Total Posts:47|Showing Posts:1-30|Last Page
Jump to topic:

Can God Gain Knowledge?

zmikecuber
Posts: 4,073
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/14/2014 9:53:20 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/14/2014 9:07:46 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Yes or no... discuss.

No. Not if he's omniscient, lol.

I find it interesting that even when you were an atheist and now, your forum topics were almost always about God...
"Delete your fvcking sig" -1hard

"primal man had the habit, when he came into contact with fire, of satisfying the infantile desire connected with it, by putting it out with a stream of his urine... Putting out the fire by micturating was therefore a kind of sexual act with a male, an enjoyment of sexual potency in a homosexual competition."
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/14/2014 9:58:37 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/14/2014 9:53:20 PM, zmikecuber wrote:
At 4/14/2014 9:07:46 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Yes or no... discuss.

No. Not if he's omniscient, lol.

So you believe God isn't in time?


I find it interesting that even when you were an atheist and now, your forum topics were almost always about God...
Benshapiro
Posts: 3,941
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/14/2014 10:34:52 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/14/2014 10:01:38 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
If God cannot gain knowledge, then God cannot exist in time.

How so?

Why would the ability to gain knowledge only be possible in the confines of time? Assuming that angelic beings are timeless and their knowledge is not infinite, why wouldn't they be able to gain knowledge in heaven - a place of timelessness?
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/14/2014 10:43:30 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/14/2014 10:34:52 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 4/14/2014 10:01:38 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
If God cannot gain knowledge, then God cannot exist in time.

How so?

Why would the ability to gain knowledge only be possible in the confines of time? Assuming that angelic beings are timeless and their knowledge is not infinite, why wouldn't they be able to gain knowledge in heaven - a place of timelessness?

I was speaking about an omniscient being specifically. Either way, I will answer your question...

To gain knowledge, is to not have knowledge, and then, to have knowledge. So you would have to go from "not knowing x", to "knowing x". That's what gaining knowledge is. The problem is that going from "not knowing x" to "knowing x" is a change. Change can only happen if there is time for it to happen. Therefore, knowledge cannot be gained in a place of timelessness. There needs to be time for this gaining of knowledge to happen. Without time, everything is static, and nothing happens.
Benshapiro
Posts: 3,941
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/14/2014 11:02:05 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/14/2014 10:43:30 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 4/14/2014 10:34:52 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 4/14/2014 10:01:38 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
If God cannot gain knowledge, then God cannot exist in time.

How so?

Why would the ability to gain knowledge only be possible in the confines of time? Assuming that angelic beings are timeless and their knowledge is not infinite, why wouldn't they be able to gain knowledge in heaven - a place of timelessness?

I was speaking about an omniscient being specifically. Either way, I will answer your question...

To gain knowledge, is to not have knowledge, and then, to have knowledge. So you would have to go from "not knowing x", to "knowing x". That's what gaining knowledge is. The problem is that going from "not knowing x" to "knowing x" is a change. Change can only happen if there is time for it to happen. Therefore, knowledge cannot be gained in a place of timelessness. There needs to be time for this gaining of knowledge to happen. Without time, everything is static, and nothing happens.

If the act of gaining knowledge requires a non-timeless existence, God would still never need to gain knowledge since he'd be omniscient.
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/14/2014 11:05:14 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/14/2014 11:02:05 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 4/14/2014 10:43:30 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 4/14/2014 10:34:52 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 4/14/2014 10:01:38 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
If God cannot gain knowledge, then God cannot exist in time.

How so?

Why would the ability to gain knowledge only be possible in the confines of time? Assuming that angelic beings are timeless and their knowledge is not infinite, why wouldn't they be able to gain knowledge in heaven - a place of timelessness?

I was speaking about an omniscient being specifically. Either way, I will answer your question...

