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American Atheists trying to remove WTC Cross

ZMowlcher
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3/19/2014 9:13:59 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
I think they're going too far with this. I'm also at a lost for words. Can't anyone show some respect nowadays?
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Magic8000
Posts: 975
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3/19/2014 11:22:20 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Why? Not everyone that died there was a Cristian. There were Muslims and Jews that died there too. Your profile says you're agnostic, so what if you died and I put an ancient Egyptian religious symbol on your grave?

I don't believe the AA are doing this because it's a cross. I believe they're doing this because it's disrespectful to all the Atheists, Muslims, and Jews that died there.
404 coherent debate topic not found. Please restart the debate with clear resolution.

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Rational_Thinker9119
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3/19/2014 11:35:33 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/19/2014 9:13:59 AM, ZMowlcher wrote:
I think they're going too far with this. I'm also at a lost for words. Can't anyone show some respect nowadays?

Ummm leaving the cross would be disrespectful, because not everyone who died was Christian. There should be something that covers all basis, not something that is exclusive to only one religion.
ZMowlcher
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3/20/2014 9:34:23 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/19/2014 11:22:20 AM, Magic8000 wrote:
Why? Not everyone that died there was a Cristian. There were Muslims and Jews that died there too. Your profile says you're agnostic, so what if you died and I put an ancient Egyptian religious symbol on your grave?

I don't believe the AA are doing this because it's a cross. I believe they're doing this because it's disrespectful to all the Atheists, Muslims, and Jews that died there.

They're trying to remove something that gave millions of people comfort in a time of crisis. It's a piece of cross beam that has been used as a spiritual icon for everyone. It helped people find comfort. It's something that shouldn't be taken away. There's also going to be a memoriam dedicated to all those who died there.
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ZMowlcher
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3/20/2014 9:39:23 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/19/2014 11:35:33 AM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/19/2014 9:13:59 AM, ZMowlcher wrote:
I think they're going too far with this. I'm also at a lost for words. Can't anyone show some respect nowadays?

Ummm leaving the cross would be disrespectful, because not everyone who died was Christian. There should be something that covers all basis, not something that is exclusive to only one religion.

Crosses aren't just Christian symbols. Hinduism, Pagan, Greek: All these used the cross in some form or other. The cross was used for people to find some comfort in a horrible moment in history. It shouldn't go anywhere.
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andymcstab
Posts: 308
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3/20/2014 10:40:54 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
re "its disrespectful to atheists".
atheists have no belief system, do they? on what basis would they positively object to the cross, then? Why should their belief, which they claim is only an absence of belief, overrule then thousands of Christians who positively believe, and would appreciate a cross?
bladerunner060
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3/20/2014 12:01:57 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/20/2014 10:40:54 AM, andymcstab wrote:
re "its disrespectful to atheists".
atheists have no belief system, do they? on what basis would they positively object to the cross, then? Why should their belief, which they claim is only an absence of belief, overrule then thousands of Christians who positively believe, and would appreciate a cross?

Because it ignores those who don't believe, and implies that there are only believers. Which marginalizes those who don't believe.
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andymcstab
Posts: 308
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3/20/2014 12:30:48 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
but those who don't believe shouldnt care either way. on what doctrine should they care? what does it take to blaspheme against atheism? Can you blaspheme against something which is not a religion?
SkepticalStardust
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3/20/2014 12:41:28 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/20/2014 10:40:54 AM, andymcstab wrote:
re "its disrespectful to atheists".
atheists have no belief system, do they? on what basis would they positively object to the cross, then? Why should their belief, which they claim is only an absence of belief, overrule then thousands of Christians who positively believe, and would appreciate a cross?

I object on the same basis that I would object to having an electric chair or a statue of Zeus placed in its place. It wouldn't matter to me if the majority of those who died believed the son of their god was executed in an electric chair or believed in Zeus. I object in the same way that you would object to any other religious symbol. I just want one less religious symbol there than you do.

I don't object to people wearing tiny crucifixes on necklaces or hanging them like pictures in their houses. I object when they're used to lump non-Christians into a Christian category. Once again, think about how you would feel if it were a star and crescent.
That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence." " Christopher Hitchens
SkepticalStardust
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3/20/2014 12:51:38 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/20/2014 12:30:48 PM, andymcstab wrote:
but those who don't believe shouldnt care either way. on what doctrine should they care? what does it take to blaspheme against atheism? Can you blaspheme against something which is not a religion?

