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ADD medicaiton

Cody_Franklin
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2/27/2014 9:18:28 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Never taken it, but my sense of the profile is: better than stimulants (methylphenidate, amphetamines), essentially safe if you aren't wantonly mixing pharmaceuticals, and a battery of subjective effects (e.g., increased libido, decreased appetite).

It's also prescribed as an alternative antidepressant (against tricyclics and, more recently, SSRIs) and as an anti-smoking aid, acting as a dopamine reuptake inhibitor and a nicotine receptor antagonist. Generally pretty safe from what I understand, and considerably less risky or damaging than most of the medications prescribed for attention disorders. Frankly, I don't think these kinds of things have reason to be treated as diseases, but, if, by your own estimation, taking it improves your sense of long-term well-being, then I'd give it the green light.
dylancatlow
Posts: 12,244
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2/27/2014 9:40:59 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/27/2014 9:18:28 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
Never taken it, but my sense of the profile is: better than stimulants (methylphenidate, amphetamines), essentially safe if you aren't wantonly mixing pharmaceuticals, and a battery of subjective effects (e.g., increased libido, decreased appetite).

It's also prescribed as an alternative antidepressant (against tricyclics and, more recently, SSRIs) and as an anti-smoking aid, acting as a dopamine reuptake inhibitor and a nicotine receptor antagonist. Generally pretty safe from what I understand, and considerably less risky or damaging than most of the medications prescribed for attention disorders. Frankly, I don't think these kinds of things have reason to be treated as diseases, but, if, by your own estimation, taking it improves your sense of long-term well-being, then I'd give it the green light.

Thanks.
YYW
Posts: 36,282
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2/27/2014 9:41:31 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/27/2014 9:09:24 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
Apparently I have ADD, and I was prescribed wellbutrin to treat it. Has anyone else been on it? Did it work for you?

You were proscribed an antidepressant known to cause concentration problems for ADD?

Wtf?
Tsar of DDO
dylancatlow
Posts: 12,244
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2/27/2014 9:47:37 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/27/2014 9:41:31 PM, YYW wrote:
At 2/27/2014 9:09:24 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
Apparently I have ADD, and I was prescribed wellbutrin to treat it. Has anyone else been on it? Did it work for you?

You were proscribed an antidepressant known to cause concentration problems for ADD?

Wtf?

Where are you getting that from? On the places I checked, it's supposed to help with it. For example: http://www.drugs.com...
YYW
Posts: 36,282
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2/27/2014 9:53:24 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/27/2014 9:47:37 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 2/27/2014 9:41:31 PM, YYW wrote:
At 2/27/2014 9:09:24 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
Apparently I have ADD, and I was prescribed wellbutrin to treat it. Has anyone else been on it? Did it work for you?

You were proscribed an antidepressant known to cause concentration problems for ADD?

Wtf?

Where are you getting that from? On the places I checked, it's supposed to help with it. For example: http://www.drugs.com...

Burpopion is an antidepressant; not a powerful one, but it is known to cause concentration problems because of the impact it has on dopamine in the brain. It's a widely known side effect.

It may help you, or it may not and it might even cause more harm than good. It is my personal opinion that proscribing an antidepressant to someone under the age of 21 for any reason other than depression (regardless of prior success with ADHD) is stupid and medically irresponsible -but I'm not a doctor.

If you experience sexual side effects, mood swings, concentration problems or have unusual thoughts/moods, call your doctor immediately. Or, get a new doctor. When adderall is an option, it's astonishing to me than any doctor would write you an Rx for what you got.
Tsar of DDO
Cody_Franklin
Posts: 9,483
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2/27/2014 9:55:56 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/27/2014 9:47:37 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 2/27/2014 9:41:31 PM, YYW wrote:
At 2/27/2014 9:09:24 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
Apparently I have ADD, and I was prescribed wellbutrin to treat it. Has anyone else been on it? Did it work for you?

You were proscribed an antidepressant known to cause concentration problems for ADD?

Wtf?

Where are you getting that from? On the places I checked, it's supposed to help with it. For example: http://www.drugs.com...

This is also the first I'm hearing about it. I know that it can occasionally cause certain kinds of agitation or anxiety, but I assumed this was because it shows weak norepinephrine reuptake inhibition more than anything else. The only other strong, well-documented side effect of which I know is inducing seizures, but the response, which was evidently pretty successful, was a considerable downscaling of the clinical dose.
YYW
Posts: 36,282
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2/27/2014 10:02:26 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/27/2014 9:55:56 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
At 2/27/2014 9:47:37 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 2/27/2014 9:41:31 PM, YYW wrote:
At 2/27/2014 9:09:24 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
Apparently I have ADD, and I was prescribed wellbutrin to treat it. Has anyone else been on it? Did it work for you?

You were proscribed an antidepressant known to cause concentration problems for ADD?

Wtf?

Where are you getting that from? On the places I checked, it's supposed to help with it. For example: http://www.drugs.com...

This is also the first I'm hearing about it. I know that it can occasionally cause certain kinds of agitation or anxiety, but I assumed this was because it shows weak norepinephrine reuptake inhibition more than anything else. The only other strong, well-documented side effect of which I know is inducing seizures, but the response, which was evidently pretty successful, was a considerable downscaling of the clinical dose.

Side Effects:

mental/mood changes (e.g., agitation, anxiety, confusion, hallucinations, memory loss),

http://www.webmd.com...

