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Can Something Come From Nothing?

Sidewalker
Posts: 3,713
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4/19/2014 7:29:12 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/19/2014 5:15:08 AM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Discuss...

There are generally two opposing positions that one could take on this:

1) That it is absurd to think that if something is uncaused, then it comes from nothing.
2) Nothing can"t have restrictions so there is no reason to think something couldn't pop up out of nothing.

Then again, I suppose a person could just hold both contradictory positions at the same time, but of course, that wouldn"t be logical.

"Since nothing has no restrictions, then there is no reason to think something couldn't pop up out of nothing."
http://www.debate.org...

"The idea is that if something is uncaused, then it comes from nothing, which is absurd."
http://www.debate.org...
"It is one of the commonest of mistakes to consider that the limit of our power of perception is also the limit of all there is to perceive." " C. W. Leadbeater
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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4/19/2014 10:49:27 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/19/2014 7:29:12 AM, Sidewalker wrote:
At 4/19/2014 5:15:08 AM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Discuss...

There are generally two opposing positions that one could take on this:

1) That it is absurd to think that if something is uncaused, then it comes from nothing.
2) Nothing can"t have restrictions so there is no reason to think something couldn't pop up out of nothing.

Then again, I suppose a person could just hold both contradictory positions at the same time, but of course, that wouldn"t be logical.

"Since nothing has no restrictions, then there is no reason to think something couldn't pop up out of nothing."
http://www.debate.org...

"The idea is that if something is uncaused, then it comes from nothing, which is absurd."
http://www.debate.org...

Yes, it would be illogical to hold to both positions at the same time.
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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4/19/2014 10:51:15 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
To me? There is no good answer to this question. One on hand, if there was nothing, there would be no possibilities. Ergo, there wouldn't be the possibility for anything. However, if there was nothing, there would be no restrictions. Ergo, the restriction of "something cannot happen unless it is possible" wouldn't exist.
Rational_Thinker9119
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4/19/2014 10:53:41 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/19/2014 7:29:12 AM, Sidewalker wrote:
At 4/19/2014 5:15:08 AM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Discuss...

There are generally two opposing positions that one could take on this:

1) That it is absurd to think that if something is uncaused, then it comes from nothing.
2) Nothing can"t have restrictions so there is no reason to think something couldn't pop up out of nothing.

Then again, I suppose a person could just hold both contradictory positions at the same time, but of course, that wouldn"t be logical.

"Since nothing has no restrictions, then there is no reason to think something couldn't pop up out of nothing."
http://www.debate.org...

"The idea is that if something is uncaused, then it comes from nothing, which is absurd."
http://www.debate.org...

Remember when someone says "the idea is X", that doesn't mean they agree with that idea, it is just an explanation of the idea.
AlbinoBunny
Posts: 3,781
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4/19/2014 10:57:07 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/19/2014 5:15:08 AM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Discuss...

I'm sure I've asked this before and I'll ask this again. Please give a sufficient definition or "something" and "nothing"?
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dylancatlow
Posts: 12,242
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4/19/2014 11:31:23 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Nothingness is a meta-paradox because it is at once something (because no constraint) and not something (because nothing), so it is both a contradiction (because contradictory) and not a contradiction (because not anything). Reality thus amounts to the inherent asymmetry of nothingness. In order to exist, reality must provide itself with everything it needs to exist, which means reality is a self-contained system. Since there is nothing to "tell" reality to exist i.e. emerge from nothingness, reality must be self-actualizing.
Juan_Pablo
Posts: 2,052
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4/19/2014 11:50:29 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/19/2014 5:15:08 AM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Discuss...

It's my position that this is impossible. Something cannot come from nothing.

But I also believe that the pure vacuum state is not in fact nothing. It is not idealized nothing as we philosophically conceive it.

The pure vacuum state is a kind of chaotic, undefined materialization of the universe.

The universe did in fact come from something that we have yet to understand. It did not come from idealized, pure nothing!
Juan_Pablo
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4/19/2014 11:52:16 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Vacuum is not the kind of "pure nothing" that some philosophers tend to believe preceded the existence of the universe.
Juan_Pablo
Posts: 2,052
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4/19/2014 11:53:42 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Another possibility is that "pure nothing" is very quirky, chaotic state, capable of producing "something".