It's not blasphemy, but it's insulting to the memory of the dead. I have sympathy for the dead and their friends and family. You don't need religion to find a certain sacredness in things.
That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence." " Christopher Hitchens
SkepticalStardust
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3/20/2014 1:14:01 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/20/2014 9:39:23 AM, ZMowlcher wrote:
At 3/19/2014 11:35:33 AM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/19/2014 9:13:59 AM, ZMowlcher wrote:
I think they're going too far with this. I'm also at a lost for words. Can't anyone show some respect nowadays?

Ummm leaving the cross would be disrespectful, because not everyone who died was Christian. There should be something that covers all basis, not something that is exclusive to only one religion.

Crosses aren't just Christian symbols. Hinduism, Pagan, Greek: All these used the cross in some form or other. The cross was used for people to find some comfort in a horrible moment in history. It shouldn't go anywhere.

Crosses in today's U.S. represent Christianity. You can also argue that the swastika means different things, but I can reasonably infer that one is affiliated with some kind of neo-Nazi Party and/or racist group if they're wear a swastika armband in today's U.S.

If inductive reasoning didn't work, then humans would be around today. Don't ignore induction.
That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence." " Christopher Hitchens
Magic8000
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3/20/2014 3:36:25 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/20/2014 9:34:23 AM, ZMowlcher wrote:
At 3/19/2014 11:22:20 AM, Magic8000 wrote:
Why? Not everyone that died there was a Cristian. There were Muslims and Jews that died there too. Your profile says you're agnostic, so what if you died and I put an ancient Egyptian religious symbol on your grave?

I don't believe the AA are doing this because it's a cross. I believe they're doing this because it's disrespectful to all the Atheists, Muslims, and Jews that died there.

They're trying to remove something that gave millions of people comfort in a time of crisis. It's a piece of cross beam that has been used as a spiritual icon for everyone. It helped people find comfort. It's something that shouldn't be taken away. There's also going to be a memoriam dedicated to all those who died there.

If it gave millions of people comfort to piss on my dead body, that doesn't mean we should do it because it is disrespectful to me and my family. It may give millions comfort, but it still disrespects millions that are secular, jewish or islamic. Why favor the comfort of some group instead of the whole? Why not put many religous symbols up?
404 coherent debate topic not found. Please restart the debate with clear resolution.

"So Magic8000 believes Einstein was a proctologist who was persuaded by the Government and Hitler to fabricate the Theory of Relativity"- GWL-CPA
Sidewalker
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3/20/2014 3:58:30 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/19/2014 11:35:33 AM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/19/2014 9:13:59 AM, ZMowlcher wrote:
I think they're going too far with this. I'm also at a lost for words. Can't anyone show some respect nowadays?

Ummm leaving the cross would be disrespectful, because not everyone who died was Christian.

Ummm....you'd have to be a moron to interpret it to mean that, do you really think it should be removed because complete idiots might be stupid enough to think that is what it means?

There should be something that covers all basis, not something that is exclusive to only one religion.

There is plenty there to cover all bases, the names of everyone that died in the attacks are displayed on the memorial, and the memorial was designed by an Israeli architect named Michael Arad, and the Jewish Anti-Defamation League officially supports the display of the cross at the site and U.S. District Judge Deborah Batts ruled that it does not amount to an endorsement of Christianity. The Establishment Clause doesn't prohibit the government from displaying religious objects in a museum, so there is no legal basis for removal of the cross.

The fact is, other religious symbols, such as a Star of David, are on display at the 9/11 Memorial and Museum. Because the attack was done by Muslim extremists, displaying Islamic symbols has been controversial and challenged, but Park 51 is an Islamic Community Center and prayer space two built blocks away that was established to support interfaith dialog and it does provide memorial services for the Muslims that died in the 9/11 event.

A poll taken showed 72 percent of the public support the display of the 911 Cross at the WTC Memorial. If Atheists feel slighted, they can look at the survivor trees at the memorial, or the names of all who died on 911, or just don't go, but it's really stupid to think the presence of religious symbols at the site is somehow infringing on their rights or freedoms. It's this kind of hostility and extremist "us/them" thinking that brought the twin towers down in the first place, these effort couldn't be more misguided.