I've taken it (to stop smoking), and had a pretty strong reaction to it -and am therefore incredibly biased against it. I'm not saying that Dylan necessarily will have problems, but that that when there are any number of other, better options (amphetamines), absent any sort of chronic cardiac/respiratory problems, proscribing bup. was an irresponsible decision.
Tsar of DDO
dylancatlow
Posts: 12,244
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2/27/2014 10:10:25 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/27/2014 9:53:24 PM, YYW wrote:
At 2/27/2014 9:47:37 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 2/27/2014 9:41:31 PM, YYW wrote:
At 2/27/2014 9:09:24 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
Apparently I have ADD, and I was prescribed wellbutrin to treat it. Has anyone else been on it? Did it work for you?

You were proscribed an antidepressant known to cause concentration problems for ADD?

Wtf?

Where are you getting that from? On the places I checked, it's supposed to help with it. For example: http://www.drugs.com...

Burpopion is an antidepressant; not a powerful one, but it is known to cause concentration problems because of the impact it has on dopamine in the brain. It's a widely known side effect.

It may help you, or it may not and it might even cause more harm than good. It is my personal opinion that proscribing an antidepressant to someone under the age of 21 for any reason other than depression (regardless of prior success with ADHD) is stupid and medically irresponsible -but I'm not a doctor.

If you experience sexual side effects, mood swings, concentration problems or have unusual thoughts/moods, call your doctor immediately. Or, get a new doctor. When adderall is an option, it's astonishing to me than any doctor would write you an Rx for what you got.

She said we'd move up to adderall/ritalin if this doesn't work.
Cody_Franklin
Posts: 9,483
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2/27/2014 10:15:18 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/27/2014 10:02:26 PM, YYW wrote:
At 2/27/2014 9:55:56 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
At 2/27/2014 9:47:37 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
Where are you getting that from? On the places I checked, it's supposed to help with it. For example: http://www.drugs.com...

This is also the first I'm hearing about it. I know that it can occasionally cause certain kinds of agitation or anxiety, but I assumed this was because it shows weak norepinephrine reuptake inhibition more than anything else. The only other strong, well-documented side effect of which I know is inducing seizures, but the response, which was evidently pretty successful, was a considerable downscaling of the clinical dose.

Side Effects:

mental/mood changes (e.g., agitation, anxiety, confusion, hallucinations, memory loss),

http://www.webmd.com...

Well, I think it's important to recall that, for the purpose of clinical trials, something has to be reported as a side effect if even one participant in the experimental group experienced it. It isn't to say that he couldn't have an adverse reaction to it, but that 1) "mental changes" are a nebulous category of side effects, and could probably be interpreted to fit a wide range of ordinary reactions; 2) it's almost impossible to tell, looking only at a qualitative list of things that have happened to x > 0 people, what the probability is that any given individual will experience these side effects. If it's a low subset of the sample, one could never meaningfully predict without considerable cost the probability of one's belonging to that subset, which costs would probably far outweigh the cost of actually experiencing such a side effect, given that one's trepidation would need to carry equally to all other possible medications with such listed side effects (to avoid being biased, as you acknowledge is probably a worry).

I've taken it (to stop smoking), and had a pretty strong reaction to it -and am therefore incredibly biased against it. I'm not saying that Dylan necessarily will have problems, but that that when there are any number of other, better options (amphetamines), absent any sort of chronic cardiac/respiratory problems, proscribing bup. was an irresponsible decision.

I disagree 100% that amphetamines are a better option. Almost every long-term study of stimulant treatment of attention disorders demonstrates, not just that they're not therapeutic in the long run, but that even low, infrequent doses can have permanent neurodegenerative damage. In contrast to the mechanism of action of buproprion, for instance, use of amphetamines forces one to endure the heavy risk (or perhaps imminent threat) of dopaminergic neurotoxicity, with intensity varying based on other variables (frequency/intensity of use, supplementation, diet, congenital susceptibility to stimulants, etc.).

Personally, I would rather go with something with possible, not-well-known-to-be-widespread-and-serious side effects than something with known, well-documented, incredibly deleterious certainties.
airmax1227
Posts: 13,240
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2/27/2014 10:18:37 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/27/2014 9:53:24 PM, YYW wrote:
At 2/27/2014 9:47:37 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 2/27/2014 9:41:31 PM, YYW wrote:
At 2/27/2014 9:09:24 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
Apparently I have ADD, and I was prescribed wellbutrin to treat it. Has anyone else been on it? Did it work for you?

You were proscribed an antidepressant known to cause concentration problems for ADD?

Wtf?

Where are you getting that from? On the places I checked, it's supposed to help with it. For example: http://www.drugs.com...

Burpopion is an antidepressant; not a powerful one, but it is known to cause concentration problems because of the impact it has on dopamine in the brain. It's a widely known side effect.

It may help you, or it may not and it might even cause more harm than good. It is my personal opinion that proscribing an antidepressant to someone under the age of 21 for any reason other than depression (regardless of prior success with ADHD) is stupid and medically irresponsible -but I'm not a doctor.

If you experience sexual side effects, mood swings, concentration problems or have unusual thoughts/moods, call your doctor immediately. Or, get a new doctor. When adderall is an option, it's astonishing to me than any doctor would write you an Rx for what you got.


I couldn't disagree with the underlined any more than I do. Who knows if Wellbutrin will work for anyone. It might, it might not. Either way it is often prescribed for ADD and we can only assume the doctor knows what he is doing (Though I'll admit I am one of the first to criticize doctors and do so regularly).

