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Somewhat of a moral dilemma

Rational_Thinker9119
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3/21/2014 9:05:11 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
The show Dexter is about a serial killer, but he lives by a code that he only kills people who kill innocent people, and sometimes rapists and what not. His moral code is that he never kills an innocent, and he rids the world of the bad.

Is he morally good because he takes our the trash for society, or evil because he is a serial killer?
zmikecuber
Posts: 4,091
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3/21/2014 9:58:06 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/21/2014 9:05:11 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
The show Dexter is about a serial killer, but he lives by a code that he only kills people who kill innocent people, and sometimes rapists and what not. His moral code is that he never kills an innocent, and he rids the world of the bad.

Is he morally good because he takes our the trash for society, or evil because he is a serial killer?

His motives are good, but I'm not a fan of vigilantism. Yes, I think these people should probably get the death penalty. However, I think that's the position of the government, which has the right to execute someone from God. I don't see it as an individuals place to go around casting judgment on people.
"Delete your fvcking sig" -1hard

"primal man had the habit, when he came into contact with fire, of satisfying the infantile desire connected with it, by putting it out with a stream of his urine... Putting out the fire by micturating was therefore a kind of sexual act with a male, an enjoyment of sexual potency in a homosexual competition."
Rational_Thinker9119
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3/21/2014 10:12:53 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/21/2014 9:58:06 PM, zmikecuber wrote:
At 3/21/2014 9:05:11 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
The show Dexter is about a serial killer, but he lives by a code that he only kills people who kill innocent people, and sometimes rapists and what not. His moral code is that he never kills an innocent, and he rids the world of the bad.

Is he morally good because he takes our the trash for society, or evil because he is a serial killer?

His motives are good, but I'm not a fan of vigilantism. Yes, I think these people should probably get the death penalty. However, I think that's the position of the government, which has the right to execute someone from God. I don't see it as an individuals place to go around casting judgment on people.

Lol at buying into the BS that the government gets the right from God. They just say that... Also, the government has the right to allow homosexuals to marry, did they get that from God as well?
Rational_Thinker9119
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3/21/2014 10:13:49 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/21/2014 9:58:06 PM, zmikecuber wrote:
At 3/21/2014 9:05:11 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
The show Dexter is about a serial killer, but he lives by a code that he only kills people who kill innocent people, and sometimes rapists and what not. His moral code is that he never kills an innocent, and he rids the world of the bad.

Is he morally good because he takes our the trash for society, or evil because he is a serial killer?

His motives are good, but I'm not a fan of vigilantism. Yes, I think these people should probably get the death penalty. However, I think that's the position of the government, which has the right to execute someone from God. I don't see it as an individuals place to go around casting judgment on people.

We have no idea whether or not God sanctions the governments actions. If you are honest with yourself at least...
bladerunner060
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3/21/2014 11:33:09 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/21/2014 9:05:11 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
The show Dexter is about a serial killer, but he lives by a code that he only kills people who kill innocent people, and sometimes rapists and what not. His moral code is that he never kills an innocent, and he rids the world of the bad.

Is he morally good because he takes our the trash for society, or evil because he is a serial killer?

I would say it was morally good--but incredibly dangerous. If someone catches someone who's raping or killing someone, I don't think we'd fault him too much. As soon as he kills someone who isn't a monster, he's killed an innocent person, which makes him a simple killer. Having a socially created system absolves the individual from the mistakes.

Of course, thanks to the magic of fiction, that's not gonna happen (though, the show's over, right? So I guess "that never happens" is better, at least in the context of Dexter).
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Diqiucun_Cunmin
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3/22/2014 5:39:03 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
I'll first test him against the four basic principles of morality:

Benevolence: Uncertain. He displayed it towards the victims but not the murderers/rapists/etc.
Righteousness: Yes, certainly. He hated the criminals for what they did.
Propriety: Uncertain. Seems against social rules to be killing someone outside the judiciary system.
Wisdom: Yes. He could tell between right and wrong.

Two of the four principles are uncertain, so I looked further:
'Ji Kang asked Confucius about government, saying, "What do you say to killing the unprincipled for the good of the principled?" Confucius replied, "Sir, in carrying on your government, why should you use killing at all? Let your evinced desires be for what is good, and the people will be good. The relation between superiors and inferiors is like that between the wind and the grass. The grass must bend, when the wind blows across it."' (Analects 12.19)
The guy is not a government official, however, so he even if he desired for the people to be good, he is not in the position to make it happen.

That's why I think it depends. If he is killing people in a country with a sound judiciary system based on moral principles and enforces good on the people, then he is probably wrong. If he is killing people in a country in disorder without political/social unrest and/or an unjust judiciary, then he is probably correct.
The thing is, I hate relativism. I hate relativism more than I hate everything else, excepting, maybe, fibreglass powerboats... What it overlooks, to put it briefly and crudely, is the fixed structure of human nature. - Jerry Fodor

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Juan_Pablo
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3/22/2014 7:01:56 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/21/2014 10:12:53 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/21/2014 9:58:06 PM, zmikecuber wrote:
At 3/21/2014 9:05:11 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
The show Dexter is about a serial killer, but he lives by a code that he only kills people who kill innocent people, and sometimes rapists and what not. His moral code is that he never kills an innocent, and he rids the world of the bad.

Is he morally good because he takes our the trash for society, or evil because he is a serial killer?

His motives are good, but I'm not a fan of vigilantism. Yes, I think these people should probably get the death penalty. However, I think that's the position of the government, which has the right to execute someone from God. I don't see it as an individuals place to go around casting judgment on people.