The point of the memorial museum is to display meaningful things that had a significant impact on people after the tragedy, it's about the history of the event and what happened in the aftermath What the event represents most clearly is that the WTC tragedy brought people together towards a common goal that transcended such petty divisiveness. First responders of every faith, Christians, Muslims, Atheists, Jews, and Hindus came to their brother's aid that day. The WTC Memorial is an historical exhibition and that cross has a significant history and symbolism as part of the memorial.
"It is one of the commonest of mistakes to consider that the limit of our power of perception is also the limit of all there is to perceive." " C. W. Leadbeater
andymcstab
Posts: 308
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3/20/2014 4:08:34 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Why is it insulting? Would you be insulted by a toddler blessing your coffin with a fairy flag or something, just because you don't believe in faries? It is the thought that matters, and there is nothing offensive in the thought.
andymcstab
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3/20/2014 4:09:02 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
thats in reply to "It's not blasphemy, but it's insulting to the memory of the dead. I have sympathy for the dead and their friends and family. You don't need religion to find a certain sacredness in things."
Sidewalker
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3/20/2014 4:49:40 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/20/2014 12:01:57 PM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 3/20/2014 10:40:54 AM, andymcstab wrote:
re "its disrespectful to atheists".
atheists have no belief system, do they? on what basis would they positively object to the cross, then? Why should their belief, which they claim is only an absence of belief, overrule then thousands of Christians who positively believe, and would appreciate a cross?

Because it ignores those who don't believe, and implies that there are only believers. Which marginalizes those who don't believe.

Anybody stupid enough to assume that all three thousand that died on 9/11 were Christians because they see a cross at the memorial are probably too stupid to find the memorial anyway.

Anybody that dumb will probably end up wandering around Central Park thinking the Memorial Park looks a lot bigger in person than in the pictures.
"It is one of the commonest of mistakes to consider that the limit of our power of perception is also the limit of all there is to perceive." " C. W. Leadbeater
Sidewalker
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3/20/2014 5:19:28 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/20/2014 3:36:25 PM, Magic8000 wrote:
At 3/20/2014 9:34:23 AM, ZMowlcher wrote:
At 3/19/2014 11:22:20 AM, Magic8000 wrote:
Why? Not everyone that died there was a Cristian. There were Muslims and Jews that died there too. Your profile says you're agnostic, so what if you died and I put an ancient Egyptian religious symbol on your grave?

I don't believe the AA are doing this because it's a cross. I believe they're doing this because it's disrespectful to all the Atheists, Muslims, and Jews that died there.

They're trying to remove something that gave millions of people comfort in a time of crisis. It's a piece of cross beam that has been used as a spiritual icon for everyone. It helped people find comfort. It's something that shouldn't be taken away. There's also going to be a memoriam dedicated to all those who died there.

If it gave millions of people comfort to piss on my dead body, that doesn't mean we should do it because it is disrespectful to me and my family. It may give millions comfort, but it still disrespects millions that are secular, jewish or islamic. Why favor the comfort of some group instead of the whole? Why not put many religous symbols up?

Good idea, in fact, that's probably why they did just that, the 911 Cross is not the only religious symbol at the memorial, there's also a Jewish prayer shawl contributed by a victim"s family member, a Star of David cut from WTC steel by ironworkers and a Bible fused to a piece of steel that was found during recovery efforts. It's a memorial museum, and these symbols help tell the story of what happened as a result of the attack and recovery effort.

Maybe they should include a statue of a crying baby to provide solace for atheists who might be offended by the presence of religious symbols at a memorial site for 3000 dead.
"It is one of the commonest of mistakes to consider that the limit of our power of perception is also the limit of all there is to perceive." " C. W. Leadbeater
bladerunner060
Posts: 7,126
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3/20/2014 5:32:39 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/20/2014 4:49:40 PM, Sidewalker wrote:
At 3/20/2014 12:01:57 PM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 3/20/2014 10:40:54 AM, andymcstab wrote:
re "its disrespectful to atheists".
atheists have no belief system, do they? on what basis would they positively object to the cross, then? Why should their belief, which they claim is only an absence of belief, overrule then thousands of Christians who positively believe, and would appreciate a cross?

Because it ignores those who don't believe, and implies that there are only believers. Which marginalizes those who don't believe.