The idea though that doctors should jump to prescribing a class 2 medication is something significantly wrong with the health care/pharmaceutical industry on both a societal and consumer level. If a young person, recently diagnosed with ADD can get help from something like Wellbutrin, it is definitely preferable than for them to be taking medications that are extremely addictive and classed as adderall is.
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YYW
Posts: 36,282
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2/27/2014 10:21:12 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/27/2014 10:15:18 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
At 2/27/2014 10:02:26 PM, YYW wrote:
At 2/27/2014 9:55:56 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
At 2/27/2014 9:47:37 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
Where are you getting that from? On the places I checked, it's supposed to help with it. For example: http://www.drugs.com...

This is also the first I'm hearing about it. I know that it can occasionally cause certain kinds of agitation or anxiety, but I assumed this was because it shows weak norepinephrine reuptake inhibition more than anything else. The only other strong, well-documented side effect of which I know is inducing seizures, but the response, which was evidently pretty successful, was a considerable downscaling of the clinical dose.

Side Effects:

mental/mood changes (e.g., agitation, anxiety, confusion, hallucinations, memory loss),

http://www.webmd.com...

Well, I think it's important to recall that, for the purpose of clinical trials, something has to be reported as a side effect if even one participant in the experimental group experienced it.

Yes, that is how clinical trials work.

It isn't to say that he couldn't have an adverse reaction to it, but that 1) "mental changes" are a nebulous category of side effects, and could probably be interpreted to fit a wide range of ordinary reactions; 2) it's almost impossible to tell, looking only at a qualitative list of things that have happened to x > 0 people, what the probability is that any given individual will experience these side effects.

So, realize that I didn't say "Dylan is likely to experience a given side effect and therefore he shouldn't have been proscribed it."

If it's a low subset of the sample, one could never meaningfully predict without considerable cost the probability of one's belonging to that subset, which costs would probably far outweigh the cost of actually experiencing such a side effect, given that one's trepidation would need to carry equally to all other possible medications with such listed side effects (to avoid being biased, as you acknowledge is probably a worry).

There are a host of options for ADHD, the majority of which are better than antidepressants.

I've taken it (to stop smoking), and had a pretty strong reaction to it -and am therefore incredibly biased against it. I'm not saying that Dylan necessarily will have problems, but that that when there are any number of other, better options (amphetamines), absent any sort of chronic cardiac/respiratory problems, proscribing bup. was an irresponsible decision.

I disagree 100% that amphetamines are a better option.

Is that so?

Almost every long-term study of stimulant treatment of attention disorders demonstrates, not just that they're not therapeutic in the long run, but that even low, infrequent doses can have permanent neurodegenerative damage. In contrast to the mechanism of action of buproprion, for instance, use of amphetamines forces one to endure the heavy risk (or perhaps imminent threat) of dopaminergic neurotoxicity, with intensity varying based on other variables (frequency/intensity of use, supplementation, diet, congenital susceptibility to stimulants, etc.).

Possibility, as you have pointed out afore, is not the same thing as grounds that something will necessarily follow.

Personally, I would rather go with something with possible, not-well-known-to-be-widespread-and-serious side effects than something with known, well-documented, incredibly deleterious certainties.

Personally, I would suggest no medication, but if medication is something we're going to consider, amphetamines are a better and safer path than antidepressants no matter how you interpret the data -which, truthfully, I'm not interested in quibbling with you over.
Tsar of DDO
YYW
Posts: 36,282
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2/27/2014 10:27:41 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/27/2014 10:18:37 PM, airmax1227 wrote:
At 2/27/2014 9:53:24 PM, YYW wrote:
At 2/27/2014 9:47:37 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 2/27/2014 9:41:31 PM, YYW wrote:
At 2/27/2014 9:09:24 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
Apparently I have ADD, and I was prescribed wellbutrin to treat it. Has anyone else been on it? Did it work for you?

You were proscribed an antidepressant known to cause concentration problems for ADD?

Wtf?

Where are you getting that from? On the places I checked, it's supposed to help with it. For example: http://www.drugs.com...

Burpopion is an antidepressant; not a powerful one, but it is known to cause concentration problems because of the impact it has on dopamine in the brain. It's a widely known side effect.

It may help you, or it may not and it might even cause more harm than good. It is my personal opinion that proscribing an antidepressant to someone under the age of 21 for any reason other than depression (regardless of prior success with ADHD) is stupid and medically irresponsible -but I'm not a doctor.

If you experience sexual side effects, mood swings, concentration problems or have unusual thoughts/moods, call your doctor immediately. Or, get a new doctor. When adderall is an option, it's astonishing to me than any doctor would write you an Rx for what you got.


I couldn't disagree with the underlined any more than I do. Who knows if Wellbutrin will work for anyone. It might, it might not.

But if he has ADHD that is significant enough to merit a proscription, there is absolutely no question that Adderall will help him. If it isn't of a degree of severity that merits an amphetamine salt Rx, then nothing is preferable to an antidepressant.

Either way it is often prescribed for ADD and we can only assume the doctor knows what he is doing (Though I'll admit I am one of the first to criticize doctors and do so regularly).

The idea though that doctors should jump to prescribing a class 2 medication is something significantly wrong with the health care/pharmaceutical industry on both a societal and consumer level.

The very fact that ADD/ADHD is "treatable" with Rx drugs is, probably, indicative of some kind of social problem, and I'd prefer that medication of any kind not be proscribed. But, if we're going to proscribe medication, (even for myself, were I in his situation), I'd prefer adderall to bupropion every time.

If a young person, recently diagnosed with ADD can get help from something like Wellbutrin, it is definitely preferable than for them to be taking medications that are extremely addictive and classed as adderall is.

