Total Posts:300|Showing Posts:1-30|Last Page
Jump to topic:

Pedophilic acts are not wrong, are they?

Questionner
Posts: 233
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/22/2014 5:22:46 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
I used to believe that pedophilic acts were a horrible, horrible crime. But then I came across the testimony of a pedophile (named X) who claimed to be in a relationship with a girl of an age still in single digits. It really made me think...

Contrary to what the popular image of the evil pedophile who uses kids just for his own selfish sexual satisfaction and then discards them would have you think, he claims to actually love her and care about her. She likes him so much she asks to see him and wants to be around him all the time, too. They play many other games together (as adults do with kids), sex is just one thing among many others that they do. And when they do have sex, he claims to never do anything to her that she doesn't want to do.

He claims to always use protection with each sexual contact and teaches her about the importance of protection too, along with giving her overall sexual education.

What is so wrong about that kind of pedophilic relationship?

Your first reactions are most likely revolt and anger, but it's an earnest question that I'm asking here. I'm not starting this topic to offend and infuriate.

X has battled with self-hate because of his sexual orientation and has been the victim of hate and aggression purely because of his attraction. Basically, he's dealing with the difficulties homosexuals often struggle with (in conservative/religious areas), but multiplied ten folds, given that pedophiles are socially seen as the worst of the worst. Even in jail, they're at the bottom of the food chain.

I understand why the morality of pedophilic acts is a grey area (or simply a black one for many), but when it comes to the morality of simply being a pedophile (as in, feeling an attraction towards kids without necessarily acting on these urges), the answer seems clear as day to me: It is definitely not wrong.
It makes no sense to hate or want to punish a person simply for feeling an attraction. An attraction is not a choice, it's something that's just there and the fact that people could possibly have an issue with an attraction that a person can't control (without being religious) is simply beyond me. Pedophilia is just like homosexuality in that regard.

But back to pedophilic acts, the arguments I often hear against them are the following:

1. Kids cannot give informed consent.
2. It destroys the kid's innocence.
3. It's harmful to kids psychologically and physically.

Here's what I think of them:

1. Why is that an issue? Kids cannot give informed consent to anything they do, they aren't able to evaluate the risks and consequences of anything as well as an adult can and yet they're allowed to do a lot of pleasurable activities, why allow all these other things but not sex even when the child wants to partake in it?

2. I don't get why people even say that. Why treat sex like a nasty, criminal thing that "takes your innocence away"? Sex is not a misdeed or a crime. None of us would be there if it wasn't for sex. It's a natural and healthy activity. Why should kids be shielded from it like it's inherently dirty or wrong? Why are kids not allowed to watch media that have sexual content if it isn't inherently dirty or wrong?

3. Kids who've had pedophilic relationships are said to experience trauma and shame. But is this the result of the pedophilic act on itself, or isn't that rather the result of society telling them that they are poor, broken victims that have experienced something horrible? It seems more likely to me that victims feel like it's a traumatizing experience because the whole world tells him/her that that's how he/she should feel, because there is nothing inherently traumatizing about sex (your parents turned out fine, right? And yet you're here). If society is the culprit, shouldn't we aim to change society instead of forcing pedophiles to conform to society's erroneous views?

That's why X said that he's careful about educating his girlfriend about societal views and the fact that they're dangerous so that she doesn't feel traumatized as a result of being influenced by societal views.

And to make things clear, I am talking about consensual sexual activity with a child here, not forced sexual activity with a child. A child will surely be traumatized by a rape, just like an adult would - rape is definitely wrong no matter what age the victim is.
If you're thinking "kids can't consent, so pedophilic acts are rape by definition", I mean "consensual" in the sense that the kid express that he/she wants to do it and doesn't show any signs of disapproval, like it was the case in X's testimony.

As for physical harm, the risks of diseases or pregnancy is greatly reduced by the use of protection (which the adult should always use with a kid) and anal sex should just not be done (because of the tearing risks). Vaginal sex should also be avoided for the same reasons if the girl is really, really small, but that leaves oral or touch with the hands (X has only mentioned that type of sex, I don't think he does have sex of the two other types with her. Besides, the kid would most likely express dissent because of the pain if the adult tried to have that type of sex, so that would most likely not happen with it being a rape. And rape is, I repeat, wrong).
Protection is not 100% effective, sure, but nothing of what kids are allowed to do is without risk, right? Now, of course that's not a reason to allow kids any risky activity, kids are prohibited activities that are very dangerous, but is sex really one of these activities given that latex condoms are close to 100% effective when used correctly? Kids can also injure themselves while playing sports (and yet they can play sports for fun), die in a plane crash (and yet they're allowed to fly), catch something bad/infectious in the foods that they eat (and yet they're allowed to eat for fun. And to survive, yes, but you won't refuse an ice cream to your little cousin just because "you have already had your minimum food intake needed for survival and health today. Anything more is too 'risky' ") and so on.

So why is pedophilia so particularly demonized, despised and illegal in our culture?

I am not a pedophile myself. Really, I'm not. I know about the trick of speaking of oneself in the third person to hide the fact that you're speaking about yourself, but X is really not me. (And I know that I can't prove that I'm telling the truth so you'll keep believing I'm lying if that's what you feel like doing, but at least you have my version of events and you can't disprove its veracity either). I am just a person who has a fierce aversion towards injustice in general, be it homophobia, racism, sexism,... You don't persecute people just for having a difference that they can't control, it's just wrong for obvious reasons. So, I can't help imagining myself in X's place, being a pedophile in a society filled with people who would gladly insult me, vandalize my property or come to murder me if they knew what I am, and feel like it's a horrible, horrible place to be. He looked like a guy with good intentions and he's found a way to soothe his pedophilic urges all the while being respectful and caring of a young girl who says she loves him and encourages him to do so, so if they're both happy that way, who are we to meddle?

Please, don't let emotions get the best of you. I just want to have a rational, productive discussion about this to find out if I'm wrong or not. I repeat that no offense was intended.
Sswdwm
Posts: 1,398
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/22/2014 5:43:30 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
You really only need to look as far as child psychology, and the negative effect paedophilic relationships have in the long term on the delicate minds of the minors involved.

It doesn't matter if it's fully concentual, or even if the minor experiences real emotions of 'love', the data is in and the concequences are overwhelmingly negative, and should therefore not tolerated.
http://www.hiddenmysteries.org... (some random arcticle I just read, I'm sure higher quality ones are easily found via google)

This says nothing about the morality of such an action, as there is evidence that paedophilia may well be akin to sexuality. There was the case of a brain tumor patient, where every time the tumor grew back he experienced paedophilic urges.
http://www.newscientist.com...

It doesn't prove much by itself and I am sure the research is many times more comprehensive, but it does highlight the attraction may not simply be a matter of choice. Which is a sad thing, as it labels such people as inherently evil, rather than as people with a medical condition that is best treated.
Resolved: the Zombie Apocalypse Will Happen
http://www.debate.org...

The most basic living cell was Intelligently Designed:
http://www.debate.org...