Anybody stupid enough to assume that all three thousand that died on 9/11 were Christians because they see a cross at the memorial are probably too stupid to find the memorial anyway.

That rather completely misses the point.

The point is that having a cross makes a special class of remembered victim: the christians. It either implies that they are the only victims or, as you note, they were not the only victims--but they're the only ones to get pointed out at the memorial.

The memorial is either for all the victims, or only some of them. By putting one religion's symbol up, you're making it only for them and, as I have said, marginalizing the others.

Anybody that dumb will probably end up wandering around Central Park thinking the Memorial Park looks a lot bigger in person than in the pictures.
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Sidewalker
Posts: 3,713
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3/20/2014 6:00:49 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/20/2014 5:32:39 PM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 3/20/2014 4:49:40 PM, Sidewalker wrote:
At 3/20/2014 12:01:57 PM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 3/20/2014 10:40:54 AM, andymcstab wrote:
re "its disrespectful to atheists".
atheists have no belief system, do they? on what basis would they positively object to the cross, then? Why should their belief, which they claim is only an absence of belief, overrule then thousands of Christians who positively believe, and would appreciate a cross?

Because it ignores those who don't believe, and implies that there are only believers. Which marginalizes those who don't believe.

Anybody stupid enough to assume that all three thousand that died on 9/11 were Christians because they see a cross at the memorial are probably too stupid to find the memorial anyway.

That rather completely misses the point.

The point is that having a cross makes a special class of remembered victim: the christians. It either implies that they are the only victims or, as you note, they were not the only victims--but they're the only ones to get pointed out at the memorial.

The memorial is either for all the victims, or only some of them. By putting one religion's symbol up, you're making it only for them and, as I have said, marginalizing the others.

But they didn't only put one religion's symbol up, and Christians aren't the only ones to get "pointed out" at the memorial by any stretch of the imagination.

The names of every single person that died is prominently displayed, the fact is everybody was "pointed out", and nobody was marginalized.

It's a memorial museum, it is telling a story and that cross played a significant historical role in the story being told, just as the Jewish prayer shawl, the Star of David, and the Bible fused to steel that are also being displayed do. Had a bunch of atheists stood around an atom symbol to give them strength during rescue efforts I'm sure that would be included, but that just didn't happen, get over it.

Do you guys want to rewrite the story because you don't like the way people responded to the tragedy? Sorry, but you don't get to do that.

By the way, the memorial was only partially funded by the government, a lot of private donations went into funding the memorial too, and even if that weren't the case, the Establishment clause doesn't prohibit the display of religious artifacts in government funded museums. Either way the law suit is baseless, and the reasoning behind it is mostly just stupid.

Anybody that dumb will probably end up wandering around Central Park thinking the Memorial Park looks a lot bigger in person than in the pictures.
"It is one of the commonest of mistakes to consider that the limit of our power of perception is also the limit of all there is to perceive." " C. W. Leadbeater
bladerunner060
Posts: 7,126
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3/20/2014 6:09:06 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/20/2014 6:00:49 PM, Sidewalker wrote:
At 3/20/2014 5:32:39 PM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 3/20/2014 4:49:40 PM, Sidewalker wrote:
At 3/20/2014 12:01:57 PM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 3/20/2014 10:40:54 AM, andymcstab wrote:
re "its disrespectful to atheists".
atheists have no belief system, do they? on what basis would they positively object to the cross, then? Why should their belief, which they claim is only an absence of belief, overrule then thousands of Christians who positively believe, and would appreciate a cross?

Because it ignores those who don't believe, and implies that there are only believers. Which marginalizes those who don't believe.

Anybody stupid enough to assume that all three thousand that died on 9/11 were Christians because they see a cross at the memorial are probably too stupid to find the memorial anyway.

That rather completely misses the point.

The point is that having a cross makes a special class of remembered victim: the christians. It either implies that they are the only victims or, as you note, they were not the only victims--but they're the only ones to get pointed out at the memorial.

The memorial is either for all the victims, or only some of them. By putting one religion's symbol up, you're making it only for them and, as I have said, marginalizing the others.

But they didn't only put one religion's symbol up, and Christians aren't the only ones to get "pointed out" at the memorial by any stretch of the imagination.

Really? So they put up a 20-foot icon from every religion?

The names of every single person that died is prominently displayed, the fact is everybody was "pointed out", and nobody was marginalized.