I guess this is a rhetorical issue that will bother us for as long as intelligent life inhabits the universe.
dylancatlow
Posts: 12,242
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4/19/2014 12:37:26 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
"Emerge from nothingness" is not quite right. Essentially, reality "emerges" from itself by virtue of nothingness, where emerge means a totally reflexive action in which reality satisfies the requirement that it self-actualize by doing so.
Installgentoo
Posts: 1,420
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4/19/2014 1:03:47 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/19/2014 5:15:08 AM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Discuss...

Obviously it cannot. Nothing is completely empty, with no relations between different parts of it, so it doesn't even have the potential to become something more than it is. The only way nothing could become something is if something were to be introduced "into" it from an outside source.
dylancatlow
Posts: 12,242
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4/19/2014 1:05:55 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/19/2014 1:03:47 PM, Installgentoo wrote:
At 4/19/2014 5:15:08 AM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Discuss...

Obviously it cannot. Nothing is completely empty, with no relations between different parts of it, so it doesn't even have the potential to become something more than it is. The only way nothing could become something is if something were to be introduced "into" it from an outside source.

If something cannot come from nothing, then nothingness has constraints, in which case it is something.
Iredia
Posts: 1,608
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4/19/2014 1:32:00 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
There is no 'nothing' as such, for if there was truly 'nothing' it could not exist nor could it be thought of, if 'nothing' can be thought of it is something. Put simply, there was always something. It is from this something from which all things in the material world springs. This something is God. QED.
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dylancatlow
Posts: 12,242
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4/19/2014 1:39:37 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/19/2014 1:32:00 PM, Iredia wrote:
There is no 'nothing' as such, for if there was truly 'nothing' it could not exist nor could it be thought of, if 'nothing' can be thought of it is something. Put simply, there was always something. It is from this something from which all things in the material world springs. This something is God. QED.

You argument is thus: existence exists because nothingness cannot exist. This implies that something must exist, which implies that the existence of reality is self-explanatory i.e. explainable via circular reasoning. This can only be true if reality is itself self-explanatory, and thus self-caused, and thus self-actualizing. Is this what you're saying?
Installgentoo
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4/19/2014 1:58:30 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/19/2014 1:05:55 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 4/19/2014 1:03:47 PM, Installgentoo wrote:
At 4/19/2014 5:15:08 AM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Discuss...

Obviously it cannot. Nothing is completely empty, with no relations between different parts of it, so it doesn't even have the potential to become something more than it is. The only way nothing could become something is if something were to be introduced "into" it from an outside source.

If something cannot come from nothing, then nothingness has constraints, in which case it is something.

That would be a metaphysical constraint, not a physical one, and as such it is ultimately irrelevant as a constraint on the physical properties of nothing to produce something.
dylancatlow
Posts: 12,242
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4/19/2014 2:01:14 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/19/2014 1:58:30 PM, Installgentoo wrote:
At 4/19/2014 1:05:55 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 4/19/2014 1:03:47 PM, Installgentoo wrote:
At 4/19/2014 5:15:08 AM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Discuss...

Obviously it cannot. Nothing is completely empty, with no relations between different parts of it, so it doesn't even have the potential to become something more than it is. The only way nothing could become something is if something were to be introduced "into" it from an outside source.

If something cannot come from nothing, then nothingness has constraints, in which case it is something.

That would be a metaphysical constraint, not a physical one, and as such it is ultimately irrelevant as a constraint on the physical properties of nothing to produce something.

That made absolutely no sense.
Installgentoo
Posts: 1,420
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4/19/2014 2:16:08 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/19/2014 2:01:14 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 4/19/2014 1:58:30 PM, Installgentoo wrote:
At 4/19/2014 1:05:55 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 4/19/2014 1:03:47 PM, Installgentoo wrote:
At 4/19/2014 5:15:08 AM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Discuss...

Obviously it cannot. Nothing is completely empty, with no relations between different parts of it, so it doesn't even have the potential to become something more than it is. The only way nothing could become something is if something were to be introduced "into" it from an outside source.

If something cannot come from nothing, then nothingness has constraints, in which case it is something.

That would be a metaphysical constraint, not a physical one, and as such it is ultimately irrelevant as a constraint on the physical properties of nothing to produce something.

That made absolutely no sense.