God most likely exists:
http://www.debate.org...
NiqashMotawadi3
Posts: 1,895
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/22/2014 6:03:49 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
I myself support hebephillia in exceptional cases. The main problem with pedophilia seems to be the long-term effects on unsuspecting children. However, some children at 13-14 are sometimes highly intelligent with a High EQ and IQ because of experiences(for instance, kids that take care of their families from a young age), and those I believe are mature enough to decide to marry and have sex with older partners, they'd even surpass most adults in standard tests of IQ and EQ. I'm myself attracted to older, mature women, but not that old. I'm 21, but but I could see myself with a partner who is 40-50.

Other than that, thanks for raising this controversial topic. I did raise a similar topic like weeks ago but on a different forum category, and it got your usual redneck knee-jerk reactions, which I thought Kinsey and Larry Flint have separately eradicated from the American society.
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/22/2014 7:40:45 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Young minds are too impressionable, if he convinced her to love him he is taking advantage of her ignorance and lack of cognitive faculties. If she loves him all on her own, then he is still making a grave mistake. Not only that but a young child's vagina is too tight to handle an adult member, it would be physically damaging to her. Not to mention the psychological disorders that go along with it.

Pedophilic acts are definitely wrong to me, and I sincerely have no doubt about this.
Questionner
Posts: 233
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/22/2014 7:47:39 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Sswdwm and NiqashMotawadi3:

At 3/22/2014 5:43:30 PM, Sswdwm wrote:
You really only need to look as far as child psychology, and the negative effect paedophilic relationships have in the long term on the delicate minds of the minors involved.

It doesn't matter if it's fully concentual, or even if the minor experiences real emotions of 'love', the data is in and the concequences are overwhelmingly negative, and should therefore not tolerated.
http://www.hiddenmysteries.org... (some random arcticle I just read, I'm sure higher quality ones are easily found via google)


The problem with these studies, Sswdwm, is that they lump kids who have been raped and kids who engaged into consensual sexual activity into the same category despite the fact that kids from the first group are, a priori, far more likely to be traumatized by the experience itself than those from the second group.

The kids from the second group can be traumatized, there's no denying that, but the fact remains that these are not the negative psychological effects of pedophile relationships, they're the negative effects of society's response to pedophilic relationships. That response ought to be blamed for the negative psychological consequences, not the sex on itself, like I said in my original post. So why attack pedophiles first instead of attacking society first in order to make it a less hostile environment for pedophiles and kids who have been in pedophilic relationships to grow up in?
ADreamOfLiberty
Posts: 1,570
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/22/2014 8:05:25 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
I'm going to read this and respond to it in good time (whuahah). However I do want to ask why there are so many of these threads? Why not just pick one of the existing pedo threads and post your argument there?

It's like the people who make a new thread about creationism every week as if that resets the issue. Just makes it harder to find what's already been said.
LOL, yeah, it's pretty amazing how they think they can "reason" with you. - Sidewalker, speaking of advocates for sexual deviancy.

So, my advice, Liberty, is to go somewhere else. Leave, and never come back. - YYW

And that's what I did. Contact me at http://www.edeb8.com... by the same user name if you have anything you'd like to say.
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/22/2014 8:14:27 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/22/2014 7:47:39 PM, Questionner wrote:
Sswdwm and NiqashMotawadi3:

At 3/22/2014 5:43:30 PM, Sswdwm wrote:
You really only need to look as far as child psychology, and the negative effect paedophilic relationships have in the long term on the delicate minds of the minors involved.

It doesn't matter if it's fully concentual, or even if the minor experiences real emotions of 'love', the data is in and the concequences are overwhelmingly negative, and should therefore not tolerated.
http://www.hiddenmysteries.org... (some random arcticle I just read, I'm sure higher quality ones are easily found via google)


The problem with these studies, Sswdwm, is that they lump kids who have been raped and kids who engaged into consensual sexual activity into the same category despite the fact that kids from the first group are, a priori, far more likely to be traumatized by the experience itself than those from the second group.

The kids from the second group can be traumatized, there's no denying that, but the fact remains that these are not the negative psychological effects of pedophile relationships, they're the negative effects of society's response to pedophilic relationships. That response ought to be blamed for the negative psychological consequences, not the sex on itself, like I said in my original post. So why attack pedophiles first instead of attacking society first in order to make it a less hostile environment for pedophiles and kids who have been in pedophilic relationships to grow up in?

I think you confuse cause and effect. Pedophilic relationships aren't "wrong" because society thinks so, society thinks so because they are wrong. Would you want a grown man having a relationship with your 9 year old or younger
zmikecuber
Posts: 4,093
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/22/2014 8:16:27 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/22/2014 7:40:45 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Young minds are too impressionable, if he convinced her to love him he is taking advantage of her ignorance and lack of cognitive faculties. If she loves him all on her own, then he is still making a grave mistake. Not only that but a young child's vagina is too tight to handle an adult member, it would be physically damaging to her. Not to mention the psychological disorders that go along with it.

Pedophilic acts are definitely wrong to me, and I sincerely have no doubt about this.

In ancient greece they found ways to have sex with children without penetration...
"Delete your fvcking sig" -1hard

"primal man had the habit, when he came into contact with fire, of satisfying the infantile desire connected with it, by putting it out with a stream of his urine... Putting out the fire by micturating was therefore a kind of sexual act with a male, an enjoyment of sexual potency in a homosexual competition."
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/22/2014 8:25:30 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/22/2014 8:16:27 PM, zmikecuber wrote:
At 3/22/2014 7:40:45 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Young minds are too impressionable, if he convinced her to love him he is taking advantage of her ignorance and lack of cognitive faculties. If she loves him all on her own, then he is still making a grave mistake. Not only that but a young child's vagina is too tight to handle an adult member, it would be physically damaging to her. Not to mention the psychological disorders that go along with it.

Pedophilic acts are definitely wrong to me, and I sincerely have no doubt about this.

In ancient greece they found ways to have sex with children without penetration...

Intercourse without penetration, sounds a lot like a square circle lol
zmikecuber
Posts: 4,093
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/22/2014 8:25:53 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/22/2014 8:25:30 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/22/2014 8:16:27 PM, zmikecuber wrote:
At 3/22/2014 7:40:45 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Young minds are too impressionable, if he convinced her to love him he is taking advantage of her ignorance and lack of cognitive faculties. If she loves him all on her own, then he is still making a grave mistake. Not only that but a young child's vagina is too tight to handle an adult member, it would be physically damaging to her. Not to mention the psychological disorders that go along with it.

Pedophilic acts are definitely wrong to me, and I sincerely have no doubt about this.

In ancient greece they found ways to have sex with children without penetration...

Intercourse without penetration, sounds a lot like a square circle lol

Legsex.
"Delete your fvcking sig" -1hard

"primal man had the habit, when he came into contact with fire, of satisfying the infantile desire connected with it, by putting it out with a stream of his urine... Putting out the fire by micturating was therefore a kind of sexual act with a male, an enjoyment of sexual potency in a homosexual competition."
Wylted
Posts: 21,167
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/22/2014 8:27:14 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/22/2014 7:47:39 PM, Questionner wrote:
Sswdwm and NiqashMotawadi3:

At 3/22/2014 5:43:30 PM, Sswdwm wrote:
You really only need to look as far as child psychology, and the negative effect paedophilic relationships have in the long term on the delicate minds of the minors involved.