Adderall fears are grotesquely overstated, and the net risks of antidepressants are far greater than amphetamines (or, really, amphetamine salts).
Tsar of DDO
Cody_Franklin
Posts: 9,483
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2/27/2014 10:35:54 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/27/2014 10:21:12 PM, YYW wrote:
At 2/27/2014 10:15:18 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
At 2/27/2014 10:02:26 PM, YYW wrote:
Side Effects:

mental/mood changes (e.g., agitation, anxiety, confusion, hallucinations, memory loss),

http://www.webmd.com...

Well, I think it's important to recall that, for the purpose of clinical trials, something has to be reported as a side effect if even one participant in the experimental group experienced it.

Yes, that is how clinical trials work.

It isn't to say that he couldn't have an adverse reaction to it, but that 1) "mental changes" are a nebulous category of side effects, and could probably be interpreted to fit a wide range of ordinary reactions; 2) it's almost impossible to tell, looking only at a qualitative list of things that have happened to x > 0 people, what the probability is that any given individual will experience these side effects.

So, realize that I didn't say "Dylan is likely to experience a given side effect and therefore he shouldn't have been proscribed it."

Agreed--your contention was that it's excessively risky against other, better options (e.g., amphetamines); relative to the known neurotoxicity of amphetamine use, however, I was suggesting that the acute possible risk with buproprion of agitation or interference with concentration, while perhaps counterproductive for trying to keep one's attention, is arguably safer than amphetamines or Ritalin.

If it's a low subset of the sample, one could never meaningfully predict without considerable cost the probability of one's belonging to that subset, which costs would probably far outweigh the cost of actually experiencing such a side effect, given that one's trepidation would need to carry equally to all other possible medications with such listed side effects (to avoid being biased, as you acknowledge is probably a worry).

There are a host of options for ADHD, the majority of which are better than antidepressants.

I've taken it (to stop smoking), and had a pretty strong reaction to it -and am therefore incredibly biased against it. I'm not saying that Dylan necessarily will have problems, but that that when there are any number of other, better options (amphetamines), absent any sort of chronic cardiac/respiratory problems, proscribing bup. was an irresponsible decision.

I disagree 100% that amphetamines are a better option.

Is that so?

Almost every long-term study of stimulant treatment of attention disorders demonstrates, not just that they're not therapeutic in the long run, but that even low, infrequent doses can have permanent neurodegenerative damage. In contrast to the mechanism of action of buproprion, for instance, use of amphetamines forces one to endure the heavy risk (or perhaps imminent threat) of dopaminergic neurotoxicity, with intensity varying based on other variables (frequency/intensity of use, supplementation, diet, congenital susceptibility to stimulants, etc.).

Possibility, as you have pointed out afore, is not the same thing as grounds that something will necessarily follow.

Well, technically, it's not really just possibility. With amphetamines in particular (and, though my research is less thorough here, also seemingly Ritalin), it's more or less a certainty that amphetamine use, even if it's just dextroamphetamine, is a ticket to neurotoxicity. If one were weighing medications only on the basis of probability, even an 50% confidence interval for permanent brain damage would be too risky for most. There are ways of getting around that sort of thing (with MDMA, for example, one can supplement magnesium and CoQ10 to respectively block excess calcium ions from getting into one's neuronal ion channels and more efficiently expel what does manage to get in), but it's usually expensive and laborious, and would require an astounding financial commitment to even begin to be therapeutically viable. I agree, as you remark below, that no medication is most preferable, but I cannot understand how you could prefer amphetamines over dopamine uptake inhibitors. In the realm of dopamine alone, low-dose treatment systematically induces decay of dopamine receptors (only far more gradually than methamphetamine).

Personally, I would rather go with something with possible, not-well-known-to-be-widespread-and-serious side effects than something with known, well-documented, incredibly deleterious certainties.

Personally, I would suggest no medication, but if medication is something we're going to consider, amphetamines are a better and safer path than antidepressants no matter how you interpret the data -which, truthfully, I'm not interested in quibbling with you over.

Fair enough.
airmax1227
Posts: 13,240
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2/27/2014 10:38:10 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/27/2014 10:27:41 PM, YYW wrote:
At 2/27/2014 10:18:37 PM, airmax1227 wrote:
At 2/27/2014 9:53:24 PM, YYW wrote:
At 2/27/2014 9:47:37 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 2/27/2014 9:41:31 PM, YYW wrote:
At 2/27/2014 9:09:24 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
Apparently I have ADD, and I was prescribed wellbutrin to treat it. Has anyone else been on it? Did it work for you?

You were proscribed an antidepressant known to cause concentration problems for ADD?

Wtf?

Where are you getting that from? On the places I checked, it's supposed to help with it. For example: http://www.drugs.com...

Burpopion is an antidepressant; not a powerful one, but it is known to cause concentration problems because of the impact it has on dopamine in the brain. It's a widely known side effect.

It may help you, or it may not and it might even cause more harm than good. It is my personal opinion that proscribing an antidepressant to someone under the age of 21 for any reason other than depression (regardless of prior success with ADHD) is stupid and medically irresponsible -but I'm not a doctor.

If you experience sexual side effects, mood swings, concentration problems or have unusual thoughts/moods, call your doctor immediately. Or, get a new doctor. When adderall is an option, it's astonishing to me than any doctor would write you an Rx for what you got.


I couldn't disagree with the underlined any more than I do. Who knows if Wellbutrin will work for anyone. It might, it might not.

But if he has ADHD that is significant enough to merit a proscription, there is absolutely no question that Adderall will help him. If it isn't of a degree of severity that merits an amphetamine salt Rx, then nothing is preferable to an antidepressant.