To gain knowledge, is to not have knowledge, and then, to have knowledge. So you would have to go from "not knowing x", to "knowing x". That's what gaining knowledge is. The problem is that going from "not knowing x" to "knowing x" is a change. Change can only happen if there is time for it to happen. Therefore, knowledge cannot be gained in a place of timelessness. There needs to be time for this gaining of knowledge to happen. Without time, everything is static, and nothing happens.

If the act of gaining knowledge requires a non-timeless existence, God would still never need to gain knowledge since he'd be omniscient.

Would you like to debate this?

We can debate the resolution:

"If an omniscient being exists in time, with temporal passage, then this omniscient being necessarily gains knowledge, even though this being is omniscient."

I will argue for the motion, you will argue against the motion.
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/14/2014 11:05:56 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/14/2014 11:02:05 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 4/14/2014 10:43:30 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 4/14/2014 10:34:52 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 4/14/2014 10:01:38 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
If God cannot gain knowledge, then God cannot exist in time.

How so?

Why would the ability to gain knowledge only be possible in the confines of time? Assuming that angelic beings are timeless and their knowledge is not infinite, why wouldn't they be able to gain knowledge in heaven - a place of timelessness?

I was speaking about an omniscient being specifically. Either way, I will answer your question...

To gain knowledge, is to not have knowledge, and then, to have knowledge. So you would have to go from "not knowing x", to "knowing x". That's what gaining knowledge is. The problem is that going from "not knowing x" to "knowing x" is a change. Change can only happen if there is time for it to happen. Therefore, knowledge cannot be gained in a place of timelessness. There needs to be time for this gaining of knowledge to happen. Without time, everything is static, and nothing happens.

If the act of gaining knowledge requires a non-timeless existence, God would still never need to gain knowledge since he'd be omniscient.

Just say the word, and I'll set it up.
Benshapiro
Posts: 3,941
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/14/2014 11:10:58 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/14/2014 11:05:56 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 4/14/2014 11:02:05 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 4/14/2014 10:43:30 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 4/14/2014 10:34:52 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 4/14/2014 10:01:38 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
If God cannot gain knowledge, then God cannot exist in time.

How so?

Why would the ability to gain knowledge only be possible in the confines of time? Assuming that angelic beings are timeless and their knowledge is not infinite, why wouldn't they be able to gain knowledge in heaven - a place of timelessness?

I was speaking about an omniscient being specifically. Either way, I will answer your question...

To gain knowledge, is to not have knowledge, and then, to have knowledge. So you would have to go from "not knowing x", to "knowing x". That's what gaining knowledge is. The problem is that going from "not knowing x" to "knowing x" is a change. Change can only happen if there is time for it to happen. Therefore, knowledge cannot be gained in a place of timelessness. There needs to be time for this gaining of knowledge to happen. Without time, everything is static, and nothing happens.

If the act of gaining knowledge requires a non-timeless existence, God would still never need to gain knowledge since he'd be omniscient.

Just say the word, and I'll set it up.

I'll have to think about it. I haven't given this subject much thought so I wouldn't have much to put forth as an argument. On the surface, I don't see how existing in time requires the gain of knowledge though.
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/14/2014 11:12:24 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/14/2014 11:10:58 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 4/14/2014 11:05:56 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 4/14/2014 11:02:05 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 4/14/2014 10:43:30 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 4/14/2014 10:34:52 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 4/14/2014 10:01:38 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
If God cannot gain knowledge, then God cannot exist in time.

How so?

Why would the ability to gain knowledge only be possible in the confines of time? Assuming that angelic beings are timeless and their knowledge is not infinite, why wouldn't they be able to gain knowledge in heaven - a place of timelessness?

I was speaking about an omniscient being specifically. Either way, I will answer your question...

To gain knowledge, is to not have knowledge, and then, to have knowledge. So you would have to go from "not knowing x", to "knowing x". That's what gaining knowledge is. The problem is that going from "not knowing x" to "knowing x" is a change. Change can only happen if there is time for it to happen. Therefore, knowledge cannot be gained in a place of timelessness. There needs to be time for this gaining of knowledge to happen. Without time, everything is static, and nothing happens.