Lol at buying into the BS that the government gets the right from God. They just say that... Also, the government has the right to allow homosexuals to marry, did they get that from God as well?

Rights and laws are decided by the collective will of the people. Even if God commanded someone to do something, ultimately the person will decide for himself whether to follow through, because he has his own views and interests to consider. At least that's the conclusion that I draw.

To answer your question above, I don't think Dexter is in the right, because he's breaking important civilizing laws by doing what he's doing. if he can do it, why can't everyone else do it?

My view is that people should follow the laws a community has established, to prevent vigilantism and further erosion of the of the social order.

The only time I believe that laws should be broken is when they willfully deny someone equality under the law.

That's what I believe, rational_thinker.
zmikecuber
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3/22/2014 8:12:35 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/21/2014 10:12:53 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/21/2014 9:58:06 PM, zmikecuber wrote:
At 3/21/2014 9:05:11 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
The show Dexter is about a serial killer, but he lives by a code that he only kills people who kill innocent people, and sometimes rapists and what not. His moral code is that he never kills an innocent, and he rids the world of the bad.

Is he morally good because he takes our the trash for society, or evil because he is a serial killer?

His motives are good, but I'm not a fan of vigilantism. Yes, I think these people should probably get the death penalty. However, I think that's the position of the government, which has the right to execute someone from God. I don't see it as an individuals place to go around casting judgment on people.

Lol at buying into the BS that the government gets the right from God. They just say that...

Well ultimately if we don't allow that the government has a special privilege to execute people, we get that either everyone can take the matters of justice into their own hands (vigilantism) or that no one can.

Also, the government has the right to allow homosexuals to marry, did they get that from God as well?

Red-herring.
"Delete your fvcking sig" -1hard

"primal man had the habit, when he came into contact with fire, of satisfying the infantile desire connected with it, by putting it out with a stream of his urine... Putting out the fire by micturating was therefore a kind of sexual act with a male, an enjoyment of sexual potency in a homosexual competition."
zmikecuber
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3/22/2014 8:13:26 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/21/2014 10:13:49 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/21/2014 9:58:06 PM, zmikecuber wrote:
At 3/21/2014 9:05:11 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
The show Dexter is about a serial killer, but he lives by a code that he only kills people who kill innocent people, and sometimes rapists and what not. His moral code is that he never kills an innocent, and he rids the world of the bad.

Is he morally good because he takes our the trash for society, or evil because he is a serial killer?

His motives are good, but I'm not a fan of vigilantism. Yes, I think these people should probably get the death penalty. However, I think that's the position of the government, which has the right to execute someone from God. I don't see it as an individuals place to go around casting judgment on people.

We have no idea whether or not God sanctions the governments actions. If you are honest with yourself at least...

It's based on natural law as well. Man is a social animal. It just doesn't work to have everyone being in charge and punishing everyone else.
"Delete your fvcking sig" -1hard

"primal man had the habit, when he came into contact with fire, of satisfying the infantile desire connected with it, by putting it out with a stream of his urine... Putting out the fire by micturating was therefore a kind of sexual act with a male, an enjoyment of sexual potency in a homosexual competition."
Rational_Thinker9119
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3/22/2014 8:21:38 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/22/2014 8:12:35 AM, zmikecuber wrote:
At 3/21/2014 10:12:53 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/21/2014 9:58:06 PM, zmikecuber wrote:
At 3/21/2014 9:05:11 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
The show Dexter is about a serial killer, but he lives by a code that he only kills people who kill innocent people, and sometimes rapists and what not. His moral code is that he never kills an innocent, and he rids the world of the bad.

Is he morally good because he takes our the trash for society, or evil because he is a serial killer?

His motives are good, but I'm not a fan of vigilantism. Yes, I think these people should probably get the death penalty. However, I think that's the position of the government, which has the right to execute someone from God. I don't see it as an individuals place to go around casting judgment on people.

Lol at buying into the BS that the government gets the right from God. They just say that...

Well ultimately if we don't allow that the government has a special privilege to execute people, we get that either everyone can take the matters of justice into their own hands (vigilantism) or that no one can.

That has nothing to do with God though. The people give the government that power, and allow them that privilege. Sometimes, governments do what they want regardless of the public.


Also, the government has the right to allow homosexuals to marry, did they get that from God as well?

Red-herring.

Not really, I'm making a point that just because the government does something, that doesn't mean God sanctions it. If the government kills people, we have no way of knowing whether God wants it or not.
Juan_Pablo
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3/22/2014 8:22:31 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/22/2014 8:13:26 AM, zmikecuber wrote:
At 3/21/2014 10:13:49 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/21/2014 9:58:06 PM, zmikecuber wrote:
At 3/21/2014 9:05:11 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
The show Dexter is about a serial killer, but he lives by a code that he only kills people who kill innocent people, and sometimes rapists and what not. His moral code is that he never kills an innocent, and he rids the world of the bad.

Is he morally good because he takes our the trash for society, or evil because he is a serial killer?

His motives are good, but I'm not a fan of vigilantism. Yes, I think these people should probably get the death penalty. However, I think that's the position of the government, which has the right to execute someone from God. I don't see it as an individuals place to go around casting judgment on people.

We have no idea whether or not God sanctions the governments actions. If you are honest with yourself at least...

It's based on natural law as well. Man is a social animal. It just doesn't work to have everyone being in charge and punishing everyone else.

