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Dualism vs Physicalism

Installgentoo
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3/10/2014 9:19:28 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Which one do you think is the best model of the brain? Both models have a number of pros, but they have an equal number of drawbacks too.

What model do you think is right? I am a dualist because I feel it helps explain more psychological traits than physicalism.
philochristos
Posts: 2,614
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3/10/2014 9:50:40 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/10/2014 9:19:28 PM, Installgentoo wrote:
Which one do you think is the best model of the brain? Both models have a number of pros, but they have an equal number of drawbacks too.

What model do you think is right? I am a dualist because I feel it helps explain more psychological traits than physicalism.

Strictly speaking, dualism is not a model of the brain. It's a model of the whole person. The brain is just one aspect of it.

I'm a dualist because two is better than one.
"Not to know of what things one should demand demonstration, and of what one should not, argues want of education." ~Aristotle

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." ~Aristotle
philochristos
Posts: 2,614
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3/10/2014 9:51:55 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
I'm also a dualist because I believe we must defend our honor.
"Not to know of what things one should demand demonstration, and of what one should not, argues want of education." ~Aristotle

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." ~Aristotle
Sswdwm
Posts: 1,398
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3/11/2014 4:05:41 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/10/2014 9:19:28 PM, Installgentoo wrote:
Which one do you think is the best model of the brain? Both models have a number of pros, but they have an equal number of drawbacks too.

What model do you think is right? I am a dualist because I feel it helps explain more psychological traits than physicalism.

Physicalism I guess, although I have never identified as such. The reason is the latter is the only one that provides tangible explanations that are testable. The former seems to be a basic argument ad ignorantum.
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AnDoctuir
Posts: 11,060
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3/11/2014 6:28:07 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
I'm just going to use this thread to talk about how f*cking magical I think things are there are while. Just to get the ball rolling though, I'll say that I'm not a dualist, but I do think a person's essence resides in the mind.
AnDoctuir
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3/11/2014 6:38:45 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/11/2014 4:05:41 AM, Sswdwm wrote:
At 3/10/2014 9:19:28 PM, Installgentoo wrote:
Which one do you think is the best model of the brain? Both models have a number of pros, but they have an equal number of drawbacks too.

What model do you think is right? I am a dualist because I feel it helps explain more psychological traits than physicalism.

Physicalism I guess, although I have never identified as such. The reason is the latter is the only one that provides tangible explanations that are testable. The former seems to be a basic argument ad ignorantum.

Your epistemology is all messed up.
Sswdwm
Posts: 1,398
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3/11/2014 6:40:14 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/11/2014 6:38:45 AM, AnDoctuir wrote:
At 3/11/2014 4:05:41 AM, Sswdwm wrote:
At 3/10/2014 9:19:28 PM, Installgentoo wrote:
Which one do you think is the best model of the brain? Both models have a number of pros, but they have an equal number of drawbacks too.

What model do you think is right? I am a dualist because I feel it helps explain more psychological traits than physicalism.

Physicalism I guess, although I have never identified as such. The reason is the latter is the only one that provides tangible explanations that are testable. The former seems to be a basic argument ad ignorantum.

Your epistemology is all messed up.

Lol, humor me, please.
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Sidewalker
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3/11/2014 6:40:42 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/11/2014 4:05:41 AM, Sswdwm wrote:
At 3/10/2014 9:19:28 PM, Installgentoo wrote:
Which one do you think is the best model of the brain? Both models have a number of pros, but they have an equal number of drawbacks too.

What model do you think is right? I am a dualist because I feel it helps explain more psychological traits than physicalism.

Physicalism I guess, although I have never identified as such. The reason is the latter is the only one that provides tangible explanations that are testable. The former seems to be a basic argument ad ignorantum.