If the act of gaining knowledge requires a non-timeless existence, God would still never need to gain knowledge since he'd be omniscient.

Just say the word, and I'll set it up.

I'll have to think about it. I haven't given this subject much thought so I wouldn't have much to put forth as an argument. On the surface, I don't see how existing in time requires the gain of knowledge though.

Most people don't see it. However, philosopher William Lane Craig has a good argument for the motion, I would be using that one.
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/14/2014 11:14:57 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/14/2014 11:10:58 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 4/14/2014 11:05:56 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 4/14/2014 11:02:05 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 4/14/2014 10:43:30 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 4/14/2014 10:34:52 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 4/14/2014 10:01:38 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
If God cannot gain knowledge, then God cannot exist in time.

How so?

Why would the ability to gain knowledge only be possible in the confines of time? Assuming that angelic beings are timeless and their knowledge is not infinite, why wouldn't they be able to gain knowledge in heaven - a place of timelessness?

I was speaking about an omniscient being specifically. Either way, I will answer your question...

To gain knowledge, is to not have knowledge, and then, to have knowledge. So you would have to go from "not knowing x", to "knowing x". That's what gaining knowledge is. The problem is that going from "not knowing x" to "knowing x" is a change. Change can only happen if there is time for it to happen. Therefore, knowledge cannot be gained in a place of timelessness. There needs to be time for this gaining of knowledge to happen. Without time, everything is static, and nothing happens.

If the act of gaining knowledge requires a non-timeless existence, God would still never need to gain knowledge since he'd be omniscient.

Just say the word, and I'll set it up.

I'll have to think about it. I haven't given this subject much thought so I wouldn't have much to put forth as an argument. On the surface, I don't see how existing in time requires the gain of knowledge though.

Also, I would be arguing that existing in time requires the gaining of knowledge for an omniscient being, not just any being.
Juan_Pablo
Posts: 2,052
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/14/2014 11:52:00 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/14/2014 9:07:46 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Yes or no... discuss.

Yes. God can gain knowledge. This indicates that before he gains the knowledge he was ignorant of a fact before he gains the knowledge . . . which means he can also make mistakes.

In my view God is a super-intelligent being that is capable of committing errors.

It's not exactly a nice or comforting thing to believe, but that's my position.
Juan_Pablo
Posts: 2,052
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/14/2014 11:54:24 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Correction:

Yes. God can gain knowledge. This also indicates that he was ignorant of the fact before he gained the knowledge and increased his intelligence. It also means that he can make mistakes until he gains the knowledge to go about something properly. This is what it means to learn.

In my view God is a super-intelligent being that is capable of committing errors.

It's not exactly a nice or comforting thing to believe, but that's my position.
Smithereens
Posts: 5,512
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/15/2014 4:52:20 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/14/2014 9:58:37 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 4/14/2014 9:53:20 PM, zmikecuber wrote:
At 4/14/2014 9:07:46 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Yes or no... discuss.

No. Not if he's omniscient, lol.

So you believe God isn't in time?

This is non-sequitur. If I, in time, knew everything, I would be unable to gain knowledge. This despite my tensed existence.
Music composition contest: http://www.debate.org...
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/15/2014 2:37:11 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/15/2014 4:52:20 AM, Smithereens wrote:
At 4/14/2014 9:58:37 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 4/14/2014 9:53:20 PM, zmikecuber wrote:
At 4/14/2014 9:07:46 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Yes or no... discuss.

No. Not if he's omniscient, lol.

So you believe God isn't in time?

This is non-sequitur. If I, in time, knew everything, I would be unable to gain knowledge. This despite my tensed existence.

False. You could still gain knowledge all while being omniscient, and in time.
tBoonePickens
Posts: 3,266
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/15/2014 4:29:57 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/14/2014 10:43:30 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
To gain knowledge, is to not have knowledge, and then, to have knowledge. So you would have to go from "not knowing x", to "knowing x". That's what gaining knowledge is. The problem is that going from "not knowing x" to "knowing x" is a change. Change can only happen if there is time for it to happen. Therefore, knowledge cannot be gained in a place of timelessness. There needs to be time for this gaining of knowledge to happen. Without time, everything is static, and nothing happens.
But I thought time was an illusion? This is not the change you're looking for, move along...