True, zmikecuber. Man is indeed a social animal. He therefore has a stake in making sure that others around him are treated fairly and properly (otherwise his community erodes, which affects him).
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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3/22/2014 8:22:38 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/22/2014 8:13:26 AM, zmikecuber wrote:
At 3/21/2014 10:13:49 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/21/2014 9:58:06 PM, zmikecuber wrote:
At 3/21/2014 9:05:11 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
The show Dexter is about a serial killer, but he lives by a code that he only kills people who kill innocent people, and sometimes rapists and what not. His moral code is that he never kills an innocent, and he rids the world of the bad.

Is he morally good because he takes our the trash for society, or evil because he is a serial killer?

His motives are good, but I'm not a fan of vigilantism. Yes, I think these people should probably get the death penalty. However, I think that's the position of the government, which has the right to execute someone from God. I don't see it as an individuals place to go around casting judgment on people.

We have no idea whether or not God sanctions the governments actions. If you are honest with yourself at least...

It's based on natural law as well.

Not really. According to natural law homosexuality is wrong, but yet, the government allows it.

Man is a social animal. It just doesn't work to have everyone being in charge and punishing everyone else.

Nobody is talking about everyone.
zmikecuber
Posts: 4,091
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3/22/2014 8:26:50 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/22/2014 8:22:38 AM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/22/2014 8:13:26 AM, zmikecuber wrote:
At 3/21/2014 10:13:49 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/21/2014 9:58:06 PM, zmikecuber wrote:
At 3/21/2014 9:05:11 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
The show Dexter is about a serial killer, but he lives by a code that he only kills people who kill innocent people, and sometimes rapists and what not. His moral code is that he never kills an innocent, and he rids the world of the bad.

Is he morally good because he takes our the trash for society, or evil because he is a serial killer?

His motives are good, but I'm not a fan of vigilantism. Yes, I think these people should probably get the death penalty. However, I think that's the position of the government, which has the right to execute someone from God. I don't see it as an individuals place to go around casting judgment on people.

We have no idea whether or not God sanctions the governments actions. If you are honest with yourself at least...

It's based on natural law as well.

Not really. According to natural law homosexuality is wrong, but yet, the government allows it.


What the hell does that have to do with anything? It sounds like denying the antecedent to me.

Man is a social animal. It just doesn't work to have everyone being in charge and punishing everyone else.

Nobody is talking about everyone.

I'm just saying that if he, as a normal citizen, has the right to go around executing everyone, then everyone has that right. And then everyone can cast judgment. And then society erodes. And this doesn't work, because man by his nature is directed to live in accord with his fellow man.

So we need some sort of governing system for the big punishments.
"Delete your fvcking sig" -1hard

"primal man had the habit, when he came into contact with fire, of satisfying the infantile desire connected with it, by putting it out with a stream of his urine... Putting out the fire by micturating was therefore a kind of sexual act with a male, an enjoyment of sexual potency in a homosexual competition."
Juan_Pablo
Posts: 2,052
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3/22/2014 8:27:58 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/22/2014 7:01:56 AM, Juan_Pablo wrote:
At 3/21/2014 10:12:53 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/21/2014 9:58:06 PM, zmikecuber wrote:
At 3/21/2014 9:05:11 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
The show Dexter is about a serial killer, but he lives by a code that he only kills people who kill innocent people, and sometimes rapists and what not. His moral code is that he never kills an innocent, and he rids the world of the bad.

Is he morally good because he takes our the trash for society, or evil because he is a serial killer?

His motives are good, but I'm not a fan of vigilantism. Yes, I think these people should probably get the death penalty. However, I think that's the position of the government, which has the right to execute someone from God. I don't see it as an individuals place to go around casting judgment on people.

Lol at buying into the BS that the government gets the right from God. They just say that... Also, the government has the right to allow homosexuals to marry, did they get that from God as well?

Rights and laws are decided by the collective will of the people. Even if God commanded someone to do something, ultimately the person will decide for himself whether to follow through, because he has his own views and interests to consider. At least that's the conclusion that I draw.

To answer your question above, I don't think Dexter is in the right, because he's breaking important civilizing laws by doing what he's doing. if he can do it, why can't everyone else do it?

My view is that people should follow the laws a community has established, to prevent vigilantism and further erosion of the of the social order.

The only time I believe that laws should be broken is when they willfully deny someone equality under the law.

That's what I believe, rational_thinker.

Well, actually there are a variety of reasons when I believe a law should be broken . . . such as in the case that it might be deemed necessary to save a life or provide someone with essential resources (but in a way that wont blatantly harm others).
zmikecuber
Posts: 4,091
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3/22/2014 8:28:15 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/22/2014 8:21:38 AM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/22/2014 8:12:35 AM, zmikecuber wrote:
At 3/21/2014 10:12:53 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/21/2014 9:58:06 PM, zmikecuber wrote:
At 3/21/2014 9:05:11 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
The show Dexter is about a serial killer, but he lives by a code that he only kills people who kill innocent people, and sometimes rapists and what not. His moral code is that he never kills an innocent, and he rids the world of the bad.

Is he morally good because he takes our the trash for society, or evil because he is a serial killer?

His motives are good, but I'm not a fan of vigilantism. Yes, I think these people should probably get the death penalty. However, I think that's the position of the government, which has the right to execute someone from God. I don't see it as an individuals place to go around casting judgment on people.

Lol at buying into the BS that the government gets the right from God. They just say that...

Well ultimately if we don't allow that the government has a special privilege to execute people, we get that either everyone can take the matters of justice into their own hands (vigilantism) or that no one can.

