to find more like-minded partners on this issue? (Part of the trouble here is that we love each other so, so much and agree on literally everything else)

For the people out there that are disgusted by these views, I'd draw a parallel to the social climate say, two hundred years ago. Back then, homosexuality was generally seen with the same disgust as these issues are today, however, I'd be willing to bet you think homosexuality is perfectly acceptable today, mainly because it is causing no-one any harm, and actually doing a lot of people a lot of good. I believe this could be the same regarding these issues in the future.


No, I don't. I think any use of sexual functions outside of a procreative nature is immoral. That means masturbation, pornography, homosexuality, blow jobs to orgasm, etc. are immoral in my view.

Any and all facts/opinions are welcome. Any advice on how/if we can/should resolve this would be greatly appreciated. Thank you so much for your time and your thoughts.

Anon

(I have had my girlfriend look over this post and accept it as a reasonable presentation of both our opinions, however, she has also said whatever arguments are brought forth by this debate, she will not change her mind.)

Here's the thing... with sexual morality, you have the draw the line somewhere. Either that sexual actions outside of a procreative nature, or just between a man and a woman, or with consent, etc. Otherwise, there's always going to be people on the other side of the fence saying "But what about me? I like to have sex with children!!"

So yeah. I think you need to draw the line somewhere if you're going to draw it at all. Most people nowadays draw the line with consent. Of course I disagree with them, but at least they draw the line somewhere.

Unless you're a moral anti-realist in the sexual area. In which case, I don't see much of a point of posting this int he first place... :P
"Delete your fvcking sig" -1hard

"primal man had the habit, when he came into contact with fire, of satisfying the infantile desire connected with it, by putting it out with a stream of his urine... Putting out the fire by micturating was therefore a kind of sexual act with a male, an enjoyment of sexual potency in a homosexual competition."
Iredia
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2/27/2014 5:43:07 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
@ zmikecuber: Catholic, I presume. I want to know whether you disallow any sex for pleasure or you only allow for sexual pleasure where there is a possibility of procreation.
Porn babes be distracting me. Dudes be stealing me stuff. I'm all about the cash from now. I'm not playing Jesus anymore.
tulle
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2/27/2014 8:18:21 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
If your 5 year old wanted to know what it felt like to get high and drunk, would you help them along with that too? The problem here, as others have pointed out, is you think your opinions are backed my facts and logic.
yang.
tulle
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2/27/2014 8:31:03 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
The people I've talked to who were sexually abused as children are always left with a sense of shame and that it was "their fault", as well as confusion about why it happened--I can't imagine how your children would feel as adults, with every message in society saying that what you did was wrong. They'll look back on their childhood interactions with you through the lens of a kid who was abused, whether you like it or not...

I will give the link you posted a look later on and see what that says.
yang.
YYW
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2/27/2014 8:37:39 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/27/2014 8:18:21 AM, tulle wrote:
If your 5 year old wanted to know what it felt like to get high and drunk, would you help them along with that too? The problem here, as others have pointed out, is you think your opinions are backed my facts and logic.

I completely agree.
Tsar of DDO
zmikecuber
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2/27/2014 8:41:52 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/27/2014 5:43:07 AM, Iredia wrote:
@ zmikecuber: Catholic, I presume. I want to know whether you disallow any sex for pleasure or you only allow for sexual pleasure where there is a possibility of procreation.

There's no problem with sex for pleasure. In fact there's nothing wrong if you're having sex primarily for pleasure, and having kids is the last thing on your mind. All that matters to me is that it ends up in a procreative nature.
"Delete your fvcking sig" -1hard

"primal man had the habit, when he came into contact with fire, of satisfying the infantile desire connected with it, by putting it out with a stream of his urine... Putting out the fire by micturating was therefore a kind of sexual act with a male, an enjoyment of sexual potency in a homosexual competition."
ADreamOfLiberty
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3/1/2014 4:38:53 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/25/2014 8:13:41 PM, AnonymousDebate1 wrote:
sometimes she will argue that my arguments are too logical and derive no emotion (I'm "cold" is often something she will say).

Yea, when you're biased and angry they say you an angry bigot. When you aren't they call you a psychopath. We all have the ability to get emotional, few of us have the ability (or so it would seem) to keep it out of the search for true knowledge. If you can do that hold on for dear life.