It doesn't matter if it's fully concentual, or even if the minor experiences real emotions of 'love', the data is in and the concequences are overwhelmingly negative, and should therefore not tolerated.
http://www.hiddenmysteries.org... (some random arcticle I just read, I'm sure higher quality ones are easily found via google)


The problem with these studies, Sswdwm, is that they lump kids who have been raped and kids who engaged into consensual sexual activity into the same category despite the fact that kids from the first group are, a priori, far more likely to be traumatized by the experience itself than those from the second group.

The kids from the second group can be traumatized, there's no denying that, but the fact remains that these are not the negative psychological effects of pedophile relationships, they're the negative effects of society's response to pedophilic relationships. That response ought to be blamed for the negative psychological consequences, not the sex on itself, like I said in my original post. So why attack pedophiles first instead of attacking society first in order to make it a less hostile environment for pedophiles and kids who have been in pedophilic relationships to grow up in?

Pedophiles especially predatory ones, like the one you mention are capable of being delusional.

A common phenomenon among pedophiles is convincing themselves that their actions aren't harmful to the child in question. A lot of times they are shocked to find out their victim committed suicide or displays other signs of PTSD.

Lawson L. (2003 September"November;). "Isolation, gratification, justification: offenders' explanations of child molesting". Issues Ment Health Nurs. (6-7): (24): 695"705. PMID 12907384.
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/22/2014 8:27:15 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/22/2014 8:25:53 PM, zmikecuber wrote:
At 3/22/2014 8:25:30 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/22/2014 8:16:27 PM, zmikecuber wrote:
At 3/22/2014 7:40:45 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Young minds are too impressionable, if he convinced her to love him he is taking advantage of her ignorance and lack of cognitive faculties. If she loves him all on her own, then he is still making a grave mistake. Not only that but a young child's vagina is too tight to handle an adult member, it would be physically damaging to her. Not to mention the psychological disorders that go along with it.

Pedophilic acts are definitely wrong to me, and I sincerely have no doubt about this.

In ancient greece they found ways to have sex with children without penetration...

Intercourse without penetration, sounds a lot like a square circle lol

Legsex.

You're still penetrating the leg cleavage, I win this round! Muahaha
zmikecuber
Posts: 4,093
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/22/2014 8:27:27 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/22/2014 8:25:30 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/22/2014 8:16:27 PM, zmikecuber wrote:
At 3/22/2014 7:40:45 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Young minds are too impressionable, if he convinced her to love him he is taking advantage of her ignorance and lack of cognitive faculties. If she loves him all on her own, then he is still making a grave mistake. Not only that but a young child's vagina is too tight to handle an adult member, it would be physically damaging to her. Not to mention the psychological disorders that go along with it.

Pedophilic acts are definitely wrong to me, and I sincerely have no doubt about this.

In ancient greece they found ways to have sex with children without penetration...

Intercourse without penetration, sounds a lot like a square circle lol

Ancient greeks are messed up pervs.

I decided to read Great Dialoges of Plato all the way through... and I stopped when Socrates was looking at the young guy's muscular frame feeling waves of pasison... lol. They thought when a fetus messed up in its growth, a woman occured. So women were literally "mistakes" So I guess that explains why they saw sex between men as sex between equals
"Delete your fvcking sig" -1hard

"primal man had the habit, when he came into contact with fire, of satisfying the infantile desire connected with it, by putting it out with a stream of his urine... Putting out the fire by micturating was therefore a kind of sexual act with a male, an enjoyment of sexual potency in a homosexual competition."
zmikecuber
Posts: 4,093
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/22/2014 8:28:56 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/22/2014 8:27:15 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/22/2014 8:25:53 PM, zmikecuber wrote:
At 3/22/2014 8:25:30 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 3/22/2014 8:16:27 PM, zmikecuber wrote:
At 3/22/2014 7:40:45 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Young minds are too impressionable, if he convinced her to love him he is taking advantage of her ignorance and lack of cognitive faculties. If she loves him all on her own, then he is still making a grave mistake. Not only that but a young child's vagina is too tight to handle an adult member, it would be physically damaging to her. Not to mention the psychological disorders that go along with it.

Pedophilic acts are definitely wrong to me, and I sincerely have no doubt about this.

In ancient greece they found ways to have sex with children without penetration...

Intercourse without penetration, sounds a lot like a square circle lol

Legsex.

You're still penetrating the leg cleavage, I win this round! Muahaha

No, it was the knee cap they did it on. That and between the big toe and other toe...
"Delete your fvcking sig" -1hard

"primal man had the habit, when he came into contact with fire, of satisfying the infantile desire connected with it, by putting it out with a stream of his urine... Putting out the fire by micturating was therefore a kind of sexual act with a male, an enjoyment of sexual potency in a homosexual competition."
Juan_Pablo
Posts: 2,052
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/22/2014 8:38:20 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/22/2014 5:22:46 PM, Questionner wrote:
I used to believe that pedophilic acts were a horrible, horrible crime. But then I came across the testimony of a pedophile (named X) who claimed to be in a relationship with a girl of an age still in single digits. It really made me think...

Contrary to what the popular image of the evil pedophile who uses kids just for his own selfish sexual satisfaction and then discards them would have you think, he claims to actually love her and care about her. She likes him so much she asks to see him and wants to be around him all the time, too. They play many other games together (as adults do with kids), sex is just one thing among many others that they do. And when they do have sex, he claims to never do anything to her that she doesn't want to do.

He claims to always use protection with each sexual contact and teaches her about the importance of protection too, along with giving her overall sexual education.

What is so wrong about that kind of pedophilic relationship?

Your first reactions are most likely revolt and anger, but it's an earnest question that I'm asking here. I'm not starting this topic to offend and infuriate.

X has battled with self-hate because of his sexual orientation and has been the victim of hate and aggression purely because of his attraction. Basically, he's dealing with the difficulties homosexuals often struggle with (in conservative/religious areas), but multiplied ten folds, given that pedophiles are socially seen as the worst of the worst. Even in jail, they're at the bottom of the food chain.

I understand why the morality of pedophilic acts is a grey area (or simply a black one for many), but when it comes to the morality of simply being a pedophile (as in, feeling an attraction towards kids without necessarily acting on these urges), the answer seems clear as day to me: It is definitely not wrong.
It makes no sense to hate or want to punish a person simply for feeling an attraction. An attraction is not a choice, it's something that's just there and the fact that people could possibly have an issue with an attraction that a person can't control (without being religious) is simply beyond me. Pedophilia is just like homosexuality in that regard.

But back to pedophilic acts, the arguments I often hear against them are the following:

1. Kids cannot give informed consent.
2. It destroys the kid's innocence.
3. It's harmful to kids psychologically and physically.

Here's what I think of them:

1. Why is that an issue? Kids cannot give informed consent to anything they do, they aren't able to evaluate the risks and consequences of anything as well as an adult can and yet they're allowed to do a lot of pleasurable activities, why allow all these other things but not sex even when the child wants to partake in it?