That has nothing to do with God though. The people give the government that power, and allow them that privilege. Sometimes, governments do what they want regardless of the public.


No it doesn't. I'm talking about from a Christian perspective though, that indirectly, God creating us as social animals, has made it that the government should be the ones doing capital punishment.


Also, the government has the right to allow homosexuals to marry, did they get that from God as well?

Red-herring.

Not really, I'm making a point that just because the government does something, that doesn't mean God sanctions it. If the government kills people, we have no way of knowing whether God wants it or not.

I never said that though.
"Delete your fvcking sig" -1hard

"primal man had the habit, when he came into contact with fire, of satisfying the infantile desire connected with it, by putting it out with a stream of his urine... Putting out the fire by micturating was therefore a kind of sexual act with a male, an enjoyment of sexual potency in a homosexual competition."
zmikecuber
Posts: 4,091
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3/22/2014 8:29:02 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/22/2014 8:22:31 AM, Juan_Pablo wrote:
At 3/22/2014 8:13:26 AM, zmikecuber wrote:
At 3/21/2014 10:13:49 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/21/2014 9:58:06 PM, zmikecuber wrote:
At 3/21/2014 9:05:11 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
The show Dexter is about a serial killer, but he lives by a code that he only kills people who kill innocent people, and sometimes rapists and what not. His moral code is that he never kills an innocent, and he rids the world of the bad.

Is he morally good because he takes our the trash for society, or evil because he is a serial killer?

His motives are good, but I'm not a fan of vigilantism. Yes, I think these people should probably get the death penalty. However, I think that's the position of the government, which has the right to execute someone from God. I don't see it as an individuals place to go around casting judgment on people.

We have no idea whether or not God sanctions the governments actions. If you are honest with yourself at least...

It's based on natural law as well. Man is a social animal. It just doesn't work to have everyone being in charge and punishing everyone else.

True, zmikecuber. Man is indeed a social animal. He therefore has a stake in making sure that others around him are treated fairly and properly (otherwise his community erodes, which affects him).

Yes. And if everyone can go around executing each other, the society would crumble. So we need to set up a certain amount of government to do that.
"Delete your fvcking sig" -1hard

"primal man had the habit, when he came into contact with fire, of satisfying the infantile desire connected with it, by putting it out with a stream of his urine... Putting out the fire by micturating was therefore a kind of sexual act with a male, an enjoyment of sexual potency in a homosexual competition."
Juan_Pablo
Posts: 2,052
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3/22/2014 8:31:23 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/22/2014 8:29:02 AM, zmikecuber wrote:
At 3/22/2014 8:22:31 AM, Juan_Pablo wrote:
At 3/22/2014 8:13:26 AM, zmikecuber wrote:
At 3/21/2014 10:13:49 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/21/2014 9:58:06 PM, zmikecuber wrote:
At 3/21/2014 9:05:11 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
The show Dexter is about a serial killer, but he lives by a code that he only kills people who kill innocent people, and sometimes rapists and what not. His moral code is that he never kills an innocent, and he rids the world of the bad.

Is he morally good because he takes our the trash for society, or evil because he is a serial killer?

His motives are good, but I'm not a fan of vigilantism. Yes, I think these people should probably get the death penalty. However, I think that's the position of the government, which has the right to execute someone from God. I don't see it as an individuals place to go around casting judgment on people.

We have no idea whether or not God sanctions the governments actions. If you are honest with yourself at least...

It's based on natural law as well. Man is a social animal. It just doesn't work to have everyone being in charge and punishing everyone else.

True, zmikecuber. Man is indeed a social animal. He therefore has a stake in making sure that others around him are treated fairly and properly (otherwise his community erodes, which affects him).

Yes. And if everyone can go around executing each other, the society would crumble. So we need to set up a certain amount of government to do that.

Yes. It's my position that governments exist because they are practical institutions, for the functioning of a community. Of course I'm not saying that any ole' government will do. Governments have obligations to the people, too, precisely because they exist to serve them!
zmikecuber
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3/22/2014 8:33:47 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/22/2014 8:31:23 AM, Juan_Pablo wrote:
At 3/22/2014 8:29:02 AM, zmikecuber wrote:
At 3/22/2014 8:22:31 AM, Juan_Pablo wrote:
At 3/22/2014 8:13:26 AM, zmikecuber wrote:
At 3/21/2014 10:13:49 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/21/2014 9:58:06 PM, zmikecuber wrote:
At 3/21/2014 9:05:11 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
The show Dexter is about a serial killer, but he lives by a code that he only kills people who kill innocent people, and sometimes rapists and what not. His moral code is that he never kills an innocent, and he rids the world of the bad.

Is he morally good because he takes our the trash for society, or evil because he is a serial killer?

His motives are good, but I'm not a fan of vigilantism. Yes, I think these people should probably get the death penalty. However, I think that's the position of the government, which has the right to execute someone from God. I don't see it as an individuals place to go around casting judgment on people.

We have no idea whether or not God sanctions the governments actions. If you are honest with yourself at least...

It's based on natural law as well. Man is a social animal. It just doesn't work to have everyone being in charge and punishing everyone else.

True, zmikecuber. Man is indeed a social animal. He therefore has a stake in making sure that others around him are treated fairly and properly (otherwise his community erodes, which affects him).

Yes. And if everyone can go around executing each other, the society would crumble. So we need to set up a certain amount of government to do that.

Yes. It's my position that governments exist because they are practical institutions, for the functioning of a community. Of course I'm not saying that any ole' government will do. Governments have obligations to the people, too, precisely because they exist to serve them!