While I may not agree with what you are about to say, I want to express my esteem for having the basic courage of challenging preconceptions, especially those most people fear to allow into the arena of serious debate.

I have been arguing that Pedophilia is not necessarily child abuse, and that children should be introduced to sexuality from a much younger age.

First off you may want to give a definition for pedophilia. Some say it's confined to children who are not yet sexually mature. Others say under the age of majority.

I think children should be warned before it happens to them, but certainly no sexual contact before they are sexually mature and can demonstrate an understanding of the risks (which as the case may be, negligible).

As with the liberalisation of sexuality and drugs in places such as Amsterdam, the more liberal you become, the lower the rate of crime, STD's, rape, teenage pregnancies etc.

I can't think of any better way to deal with potentially risky things than the way my parents dealt with alcohol. They told me it was dangerous in significant quantities, but they let me try it (at 9 I think).

No 'forbidden fruit' crap, no secret that no one is willing to talk about. Just another thing in life which you got to watch out for but which can be nice if you're careful. I truly believe the exact same strategy would work for sex, especially since these days kids seems to know about it long before they're ready to do it anyway.

And you cannot argue that it is solely a selfish act - children garner pleasure from sexual stimulation too, they can even orgasm.

Again this depends heavily on just what age you are going down to. Nature obviously intended humans to start having sex at about 13 years old. This was seen by our ancestors as an obvious point to allow marriage (and all that entails).

Unfortunately they also thought parents should keep making decisions for their children after 13. So you get arranged marriages, which can obviously cause serious social conflict if they don't work out.

The fact that society seemingly doesn't want to accept this is more harmful than not.

They're afraid because they can't imagine a set of laws that would keep people from kidnapping and raping children except the ones they've got now. One of the things they don't realize is that one of the primary reasons pedophiles can get away with it is the fact that they get to be the ones to introduce sex to the kids. They turn it into 'their little secret' and frighten them with promises of shame (which aren't too far from the truth).

If children felt comfortable saying "hey Mom this old perv is hitting on me." I suspect we'd be in a much better position.

I argue that a large proportion of problems that arise from 'non-violent' child abuse are a result of society condemning said action, and not from the action itself (source: The Trauma Myth by Susan Clancy).

I think you're absolutely correct. Lest we forget, we saw the exact same pattern (to varying degrees) for a multitude of forbidden behaviors in the past.

The important part is that they are told they were taken advantage of. When someone tells them "you have nothing to be ashamed of" they know enough to see they wouldn't say that unless there was a presumption of shame.

The nail in the coffin is actually a lack of expected evidence from the greco-roman period. We know there was extensive pedophilia going on... we know there were wise philosophers and thinkers who wrote extensive commentaries on sexual practices and their pros and cons.

Yet none of these mentioned wide spread psychological harm. Surely such a thing could not have escaped their attention. Thus we are left with two possibilities. They intentionally ignored it or.... it didn't exist because the children saw it as a normal part of growing up or being an apprentice. No shame, no fear.

The very act of saying it is wrong (although no one has necessarily been harmed) makes the child believe it is wrong, causing the slew of problems that arise in them as an adult - such as depression, mental disorders etc.

Exactly, I've seen what that kind of social condemnation can do to a child with zoosexuals who come out to their parents, teachers, friends at a young age and are told they're sick. They stay zoosexuals of course, but they have life time issues with depression, thoughts of suicide, anti-social behavior. It's horrible.

I read an early report on homosexuality done on psychiatric patients in prison. Got the definite impression that something similar was happening.

In terms of incest, I breached the possibility that it is not inherently wrong, assuming no harm comes to anyone. This would mean no procreation, but as a species, I think we can agree that sex has evolved to the point where we don't always have sex to procreate, instead we do it because it feels good (and all the other medical benefits it can have for your body).

As for open relationships, I believe sex and love are not bound to each other, nor should they be. I believe a relationship in which consensual extra-marital sex strengthens the bond between the partners, as long as they trust each other and love each other all the same.

At this point, I'm wondering if you read my manifesto :p
LOL, yeah, it's pretty amazing how they think they can "reason" with you. - Sidewalker, speaking of advocates for sexual deviancy.