Again, this has nothing to do with the point.

It's a memorial museum, it is telling a story and that cross played a significant historical role in the story being told, just as the Jewish prayer shawl, the Star of David, and the Bible fused to steel that are also being displayed do. Had a bunch of atheists stood around an atom symbol to give them strength during rescue efforts I'm sure that would be included, but that just didn't happen, get over it.

There is nothing about the cross that has anything to do with the story, but that's a fantastic attempt to dodge the issue at hand.

Do you guys want to rewrite the story because you don't like the way people responded to the tragedy? Sorry, but you don't get to do that.

Neither do you.

By the way, the memorial was only partially funded by the government, a lot of private donations went into funding the memorial too, and even if that weren't the case, the Establishment clause doesn't prohibit the display of religious artifacts in government funded museums. Either way the law suit is baseless, and the reasoning behind it is mostly just stupid.

No, it doesn't--and I never argued it did. Are you purposefully missing the point, or do you really not understand the difference between "religious artifacts" and "a 20-foot cross prominently displayed".

I actually recognize that there MAY be justification on historical grounds for the thing. But to pretend there are no possible issues with it is absurd.
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Sidewalker
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3/20/2014 6:10:37 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
The fact is that the American Atheists are simply exploiting the victims of the WTC tragedy in an effort to further their agenda.

The American Atheists are the ones disrespecting the people who died, all of them, the religious and atheists alike.
"It is one of the commonest of mistakes to consider that the limit of our power of perception is also the limit of all there is to perceive." " C. W. Leadbeater
Sidewalker
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3/20/2014 6:33:46 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/20/2014 6:09:06 PM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 3/20/2014 6:00:49 PM, Sidewalker wrote:
At 3/20/2014 5:32:39 PM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 3/20/2014 4:49:40 PM, Sidewalker wrote:
At 3/20/2014 12:01:57 PM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 3/20/2014 10:40:54 AM, andymcstab wrote:
re "its disrespectful to atheists".
atheists have no belief system, do they? on what basis would they positively object to the cross, then? Why should their belief, which they claim is only an absence of belief, overrule then thousands of Christians who positively believe, and would appreciate a cross?

Because it ignores those who don't believe, and implies that there are only believers. Which marginalizes those who don't believe.

Anybody stupid enough to assume that all three thousand that died on 9/11 were Christians because they see a cross at the memorial are probably too stupid to find the memorial anyway.

That rather completely misses the point.

The point is that having a cross makes a special class of remembered victim: the christians. It either implies that they are the only victims or, as you note, they were not the only victims--but they're the only ones to get pointed out at the memorial.

The memorial is either for all the victims, or only some of them. By putting one religion's symbol up, you're making it only for them and, as I have said, marginalizing the others.

But they didn't only put one religion's symbol up, and Christians aren't the only ones to get "pointed out" at the memorial by any stretch of the imagination.

Really? So they put up a 20-foot icon from every religion?

Why on earth would they do that?

The names of every single person that died is prominently displayed, the fact is everybody was "pointed out", and nobody was marginalized.

Again, this has nothing to do with the point.

Apparently you don't know what the point of a memorial is.

It's a memorial museum, it is telling a story and that cross played a significant historical role in the story being told, just as the Jewish prayer shawl, the Star of David, and the Bible fused to steel that are also being displayed do. Had a bunch of atheists stood around an atom symbol to give them strength during rescue efforts I'm sure that would be included, but that just didn't happen, get over it.

There is nothing about the cross that has anything to do with the story, but that's a fantastic attempt to dodge the issue at hand.

Then you have no idea what you are talking about, maybe you should go learn something about this cross that is being displayed...I think you are making a very un-fantastic attempt to appear to know something about the issue you are blathering about.

Do you guys want to rewrite the story because you don't like the way people responded to the tragedy? Sorry, but you don't get to do that.

Neither do you.

I'm not, that cross has a significant history and deep meaning for a lot of people, it memorializes what actually happened during rescue efforts.

By the way, the memorial was only partially funded by the government, a lot of private donations went into funding the memorial too, and even if that weren't the case, the Establishment clause doesn't prohibit the display of religious artifacts in government funded museums. Either way the law suit is baseless, and the reasoning behind it is mostly just stupid.

No, it doesn't--and I never argued it did. Are you purposefully missing the point, or do you really not understand the difference between "religious artifacts" and "a 20-foot cross prominently displayed".