Agreed. :P But I'd probably disagree with you on the extent of the government helping the people, and that "helping" isn't always giving something out.

But yes, I think people thus have a moral obligation to pay taxes, all based on the common good, and man as a social animal, and I think the government has the moral obligation to use taxes for the common good.

I'm not even close to being a libertarian.
"Delete your fvcking sig" -1hard

"primal man had the habit, when he came into contact with fire, of satisfying the infantile desire connected with it, by putting it out with a stream of his urine... Putting out the fire by micturating was therefore a kind of sexual act with a male, an enjoyment of sexual potency in a homosexual competition."
Rational_Thinker9119
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3/22/2014 8:36:46 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/22/2014 8:26:50 AM, zmikecuber wrote:
At 3/22/2014 8:22:38 AM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/22/2014 8:13:26 AM, zmikecuber wrote:
At 3/21/2014 10:13:49 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/21/2014 9:58:06 PM, zmikecuber wrote:
At 3/21/2014 9:05:11 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
The show Dexter is about a serial killer, but he lives by a code that he only kills people who kill innocent people, and sometimes rapists and what not. His moral code is that he never kills an innocent, and he rids the world of the bad.

Is he morally good because he takes our the trash for society, or evil because he is a serial killer?

His motives are good, but I'm not a fan of vigilantism. Yes, I think these people should probably get the death penalty. However, I think that's the position of the government, which has the right to execute someone from God. I don't see it as an individuals place to go around casting judgment on people.

We have no idea whether or not God sanctions the governments actions. If you are honest with yourself at least...

It's based on natural law as well.

Not really. According to natural law homosexuality is wrong, but yet, the government allows it.


What the hell does that have to do with anything?

Everything. It shows that God doesn't necessary sanction government actions, if you believe homosexuality is a sin that is.

It sounds like denying the antecedent to me.

Not even close.


Man is a social animal. It just doesn't work to have everyone being in charge and punishing everyone else.

Nobody is talking about everyone.

I'm just saying that if he, as a normal citizen, has the right to go around executing everyone, then everyone has that right.

Non-sequitur. Dexter makes sure he has a standard cop-quality evidence before killing bad people. I don't believe that people who don't do that, have that right.

And then everyone can cast judgment.

Again, doesn't follow.

And then society erodes. And this doesn't work, because man by his nature is directed to live in accord with his fellow man.

Not rapists and serial killers.


So we need some sort of governing system for the big punishments.

Again, doesn't follow.
Rational_Thinker9119
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3/22/2014 8:38:28 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/22/2014 8:28:15 AM, zmikecuber wrote:
At 3/22/2014 8:21:38 AM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/22/2014 8:12:35 AM, zmikecuber wrote:
At 3/21/2014 10:12:53 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/21/2014 9:58:06 PM, zmikecuber wrote:
At 3/21/2014 9:05:11 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
The show Dexter is about a serial killer, but he lives by a code that he only kills people who kill innocent people, and sometimes rapists and what not. His moral code is that he never kills an innocent, and he rids the world of the bad.

Is he morally good because he takes our the trash for society, or evil because he is a serial killer?

His motives are good, but I'm not a fan of vigilantism. Yes, I think these people should probably get the death penalty. However, I think that's the position of the government, which has the right to execute someone from God. I don't see it as an individuals place to go around casting judgment on people.

Lol at buying into the BS that the government gets the right from God. They just say that...

Well ultimately if we don't allow that the government has a special privilege to execute people, we get that either everyone can take the matters of justice into their own hands (vigilantism) or that no one can.

That has nothing to do with God though. The people give the government that power, and allow them that privilege. Sometimes, governments do what they want regardless of the public.


No it doesn't. I'm talking about from a Christian perspective though, that indirectly, God creating us as social animals, has made it that the government should be the ones doing capital punishment.

Well, I see no reason to believe that is true, at all lol The government takes power, and use the concept of God as a shield to do what they want.



Also, the government has the right to allow homosexuals to marry, did they get that from God as well?

Red-herring.

Not really, I'm making a point that just because the government does something, that doesn't mean God sanctions it. If the government kills people, we have no way of knowing whether God wants it or not.

I never said that though.

You said God sanctions government killing. Yet, there is no reason to believe that.
zmikecuber
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3/22/2014 8:42:23 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/22/2014 8:36:46 AM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/22/2014 8:26:50 AM, zmikecuber wrote:
At 3/22/2014 8:22:38 AM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/22/2014 8:13:26 AM, zmikecuber wrote:
At 3/21/2014 10:13:49 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/21/2014 9:58:06 PM, zmikecuber wrote:
At 3/21/2014 9:05:11 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
The show Dexter is about a serial killer, but he lives by a code that he only kills people who kill innocent people, and sometimes rapists and what not. His moral code is that he never kills an innocent, and he rids the world of the bad.

Is he morally good because he takes our the trash for society, or evil because he is a serial killer?

His motives are good, but I'm not a fan of vigilantism. Yes, I think these people should probably get the death penalty. However, I think that's the position of the government, which has the right to execute someone from God. I don't see it as an individuals place to go around casting judgment on people.

We have no idea whether or not God sanctions the governments actions. If you are honest with yourself at least...

It's based on natural law as well.

Not really. According to natural law homosexuality is wrong, but yet, the government allows it.


What the hell does that have to do with anything?

Everything. It shows that God doesn't necessary sanction government actions, if you believe homosexuality is a sin that is.


Lol, I never said he did.

It sounds like denying the antecedent to me.

Not even close.