Different people require different types of medication therapy.

Either way it is often prescribed for ADD and we can only assume the doctor knows what he is doing (Though I'll admit I am one of the first to criticize doctors and do so regularly).

The idea though that doctors should jump to prescribing a class 2 medication is something significantly wrong with the health care/pharmaceutical industry on both a societal and consumer level.

The very fact that ADD/ADHD is "treatable" with Rx drugs is, probably, indicative of some kind of social problem, and I'd prefer that medication of any kind not be proscribed. But, if we're going to proscribe medication, (even for myself, were I in his situation), I'd prefer adderall to bupropion every time.


Apparently the doctor disagrees with you. And I'm going to assume the doctor knows the patient better than you do.

If a young person, recently diagnosed with ADD can get help from something like Wellbutrin, it is definitely preferable than for them to be taking medications that are extremely addictive and classed as adderall is.

Adderall fears are grotesquely overstated, and the net risks of antidepressants are far greater than amphetamines (or, really, amphetamine salts).

It's a class 2 drug for a reason and its risk of abuse is very high. The doctor apparently agrees because as Dylan has said, they want to try Wellbutrin first and then move on to Methlyphen or Adderall if it doesn't work. Clearly the first option is preferable to the doctor and presents an opportunity for success with decreased risk.
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YYW
Posts: 36,282
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2/27/2014 10:41:26 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/27/2014 10:35:54 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
At 2/27/2014 10:21:12 PM, YYW wrote:
At 2/27/2014 10:15:18 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
At 2/27/2014 10:02:26 PM, YYW wrote:
Side Effects:

mental/mood changes (e.g., agitation, anxiety, confusion, hallucinations, memory loss),

http://www.webmd.com...

Well, I think it's important to recall that, for the purpose of clinical trials, something has to be reported as a side effect if even one participant in the experimental group experienced it.

Yes, that is how clinical trials work.

It isn't to say that he couldn't have an adverse reaction to it, but that 1) "mental changes" are a nebulous category of side effects, and could probably be interpreted to fit a wide range of ordinary reactions; 2) it's almost impossible to tell, looking only at a qualitative list of things that have happened to x > 0 people, what the probability is that any given individual will experience these side effects.

So, realize that I didn't say "Dylan is likely to experience a given side effect and therefore he shouldn't have been proscribed it."

Agreed--your contention was that it's excessively risky against other, better options (e.g., amphetamines); relative to the known neurotoxicity of amphetamine use, however, I was suggesting that the acute possible risk with buproprion of agitation or interference with concentration, while perhaps counterproductive for trying to keep one's attention, is arguably safer than amphetamines or Ritalin.

So, you do realize that there are more possible side effects than just difficulty concentrating, right? I understand that there are risks with amphetamines (and I wouldn't, probably, proscribe Ritalin if I were in a position to do so), but I would not proscribe anything before I would proscribe an antidepressant if the condition wasn't enough to merit an amphetamine Rx.

If it's a low subset of the sample, one could never meaningfully predict without considerable cost the probability of one's belonging to that subset, which costs would probably far outweigh the cost of actually experiencing such a side effect, given that one's trepidation would need to carry equally to all other possible medications with such listed side effects (to avoid being biased, as you acknowledge is probably a worry).

There are a host of options for ADHD, the majority of which are better than antidepressants.

I've taken it (to stop smoking), and had a pretty strong reaction to it -and am therefore incredibly biased against it. I'm not saying that Dylan necessarily will have problems, but that that when there are any number of other, better options (amphetamines), absent any sort of chronic cardiac/respiratory problems, proscribing bup. was an irresponsible decision.

I disagree 100% that amphetamines are a better option.

Is that so?

Almost every long-term study of stimulant treatment of attention disorders demonstrates, not just that they're not therapeutic in the long run, but that even low, infrequent doses can have permanent neurodegenerative damage. In contrast to the mechanism of action of buproprion, for instance, use of amphetamines forces one to endure the heavy risk (or perhaps imminent threat) of dopaminergic neurotoxicity, with intensity varying based on other variables (frequency/intensity of use, supplementation, diet, congenital susceptibility to stimulants, etc.).

Possibility, as you have pointed out afore, is not the same thing as grounds that something will necessarily follow.

Well, technically, it's not really just possibility. With amphetamines in particular (and, though my research is less thorough here, also seemingly Ritalin), it's more or less a certainty that amphetamine use, even if it's just dextroamphetamine, is a ticket to neurotoxicity.

I'm with you in being skeptical about Ritalin. Adderal is not Ritalin, even though they are both amphetamines.

If one were weighing medications only on the basis of probability, even an 50% confidence interval for permanent brain damage would be too risky for most. There are ways of getting around that sort of thing (with MDMA, for example, one can supplement magnesium and CoQ10 to respectively block excess calcium ions from getting into one's neuronal ion channels and more efficiently expel what does manage to get in), but it's usually expensive and laborious, and would require an astounding financial commitment to even begin to be therapeutically viable. I agree, as you remark below, that no medication is most preferable, but I cannot understand how you could prefer amphetamines over dopamine uptake inhibitors.

I'd prefer nothing unless the condition was sufficient to merit a stimulant.

In the realm of dopamine alone, low-dose treatment systematically induces decay of dopamine receptors (only far more gradually than methamphetamine).

I'd be more inclined to encourage Dylan to take fish oil supplements.

Personally, I would rather go with something with possible, not-well-known-to-be-widespread-and-serious side effects than something with known, well-documented, incredibly deleterious certainties.