Can you share this tangible explanation that is testable with us?
"It is one of the commonest of mistakes to consider that the limit of our power of perception is also the limit of all there is to perceive." " C. W. Leadbeater
AnDoctuir
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3/11/2014 6:51:16 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/11/2014 6:40:14 AM, Sswdwm wrote:
At 3/11/2014 6:38:45 AM, AnDoctuir wrote:
At 3/11/2014 4:05:41 AM, Sswdwm wrote:
At 3/10/2014 9:19:28 PM, Installgentoo wrote:
Which one do you think is the best model of the brain? Both models have a number of pros, but they have an equal number of drawbacks too.

What model do you think is right? I am a dualist because I feel it helps explain more psychological traits than physicalism.

Physicalism I guess, although I have never identified as such. The reason is the latter is the only one that provides tangible explanations that are testable. The former seems to be a basic argument ad ignorantum.

Your epistemology is all messed up.

Lol, humor me, please.

You might as well have said you believed there was treasure in your garden because you found a map with an "X" printed over where your garden was.
AnDoctuir
Posts: 11,060
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3/11/2014 6:55:01 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Science is pragmatism. Nothing more. You're making god out of it, and quite sillily mind you, because there's never going to be an end to your map. There's nothing ultimately logical or comprehensible about our existence, we are walking paradoxes.
AnDoctuir
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3/11/2014 6:59:31 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Of course I'm not saying the universe isn't one big ball of materialism either, but that whether it is or not is ultimately unknowable to us. And in the end it all comes back to god anyway, just whether you're banishing god to outside the universe or letting him in. The big ball of materialism being the banishment of god to outside the universe, of course. I mean, where did the big ball of materialism come from? Magic, right?
Sswdwm
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3/11/2014 7:33:19 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/11/2014 6:59:31 AM, AnDoctuir wrote:
Of course I'm not saying the universe isn't one big ball of materialism either, but that whether it is or not is ultimately unknowable to us. And in the end it all comes back to god anyway, just whether you're banishing god to outside the universe or letting him in. The big ball of materialism being the banishment of god to outside the universe, of course. I mean, where did the big ball of materialism come from? Magic, right?

You've gone on one big tangent which I barely agree with. My epistemology has nothing to do with a god, so why do you even bring this point up? It is completely irrelevant. I was only talking about the brain and how it affects conciousness.

Everything understood about conciousness seems to manifest in the brain. The level of conciousness type of thoughts, behaviours and ability to be logical/emotional all are strongly supported by the one physical brain hypothesis.

It's the simplest explanation too, any additional attribute (such as a separate mind from the brain) at best adds an extra layer of unnecessary baggage which isn't worth considering until it is demonstrated as much.
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AnDoctuir
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3/11/2014 7:57:35 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/11/2014 7:33:19 AM, Sswdwm wrote:
At 3/11/2014 6:59:31 AM, AnDoctuir wrote:
Of course I'm not saying the universe isn't one big ball of materialism either, but that whether it is or not is ultimately unknowable to us. And in the end it all comes back to god anyway, just whether you're banishing god to outside the universe or letting him in. The big ball of materialism being the banishment of god to outside the universe, of course. I mean, where did the big ball of materialism come from? Magic, right?

You've gone on one big tangent which I barely agree with. My epistemology has nothing to do with a god, so why do you even bring this point up?

It does really though: "provides tangible explanations that are testable", i.e., science = right, god = wrong.

It is completely irrelevant. I was only talking about the brain and how it affects conciousness.

Sure bro.

Everything understood about conciousness seems to manifest in the brain. The level of conciousness type of thoughts, behaviours and ability to be logical/emotional all are strongly supported by the one physical brain hypothesis.

Again, pragmatism. Because you find a map with an "X" over your garden doesn't mean it's sensible to believe that there's treasure in your garden, but it would be sensible to dig.

It's the simplest explanation too, any additional attribute (such as a separate mind from the brain) at best adds an extra layer of unnecessary baggage which isn't worth considering until it is demonstrated as much.