2. I don't get why people even say that. Why treat sex like a nasty, criminal thing that "takes your innocence away"? Sex is not a misdeed or a crime. None of us would be there if it wasn't for sex. It's a natural and healthy activity. Why should kids be shielded from it like it's inherently dirty or wrong? Why are kids not allowed to watch media that have sexual content if it isn't inherently dirty or wrong?

3. Kids who've had pedophilic relationships are said to experience trauma and shame. But is this the result of the pedophilic act on itself, or isn't that rather the result of society telling them that they are poor, broken victims that have experienced something horrible? It seems more likely to me that victims feel like it's a traumatizing experience because the whole world tells him/her that that's how he/she should feel, because there is nothing inherently traumatizing about sex (your parents turned out fine, right? And yet you're here). If society is the culprit, shouldn't we aim to change society instead of forcing pedophiles to conform to society's erroneous views?

That's why X said that he's careful about educating his girlfriend about societal views and the fact that they're dangerous so that she doesn't feel traumatized as a result of being influenced by societal views.

And to make things clear, I am talking about consensual sexual activity with a child here, not forced sexual activity with a child. A child will surely be traumatized by a rape, just like an adult would - rape is definitely wrong no matter what age the victim is.
If you're thinking "kids can't consent, so pedophilic acts are rape by definition", I mean "consensual" in the sense that the kid express that he/she wants to do it and doesn't show any signs of disapproval, like it was the case in X's testimony.

As for physical harm, the risks of diseases or pregnancy is greatly reduced by the use of protection (which the adult should always use with a kid) and anal sex should just not be done (because of the tearing risks). Vaginal sex should also be avoided for the same reasons if the girl is really, really small, but that leaves oral or touch with the hands (X has only mentioned that type of sex, I don't think he does have sex of the two other types with her. Besides, the kid would most likely express dissent because of the pain if the adult tried to have that type of sex, so that would most likely not happen with it being a rape. And rape is, I repeat, wrong).
Protection is not 100% effective, sure, but nothing of what kids are allowed to do is without risk, right? Now, of course that's not a reason to allow kids any risky activity, kids are prohibited activities that are very dangerous, but is sex really one of these activities given that latex condoms are close to 100% effective when used correctly? Kids can also injure themselves while playing sports (and yet they can play sports for fun), die in a plane crash (and yet they're allowed to fly), catch something bad/infectious in the foods that they eat (and yet they're allowed to eat for fun. And to survive, yes, but you won't refuse an ice cream to your little cousin just because "you have already had your minimum food intake needed for survival and health today. Anything more is too 'risky' ") and so on.

So why is pedophilia so particularly demonized, despised and illegal in our culture?

I am not a pedophile myself. Really, I'm not. I know about the trick of speaking of oneself in the third person to hide the fact that you're speaking about yourself, but X is really not me. (And I know that I can't prove that I'm telling the truth so you'll keep believing I'm lying if that's what you feel like doing, but at least you have my version of events and you can't disprove its veracity either). I am just a person who has a fierce aversion towards injustice in general, be it homophobia, racism, sexism,... You don't persecute people just for having a difference that they can't control, it's just wrong for obvious reasons. So, I can't help imagining myself in X's place, being a pedophile in a society filled with people who would gladly insult me, vandalize my property or come to murder me if they knew what I am, and feel like it's a horrible, horrible place to be. He looked like a guy with good intentions and he's found a way to soothe his pedophilic urges all the while being respectful and caring of a young girl who says she loves him and encourages him to do so, so if they're both happy that way, who are we to meddle?

Please, don't let emotions get the best of you. I just want to have a rational, productive discussion about this to find out if I'm wrong or not. I repeat that no offense was intended.

If I were in your shoes and I knew this pedophile were currently in an intimate relationship with the child (with an age in the single digits) I would report him to the police immediately!

Pedophilia is a degenerate crime of emotional manipulation and abuse. It deserves many, many
Juan_Pablo
Posts: 2,052
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/22/2014 8:40:58 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/22/2014 8:38:20 PM, Juan_Pablo wrote:
At 3/22/2014 5:22:46 PM, Questionner wrote:
I used to believe that pedophilic acts were a horrible, horrible crime. But then I came across the testimony of a pedophile (named X) who claimed to be in a relationship with a girl of an age still in single digits. It really made me think...

Contrary to what the popular image of the evil pedophile who uses kids just for his own selfish sexual satisfaction and then discards them would have you think, he claims to actually love her and care about her. She likes him so much she asks to see him and wants to be around him all the time, too. They play many other games together (as adults do with kids), sex is just one thing among many others that they do. And when they do have sex, he claims to never do anything to her that she doesn't want to do.

He claims to always use protection with each sexual contact and teaches her about the importance of protection too, along with giving her overall sexual education.

What is so wrong about that kind of pedophilic relationship?

Your first reactions are most likely revolt and anger, but it's an earnest question that I'm asking here. I'm not starting this topic to offend and infuriate.

X has battled with self-hate because of his sexual orientation and has been the victim of hate and aggression purely because of his attraction. Basically, he's dealing with the difficulties homosexuals often struggle with (in conservative/religious areas), but multiplied ten folds, given that pedophiles are socially seen as the worst of the worst. Even in jail, they're at the bottom of the food chain.

I understand why the morality of pedophilic acts is a grey area (or simply a black one for many), but when it comes to the morality of simply being a pedophile (as in, feeling an attraction towards kids without necessarily acting on these urges), the answer seems clear as day to me: It is definitely not wrong.
It makes no sense to hate or want to punish a person simply for feeling an attraction. An attraction is not a choice, it's something that's just there and the fact that people could possibly have an issue with an attraction that a person can't control (without being religious) is simply beyond me. Pedophilia is just like homosexuality in that regard.

But back to pedophilic acts, the arguments I often hear against them are the following:

1. Kids cannot give informed consent.
2. It destroys the kid's innocence.
3. It's harmful to kids psychologically and physically.

Here's what I think of them:

1. Why is that an issue? Kids cannot give informed consent to anything they do, they aren't able to evaluate the risks and consequences of anything as well as an adult can and yet they're allowed to do a lot of pleasurable activities, why allow all these other things but not sex even when the child wants to partake in it?

2. I don't get why people even say that. Why treat sex like a nasty, criminal thing that "takes your innocence away"? Sex is not a misdeed or a crime. None of us would be there if it wasn't for sex. It's a natural and healthy activity. Why should kids be shielded from it like it's inherently dirty or wrong? Why are kids not allowed to watch media that have sexual content if it isn't inherently dirty or wrong?

3. Kids who've had pedophilic relationships are said to experience trauma and shame. But is this the result of the pedophilic act on itself, or isn't that rather the result of society telling them that they are poor, broken victims that have experienced something horrible? It seems more likely to me that victims feel like it's a traumatizing experience because the whole world tells him/her that that's how he/she should feel, because there is nothing inherently traumatizing about sex (your parents turned out fine, right? And yet you're here). If society is the culprit, shouldn't we aim to change society instead of forcing pedophiles to conform to society's erroneous views?

That's why X said that he's careful about educating his girlfriend about societal views and the fact that they're dangerous so that she doesn't feel traumatized as a result of being influenced by societal views.