Personally, I would suggest no medication, but if medication is something we're going to consider, amphetamines are a better and safer path than antidepressants no matter how you interpret the data -which, truthfully, I'm not interested in quibbling with you over.

Fair enough.
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Cody_Franklin
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2/27/2014 10:43:56 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
I do have to agree with YYW, though, that prescribing buproprion for ADHD makes little sense for reasons, not of danger, but of relevance. Clinical trials assessing the therapeutic use of WB on ADHD have been done, but, as far as I know, there has never been discovered any weighty, meaningful difference in outcome between the placebo and experimental groups. He may as well have prescribed pills of pressed filler.
YYW
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2/27/2014 10:44:17 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/27/2014 10:38:10 PM, airmax1227 wrote:
At 2/27/2014 10:27:41 PM, YYW wrote:
At 2/27/2014 10:18:37 PM, airmax1227 wrote:
At 2/27/2014 9:53:24 PM, YYW wrote:
At 2/27/2014 9:47:37 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 2/27/2014 9:41:31 PM, YYW wrote:
At 2/27/2014 9:09:24 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
Apparently I have ADD, and I was prescribed wellbutrin to treat it. Has anyone else been on it? Did it work for you?

You were proscribed an antidepressant known to cause concentration problems for ADD?

Wtf?

Where are you getting that from? On the places I checked, it's supposed to help with it. For example: http://www.drugs.com...

Burpopion is an antidepressant; not a powerful one, but it is known to cause concentration problems because of the impact it has on dopamine in the brain. It's a widely known side effect.

It may help you, or it may not and it might even cause more harm than good. It is my personal opinion that proscribing an antidepressant to someone under the age of 21 for any reason other than depression (regardless of prior success with ADHD) is stupid and medically irresponsible -but I'm not a doctor.

If you experience sexual side effects, mood swings, concentration problems or have unusual thoughts/moods, call your doctor immediately. Or, get a new doctor. When adderall is an option, it's astonishing to me than any doctor would write you an Rx for what you got.


I couldn't disagree with the underlined any more than I do. Who knows if Wellbutrin will work for anyone. It might, it might not.

But if he has ADHD that is significant enough to merit a proscription, there is absolutely no question that Adderall will help him. If it isn't of a degree of severity that merits an amphetamine salt Rx, then nothing is preferable to an antidepressant.


Different people require different types of medication therapy.

Fish Oil, really, would be the best place to start.

Either way it is often prescribed for ADD and we can only assume the doctor knows what he is doing (Though I'll admit I am one of the first to criticize doctors and do so regularly).

The idea though that doctors should jump to prescribing a class 2 medication is something significantly wrong with the health care/pharmaceutical industry on both a societal and consumer level.

The very fact that ADD/ADHD is "treatable" with Rx drugs is, probably, indicative of some kind of social problem, and I'd prefer that medication of any kind not be proscribed. But, if we're going to proscribe medication, (even for myself, were I in his situation), I'd prefer adderall to bupropion every time.


Apparently the doctor disagrees with you.

lol, no sh!t.

And I'm going to assume the doctor knows the patient better than you do.

I think it's fair to assume that the good doctor knows more about medicine than I do, but my issue is with what was proscribed and what it was intended to treat.

If a young person, recently diagnosed with ADD can get help from something like Wellbutrin, it is definitely preferable than for them to be taking medications that are extremely addictive and classed as adderall is.

Adderall fears are grotesquely overstated, and the net risks of antidepressants are far greater than amphetamines (or, really, amphetamine salts).

It's a class 2 drug for a reason and its risk of abuse is very high. The doctor apparently agrees because as Dylan has said, they want to try Wellbutrin first and then move on to Methlyphen or Adderall if it doesn't work. Clearly the first option is preferable to the doctor and presents an opportunity for success with decreased risk.

That is typical protocol, I'm aware.
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YYW
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2/27/2014 10:50:21 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/27/2014 10:43:56 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
I do have to agree with YYW, though, that prescribing buproprion for ADHD makes little sense for reasons, not of danger, but of relevance.

The reason why they do it is because if symptoms of ADHD are the byproduct of depression (which is a possibility), the antidepressant is more likely to be more effective than a stimulant. But, the problem is that doctors are bad at actually diagnosing ADHD.

I'd be curious to know if Dylan underwent bloodwork before getting his present scrip. After all, a vitamin D deficiency can manifest in ways that are hardly distinguishable from mild ADHD.

Clinical trials assessing the therapeutic use of WB on ADHD have been done, but, as far as I know, there has never been discovered any weighty, meaningful difference in outcome between the placebo and experimental groups. He may as well have prescribed pills of pressed filler.

Or... fish oil.
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Cody_Franklin
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2/27/2014 10:54:17 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/27/2014 10:41:26 PM, YYW wrote:
At 2/27/2014 10:35:54 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:

Agreed--your contention was that it's excessively risky against other, better options (e.g., amphetamines); relative to the known neurotoxicity of amphetamine use, however, I was suggesting that the acute possible risk with buproprion of agitation or interference with concentration, while perhaps counterproductive for trying to keep one's attention, is arguably safer than amphetamines or Ritalin.

So, you do realize that there are more possible side effects than just difficulty concentrating, right? I understand that there are risks with amphetamines (and I wouldn't, probably, proscribe Ritalin if I were in a position to do so), but I would not proscribe anything before I would proscribe an antidepressant if the condition wasn't enough to merit an amphetamine Rx.

Agreed. I would have to see the risk profile for buproprion, though. Like I said, the only serious recorded risk was inducing seizures, but they fixed that by cranking the maximum dose down by about half (I think).