It makes sense if you read my comments carefully.
dylancatlow
Posts: 12,242
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4/19/2014 2:20:31 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/19/2014 2:16:08 PM, Installgentoo wrote:
At 4/19/2014 2:01:14 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 4/19/2014 1:58:30 PM, Installgentoo wrote:
At 4/19/2014 1:05:55 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 4/19/2014 1:03:47 PM, Installgentoo wrote:
At 4/19/2014 5:15:08 AM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Discuss...

Obviously it cannot. Nothing is completely empty, with no relations between different parts of it, so it doesn't even have the potential to become something more than it is. The only way nothing could become something is if something were to be introduced "into" it from an outside source.

If something cannot come from nothing, then nothingness has constraints, in which case it is something.

That would be a metaphysical constraint, not a physical one, and as such it is ultimately irrelevant as a constraint on the physical properties of nothing to produce something.

That made absolutely no sense.

It makes sense if you read my comments carefully.

...how can nothingness have meta-constraints.
dylancatlow
Posts: 12,242
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4/19/2014 2:23:23 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/19/2014 1:03:47 PM, Installgentoo wrote:
At 4/19/2014 5:15:08 AM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Discuss...

Obviously it cannot. Nothing is completely empty, with no relations between different parts of it, so it doesn't even have the potential to become something more than it is. The only way nothing could become something is if something were to be introduced "into" it from an outside source.

That implies that nothingness is empty space, which is absurd.
Iredia
Posts: 1,608
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4/19/2014 4:12:51 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/19/2014 1:39:37 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 4/19/2014 1:32:00 PM, Iredia wrote:
There is no 'nothing' as such, for if there was truly 'nothing' it could not exist nor could it be thought of, if 'nothing' can be thought of it is something. Put simply, there was always something. It is from this something from which all things in the material world springs. This something is God. QED.

You argument is thus: existence exists because nothingness cannot exist. This implies that something must exist, which implies that the existence of reality is self-explanatory i.e. explainable via circular reasoning. This can only be true if reality is itself self-explanatory, and thus self-caused, and thus self-actualizing. Is this what you're saying?

Yes. That's another way of expressing what I meant. I wonder if we may disagree on finer points related to it.
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Iredia
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4/19/2014 4:40:26 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/19/2014 1:58:30 PM, Installgentoo wrote:
At 4/19/2014 1:05:55 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 4/19/2014 1:03:47 PM, Installgentoo wrote:


If something cannot come from nothing, then nothingness has constraints, in which case it is something.

That would be a metaphysical constraint, not a physical one, and as such it is ultimately irrelevant as a constraint on the physical properties of nothing to produce something.

I think both you and dylan are correct in a sense. It's a matter of perspective and definitions. If by 'nothingness' one means a complete lack of existence, then it would follow that the constraint dylan points out would be a lack of principle which makes existence possible (or reality won't be self-actualizing). This would make Installgentoo right. If by nothingness one means space (as I sometimes use it), then it dylan would be right because as I have also implied space (or nothingness) exists and IS NOT a complete lack of existence. This won't eradicate the possibility a necessary cause that would allow the material world to be actualized from it and in that case you (Installgentoo) would be wrong.
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GodChoosesLife
Posts: 3,461
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4/19/2014 4:45:18 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
It's not possible.
Better than deserved, as ALWAYS.
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SONOFGOD2013
Posts: 149
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4/19/2014 4:53:46 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/19/2014 4:52:53 PM, SONOFGOD2013 wrote:
Everything comes from god.

Besides evil which corruption and the devil did
gpy222
Posts: 7
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4/19/2014 5:13:29 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
"Can something come from nothing?"
That question makes it sound almost like "something" is on a higher level than "nothing." Is this true?
Adaptable
Posts: 35
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4/19/2014 5:19:16 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/19/2014 10:51:15 AM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
To me? There is no good answer to this question. One on hand, if there was nothing, there would be no possibilities. Ergo, there wouldn't be the possibility for anything. However, if there was nothing, there would be no restrictions. Ergo, the restriction of "something cannot happen unless it is possible" wouldn't exist.

You and I completely perceive this idea the same way. You are quite the rational thinker :)
Iredia
Posts: 1,608
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4/19/2014 7:06:01 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/19/2014 4:45:18 PM, GodChoosesLife wrote:
It's not possible.

Good to see you're back.
Porn babes be distracting me. Dudes be stealing me stuff. I'm all about the cash from now. I'm not playing Jesus anymore.