And to make things clear, I am talking about consensual sexual activity with a child here, not forced sexual activity with a child. A child will surely be traumatized by a rape, just like an adult would - rape is definitely wrong no matter what age the victim is.
If you're thinking "kids can't consent, so pedophilic acts are rape by definition", I mean "consensual" in the sense that the kid express that he/she wants to do it and doesn't show any signs of disapproval, like it was the case in X's testimony.

As for physical harm, the risks of diseases or pregnancy is greatly reduced by the use of protection (which the adult should always use with a kid) and anal sex should just not be done (because of the tearing risks). Vaginal sex should also be avoided for the same reasons if the girl is really, really small, but that leaves oral or touch with the hands (X has only mentioned that type of sex, I don't think he does have sex of the two other types with her. Besides, the kid would most likely express dissent because of the pain if the adult tried to have that type of sex, so that would most likely not happen with it being a rape. And rape is, I repeat, wrong).
Protection is not 100% effective, sure, but nothing of what kids are allowed to do is without risk, right? Now, of course that's not a reason to allow kids any risky activity, kids are prohibited activities that are very dangerous, but is sex really one of these activities given that latex condoms are close to 100% effective when used correctly? Kids can also injure themselves while playing sports (and yet they can play sports for fun), die in a plane crash (and yet they're allowed to fly), catch something bad/infectious in the foods that they eat (and yet they're allowed to eat for fun. And to survive, yes, but you won't refuse an ice cream to your little cousin just because "you have already had your minimum food intake needed for survival and health today. Anything more is too 'risky' ") and so on.

So why is pedophilia so particularly demonized, despised and illegal in our culture?

I am not a pedophile myself. Really, I'm not. I know about the trick of speaking of oneself in the third person to hide the fact that you're speaking about yourself, but X is really not me. (And I know that I can't prove that I'm telling the truth so you'll keep believing I'm lying if that's what you feel like doing, but at least you have my version of events and you can't disprove its veracity either). I am just a person who has a fierce aversion towards injustice in general, be it homophobia, racism, sexism,... You don't persecute people just for having a difference that they can't control, it's just wrong for obvious reasons. So, I can't help imagining myself in X's place, being a pedophile in a society filled with people who would gladly insult me, vandalize my property or come to murder me if they knew what I am, and feel like it's a horrible, horrible place to be. He looked like a guy with good intentions and he's found a way to soothe his pedophilic urges all the while being respectful and caring of a young girl who says she loves him and encourages him to do so, so if they're both happy that way, who are we to meddle?


If I were in your shoes and I knew this pedophile were currently in an intimate relationship with the child (with an age in the single digits) I would report him to the police immediately!

Pedophilia is a degenerate crime of emotional manipulation, control, and abuse. It deserves many, many years of incarceration!
R0b1Billion
Posts: 3,733
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/22/2014 9:05:17 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Pedophilia is impossible to defend, and you certainly did not make an exceptional argument! A relationship between lovers needs to be equal. We draw strength and guidance from our lovers, and that's part of the functionality of the relationship. An adult is not equal to a child, because they have so many more life experiences. It's not just the law that prevents children from giving consent, there's a philosophical basis to assert that children, until they are more developed, don't have the free-will necessary to enter into a sexual relationship. Obviously, when the children become adults and gain free will, they would look back and regret being sexually active with an adult that is so pathetic as to take advantage of a child in such a way. Adults are supposed to protect children, not take advantage of their inexperience to sate their sexual desires.
Beliefs in a nutshell:
- The Ends never justify the Means.
- Objectivity is secondary to subjectivity.
- The War on Drugs is the worst policy in the U.S.
- Most people worship technology as a religion.
- Computers will never become sentient.
Jifpop09
Posts: 2,243
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/22/2014 9:06:20 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/22/2014 5:22:46 PM, Questionner wrote:
I used to believe that pedophilic acts were a horrible, horrible crime. But then I came across the testimony of a pedophile (named X) who claimed to be in a relationship with a girl of an age still in single digits. It really made me think...

Contrary to what the popular image of the evil pedophile who uses kids just for his own selfish sexual satisfaction and then discards them would have you think, he claims to actually love her and care about her. She likes him so much she asks to see him and wants to be around him all the time, too. They play many other games together (as adults do with kids), sex is just one thing among many others that they do. And when they do have sex, he claims to never do anything to her that she doesn't want to do.

He claims to always use protection with each sexual contact and teaches her about the importance of protection too, along with giving her overall sexual education.

What is so wrong about that kind of pedophilic relationship?

Your first reactions are most likely revolt and anger, but it's an earnest question that I'm asking here. I'm not starting this topic to offend and infuriate.

X has battled with self-hate because of his sexual orientation and has been the victim of hate and aggression purely because of his attraction. Basically, he's dealing with the difficulties homosexuals often struggle with (in conservative/religious areas), but multiplied ten folds, given that pedophiles are socially seen as the worst of the worst. Even in jail, they're at the bottom of the food chain.

I understand why the morality of pedophilic acts is a grey area (or simply a black one for many), but when it comes to the morality of simply being a pedophile (as in, feeling an attraction towards kids without necessarily acting on these urges), the answer seems clear as day to me: It is definitely not wrong.
It makes no sense to hate or want to punish a person simply for feeling an attraction. An attraction is not a choice, it's something that's just there and the fact that people could possibly have an issue with an attraction that a person can't control (without being religious) is simply beyond me. Pedophilia is just like homosexuality in that regard.

But back to pedophilic acts, the arguments I often hear against them are the following:

1. Kids cannot give informed consent.
2. It destroys the kid's innocence.
3. It's harmful to kids psychologically and physically.

Here's what I think of them:

1. Why is that an issue? Kids cannot give informed consent to anything they do, they aren't able to evaluate the risks and consequences of anything as well as an adult can and yet they're allowed to do a lot of pleasurable activities, why allow all these other things but not sex even when the child wants to partake in it?

2. I don't get why people even say that. Why treat sex like a nasty, criminal thing that "takes your innocence away"? Sex is not a misdeed or a crime. None of us would be there if it wasn't for sex. It's a natural and healthy activity. Why should kids be shielded from it like it's inherently dirty or wrong? Why are kids not allowed to watch media that have sexual content if it isn't inherently dirty or wrong?

3. Kids who've had pedophilic relationships are said to experience trauma and shame. But is this the result of the pedophilic act on itself, or isn't that rather the result of society telling them that they are poor, broken victims that have experienced something horrible? It seems more likely to me that victims feel like it's a traumatizing experience because the whole world tells him/her that that's how he/she should feel, because there is nothing inherently traumatizing about sex (your parents turned out fine, right? And yet you're here). If society is the culprit, shouldn't we aim to change society instead of forcing pedophiles to conform to society's erroneous views?

That's why X said that he's careful about educating his girlfriend about societal views and the fact that they're dangerous so that she doesn't feel traumatized as a result of being influenced by societal views.

And to make things clear, I am talking about consensual sexual activity with a child here, not forced sexual activity with a child. A child will surely be traumatized by a rape, just like an adult would - rape is definitely wrong no matter what age the victim is.
If you're thinking "kids can't consent, so pedophilic acts are rape by definition", I mean "consensual" in the sense that the kid express that he/she wants to do it and doesn't show any signs of disapproval, like it was the case in X's testimony.