Simplest explanation my a-ss, lol.
Sswdwm
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3/11/2014 8:28:24 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/11/2014 7:57:35 AM, AnDoctuir wrote:
At 3/11/2014 7:33:19 AM, Sswdwm wrote:
At 3/11/2014 6:59:31 AM, AnDoctuir wrote:
Of course I'm not saying the universe isn't one big ball of materialism either, but that whether it is or not is ultimately unknowable to us. And in the end it all comes back to god anyway, just whether you're banishing god to outside the universe or letting him in. The big ball of materialism being the banishment of god to outside the universe, of course. I mean, where did the big ball of materialism come from? Magic, right?

You've gone on one big tangent which I barely agree with. My epistemology has nothing to do with a god, so why do you even bring this point up?

It does really though: "provides tangible explanations that are testable", i.e., science = right, god = wrong.

I never made any such statement. Nor did I imply any, as I haven't talked about a god not once in this thread.

It is completely irrelevant. I was only talking about the brain and how it affects conciousness.

Sure bro.

Everything understood about conciousness seems to manifest in the brain. The level of conciousness type of thoughts, behaviours and ability to be logical/emotional all are strongly supported by the one physical brain hypothesis.

Again, pragmatism. Because you find a map with an "X" over your garden doesn't mean it's sensible to believe that there's treasure in your garden, but it would be sensible to dig.

Inductive reasoning. Empiricism, which is an internally consistent epistemology. I can't say I know that I know something, but I can say my beliefs are better justified than the next guy's.

It's the simplest explanation too, any additional attribute (such as a separate mind from the brain) at best adds an extra layer of unnecessary baggage which isn't worth considering until it is demonstrated as much.

Simplest explanation my a-ss, lol.

I think you read this in a different context to which I wrote it.

Dualisms depict an additional entity to the brain. An additional attribute to consciousness.

Which is excisable with a razor belonging to Occum.
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Installgentoo
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3/11/2014 11:55:58 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/11/2014 4:05:41 AM, Sswdwm wrote:
At 3/10/2014 9:19:28 PM, Installgentoo wrote:
Which one do you think is the best model of the brain? Both models have a number of pros, but they have an equal number of drawbacks too.

What model do you think is right? I am a dualist because I feel it helps explain more psychological traits than physicalism.

Physicalism I guess, although I have never identified as such. The reason is the latter is the only one that provides tangible explanations that are testable. The former seems to be a basic argument ad ignorantum.

Dualism makes testable predictions too, like that there should be a time delay between a mental state and a brain state.
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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3/11/2014 12:02:28 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/11/2014 11:55:58 AM, Installgentoo wrote:
At 3/11/2014 4:05:41 AM, Sswdwm wrote:
At 3/10/2014 9:19:28 PM, Installgentoo wrote:
Which one do you think is the best model of the brain? Both models have a number of pros, but they have an equal number of drawbacks too.

What model do you think is right? I am a dualist because I feel it helps explain more psychological traits than physicalism.

Physicalism I guess, although I have never identified as such. The reason is the latter is the only one that provides tangible explanations that are testable. The former seems to be a basic argument ad ignorantum.

Dualism makes testable predictions too, like that there should be a time delay between a mental state and a brain state.

That's a good point, but that doesn't necessarily support Substance Dualism. It does go against Physicalism though.
Magic8000
Posts: 975
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3/11/2014 9:20:20 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Really torn on this subject. Anomalous monism is what I'm currently leaning towards.
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Magic8000
Posts: 975
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3/11/2014 9:52:19 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/11/2014 4:05:41 AM, Sswdwm wrote:
At 3/10/2014 9:19:28 PM, Installgentoo wrote:
Which one do you think is the best model of the brain? Both models have a number of pros, but they have an equal number of drawbacks too.

What model do you think is right? I am a dualist because I feel it helps explain more psychological traits than physicalism.

Physicalism I guess, although I have never identified as such. The reason is the latter is the only one that provides tangible explanations that are testable. The former seems to be a basic argument ad ignorantum.

What kind of physicalism? Reductive or not?
404 coherent debate topic not found. Please restart the debate with clear resolution.