God cannot gain knowledge because there is no knowledge left for Him to gain: He is all-knowing.

God exists at all points in time, thus He is timeless.

Are you a theist Rational_Thinker9119? Just curious.
WOS
: At 10/3/2012 4:28:52 AM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
: Without nothing existing, you couldn't have something.
Intrepid
Posts: 372
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/15/2014 4:33:39 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/14/2014 10:43:30 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 4/14/2014 10:34:52 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 4/14/2014 10:01:38 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
If God cannot gain knowledge, then God cannot exist in time.

How so?

Why would the ability to gain knowledge only be possible in the confines of time? Assuming that angelic beings are timeless and their knowledge is not infinite, why wouldn't they be able to gain knowledge in heaven - a place of timelessness?

I was speaking about an omniscient being specifically. Either way, I will answer your question...

To gain knowledge, is to not have knowledge, and then, to have knowledge. So you would have to go from "not knowing x", to "knowing x". That's what gaining knowledge is. The problem is that going from "not knowing x" to "knowing x" is a change. Change can only happen if there is time for it to happen. Therefore, knowledge cannot be gained in a place of timelessness. There needs to be time for this gaining of knowledge to happen. Without time, everything is static, and nothing happens.

Why can't God know everything and exist in time?
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/15/2014 4:37:28 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/15/2014 4:29:57 PM, tBoonePickens wrote:
At 4/14/2014 10:43:30 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
To gain knowledge, is to not have knowledge, and then, to have knowledge. So you would have to go from "not knowing x", to "knowing x". That's what gaining knowledge is. The problem is that going from "not knowing x" to "knowing x" is a change. Change can only happen if there is time for it to happen. Therefore, knowledge cannot be gained in a place of timelessness. There needs to be time for this gaining of knowledge to happen. Without time, everything is static, and nothing happens.
But I thought time was an illusion? This is not the change you're looking for, move along...

I think time is an illusion. I am just saying that IF God exists in time, and is omniscient, then it is possible for him to gain knowledge.


God cannot gain knowledge because there is no knowledge left for Him to gain: He is all-knowing.

But if the set of "all there is to know" gains members as time passes, then as long as God knows it as soon as that set gains that member, then he can gain knowledge while always knowing all there is to know.


God exists at all points in time, thus He is timeless.

That's a contradiction. If he exists at all points in time, then he is not timeless.


Are you a theist Rational_Thinker9119? Just curious.
Fanath
Posts: 830
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/15/2014 4:45:02 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/15/2014 4:29:57 PM, tBoonePickens wrote:
At 4/14/2014 10:43:30 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
To gain knowledge, is to not have knowledge, and then, to have knowledge. So you would have to go from "not knowing x", to "knowing x". That's what gaining knowledge is. The problem is that going from "not knowing x" to "knowing x" is a change. Change can only happen if there is time for it to happen. Therefore, knowledge cannot be gained in a place of timelessness. There needs to be time for this gaining of knowledge to happen. Without time, everything is static, and nothing happens.
But I thought time was an illusion? This is not the change you're looking for, move along...

God cannot gain knowledge because there is no knowledge left for Him to gain: He is all-knowing.

God exists at all points in time, thus He is timeless.

Are you a theist Rational_Thinker9119? Just curious.

Last time I checked he was an agnostic I think.
Dude... Stop...
tBoonePickens
Posts: 3,266
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/16/2014 10:01:42 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/15/2014 4:45:02 PM, Fanath wrote:
At 4/15/2014 4:29:57 PM, tBoonePickens wrote:
Are you a theist Rational_Thinker9119? Just curious.