As for physical harm, the risks of diseases or pregnancy is greatly reduced by the use of protection (which the adult should always use with a kid) and anal sex should just not be done (because of the tearing risks). Vaginal sex should also be avoided for the same reasons if the girl is really, really small, but that leaves oral or touch with the hands (X has only mentioned that type of sex, I don't think he does have sex of the two other types with her. Besides, the kid would most likely express dissent because of the pain if the adult tried to have that type of sex, so that would most likely not happen with it being a rape. And rape is, I repeat, wrong).
Protection is not 100% effective, sure, but nothing of what kids are allowed to do is without risk, right? Now, of course that's not a reason to allow kids any risky activity, kids are prohibited activities that are very dangerous, but is sex really one of these activities given that latex condoms are close to 100% effective when used correctly? Kids can also injure themselves while playing sports (and yet they can play sports for fun), die in a plane crash (and yet they're allowed to fly), catch something bad/infectious in the foods that they eat (and yet they're allowed to eat for fun. And to survive, yes, but you won't refuse an ice cream to your little cousin just because "you have already had your minimum food intake needed for survival and health today. Anything more is too 'risky' ") and so on.

So why is pedophilia so particularly demonized, despised and illegal in our culture?

I am not a pedophile myself. Really, I'm not. I know about the trick of speaking of oneself in the third person to hide the fact that you're speaking about yourself, but X is really not me. (And I know that I can't prove that I'm telling the truth so you'll keep believing I'm lying if that's what you feel like doing, but at least you have my version of events and you can't disprove its veracity either). I am just a person who has a fierce aversion towards injustice in general, be it homophobia, racism, sexism,... You don't persecute people just for having a difference that they can't control, it's just wrong for obvious reasons. So, I can't help imagining myself in X's place, being a pedophile in a society filled with people who would gladly insult me, vandalize my property or come to murder me if they knew what I am, and feel like it's a horrible, horrible place to be. He looked like a guy with good intentions and he's found a way to soothe his pedophilic urges all the while being respectful and caring of a young girl who says she loves him and encourages him to do so, so if they're both happy that way, who are we to meddle?

Please, don't let emotions get the best of you. I just want to have a rational, productive discussion about this to find out if I'm wrong or not. I repeat that no offense was intended.

Holy fuk buckets, you need help.
Leader of the DDO Revolution Party
R0b1Billion
Posts: 3,733
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/22/2014 9:33:58 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/22/2014 9:06:20 PM, Jifpop09 wrote:

Holy fuk buckets, you need help.

A response of pure ignorance.
Beliefs in a nutshell:
- The Ends never justify the Means.
- Objectivity is secondary to subjectivity.
- The War on Drugs is the worst policy in the U.S.
- Most people worship technology as a religion.
- Computers will never become sentient.
Jifpop09
Posts: 2,243
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/22/2014 9:37:20 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/22/2014 9:33:58 PM, R0b1Billion wrote:
At 3/22/2014 9:06:20 PM, Jifpop09 wrote:

Holy fuk buckets, you need help.

A response of pure ignorance.

I was not being ignorant. I read his arguments, and found no justification for having sex with a young girl.
Leader of the DDO Revolution Party
R0b1Billion
Posts: 3,733
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/22/2014 9:42:37 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/22/2014 9:37:20 PM, Jifpop09 wrote:
At 3/22/2014 9:33:58 PM, R0b1Billion wrote:
At 3/22/2014 9:06:20 PM, Jifpop09 wrote:

Holy fuk buckets, you need help.

A response of pure ignorance.

I was not being ignorant. I read his arguments, and found no justification for having sex with a young girl.

He presented an argument, either you can respond to his points or ignore him but telling him he needs help is a rather crude response and it obviously wasn't meant to be constructive. If everybody in the world who had unusual opinions about sex brought them up in public discourse like he did, I think it would provide much more opportunity for correction - don't you agree?
Beliefs in a nutshell:
- The Ends never justify the Means.
- Objectivity is secondary to subjectivity.
- The War on Drugs is the worst policy in the U.S.
- Most people worship technology as a religion.
- Computers will never become sentient.
Jifpop09
Posts: 2,243
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/22/2014 9:43:53 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/22/2014 9:42:37 PM, R0b1Billion wrote:
At 3/22/2014 9:37:20 PM, Jifpop09 wrote:
At 3/22/2014 9:33:58 PM, R0b1Billion wrote:
At 3/22/2014 9:06:20 PM, Jifpop09 wrote:

Holy fuk buckets, you need help.

A response of pure ignorance.

I was not being ignorant. I read his arguments, and found no justification for having sex with a young girl.

He presented an argument, either you can respond to his points or ignore him but telling him he needs help is a rather crude response and it obviously wasn't meant to be constructive. If everybody in the world who had unusual opinions about sex brought them up in public discourse like he did, I think it would provide much more opportunity for correction - don't you agree?

Its a forum. I don't always need to respond with a long argument. Theirs no regulation, and I'm not in the mood to debate someone right now. Just how I feel, so chill out.
Leader of the DDO Revolution Party
R0b1Billion
Posts: 3,733
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/22/2014 9:44:53 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/22/2014 9:43:53 PM, Jifpop09 wrote:
At 3/22/2014 9:42:37 PM, R0b1Billion wrote:
At 3/22/2014 9:37:20 PM, Jifpop09 wrote:
At 3/22/2014 9:33:58 PM, R0b1Billion wrote:
At 3/22/2014 9:06:20 PM, Jifpop09 wrote:

Holy fuk buckets, you need help.

A response of pure ignorance.

I was not being ignorant. I read his arguments, and found no justification for having sex with a young girl.

He presented an argument, either you can respond to his points or ignore him but telling him he needs help is a rather crude response and it obviously wasn't meant to be constructive. If everybody in the world who had unusual opinions about sex brought them up in public discourse like he did, I think it would provide much more opportunity for correction - don't you agree?

Its a forum. I don't always need to respond with a long argument. Theirs no regulation, and I'm not in the mood to debate someone right now. Just how I feel, so chill out.

Your parents forgot to instill in you to either say something nice or keep your trap shut!
Beliefs in a nutshell:
- The Ends never justify the Means.
- Objectivity is secondary to subjectivity.
- The War on Drugs is the worst policy in the U.S.
- Most people worship technology as a religion.
- Computers will never become sentient.
Jifpop09
Posts: 2,243
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/22/2014 9:45:56 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/22/2014 9:44:53 PM, R0b1Billion wrote:
At 3/22/2014 9:43:53 PM, Jifpop09 wrote:
At 3/22/2014 9:42:37 PM, R0b1Billion wrote:
At 3/22/2014 9:37:20 PM, Jifpop09 wrote:
At 3/22/2014 9:33:58 PM, R0b1Billion wrote:
At 3/22/2014 9:06:20 PM, Jifpop09 wrote:

Holy fuk buckets, you need help.

A response of pure ignorance.

I was not being ignorant. I read his arguments, and found no justification for having sex with a young girl.

He presented an argument, either you can respond to his points or ignore him but telling him he needs help is a rather crude response and it obviously wasn't meant to be constructive. If everybody in the world who had unusual opinions about sex brought them up in public discourse like he did, I think it would provide much more opportunity for correction - don't you agree?