Almost every long-term study of stimulant treatment of attention disorders demonstrates, not just that they're not therapeutic in the long run, but that even low, infrequent doses can have permanent neurodegenerative damage. In contrast to the mechanism of action of buproprion, for instance, use of amphetamines forces one to endure the heavy risk (or perhaps imminent threat) of dopaminergic neurotoxicity, with intensity varying based on other variables (frequency/intensity of use, supplementation, diet, congenital susceptibility to stimulants, etc.).

Possibility, as you have pointed out afore, is not the same thing as grounds that something will necessarily follow.

Well, technically, it's not really just possibility. With amphetamines in particular (and, though my research is less thorough here, also seemingly Ritalin), it's more or less a certainty that amphetamine use, even if it's just dextroamphetamine, is a ticket to neurotoxicity.

I'm with you in being skeptical about Ritalin. Adderal is not Ritalin, even though they are both amphetamines.

Well, Ritalin isn't an amphetamine. It's methylphenidate, which is a phenethylamine tinkered with somehow (my organic chemistry is nowhere near good enough to explain how) by the pharmaceutical industry.

If one were weighing medications only on the basis of probability, even an 50% confidence interval for permanent brain damage would be too risky for most. There are ways of getting around that sort of thing (with MDMA, for example, one can supplement magnesium and CoQ10 to respectively block excess calcium ions from getting into one's neuronal ion channels and more efficiently expel what does manage to get in), but it's usually expensive and laborious, and would require an astounding financial commitment to even begin to be therapeutically viable. I agree, as you remark below, that no medication is most preferable, but I cannot understand how you could prefer amphetamines over dopamine uptake inhibitors.

I'd prefer nothing unless the condition was sufficient to merit a stimulant.

In the realm of dopamine alone, low-dose treatment systematically induces decay of dopamine receptors (only far more gradually than methamphetamine).

I'd be more inclined to encourage Dylan to take fish oil supplements.

Agreed. I think there's a host of stuff he could take that would be better than stimulants or antidepressants. I'm actually going to be experimenting with a chemical called sunifiram in a few days, and it's supposedly a very agreeable alternative to amphetamines as concerns focus, motivation, mood, etc. Can be stimulating, as I understand, without just overclocking the hardware and guzzling fuel, as actual stimulants do.
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2/27/2014 10:56:00 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/27/2014 10:54:17 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
Agreed. I think there's a host of stuff he could take that would be better than stimulants or antidepressants. I'm actually going to be experimenting with a chemical called sunifiram in a few days, and it's supposedly a very agreeable alternative to amphetamines as concerns focus, motivation, mood, etc. Can be stimulating, as I understand, without just overclocking the hardware and guzzling fuel, as actual stimulants do.

Tell me more. I'm not familiar with that.
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Cody_Franklin
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2/27/2014 11:11:49 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/27/2014 10:56:00 PM, YYW wrote:
At 2/27/2014 10:54:17 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
Agreed. I think there's a host of stuff he could take that would be better than stimulants or antidepressants. I'm actually going to be experimenting with a chemical called sunifiram in a few days, and it's supposedly a very agreeable alternative to amphetamines as concerns focus, motivation, mood, etc. Can be stimulating, as I understand, without just overclocking the hardware and guzzling fuel, as actual stimulants do.

Tell me more. I'm not familiar with that.

My understanding is that it's a lot like piracetam, structurally, except it's not a racetam drug. Racetams are basically defined by the base pyrrolidine ring that they spring out of. Sunifiram is a "raceram", I think. Instead of following the racetam structure, they bust open the pyrrolidine structure and stick a piperazine molecule in it (piperazine is a carbon ring with two nitrogens stuck on opposing ends). So I read, sunifiram ends up a couple orders of magnitude more powerful than piracetam (it's a few hundred times over, I think), with pharmacology looking something roughly like: 1) stimulates AMPA (glutamate, excitatory/synaptic neurotransmitter) receptors, improves attention span, learning/memory, etc.; 2) activates a bunch of successive enzymes, called kinases, to carry phosphate groups to AMPA and NDMA receptors (both take in glutamate, but NMDA has more to do with neuroplasticity, as I understand, than AMPA, which deals with transmission of signals); 3) facilitates greater release of acetylcholine.

The big thing is more or less cognitive enhancement through long-term potentiation, which is the strengthening of neurons and interneuronal/synaptic connections, which is why using enzymes to phosphorylate AMPA and NMDA receptors all at once is something you want.
YYW
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2/27/2014 11:14:06 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/27/2014 11:11:49 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
At 2/27/2014 10:56:00 PM, YYW wrote:
At 2/27/2014 10:54:17 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
Agreed. I think there's a host of stuff he could take that would be better than stimulants or antidepressants. I'm actually going to be experimenting with a chemical called sunifiram in a few days, and it's supposedly a very agreeable alternative to amphetamines as concerns focus, motivation, mood, etc. Can be stimulating, as I understand, without just overclocking the hardware and guzzling fuel, as actual stimulants do.

Tell me more. I'm not familiar with that.

My understanding is that it's a lot like piracetam, structurally, except it's not a racetam drug. Racetams are basically defined by the base pyrrolidine ring that they spring out of. Sunifiram is a "raceram", I think. Instead of following the racetam structure, they bust open the pyrrolidine structure and stick a piperazine molecule in it (piperazine is a carbon ring with two nitrogens stuck on opposing ends). So I read, sunifiram ends up a couple orders of magnitude more powerful than piracetam (it's a few hundred times over, I think), with pharmacology looking something roughly like: 1) stimulates AMPA (glutamate, excitatory/synaptic neurotransmitter) receptors, improves attention span, learning/memory, etc.; 2) activates a bunch of successive enzymes, called kinases, to carry phosphate groups to AMPA and NDMA receptors (both take in glutamate, but NMDA has more to do with neuroplasticity, as I understand, than AMPA, which deals with transmission of signals); 3) facilitates greater release of acetylcholine.