So, my advice, Liberty, is to go somewhere else. Leave, and never come back. - YYW

And that's what I did. Contact me at http://www.edeb8.com... by the same user name if you have anything you'd like to say.
ADreamOfLiberty
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3/1/2014 4:48:43 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
if you can put aside the jealousy, which I am happily able to do.

Jealousy is an emotion I have rarely felt and never about sex. I suppose it makes it hard for me to empathize with people who do feel it.

Why this has caused such a divide between us though is because of the hypothetical situations I am presenting to her.
These are:

- If my male or female child asked me to show them how to masturbate (anywhere from the age of around 5 and upwards depending on their level of maturity), I would tell them.

At age five they couldn't do it, but I would tell them as well.

A poster (here) Citrakayah said it perfectly: "The mind of those who "slut-shame" is rooted in a primitive mentality where sex is something to be regarded as something fearful and shameful, rather than a perfectly natural part of life that also happens to provide a great deal of fun."

My best hypothesis for why people end up like this is simple: If their parents show fear and shame when confronted with sex, so will they. They will carry it with them into adult hood if they're unlucky and even when they conquer their fear in regards to normal sexual relations it will remain towards all deviancy. Hence the nearly ubiquitous fear-hate-disgust response that exists unless it is socially conditioned out later.

- I they then asked me to help them, I would explain why it is perceived socially as a negative and what harm can come from it, but also how I think it is OK, and if they still want me to help them, then I would.

If they can masturbate this is not a prepubescent child... If it were me I would tell them they don't need help, if they insist I would offer to buy a sex toy; if they still insist on my presence (but not contact)... ok maybe they're scared or something. I draw the line at physically helping them, not because I think it would fry their brain because it's sex or something but that kind of dependance is unhealthy. I mean I stopped giving this kid a bath a while ago right?

- If my 16 year old daughter wanted to instigate a sexual relationship and I (for some reason, despite the Westermarck Effect) wanted to engage in such a relationship, as long as I was open about it with my girlfriend/wife, I don't see why it should be a problem, with the knowledge that the love for my wife is no less diminished by the fact I have a sexual relationship with my daughter.

Well you need to make sure isn't going to blame you later. When people are told they weren't competent to decide, they may *under certain circumstances* believe it if it gives them an excuse.

My main problem here is the issue of harm. In all of these cases, no harm is being done to any party involved, aside from my girlfriend's sensibilities. In fact, having such an open and healthy view on sexuality in children can only benefit them.

Well even at 16 the same effect discussed above may apply. When someone turns 18, it's over. They know there is no one to whine to about regretting decisions you make (even about sex). No one who is going to say "it's not your fault he made you" (even if he didn't).

Under 18 incest, if they have the slightest reason to regret what they did with you it could blow up in every sense possible. i.e. She could convince herself that you took advantage of her, feel guilty, feel betrayed, call the cops, get you blacklisted if not imprisoned, etc.

That is my (only) problem with pedophilia in the current culture, it may not necessarily go wrong; but if it does the effects can be really disproportionally bad. No matter how much you confirm with the kid that they want it (and they most certainly do consent at the time) society is going to tell them they don't have to live with that decision because someone it was forced upon them. Once they accept that premise they will see it as forced and all the psychological TNT goes off.

The same thing would happen if society said the same thing about women who just got a divorce, or men who just got back from a combat deployment. It's not an intrinsic problem, but it is walking on the edge of a knife compared to more normal relationships; so you had best be very sure of your balance (the mutual trust with the person in question). You need to be sure she'd laugh out loud at the suggestion she was coerced, which is perhaps impossible.

Saying "no" may hurt her too, but unlike saying "yes" she will certainly understand why you said it and know you had her best interests at heart.

My girlfriend wants me to compromise on my beliefs here, however I feel that would not be morally acceptable, as I feel my opinions are backed by fact and logic, and hers merely by emotion and breeding.

Listen to me AnonymousDebate1 (and I don't care if somebody accuses you of being me after this), when I think of the society I want to live in. It's populated by people like you. People who say things like that in as they're falling asleep and when they rise in the morning.

Compromise on nothing you believe unless you find a good reason to change your beliefs, but if she wants you to agree to raise your children in a certain way I say give in. It won't be easy to find a good woman who would say anything else.