Its a forum. I don't always need to respond with a long argument. Theirs no regulation, and I'm not in the mood to debate someone right now. Just how I feel, so chill out.

Your parents forgot to instill in you to either say something nice or keep your trap shut!

Seriously dude, chill out. Your obviously in the mood to flame someone over nothing. Are you seriously THAT upset with me expressing my response?
Leader of the DDO Revolution Party
R0b1Billion
Posts: 3,733
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/22/2014 9:47:21 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/22/2014 9:45:56 PM, Jifpop09 wrote:
At 3/22/2014 9:44:53 PM, R0b1Billion wrote:
At 3/22/2014 9:43:53 PM, Jifpop09 wrote:
At 3/22/2014 9:42:37 PM, R0b1Billion wrote:
At 3/22/2014 9:37:20 PM, Jifpop09 wrote:
At 3/22/2014 9:33:58 PM, R0b1Billion wrote:
At 3/22/2014 9:06:20 PM, Jifpop09 wrote:

Holy fuk buckets, you need help.

A response of pure ignorance.

I was not being ignorant. I read his arguments, and found no justification for having sex with a young girl.

He presented an argument, either you can respond to his points or ignore him but telling him he needs help is a rather crude response and it obviously wasn't meant to be constructive. If everybody in the world who had unusual opinions about sex brought them up in public discourse like he did, I think it would provide much more opportunity for correction - don't you agree?

Its a forum. I don't always need to respond with a long argument. Theirs no regulation, and I'm not in the mood to debate someone right now. Just how I feel, so chill out.

Your parents forgot to instill in you to either say something nice or keep your trap shut!

Seriously dude, chill out. Your obviously in the mood to flame someone over nothing. Are you seriously THAT upset with me expressing my response?

Do you even lift, bro?
Beliefs in a nutshell:
- The Ends never justify the Means.
- Objectivity is secondary to subjectivity.
- The War on Drugs is the worst policy in the U.S.
- Most people worship technology as a religion.
- Computers will never become sentient.
zmikecuber
Posts: 4,093
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/22/2014 10:00:39 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/22/2014 9:47:21 PM, R0b1Billion wrote:
At 3/22/2014 9:45:56 PM, Jifpop09 wrote:
At 3/22/2014 9:44:53 PM, R0b1Billion wrote:
At 3/22/2014 9:43:53 PM, Jifpop09 wrote:
At 3/22/2014 9:42:37 PM, R0b1Billion wrote:
At 3/22/2014 9:37:20 PM, Jifpop09 wrote:
At 3/22/2014 9:33:58 PM, R0b1Billion wrote:
At 3/22/2014 9:06:20 PM, Jifpop09 wrote:

Holy fuk buckets, you need help.

A response of pure ignorance.

I was not being ignorant. I read his arguments, and found no justification for having sex with a young girl.

He presented an argument, either you can respond to his points or ignore him but telling him he needs help is a rather crude response and it obviously wasn't meant to be constructive. If everybody in the world who had unusual opinions about sex brought them up in public discourse like he did, I think it would provide much more opportunity for correction - don't you agree?

Its a forum. I don't always need to respond with a long argument. Theirs no regulation, and I'm not in the mood to debate someone right now. Just how I feel, so chill out.

Your parents forgot to instill in you to either say something nice or keep your trap shut!

Seriously dude, chill out. Your obviously in the mood to flame someone over nothing. Are you seriously THAT upset with me expressing my response?

Do you even lift, bro?

I lifted my eyebrows when reading over this.
"Delete your fvcking sig" -1hard

"primal man had the habit, when he came into contact with fire, of satisfying the infantile desire connected with it, by putting it out with a stream of his urine... Putting out the fire by micturating was therefore a kind of sexual act with a male, an enjoyment of sexual potency in a homosexual competition."
Jifpop09
Posts: 2,243
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/22/2014 10:01:16 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/22/2014 9:47:21 PM, R0b1Billion wrote:
At 3/22/2014 9:45:56 PM, Jifpop09 wrote:
At 3/22/2014 9:44:53 PM, R0b1Billion wrote:
At 3/22/2014 9:43:53 PM, Jifpop09 wrote:
At 3/22/2014 9:42:37 PM, R0b1Billion wrote:
At 3/22/2014 9:37:20 PM, Jifpop09 wrote:
At 3/22/2014 9:33:58 PM, R0b1Billion wrote:
At 3/22/2014 9:06:20 PM, Jifpop09 wrote:

Holy fuk buckets, you need help.

A response of pure ignorance.

I was not being ignorant. I read his arguments, and found no justification for having sex with a young girl.

He presented an argument, either you can respond to his points or ignore him but telling him he needs help is a rather crude response and it obviously wasn't meant to be constructive. If everybody in the world who had unusual opinions about sex brought them up in public discourse like he did, I think it would provide much more opportunity for correction - don't you agree?

Its a forum. I don't always need to respond with a long argument. Theirs no regulation, and I'm not in the mood to debate someone right now. Just how I feel, so chill out.

Your parents forgot to instill in you to either say something nice or keep your trap shut!

Seriously dude, chill out. Your obviously in the mood to flame someone over nothing. Are you seriously THAT upset with me expressing my response?

Do you even lift, bro?

Holy $hit, I understand what this is about. I'm sorry man, I had no idea...

https://www.google.com...
Leader of the DDO Revolution Party
Questionner
Posts: 233
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/23/2014 4:01:18 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
People, can you please do your best to remain on topic? I think that ehe more people joke around without debating, the less newcomers will want to read the thread and contribute.

At 3/22/2014 8:05:25 PM, ADreamOfLiberty wrote:
I'm going to read this and respond to it in good time (whuahah). However I do want to ask why there are so many of these threads? Why not just pick one of the existing pedo threads and post your argument there?


Oh, sorry. I didn't know that this issue was discussed so often here. I just googled for debates about pedophilic acts and barely found anything, so I assumed that there weren't any.

At 3/22/2014 7:40:45 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Young minds are too impressionable, if he convinced her to love him he is taking advantage of her ignorance and lack of cognitive faculties. If she loves him all on her own, then he is still making a grave mistake. Not only that but a young child's vagina is too tight to handle an adult member, it would be physically damaging to her. Not to mention the psychological disorders that go along with it.


Why is it even wrong to "convince" someone to love us? Isn't that what everybody does when they flirt/seduce, try to look their best on dates, etc. ? And yet that's not "taking advantage", it's perfecty normal behavior. I don't see how it matters that the girl is cognitively inferior. That doesn't mean it's wrong for her to experience love. Children and adults need love and affection to survive.

I said that vaginal sex was to be avoided with very small girls, but there's nothing physically damaging about oral sex or touch with the hands, right?

As for the negative psychological effects, like I said, that's society's doing, not the pedophilic sex on itself. So why not put more effort into changing societal views than into persecuting pedophiles?