Last time I checked he was an agnostic I think.
Well, that actually answers a different question because one can be an agnostic-atheist or an agnostic-theist as I am.
WOS
: At 10/3/2012 4:28:52 AM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
: Without nothing existing, you couldn't have something.
tBoonePickens
Posts: 3,266
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/16/2014 10:05:10 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/15/2014 4:37:28 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 4/15/2014 4:29:57 PM, tBoonePickens wrote:
At 4/14/2014 10:43:30 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
To gain knowledge, is to not have knowledge, and then, to have knowledge. So you would have to go from "not knowing x", to "knowing x". That's what gaining knowledge is. The problem is that going from "not knowing x" to "knowing x" is a change. Change can only happen if there is time for it to happen. Therefore, knowledge cannot be gained in a place of timelessness. There needs to be time for this gaining of knowledge to happen. Without time, everything is static, and nothing happens.
But I thought time was an illusion? This is not the change you're looking for, move along...
I think time is an illusion. I am just saying that IF God exists in time, and is omniscient, then it is possible for him to gain knowledge.
You can see how your statement is problematic, right? Let me demonstrate, you said:

"I am just saying that IF God exists in an illusion, and is omniscient, then it is possible for him to gain knowledge."

How does One exist in an illusion?

God cannot gain knowledge because there is no knowledge left for Him to gain: He is all-knowing.
But if the set of "all there is to know" gains members as time passes, then as long as God knows it as soon as that set gains that member, then he can gain knowledge while always knowing all there is to know.
The set of "all there is to know" is a complete set; ergo, there cannot be any NEW members that aren't ALREADY included.

Regardless, your statement doesn't even make sense if time is an illusion because it boils down to:

"But if the set of 'all there is to know' gains members as illusion passes, then as long as God knows it as soon as that set gains that member, then He can gain knowledge while always knowing all there is to know."

God exists at all points in time, thus He is timeless.
That's a contradiction. If he exists at all points in time, then he is not timeless.
Not according to you, because time is an illusion and thus this contradiction is also an illusion!

Are you a theist Rational_Thinker9119? Just curious.
You don't want to answer?

I am an agnostic-theist most of the time...
WOS
: At 10/3/2012 4:28:52 AM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
: Without nothing existing, you couldn't have something.
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/16/2014 10:25:57 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/16/2014 10:05:10 AM, tBoonePickens wrote:
At 4/15/2014 4:37:28 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 4/15/2014 4:29:57 PM, tBoonePickens wrote:
At 4/14/2014 10:43:30 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
To gain knowledge, is to not have knowledge, and then, to have knowledge. So you would have to go from "not knowing x", to "knowing x". That's what gaining knowledge is. The problem is that going from "not knowing x" to "knowing x" is a change. Change can only happen if there is time for it to happen. Therefore, knowledge cannot be gained in a place of timelessness. There needs to be time for this gaining of knowledge to happen. Without time, everything is static, and nothing happens.
But I thought time was an illusion? This is not the change you're looking for, move along...
I think time is an illusion. I am just saying that IF God exists in time, and is omniscient, then it is possible for him to gain knowledge.
You can see how your statement is problematic, right? Let me demonstrate, you said:

"I am just saying that IF God exists in an illusion, and is omniscient, then it is possible for him to gain knowledge."

How does One exist in an illusion?

Let me re-phrase: "If time exists and isn't an illusion, and God exists in it, and is omniscient, then it is possible for him to gain knowledge"


God cannot gain knowledge because there is no knowledge left for Him to gain: He is all-knowing.
But if the set of "all there is to know" gains members as time passes, then as long as God knows it as soon as that set gains that member, then he can gain knowledge while always knowing all there is to know.
The set of "all there is to know" is a complete set; ergo, there cannot be any NEW members that aren't ALREADY included.

It is not a complete set, it is always changing. It is NEVER complete if time exists.


Regardless, your statement doesn't even make sense if time is an illusion because it boils down to:

"But if the set of 'all there is to know' gains members as illusion passes, then as long as God knows it as soon as that set gains that member, then He can gain knowledge while always knowing all there is to know."