"So Magic8000 believes Einstein was a proctologist who was persuaded by the Government and Hitler to fabricate the Theory of Relativity"- GWL-CPA
zmikecuber
Posts: 4,091
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3/11/2014 9:55:02 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
I'm an eliminative materialist. O.O
"Delete your fvcking sig" -1hard

"primal man had the habit, when he came into contact with fire, of satisfying the infantile desire connected with it, by putting it out with a stream of his urine... Putting out the fire by micturating was therefore a kind of sexual act with a male, an enjoyment of sexual potency in a homosexual competition."
zmikecuber
Posts: 4,091
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3/11/2014 9:55:22 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/10/2014 9:50:40 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 3/10/2014 9:19:28 PM, Installgentoo wrote:
Which one do you think is the best model of the brain? Both models have a number of pros, but they have an equal number of drawbacks too.

What model do you think is right? I am a dualist because I feel it helps explain more psychological traits than physicalism.

Strictly speaking, dualism is not a model of the brain. It's a model of the whole person. The brain is just one aspect of it.

I'm a dualist because two is better than one.

Two captains sink a ship though.
"Delete your fvcking sig" -1hard

"primal man had the habit, when he came into contact with fire, of satisfying the infantile desire connected with it, by putting it out with a stream of his urine... Putting out the fire by micturating was therefore a kind of sexual act with a male, an enjoyment of sexual potency in a homosexual competition."
philochristos
Posts: 2,614
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3/11/2014 10:27:04 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/11/2014 9:55:22 PM, zmikecuber wrote:
At 3/10/2014 9:50:40 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 3/10/2014 9:19:28 PM, Installgentoo wrote:
Which one do you think is the best model of the brain? Both models have a number of pros, but they have an equal number of drawbacks too.

What model do you think is right? I am a dualist because I feel it helps explain more psychological traits than physicalism.

Strictly speaking, dualism is not a model of the brain. It's a model of the whole person. The brain is just one aspect of it.

I'm a dualist because two is better than one.

Two captains sink a ship though.

There are exceptions to every rule.

Except that one. ^^
"Not to know of what things one should demand demonstration, and of what one should not, argues want of education." ~Aristotle

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." ~Aristotle
Evan_Shad
Posts: 22
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3/11/2014 10:40:19 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Looks like this thread is mostly theses and few arguments.

materialists: you will agree that normally, there is this faculty called "perception" that frequently acts as a medium between the external world and the mind. So let's say you're completely right. Why does this medium exist? Could not evolution have just made us come to believe in the existence of whatever is around us, no consciousness/perception involved? Surely perception is just extra genetic baggage, so why did natural selection give us this faculty? It adds nothing to our survival ability. The only explanation appears to be that perception is the only way there could have been a causal correlation between the mind and the external world. This of course makes utterly no sense if the mind is physical.

This argument is elaborated at http://philosophy-and-religion.blogspot.com....
There is also an additional argument at http://philosophy-and-religion.blogspot.com...
YYW
Posts: 36,289
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3/12/2014 1:29:53 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/10/2014 9:19:28 PM, Installgentoo wrote:
Which one do you think is the best model of the brain? Both models have a number of pros, but they have an equal number of drawbacks too.

What model do you think is right? I am a dualist because I feel it helps explain more psychological traits than physicalism.

I think that debate between dualism and physicialism is absurd, because even if the question were to be finally answered, it would still have no meaning beyond the scope of the question itself. Dualism? Physicialism? Show me someone who this matters to, whose life this impacts that is not caught up in the esoteric minutiae of abounding insignificant philosophical argumentation.
Tsar of DDO
zmikecuber
Posts: 4,091
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3/12/2014 9:47:18 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/11/2014 9:55:02 PM, zmikecuber wrote:
I'm an eliminative materialist. O.O

I'm surprised no one was overloaded with endorphins and serotonin dopamines from that comment...
"Delete your fvcking sig" -1hard

"primal man had the habit, when he came into contact with fire, of satisfying the infantile desire connected with it, by putting it out with a stream of his urine... Putting out the fire by micturating was therefore a kind of sexual act with a male, an enjoyment of sexual potency in a homosexual competition."
zmikecuber
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3/12/2014 9:49:46 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/11/2014 10:27:04 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 3/11/2014 9:55:22 PM, zmikecuber wrote:
At 3/10/2014 9:50:40 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 3/10/2014 9:19:28 PM, Installgentoo wrote:
Which one do you think is the best model of the brain? Both models have a number of pros, but they have an equal number of drawbacks too.