I don't think I'm confusing cause and effect. There's absolutely no reason why sex, on itself, would be traumatizing for a child. It's a natural activity that adults do all the time without becoming psychologically damaged. Society just keeps ridiculously acting like sex is this super shameful, embarrassing, intimate Big Deal that reduces people's worth and should be hidden from kids's eyes lest they be Ruined Forever.
There's no reason why kids would feel horrible when the pedophilic sex is being had, but it makes sense that after growing older and being indoctrinated by society so as to view the experience from the deleterious perspective society imposes, it Becomes traumatizing.

At 3/22/2014 8:27:14 PM, Wylted wrote:
Pedophiles especially predatory ones, like the one you mention are capable of being delusional.

A common phenomenon among pedophiles is convincing themselves that their actions aren't harmful to the child in question. A lot of times they are shocked to find out their victim committed suicide or displays other signs of PTSD.

Lawson L. (2003 September"November;). "Isolation, gratification, justification: offenders' explanations of child molesting". Issues Ment Health Nurs. (6-7): (24): 695"705. PMID 12907384.

But everyone is able to be delusional, it's not a thing typical of pedophiles. And these studies are flawed in that they don't make a distinction between pedophilic rapists (who are a priori more likely to be deranged, not because they're pedos, but because they're rapists) and pedophiles who have sex with kids who actually consented (not informed consent, but it's still consent).

At 3/22/2014 8:40:58 PM, Juan_Pablo wrote:
Pedophilia is a degenerate crime of emotional manipulation, control and abuse.

But why do you think that? I don't see it as abusive and I've explained why in my original post.

At 3/22/2014 9:05:17 PM, R0b1Billion wrote:
Pedophilia is impossible to defend, and you certainly did not make an exceptional argument! A relationship between lovers needs to be equal. We draw strength and guidance from our lovers, and that's part of the functionality of the relationship. An adult is not equal to a child, because they have so many more life experiences. It's not just the law that prevents children from giving consent, there's a philosophical basis to assert that children, until they are more developed, don't have the free-will necessary to enter into a sexual relationship. Obviously, when the children become adults and gain free will, they would look back and regret being sexually active with an adult that is so pathetic as to take advantage of a child in such a way. Adults are supposed to protect children, not take advantage of their inexperience to sate their sexual desires.

Why do love relationships need to be equal?
So you're against 30 year olds dating 50 year olds, too? I don't see how that's anybody's business but that of the people involved.

I don't think you're using the term "free will" correctly here. Free will is not something one gains as they grow up, what one gains is physical maturity and experiences that enables one to make better judgements. But what is the "philosophical basis" that justifies that this ability to make better judgements should be needed for a child to have sex while it's not needed for all the other fun activities children are allowed to do?

How can you be so sure that a kid who's been in a relationship with a pedophile who cared, loved and respected him/her (like X does) would regret the sexual activity? I don't think we can get our hands on any study that demonstrates that. And a priori, the idea that they will regret it is not that obvious. They will if they're brainwashed by society, but without the brainwashing it seems more likely to me that they won't.
ADreamOfLiberty
Posts: 1,570
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/23/2014 9:47:12 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/22/2014 5:22:46 PM, Questionner wrote:
I used to believe that pedophilic acts were a horrible, horrible crime. But then I came across the testimony of a pedophile (named X) who claimed to be in a relationship with a girl of an age still in single digits. It really made me think...

That he was crazy.

Contrary to what the popular image of the evil pedophile who uses kids just for his own selfish sexual satisfaction and then discards them would have you think, he claims to actually love her and care about her. She likes him so much she asks to see him and wants to be around him all the time, too. They play many other games together (as adults do with kids), sex is just one thing among many others that they do. And when they do have sex, he claims to never do anything to her that she doesn't want to do.

He claims to always use protection with each sexual contact and teaches her about the importance of protection too, along with giving her overall sexual education.

What is so wrong about that kind of pedophilic relationship?

Single digits, highly unlikely she's hit puberty; therefore highly unlikely that she is enjoying the sexual acts. Sure she can say that this is worse than that. She can make the conscious decision that she will tolerate them. That's not good enough when it's an absolute fact. Sex is at least in theory supposed to be enjoyable for both parties.

Even if you don't manage that every single time, there must be the pretense of that as a goal. Otherwise when this little girl grows up shes going to come to the only logical conclusion possible. He's bribing her with the other things to get pleasure she couldn't possibly share in or understand.

He is giving her the worst sex education she can get. He's making a whore of her before she's even chosen a major. Only the rarest person is going to be able to come out of this without serious regrets.

He should have waited. He should have sought the permission of her parents or legal guardians. If that is unlikely to ever get him the sex he wants he needs to come to terms with that.

Your first reactions are most likely revolt and anger, but it's an earnest question that I'm asking here. I'm not starting this topic to offend and infuriate.

Sign me up. The more something revolts or infuriates me, the more I see the need to be objective about it.

X has battled with self-hate because of his sexual orientation and has been the victim of hate and aggression purely because of his attraction. Basically, he's dealing with the difficulties homosexuals often struggle with (in conservative/religious areas), but multiplied ten folds, given that pedophiles are socially seen as the worst of the worst. Even in jail, they're at the bottom of the food chain.

Noted, however this is irrelevant to the welfare of the child and his actions will earn him more hate than just attractions ever could.

1. Kids cannot give informed consent.

False, but somehow I doubt your pal checked first.

2. It destroys the kid's innocence.

Only presuming sex is a sin.

3. It's harmful to kids psychologically and physically.

Relevant.

That's why X said that he's careful about educating his girlfriend about societal views and the fact that they're dangerous so that she doesn't feel traumatized as a result of being influenced by societal views.

What did she say? Did he tell her that because of his sexual orientation he wouldn't be sexually attracted to her when she grew up? That he would find some other little girl?

And to make things clear, I am talking about consensual sexual activity with a child here, not forced sexual activity with a child.

You made that clear, it is not what concerns me in this case.

If you're thinking "kids can't consent, so pedophilic acts are rape by definition", I mean "consensual" in the sense that the kid express that he/she wants to do it and doesn't show any signs of disapproval, like it was the case in X's testimony.

i.e. you mean the actual definition of consent.

As for physical harm, the risks of diseases or pregnancy is greatly reduced by the use of protection (which the adult should always use with a kid)

Greatly reduced isn't good enough if the child is the female. It needs to be 0%. The guy needs to get surgery first.

anal sex should just not be done (because of the tearing risks). Vaginal sex should also be avoided for the same reasons if the girl is really, really small, but that leaves oral or touch with the hands (X has only mentioned that type of sex, I don't think he does have sex of the two other types with her.

Those are still sexual acts. If she cannot be aroused she cannot truly understand why he desires them.

I am not a pedophile myself. Really, I'm not. I know about the trick of speaking of oneself in the third person to hide the fact that you're speaking about yourself, but X is really not me.

No one interesting in debating the topic will care.

So, I can't help imagining myself in X's place, being a pedophile in a society filled with people who would gladly insult me, vandalize my property or come to murder me if they knew what I am, and feel like it's a horrible, horrible place to be.

Yea.... it is.
LOL, yeah, it's pretty amazing how they think they can "reason" with you. - Sidewalker, speaking of advocates for sexual deviancy.

So, my advice, Liberty, is to go somewhere else. Leave, and never come back. - YYW

And that's what I did. Contact me at http://www.edeb8.com... by the same user name if you have anything you'd like to say.