However much I love her and don't want to lose her, would it be better for us to find more like-minded partners on this issue? (Part of the trouble here is that we love each other so, so much and agree on literally everything else)

I'm saying this even though I'm sure you already know. There are finite number of people you can meet and get to know before you're beyond child-bearing age.

The chances that you will find someone whom you love, who loves you, and is compatible on so many levels while still agreeing with you on pedophilia and incest are very small.

Most parents have to compromise with each other on how they raise their children, don't hold out for a miracle.

For the people out there that are disgusted by these views, I'd draw a parallel to the social climate say, two hundred years ago. Back then, homosexuality was generally seen with the same disgust as these issues are today, however, I'd be willing to bet you think homosexuality is perfectly acceptable today, mainly because it is causing no-one any harm, and actually doing a lot of people a lot of good. I believe this could be the same regarding these issues in the future.

Until then they are going to stay firmly within their narrow delusion of socially defined decency. I tell you most of them can't even imagine what homosexuals went through forty years ago or they would be a lot more careful what they think and say.

(I have had my girlfriend look over this post and accept it as a reasonable presentation of both our opinions, however, she has also said whatever arguments are brought forth by this debate, she will not change her mind.)
What are her demands exactly?
LOL, yeah, it's pretty amazing how they think they can "reason" with you. - Sidewalker, speaking of advocates for sexual deviancy.

So, my advice, Liberty, is to go somewhere else. Leave, and never come back. - YYW

And that's what I did. Contact me at http://www.edeb8.com... by the same user name if you have anything you'd like to say.
ADreamOfLiberty
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3/1/2014 4:49:11 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/26/2014 5:15:07 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 2/26/2014 5:12:24 PM, bubbatheclown wrote:
You see?! I told you people that somebody's eventually going to find a way to justify Pedophilia and Incest!
It'll only be a few decades or a few years before Anon's ideas become mainstream.

No it won't be (at least not for pedophilia), because the logic is off. The logic justifying homosexuality is sound, as it involves two adults rational enough to make adult (sexual) choices. However, with having sex with animals and children, you don't have this rational consent. Thus, it will never be accepted.

You may have a reputation for being rational, but what you said is anything but. Animals having sex is accepted constantly, just not with humans. That is a fundamental difference from sexually immature children as concrete as any difference can be.

If people just giggled and looked away when their five year old children were pleasuring each other, then it would be the same situation.

You rely on a hidden premises, and I challenge them:

Why do adult (sexual) choices need to be rational choices? How can they be when reason is clearly not a natural requirement for sex?

What makes you think children cannot make rational decisions? Do you realize how young people can learn algebra? (And NO there is no way to go 'oh well algebra that doesn't mean they can be rational')
LOL, yeah, it's pretty amazing how they think they can "reason" with you. - Sidewalker, speaking of advocates for sexual deviancy.

So, my advice, Liberty, is to go somewhere else. Leave, and never come back. - YYW

And that's what I did. Contact me at http://www.edeb8.com... by the same user name if you have anything you'd like to say.
Fox-McCloud
Posts: 158
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3/1/2014 6:05:53 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/26/2014 9:41:32 PM, zmikecuber wrote:
At 2/25/2014 8:13:41 PM, AnonymousDebate1 wrote:
Hello everyone,

This is my first time posting on something like this, and I do so only because I require some help in the form of unbiased debate. My girlfriend and I have come to a potential turning point in our relationship, and what is discussed here may help save it, or not.
So first off, thank you for your time.

Here's the context - I have long been very controversial and progressive in my beliefs and opinions. I like to research everything I can and back up my opinions with evidence. I always hold the right to change my mind should new evidence persuade me.
Throughout my nearly ten-year relationship with my girlfriend, I have always pushed the boundaries when it came to things like the legalisation of drugs, feminism etc. I have often changed her mind on things - mainly as a result that she has been brought up to believe things are wrong, and then through fact and evidence, I will manage to change her mind. This also works the other way; sometimes she will argue that my arguments are too logical and derive no emotion (I'm "cold" is often something she will say).

In this case, I have been formulating my views for some years now, but never had the courage to truly express them, for fear that this very situation may arise and that I may be ridiculed for my opinions. However, the topic has been breached, and now she is saying she will leave me (even thought this will be devastating for her career, financial situation and general self esteem - she admits this freely herself, not a misogynistic view on my part).