Man is a social animal. It just doesn't work to have everyone being in charge and punishing everyone else.

Nobody is talking about everyone.

I'm just saying that if he, as a normal citizen, has the right to go around executing everyone, then everyone has that right.

Non-sequitur. Dexter makes sure he has a standard cop-quality evidence before killing bad people. I don't believe that people who don't do that, have that right.


Oh. So anyone who can discover the evidence can execute people? That would result in a structure-less government, which would fall apart, and degrade the common good.

I just don't think it would work to have a million little judges killing people.

And then everyone can cast judgment.

Again, doesn't follow.


Ok, so only the people who can execute appropriately can do this... Why believe that?

And then society erodes. And this doesn't work, because man by his nature is directed to live in accord with his fellow man.

Not rapists and serial killers.


Yes, they are. They're still "men" and their directed towards living in society, even if they're too screwed up.


So we need some sort of governing system for the big punishments.

Again, doesn't follow.

You really think it would work if everyone with appropriate training could execute people? What if someone uses this to execute someone who doesn't deserve it? Then someone else with appropriate training executes him?

It just doesn't sound like it would work. It sounds like anarchy, lol.
"Delete your fvcking sig" -1hard

"primal man had the habit, when he came into contact with fire, of satisfying the infantile desire connected with it, by putting it out with a stream of his urine... Putting out the fire by micturating was therefore a kind of sexual act with a male, an enjoyment of sexual potency in a homosexual competition."
Rational_Thinker9119
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3/22/2014 8:53:32 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/22/2014 8:42:23 AM, zmikecuber wrote:
At 3/22/2014 8:36:46 AM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/22/2014 8:26:50 AM, zmikecuber wrote:
At 3/22/2014 8:22:38 AM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/22/2014 8:13:26 AM, zmikecuber wrote:
At 3/21/2014 10:13:49 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/21/2014 9:58:06 PM, zmikecuber wrote:
At 3/21/2014 9:05:11 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
The show Dexter is about a serial killer, but he lives by a code that he only kills people who kill innocent people, and sometimes rapists and what not. His moral code is that he never kills an innocent, and he rids the world of the bad.

Is he morally good because he takes our the trash for society, or evil because he is a serial killer?

His motives are good, but I'm not a fan of vigilantism. Yes, I think these people should probably get the death penalty. However, I think that's the position of the government, which has the right to execute someone from God. I don't see it as an individuals place to go around casting judgment on people.

We have no idea whether or not God sanctions the governments actions. If you are honest with yourself at least...

It's based on natural law as well.

Not really. According to natural law homosexuality is wrong, but yet, the government allows it.


What the hell does that have to do with anything?

Everything. It shows that God doesn't necessary sanction government actions, if you believe homosexuality is a sin that is.


Lol, I never said he did.

Yes you did. You said God sanctions government actions. I showed that's not necessarily the case.


It sounds like denying the antecedent to me.

Not even close.


Man is a social animal. It just doesn't work to have everyone being in charge and punishing everyone else.

Nobody is talking about everyone.

I'm just saying that if he, as a normal citizen, has the right to go around executing everyone, then everyone has that right.

Non-sequitur. Dexter makes sure he has a standard cop-quality evidence before killing bad people. I don't believe that people who don't do that, have that right.


Oh. So anyone who can discover the evidence can execute people?

Why not?

That would result in a structure-less government, which would fall apart, and degrade the common good.

I don't see how people getting rid of the trash can harm society, or how it follows that the government would be structure-less. Seems like a lot of unwarranted assumptions.


I just don't think it would work to have a million little judges killing people.

As long as they do it right, I see no problem. Regardless, most people don't have it in them to kill, and most people don't have time or life to run around killing bad guys. In fact, there are very few people who do what Dexter does. So, I'm not sure where you get this "millions" number from.


And then everyone can cast judgment.

Again, doesn't follow.


Ok, so only the people who can execute appropriately can do this... Why believe that?

Because, the government does the exact same thing. I see no reason why they should have the right, over the public. We are all people. Now, perhaps they bad guys should be turned into the police first, but a lot of times bad guys get off on technicalities and justice is not served! What about Casey Anthony? The government let her go, but she deserves to die. This is where I think vigilanties come in handy, when the government lets bad guys walks.


And then society erodes. And this doesn't work, because man by his nature is directed to live in accord with his fellow man.

Not rapists and serial killers.


Yes, they are. They're still "men" and their directed towards living in society, even if they're too screwed up.

Directed towards harming society you mean. Who wants to live by a rapist?



So we need some sort of governing system for the big punishments.

Again, doesn't follow.

You really think it would work if everyone with appropriate training could execute people?

Why not?

What if someone uses this to execute someone who doesn't deserve it?

Then they used it wrong. Just like how crashing a car is using a vehicle wrong, that doesn't mean cars should be illegal. Some people abuse rights. This is a known fact

Then someone else with appropriate training executes him?

They deserved it.

It just doesn't sound like it would work. It sounds like anarchy, lol.

It would be, if people did it wrong.
zmikecuber
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3/22/2014 9:04:01 AM
Posted: 2 years ago


What the hell does that have to do with anything?

Everything. It shows that God doesn't necessary sanction government actions, if you believe homosexuality is a sin that is.


Lol, I never said he did.

Yes you did. You said God sanctions government actions. I showed that's not necessarily the case.


No I didn't. I said that in principle, God grounds the government's right to capital punishment. That's all I said.


It sounds like denying the antecedent to me.

Not even close.


Man is a social animal. It just doesn't work to have everyone being in charge and punishing everyone else.