But this is only under the assumption that time isn't an illusion though. I believe it is an illusion, but IF it isn't, then what I am saying follows.


God exists at all points in time, thus He is timeless.
That's a contradiction. If he exists at all points in time, then he is not timeless.
Not according to you, because time is an illusion and thus this contradiction is also an illusion!

That is retarded. Learn what the word IF means. What I am saying holds IF time exists, but I don't believe it does.


Are you a theist Rational_Thinker9119? Just curious.
You don't want to answer?

I am an agnostic-theist most of the time...
tBoonePickens
Posts: 3,266
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/16/2014 11:00:00 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/16/2014 10:25:57 AM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 4/16/2014 10:05:10 AM, tBoonePickens wrote:
How does One exist in an illusion?
Let me re-phrase: "If time exists and isn't an illusion, and God exists in it, and is omniscient, then it is possible for him to gain knowledge"
No.

God cannot gain knowledge because there is no knowledge left for Him to gain: He is all-knowing.
But if the set of "all there is to know" gains members as time passes, then as long as God knows it as soon as that set gains that member, then he can gain knowledge while always knowing all there is to know.
The set of "all there is to know" is a complete set; ergo, there cannot be any NEW members that aren't ALREADY included.
It is not a complete set, it is always changing.
It is a complete set by DEFINITION. The assumption that it is always changing is incorrect.

It is NEVER complete if time exists.
Time plays no part in the definition of omniscience, that I know of; however, if you have another definition, please supply it.

Regardless, your statement doesn't even make sense if time is an illusion because it boils down to:

"But if the set of 'all there is to know' gains members as illusion passes, then as long as God knows it as soon as that set gains that member, then He can gain knowledge while always knowing all there is to know."
But this is only under the assumption that time isn't an illusion though. I believe it is an illusion, but IF it isn't, then what I am saying follows.
Granted.

God exists at all points in time, thus He is timeless.
That's a contradiction. If he exists at all points in time, then he is not timeless.
Not according to you, because time is an illusion and thus this contradiction is also an illusion!
That is retarded. Learn what the word IF means. What I am saying holds IF time exists, but I don't believe it does.
Yes. It was quite retarded! OK so let me rephrase that: God exists at all points, thus He is timeless.
WOS
: At 10/3/2012 4:28:52 AM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
: Without nothing existing, you couldn't have something.
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/16/2014 11:04:10 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/16/2014 11:00:00 AM, tBoonePickens wrote:
At 4/16/2014 10:25:57 AM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 4/16/2014 10:05:10 AM, tBoonePickens wrote:
How does One exist in an illusion?
Let me re-phrase: "If time exists and isn't an illusion, and God exists in it, and is omniscient, then it is possible for him to gain knowledge"
No.

Yes.


God cannot gain knowledge because there is no knowledge left for Him to gain: He is all-knowing.
But if the set of "all there is to know" gains members as time passes, then as long as God knows it as soon as that set gains that member, then he can gain knowledge while always knowing all there is to know.
The set of "all there is to know" is a complete set; ergo, there cannot be any NEW members that aren't ALREADY included.
It is not a complete set, it is always changing.
It is a complete set by DEFINITION.

No its not... It is just a set, that is always changing, and is NEVER complete.

The assumption that it is always changing is incorrect.

If we assume time exists, for the sake of argument, then it is definitely correct.


It is NEVER complete if time exists.
Time plays no part in the definition of omniscience, that I know of; however, if you have another definition, please supply it.

I never said time did play a part in the definition.


Regardless, your statement doesn't even make sense if time is an illusion because it boils down to:

"But if the set of 'all there is to know' gains members as illusion passes, then as long as God knows it as soon as that set gains that member, then He can gain knowledge while always knowing all there is to know."
But this is only under the assumption that time isn't an illusion though. I believe it is an illusion, but IF it isn't, then what I am saying follows.
Granted.