The big thing is more or less cognitive enhancement through long-term potentiation, which is the strengthening of neurons and interneuronal/synaptic connections, which is why using enzymes to phosphorylate AMPA and NMDA receptors all at once is something you want.

Is it legal? Where can you get this stuff?
Tsar of DDO
Cody_Franklin
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2/27/2014 11:16:40 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/27/2014 11:14:06 PM, YYW wrote:
At 2/27/2014 11:11:49 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
At 2/27/2014 10:56:00 PM, YYW wrote:
At 2/27/2014 10:54:17 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
Agreed. I think there's a host of stuff he could take that would be better than stimulants or antidepressants. I'm actually going to be experimenting with a chemical called sunifiram in a few days, and it's supposedly a very agreeable alternative to amphetamines as concerns focus, motivation, mood, etc. Can be stimulating, as I understand, without just overclocking the hardware and guzzling fuel, as actual stimulants do.

Tell me more. I'm not familiar with that.

My understanding is that it's a lot like piracetam, structurally, except it's not a racetam drug. Racetams are basically defined by the base pyrrolidine ring that they spring out of. Sunifiram is a "raceram", I think. Instead of following the racetam structure, they bust open the pyrrolidine structure and stick a piperazine molecule in it (piperazine is a carbon ring with two nitrogens stuck on opposing ends). So I read, sunifiram ends up a couple orders of magnitude more powerful than piracetam (it's a few hundred times over, I think), with pharmacology looking something roughly like: 1) stimulates AMPA (glutamate, excitatory/synaptic neurotransmitter) receptors, improves attention span, learning/memory, etc.; 2) activates a bunch of successive enzymes, called kinases, to carry phosphate groups to AMPA and NDMA receptors (both take in glutamate, but NMDA has more to do with neuroplasticity, as I understand, than AMPA, which deals with transmission of signals); 3) facilitates greater release of acetylcholine.

The big thing is more or less cognitive enhancement through long-term potentiation, which is the strengthening of neurons and interneuronal/synaptic connections, which is why using enzymes to phosphorylate AMPA and NMDA receptors all at once is something you want.

Is it legal? Where can you get this stuff?

Absolutely legal. I get most of my swag here [https://www.newstarnootropics.com...].
YYW
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2/27/2014 11:20:58 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/27/2014 11:16:40 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
At 2/27/2014 11:14:06 PM, YYW wrote:
At 2/27/2014 11:11:49 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
At 2/27/2014 10:56:00 PM, YYW wrote:
At 2/27/2014 10:54:17 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
Agreed. I think there's a host of stuff he could take that would be better than stimulants or antidepressants. I'm actually going to be experimenting with a chemical called sunifiram in a few days, and it's supposedly a very agreeable alternative to amphetamines as concerns focus, motivation, mood, etc. Can be stimulating, as I understand, without just overclocking the hardware and guzzling fuel, as actual stimulants do.

Tell me more. I'm not familiar with that.

My understanding is that it's a lot like piracetam, structurally, except it's not a racetam drug. Racetams are basically defined by the base pyrrolidine ring that they spring out of. Sunifiram is a "raceram", I think. Instead of following the racetam structure, they bust open the pyrrolidine structure and stick a piperazine molecule in it (piperazine is a carbon ring with two nitrogens stuck on opposing ends). So I read, sunifiram ends up a couple orders of magnitude more powerful than piracetam (it's a few hundred times over, I think), with pharmacology looking something roughly like: 1) stimulates AMPA (glutamate, excitatory/synaptic neurotransmitter) receptors, improves attention span, learning/memory, etc.; 2) activates a bunch of successive enzymes, called kinases, to carry phosphate groups to AMPA and NDMA receptors (both take in glutamate, but NMDA has more to do with neuroplasticity, as I understand, than AMPA, which deals with transmission of signals); 3) facilitates greater release of acetylcholine.

The big thing is more or less cognitive enhancement through long-term potentiation, which is the strengthening of neurons and interneuronal/synaptic connections, which is why using enzymes to phosphorylate AMPA and NMDA receptors all at once is something you want.

Is it legal? Where can you get this stuff?

Absolutely legal. I get most of my swag here [https://www.newstarnootropics.com...].

I might have to give that a try. Let me know what, if any, impact you notice from it.
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Cody_Franklin
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2/27/2014 11:25:00 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/27/2014 11:20:58 PM, YYW wrote:
I might have to give that a try. Let me know what, if any, impact you notice from it.

Sure thing. In the meantime, you might benefit from reading some of the extant PubMed studies on it (pharmaceutical designation DM-235), and gathering a few of the anecdotal reports scattered around the internet. Might give you a sense of what to expect if you opt to obtain some for personal use.
YYW
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2/27/2014 11:38:19 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/27/2014 11:25:00 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
At 2/27/2014 11:20:58 PM, YYW wrote:
I might have to give that a try. Let me know what, if any, impact you notice from it.

Sure thing. In the meantime, you might benefit from reading some of the extant PubMed studies on it (pharmaceutical designation DM-235), and gathering a few of the anecdotal reports scattered around the internet. Might give you a sense of what to expect if you opt to obtain some for personal use.

Cheers
Tsar of DDO