I don't mean to be a jerk, but yes, I think she should break up with you.

I have been arguing that Pedophilia is not necessarily child abuse, and that children should be introduced to sexuality from a much younger age. As with the liberalisation of sexuality and drugs in places such as Amsterdam, the more liberal you become, the lower the rate of crime, STD's, rape, teenage pregnancies etc. And you cannot argue that it is solely a selfish act - children garner pleasure from sexual stimulation too, they can even orgasm. The fact that society seemingly doesn't want to accept this is more harmful than not.
I argue that a large proportion of problems that arise from 'non-violent' child abuse are a result of society condemning said action, and not from the action itself (source: The Trauma Myth by Susan Clancy). The very act of saying it is wrong (although no one has necessarily been harmed) makes the child believe it is wrong, causing the slew of problems that arise in them as an adult - such as depression, mental disorders etc.
In terms of incest, I breached the possibility that it is not inherently wrong, assuming no harm comes to anyone. This would mean no procreation, but as a species, I think we can agree that sex has evolved to the point where we don't always have sex to procreate, instead we do it because it feels good (and all the other medical benefits it can have for your body).
As for open relationships, I believe sex and love are not bound to each other, nor should they be. I believe a relationship in which consensual extra-marital sex strengthens the bond between the partners, as long as they trust each other and love each other all the same. I understand it's not for everyone, but there are far more benefits than not if you can put aside the jealousy, which I am happily able to do.

Why this has caused such a divide between us though is because of the hypothetical situations I am presenting to her.
These are:
- If my male or female child asked me to show them how to masturbate (anywhere from the age of around 5 and upwards depending on their level of maturity), I would tell them.
- I they then asked me to help them, I would explain why it is perceived socially as a negative and what harm can come from it, but also how I think it is OK, and if they still want me to help them, then I would.
- If my 16 year old daughter wanted to instigate a sexual relationship and I (for some reason, despite the Westermarck Effect) wanted to engage in such a relationship, as long as I was open about it with my girlfriend/wife, I don't see why it should be a problem, with the knowledge that the love for my wife is no less diminished by the fact I have a sexual relationship with my daughter.

My main problem here is the issue of harm. In all of these cases, no harm is being done to any party involved, aside from my girlfriend's sensibilities. In fact, having such an open and healthy view on sexuality in children can only benefit them.

My girlfriend wants me to compromise on my beliefs here, however I feel that would not be morally acceptable, as I feel my opinions are backed by fact and logic, and hers merely by emotion and breeding. However much I love her and don't want to lose her, would it be better for us to find more like-minded partners on this issue? (Part of the trouble here is that we love each other so, so much and agree on literally everything else)

For the people out there that are disgusted by these views, I'd draw a parallel to the social climate say, two hundred years ago. Back then, homosexuality was generally seen with the same disgust as these issues are today, however, I'd be willing to bet you think homosexuality is perfectly acceptable today, mainly because it is causing no-one any harm, and actually doing a lot of people a lot of good. I believe this could be the same regarding these issues in the future.


No, I don't. I think any use of sexual functions outside of a procreative nature is immoral. That means masturbation, pornography, homosexuality, blow jobs to orgasm, etc. are immoral in my view.

Would you care to elaborate?

Any and all facts/opinions are welcome. Any advice on how/if we can/should resolve this would be greatly appreciated. Thank you so much for your time and your thoughts.

Anon

(I have had my girlfriend look over this post and accept it as a reasonable presentation of both our opinions, however, she has also said whatever arguments are brought forth by this debate, she will not change her mind.)

Here's the thing... with sexual morality, you have the draw the line somewhere. Either that sexual actions outside of a procreative nature, or just between a man and a woman, or with consent, etc. Otherwise, there's always going to be people on the other side of the fence saying "But what about me? I like to have sex with children!!"

So yeah. I think you need to draw the line somewhere if you're going to draw it at all. Most people nowadays draw the line with consent. Of course I disagree with them, but at least they draw the line somewhere.

Unless you're a moral anti-realist in the sexual area. In which case, I don't see much of a point of posting this int he first place... :P
Abortion Is Generally Morally Reprehensible: http://www.debate.org...

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