You think it should be resized? You don't really get the whole museum concept do you? They can't make the cross smaller, and they can't make the prayer shawl bigger, museums don't actually do that sort of thing.

I actually recognize that there MAY be justification on historical grounds for the thing. But to pretend there are no possible issues with it is absurd.

I'm not saying there are no possible issues, idiots can take issue with anything, and they usually do....but the American Atheists are going to get their asses handed to them on this inane lawsuit....they just don't have a case.
"It is one of the commonest of mistakes to consider that the limit of our power of perception is also the limit of all there is to perceive." " C. W. Leadbeater
medv4380
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3/20/2014 6:48:01 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
It's ridiculous that they would even try. The WTC "cross" is merely iconified debris. A building like that is made out of a lot of "crosses". Do atheists complain about every skyscraper now because they're all made out of "crosses"? No, unless they're crazy. To some it's going to be a religious symbol of hope and survival, other just a symbol of hope and survival, and yet other a symbol of a disaster. Are atheist going to complain about every hospital because it has the staff of Hermes for the medical logo, or whine to the supreme court that they have the Goddess Lady Justice on public property?

The American Atheists Organization shouldn't even be considered "atheists" rather they're just trolls trying to get people to publicly hate atheists in general to justify their victimization complex.
Pitbull15
Posts: 479
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3/20/2014 7:14:17 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/19/2014 9:13:59 AM, ZMowlcher wrote:
I think they're going too far with this. I'm also at a lost for words. Can't anyone show some respect nowadays?

Great... More Anti-theists trying to push their agenda.

This is what I hear coming out of their mouths whenever they try to justify this.

"WHAT! A CROSS! NOOOOOOOOOO! CROSSES ARE EVIL AND GOD DOESS NOT EXIST BECAUSE GOD AND RELEGON WILL OFFEND OTHER PEOPLE EVEN IF IT ISNT GOVERNMENT SANCTIONED!!!1111!!11! WE CANNOT HAVE A SINGLE DISPLAY OF RELEGON BECAUSE THAT IS ABSOLUTELY POSIIVELY PREPOSTEROUS AND WE HAVE NEVER HEARD OF THAT HAPPENING BEFORE AND CROSSES AND RELEGONS IS BAD!!11!111 OH THE HORROR YOU EVIL RELIGIOUS PEOPLE ARE GOING TO OFFEND OTHERS SO WE'RE GOING TO TAKE DOWN THIS CROSS WITHOUT GIVING A SH*T ABOUT YOUR RIGHT TO EXPRESS YOUR BELIEFS!!!!111 YOU SHALL NOT EXPRESS YOUR RELIGION ANYWHERE AT ANYTIME BECAUSE RELIGION OFFENDS PEOPLE AND WE'D RATHER REMOVE ALL RELIGION EVERYWHERE RATHER THAN RESPECT OTHER PEOPLE!!!11!!!1111111"

The cross wasn't put there by the government and it wasn't even on government property. You might as well be demanding that the churches be taken down. There's simply no good reason to take down a memorial cross legally or morally outside of offending like 10 people that aren't a part of these organizations.
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Pitbull15
Posts: 479
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3/20/2014 7:19:53 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/20/2014 6:09:06 PM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 3/20/2014 6:00:49 PM, Sidewalker wrote:
At 3/20/2014 5:32:39 PM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 3/20/2014 4:49:40 PM, Sidewalker wrote:
At 3/20/2014 12:01:57 PM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 3/20/2014 10:40:54 AM, andymcstab wrote:
re "its disrespectful to atheists".
atheists have no belief system, do they? on what basis would they positively object to the cross, then? Why should their belief, which they claim is only an absence of belief, overrule then thousands of Christians who positively believe, and would appreciate a cross?

Because it ignores those who don't believe, and implies that there are only believers. Which marginalizes those who don't believe.

Anybody stupid enough to assume that all three thousand that died on 9/11 were Christians because they see a cross at the memorial are probably too stupid to find the memorial anyway.

That rather completely misses the point.

The point is that having a cross makes a special class of remembered victim: the christians. It either implies that they are the only victims or, as you note, they were not the only victims--but they're the only ones to get pointed out at the memorial.

The memorial is either for all the victims, or only some of them. By putting one religion's symbol up, you're making it only for them and, as I have said, marginalizing the others.