God exists at all points in time, thus He is timeless.
That's a contradiction. If he exists at all points in time, then he is not timeless.
Not according to you, because time is an illusion and thus this contradiction is also an illusion!
That is retarded. Learn what the word IF means. What I am saying holds IF time exists, but I don't believe it does.
Yes. It was quite retarded! OK so let me rephrase that: God exists at all points, thus He is timeless.

That's a contradiction. If God exists in all points of time, then it is IN TIME. If he is in time he cannot be timeless LMAO
tBoonePickens
Posts: 3,266
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/16/2014 2:09:14 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/16/2014 11:04:10 AM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 4/16/2014 11:00:00 AM, tBoonePickens wrote:
At 4/16/2014 10:25:57 AM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 4/16/2014 10:05:10 AM, tBoonePickens wrote:
How does One exist in an illusion?
Let me re-phrase: "If time exists and isn't an illusion, and God exists in it, and is omniscient, then it is possible for him to gain knowledge"
No.
Yes.
No, by definition of omniscient.

God cannot gain knowledge because there is no knowledge left for Him to gain: He is all-knowing.
But if the set of "all there is to know" gains members as time passes, then as long as God knows it as soon as that set gains that member, then he can gain knowledge while always knowing all there is to know.
The set of "all there is to know" is a complete set; ergo, there cannot be any NEW members that aren't ALREADY included.
It is not a complete set, it is always changing.
It is a complete set by DEFINITION.
No its not... It is just a set, that is always changing, and is NEVER complete.
Then we do not agree upon the definition. When I say ALL I mean that there is nothing left out so there cannot be anything to add because it is already included.

The assumption that it is always changing is incorrect.
If we assume time exists, for the sake of argument, then it is definitely correct.
No. There is nothing in the definition of "all knowing" that necessitates "always changing." The only thing that necessitates "always changing" is time.

It is NEVER complete if time exists.
Time plays no part in the definition of omniscience, that I know of; however, if you have another definition, please supply it.
I never said time did play a part in the definition.
You just did above.

Yes. It was quite retarded! OK so let me rephrase that: God exists at all points, thus He is timeless.
That's a contradiction. If God exists in all points of time, then it is IN TIME. If he is in time he cannot be timeless LMAO
Touche. So then to that I say simply, God is timeless.
WOS
: At 10/3/2012 4:28:52 AM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
: Without nothing existing, you couldn't have something.
Smithereens
Posts: 5,512
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/17/2014 12:38:18 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/15/2014 2:37:11 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 4/15/2014 4:52:20 AM, Smithereens wrote:
At 4/14/2014 9:58:37 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 4/14/2014 9:53:20 PM, zmikecuber wrote:
At 4/14/2014 9:07:46 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Yes or no... discuss.

No. Not if he's omniscient, lol.

So you believe God isn't in time?

This is non-sequitur. If I, in time, knew everything, I would be unable to gain knowledge. This despite my tensed existence.

False. You could still gain knowledge all while being omniscient, and in time.
Please explain.
Music composition contest: http://www.debate.org...
Smithereens
Posts: 5,512
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/17/2014 1:03:22 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
But if the set of "all there is to know" gains members as time passes, then as long as God knows it as soon as that set gains that member, then he can gain knowledge while always knowing all there is to know.

I actually perceived this was how you were taking it, and I think its a very interesting view. The problem is that this category can only exist within time itself, and cannot exist without time. If God exists unconstrained by time, which he necessarily must, then this category is false in relation to God.
Music composition contest: http://www.debate.org...
abyteofbrain
Posts: 54
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/17/2014 5:48:53 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
God knows everything, and therefore cannot learn. Anything he needs to know he would simply figure it out... but he wouldn't need to because he knows everything.
SovereignDream
Posts: 1,119
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/17/2014 6:35:41 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/14/2014 9:07:46 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Yes or no... discuss.

Depends both on the theory of time that you are committed to and the sort of theism you are committed to, e.g. classical theism or so-called theistic personalism.