Nobody is talking about everyone.

I'm just saying that if he, as a normal citizen, has the right to go around executing everyone, then everyone has that right.

Non-sequitur. Dexter makes sure he has a standard cop-quality evidence before killing bad people. I don't believe that people who don't do that, have that right.


Oh. So anyone who can discover the evidence can execute people?

Why not?

That would result in a structure-less government, which would fall apart, and degrade the common good.

I don't see how people getting rid of the trash can harm society, or how it follows that the government would be structure-less. Seems like a lot of unwarranted assumptions.


You really think a system where any person who has "sufficient knowledge" should be able to go kill people who deserve it? :P This sounds like something out of the boondock saints.. cool, but not really practical.


I just don't think it would work to have a million little judges killing people.

As long as they do it right, I see no problem. Regardless, most people don't have it in them to kill, and most people don't have time or life to run around killing bad guys. In fact, there are very few people who do what Dexter does. So, I'm not sure where you get this "millions" number from.


I'm sure if this were legalized, we'd have lots of people doing it.


And then everyone can cast judgment.

Again, doesn't follow.


Ok, so only the people who can execute appropriately can do this... Why believe that?

Because, the government does the exact same thing. I see no reason why they should have the right, over the public. We are all people. Now, perhaps they bad guys should be turned into the police first, but a lot of times bad guys get off on technicalities and justice is not served! What about Casey Anthony? The government let her go, but she deserves to die. This is where I think vigilanties come in handy, when the government lets bad guys walks.


So when the vigilanties mess up... who do they respond to? Each other? So vigilanties will kill each other off? So if you're a vigilante and you kill Bob without sufficient evidence, I can gather the evidence, and then go kill you?


And then society erodes. And this doesn't work, because man by his nature is directed to live in accord with his fellow man.

Not rapists and serial killers.


Yes, they are. They're still "men" and their directed towards living in society, even if they're too screwed up.

Directed towards harming society you mean. Who wants to live by a rapist?


Stop thinking biologically, and start thinking philosophically. They're still humans, just twisted ones... and they deserve to die.



So we need some sort of governing system for the big punishments.

Again, doesn't follow.

You really think it would work if everyone with appropriate training could execute people?

Why not?


Shifting of the burden here... you should show that it would work. It sounds like it could have problems, which is what I'm trying to show.

What if someone uses this to execute someone who doesn't deserve it?

Then they used it wrong. Just like how crashing a car is using a vehicle wrong, that doesn't mean cars should be illegal. Some people abuse rights. This is a known fact


If you're going to say that X qualified people can execute people who deserve it.. then as far as I'm concerned, and from a natural law point of view, that's a form of government right there.

Then someone else with appropriate training executes him?

They deserved it.

It just doesn't sound like it would work. It sounds like anarchy, lol.

It would be, if people did it wrong.

I thought you were opposed to the death penalty?
"Delete your fvcking sig" -1hard

"primal man had the habit, when he came into contact with fire, of satisfying the infantile desire connected with it, by putting it out with a stream of his urine... Putting out the fire by micturating was therefore a kind of sexual act with a male, an enjoyment of sexual potency in a homosexual competition."
Rational_Thinker9119
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3/22/2014 9:17:59 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/22/2014 9:04:01 AM, zmikecuber wrote:


What the hell does that have to do with anything?

Everything. It shows that God doesn't necessary sanction government actions, if you believe homosexuality is a sin that is.


Lol, I never said he did.

Yes you did. You said God sanctions government actions. I showed that's not necessarily the case.


No I didn't. I said that in principle, God grounds the government's right to capital punishment. That's all I said.

But then you are left with the question regarding why the government can decide what happens to people as far as murder as concerned in God's eyes, but not marriage. On the face of it, it would seem like special pleading.



It sounds like denying the antecedent to me.

Not even close.


Man is a social animal. It just doesn't work to have everyone being in charge and punishing everyone else.

Nobody is talking about everyone.

I'm just saying that if he, as a normal citizen, has the right to go around executing everyone, then everyone has that right.

Non-sequitur. Dexter makes sure he has a standard cop-quality evidence before killing bad people. I don't believe that people who don't do that, have that right.


Oh. So anyone who can discover the evidence can execute people?

Why not?

That would result in a structure-less government, which would fall apart, and degrade the common good.

I don't see how people getting rid of the trash can harm society, or how it follows that the government would be structure-less. Seems like a lot of unwarranted assumptions.


You really think a system where any person who has "sufficient knowledge" should be able to go kill people who deserve it? :P This sounds like something out of the boondock saints.. cool, but not really practical.

Why not? I can't see how people taking out the trash could be a bad thing. The government can't catch them all.



I just don't think it would work to have a million little judges killing people.

As long as they do it right, I see no problem. Regardless, most people don't have it in them to kill, and most people don't have time or life to run around killing bad guys. In fact, there are very few people who do what Dexter does. So, I'm not sure where you get this "millions" number from.


I'm sure if this were legalized, we'd have lots of people doing it.

I disagree. I don't kill because I don't have it in me, and because I have a life of my own, not because it is illegal. I think most people are the same.



And then everyone can cast judgment.

Again, doesn't follow.


Ok, so only the people who can execute appropriately can do this... Why believe that?

Because, the government does the exact same thing. I see no reason why they should have the right, over the public. We are all people. Now, perhaps they bad guys should be turned into the police first, but a lot of times bad guys get off on technicalities and justice is not served! What about Casey Anthony? The government let her go, but she deserves to die. This is where I think vigilanties come in handy, when the government lets bad guys walks.