What model do you think is right? I am a dualist because I feel it helps explain more psychological traits than physicalism.

Strictly speaking, dualism is not a model of the brain. It's a model of the whole person. The brain is just one aspect of it.

I'm a dualist because two is better than one.

Two captains sink a ship though.

There are exceptions to every rule.

Except that one. ^^

Sounds like latin...... :|
"Delete your fvcking sig" -1hard

"primal man had the habit, when he came into contact with fire, of satisfying the infantile desire connected with it, by putting it out with a stream of his urine... Putting out the fire by micturating was therefore a kind of sexual act with a male, an enjoyment of sexual potency in a homosexual competition."
Magic8000
Posts: 975
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3/12/2014 12:43:12 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/12/2014 9:47:18 AM, zmikecuber wrote:
At 3/11/2014 9:55:02 PM, zmikecuber wrote:
I'm an eliminative materialist. O.O

I'm surprised no one was overloaded with endorphins and serotonin dopamines from that comment...

I was too overloaded to reply to that comment.

Are you joking or are you serious? I thought you were a substance dualist.
404 coherent debate topic not found. Please restart the debate with clear resolution.

"So Magic8000 believes Einstein was a proctologist who was persuaded by the Government and Hitler to fabricate the Theory of Relativity"- GWL-CPA
zmikecuber
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3/12/2014 1:25:42 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/12/2014 12:43:12 PM, Magic8000 wrote:
At 3/12/2014 9:47:18 AM, zmikecuber wrote:
At 3/11/2014 9:55:02 PM, zmikecuber wrote:
I'm an eliminative materialist. O.O

I'm surprised no one was overloaded with endorphins and serotonin dopamines from that comment...

I was too overloaded to reply to that comment.

Are you joking or are you serious? I thought you were a substance dualist.

Nah, I'm kidding. The Churchlands crack me up... :P I don't really have a worked out philosophy of mind position. I don't like substance dualism, and sympathize with hylomorphism, but that seems to entail epiphenomenalism... I also like idealism. I'm pretty much an idealist from an epistemological sense, and very idealistic in a metaphysical sense.
"Delete your fvcking sig" -1hard

"primal man had the habit, when he came into contact with fire, of satisfying the infantile desire connected with it, by putting it out with a stream of his urine... Putting out the fire by micturating was therefore a kind of sexual act with a male, an enjoyment of sexual potency in a homosexual competition."
Magic8000
Posts: 975
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3/12/2014 1:43:26 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/12/2014 1:25:42 PM, zmikecuber wrote:
At 3/12/2014 12:43:12 PM, Magic8000 wrote:
At 3/12/2014 9:47:18 AM, zmikecuber wrote:
At 3/11/2014 9:55:02 PM, zmikecuber wrote:
I'm an eliminative materialist. O.O

I'm surprised no one was overloaded with endorphins and serotonin dopamines from that comment...

I was too overloaded to reply to that comment.

Are you joking or are you serious? I thought you were a substance dualist.

Nah, I'm kidding. The Churchlands crack me up... :P I don't really have a worked out philosophy of mind position. I don't like substance dualism, and sympathize with hylomorphism, but that seems to entail epiphenomenalism... I also like idealism. I'm pretty much an idealist from an epistemological sense, and very idealistic in a metaphysical sense.

Haha. If I remember correctly, the Churchland's argument was that one day science will support them.
404 coherent debate topic not found. Please restart the debate with clear resolution.

"So Magic8000 believes Einstein was a proctologist who was persuaded by the Government and Hitler to fabricate the Theory of Relativity"- GWL-CPA