But they didn't only put one religion's symbol up, and Christians aren't the only ones to get "pointed out" at the memorial by any stretch of the imagination.

Really? So they put up a 20-foot icon from every religion?

The names of every single person that died is prominently displayed, the fact is everybody was "pointed out", and nobody was marginalized.

Again, this has nothing to do with the point.

It's a memorial museum, it is telling a story and that cross played a significant historical role in the story being told, just as the Jewish prayer shawl, the Star of David, and the Bible fused to steel that are also being displayed do. Had a bunch of atheists stood around an atom symbol to give them strength during rescue efforts I'm sure that would be included, but that just didn't happen, get over it.

There is nothing about the cross that has anything to do with the story, but that's a fantastic attempt to dodge the issue at hand.

Do you guys want to rewrite the story because you don't like the way people responded to the tragedy? Sorry, but you don't get to do that.

Neither do you.

By the way, the memorial was only partially funded by the government, a lot of private donations went into funding the memorial too, and even if that weren't the case, the Establishment clause doesn't prohibit the display of religious artifacts in government funded museums. Either way the law suit is baseless, and the reasoning behind it is mostly just stupid.

No, it doesn't--and I never argued it did. Are you purposefully missing the point, or do you really not understand the difference between "religious artifacts" and "a 20-foot cross prominently displayed".

I actually recognize that there MAY be justification on historical grounds for the thing. But to pretend there are no possible issues with it is absurd.

What's absurd is trying to justify an anti-theist organization's removal of a memorial. Have you noticed that hardly anyone else cares except for these people? The cross wasn't government sanctioned and it wasn't on government property, so there is no grounds at all for removing the cross, morally or legally. Do you have a problem with all the offensive billboards American Atheists put up all the time? If you don't, then what's your problem with a cross?
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Ore_Ele
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3/20/2014 7:25:56 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/19/2014 11:22:20 AM, Magic8000 wrote:
Why? Not everyone that died there was a Cristian. There were Muslims and Jews that died there too. Your profile says you're agnostic, so what if you died and I put an ancient Egyptian religious symbol on your grave?

I don't believe the AA are doing this because it's a cross. I believe they're doing this because it's disrespectful to all the Atheists, Muslims, and Jews that died there.

A religious symbol for someone else is not disrespectful to you. There should be the availability for anyone to have their beliefs represented at the site. It is disrespectful to tell people that they cannot honor their dead in their own way (within reason).
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thett3
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3/20/2014 7:27:47 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/19/2014 11:22:20 AM, Magic8000 wrote:
Why? Not everyone that died there was a Cristian. There were Muslims and Jews that died there too. Your profile says you're agnostic, so what if you died and I put an ancient Egyptian religious symbol on your grave?

I don't believe the AA are doing this because it's a cross. I believe they're doing this because it's disrespectful to all the Atheists, Muslims, and Jews that died there.

It was a piece of metal wreckage that happened the shape of a cross. It is historically significant in that it brought comfort to millions of people for whatever reason and is in the 9/11 memorial museum because of it's historical significance. It's not an endorsement of Christianity, rather it's a part of history that should be there. So, is your position that any museum piece that makes reference to religion ought to be removed?
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SeventhProfessor
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3/20/2014 8:18:19 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/20/2014 7:25:56 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 3/19/2014 11:22:20 AM, Magic8000 wrote:
Why? Not everyone that died there was a Cristian. There were Muslims and Jews that died there too. Your profile says you're agnostic, so what if you died and I put an ancient Egyptian religious symbol on your grave?

I don't believe the AA are doing this because it's a cross. I believe they're doing this because it's disrespectful to all the Atheists, Muslims, and Jews that died there.

A religious symbol for someone else is not disrespectful to you. There should be the availability for anyone to have their beliefs represented at the site. It is disrespectful to tell people that they cannot honor their dead in their own way (within reason).

You're so close...
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bladerunner060
Posts: 7,126
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3/20/2014 8:20:39 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/20/2014 6:33:46 PM, Sidewalker wrote:
At 3/20/2014 6:09:06 PM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 3/20/2014 6:00:49 PM, Sidewalker wrote:
At 3/20/2014 5:32:39 PM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 3/20/2014 4:49:40 PM, Sidewalker wrote:
At 3/20/2014 12:01:57 PM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 3/20/2014 10:40:54 AM, andymcstab wrote:
re "its disrespectful to atheists".
atheists have no belief system, do they? on what basis would they positively object to the cross, then? Why should their belief, which they claim is only an absence of belief, overrule then thousands of Christians who positively believe, and would appreciate a cross?