So when the vigilanties mess up... who do they respond to? Each other? So vigilanties will kill each other off? So if you're a vigilante and you kill Bob without sufficient evidence, I can gather the evidence, and then go kill you?

No. In that situation, the person should be locked up. Their heart was in the right place, but they screwed up (they should be kept away from society). Killing innocent people is already illegal. It is killing guilty people that I don't have a problem with.



And then society erodes. And this doesn't work, because man by his nature is directed to live in accord with his fellow man.

Not rapists and serial killers.


Yes, they are. They're still "men" and their directed towards living in society, even if they're too screwed up.

Directed towards harming society you mean. Who wants to live by a rapist?


Stop thinking biologically, and start thinking philosophically. They're still humans, just twisted ones... and they deserve to die.



So we need some sort of governing system for the big punishments.

Again, doesn't follow.

You really think it would work if everyone with appropriate training could execute people?

Why not?


Shifting of the burden here... you should show that it would work. It sounds like it could have problems, which is what I'm trying to show.

We share the burden, as you made the positive claim that it wouldn't work.

What if someone uses this to execute someone who doesn't deserve it?

Then they used it wrong. Just like how crashing a car is using a vehicle wrong, that doesn't mean cars should be illegal. Some people abuse rights. This is a known fact


If you're going to say that X qualified people can execute people who deserve it.. then as far as I'm concerned, and from a natural law point of view, that's a form of government right there.

It all depends on how you define the government.


Then someone else with appropriate training executes him?

They deserved it.

It just doesn't sound like it would work. It sounds like anarchy, lol.

It would be, if people did it wrong.

I thought you were opposed to the death penalty?

I am, because it costs the tax payers too much money to keep them on death row. I'm not sure that is an issue with vigilanties.
Illegalcombatant
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3/24/2014 4:33:44 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/21/2014 9:05:11 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
The show Dexter is about a serial killer, but he lives by a code that he only kills people who kill innocent people, and sometimes rapists and what not. His moral code is that he never kills an innocent, and he rids the world of the bad.

Is he morally good because he takes our the trash for society, or evil because he is a serial killer?

Remember in the world of Dexter he has a strong compulsion to kill regardless......his "dark passenger". Killing bad people, developing the code was just a way for this father to channel that.
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
Illegalcombatant
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3/24/2014 4:40:39 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/22/2014 8:12:35 AM, zmikecuber wrote:
At 3/21/2014 10:12:53 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/21/2014 9:58:06 PM, zmikecuber wrote:
At 3/21/2014 9:05:11 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
The show Dexter is about a serial killer, but he lives by a code that he only kills people who kill innocent people, and sometimes rapists and what not. His moral code is that he never kills an innocent, and he rids the world of the bad.

Is he morally good because he takes our the trash for society, or evil because he is a serial killer?

His motives are good, but I'm not a fan of vigilantism. Yes, I think these people should probably get the death penalty. However, I think that's the position of the government, which has the right to execute someone from God. I don't see it as an individuals place to go around casting judgment on people.

Lol at buying into the BS that the government gets the right from God. They just say that...

Well ultimately if we don't allow that the government has a special privilege to execute people, we get that either everyone can take the matters of justice into their own hands (vigilantism) or that no one can.

That might be a good argument there for government. But you didn't say that. You tried to use the divine right of kings.........errr government.

Yes people in power very much like those who they are in power over to be of the view that the power structure is such because it is ordained by God. You know kinda makes it hard to challenge the whole power dynamic.

Did I mentioned God ordained me as high priest of DDO ? true story......


Also, the government has the right to allow homosexuals to marry, did they get that from God as well?

Red-herring.
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
blaze8
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3/24/2014 8:01:33 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/21/2014 9:05:11 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
The show Dexter is about a serial killer, but he lives by a code that he only kills people who kill innocent people, and sometimes rapists and what not. His moral code is that he never kills an innocent, and he rids the world of the bad.

Is he morally good because he takes our the trash for society, or evil because he is a serial killer?

His actions themselves are good in their intentions. But I don't believe anyone has the right, morally or otherwise, to take the life of another for any reason beyond self-defense. If pushed to qualify that, I'd have to say the Law Enforcement Use of Force continuum policy is a good standard. If your opponent is using lethal force against you, you have the right to use lethal force in that instant. So Dexter is an individual fighting for a moral cause using immoral methods.

The problem I have with Dexter specifically as a vigilante is that his vigilantism is, in my opinion, fragile. He loves killing, and like other sociopaths, has no emotions or conscience. If he were to degenerate, for some reason or other, the degeneration could happen rapidly, and result in a true serial killer targeting the innocent. I would be very concerned with the possibility of Dexter losing control for some reason. The show portrays him as having excellent control over his desire to kill, however as Dexter gets older, would he be able to stop? When it comes to retiring, how would he handle living a life where perhaps his physical condition prevents him from hunting serial killers? His only outlet for the killing desires will be taken away, and I am not confident he would be able to control those desires in such a situation.

That's why I don't really watch the show too much. Something about actors being able to switch between normal every day emotions and emotionless, cold, ruthless killers on a dime discomforts me. I won't watch the Following for the same reason. The ease with which these actors and actresses play roles which require them to be insane and hide their murderous and violent desires through a complex and opposite facade which must be nearly impenetrable is disturbing to me.
"For I am a sinner in the hands of an angry God. Bloody Mary full of vodka, blessed are you among cocktails. Pray for me now and at the hour of my death, which I hope is soon. Amen."-Sterling Archer