Because it ignores those who don't believe, and implies that there are only believers. Which marginalizes those who don't believe.

Anybody stupid enough to assume that all three thousand that died on 9/11 were Christians because they see a cross at the memorial are probably too stupid to find the memorial anyway.

That rather completely misses the point.

The point is that having a cross makes a special class of remembered victim: the christians. It either implies that they are the only victims or, as you note, they were not the only victims--but they're the only ones to get pointed out at the memorial.

The memorial is either for all the victims, or only some of them. By putting one religion's symbol up, you're making it only for them and, as I have said, marginalizing the others.

But they didn't only put one religion's symbol up, and Christians aren't the only ones to get "pointed out" at the memorial by any stretch of the imagination.

Really? So they put up a 20-foot icon from every religion?

Why on earth would they do that?

So they just want to put up a 20-foot icon from ONE religion. But that's not showing preferential treatment.


The names of every single person that died is prominently displayed, the fact is everybody was "pointed out", and nobody was marginalized.

Again, this has nothing to do with the point.

Apparently you don't know what the point of a memorial is.

No, I do. Apparently, you don't know what the point of the complaint is.

It's a memorial museum, it is telling a story and that cross played a significant historical role in the story being told, just as the Jewish prayer shawl, the Star of David, and the Bible fused to steel that are also being displayed do. Had a bunch of atheists stood around an atom symbol to give them strength during rescue efforts I'm sure that would be included, but that just didn't happen, get over it.

There is nothing about the cross that has anything to do with the story, but that's a fantastic attempt to dodge the issue at hand.

Then you have no idea what you are talking about, maybe you should go learn something about this cross that is being displayed...I think you are making a very un-fantastic attempt to appear to know something about the issue you are blathering about.

Ah, yes. The "I can assert things and back them up not at all, then arrogantly proclaim anyone who disagrees is wrong and ignorant" tack.

For the record, no rescuers used the cross to "give them strength". A guy found a couple steel girders. He cut a cross from them. It became an icon of sorts to those who were on the site, yes. Then it got moved. It was a shrine and tourist attraction thereafter. I suppose that "nothing to do" is a bit unfair of me. But then--they aren't putting the arc-welders and construction equipment that actually helped them in the memorial, now, are they?

Do you guys want to rewrite the story because you don't like the way people responded to the tragedy? Sorry, but you don't get to do that.

Neither do you.

I'm not, that cross has a significant history and deep meaning for a lot of people, it memorializes what actually happened during rescue efforts.

Not at all, actually. Again: it was cut specifically to be in the shape of a cross and, considering the majority of people in this country are, after all, christian, got whipped up as being far more meaningful than it actually was.

By the way, the memorial was only partially funded by the government, a lot of private donations went into funding the memorial too, and even if that weren't the case, the Establishment clause doesn't prohibit the display of religious artifacts in government funded museums. Either way the law suit is baseless, and the reasoning behind it is mostly just stupid.

No, it doesn't--and I never argued it did. Are you purposefully missing the point, or do you really not understand the difference between "religious artifacts" and "a 20-foot cross prominently displayed".

You think it should be resized? You don't really get the whole museum concept do you? They can't make the cross smaller, and they can't make the prayer shawl bigger, museums don't actually do that sort of thing.

Memorial, not museum. Don't equivocate.

I actually recognize that there MAY be justification on historical grounds for the thing. But to pretend there are no possible issues with it is absurd.

I'm not saying there are no possible issues, idiots can take issue with anything, and they usually do....but the American Atheists are going to get their asses handed to them on this inane lawsuit....they just don't have a case.

It wasn't thrown out of court as utterly baseless. Therefore they have at least some measure of a case. I think it's good to have the discussion, rather than knee-jerk pretending it automatically goes in. They aren't suing about the bible, after all, or the prayer shawl. They're suing about the 20-foot-tall cross, as being too excessive.
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bladerunner060
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3/20/2014 8:21:45 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/20/2014 6:33:46 PM, Sidewalker wrote:

I spoke in error. It's memorial and museum. Apologies.
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