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B theory of time and indeterminism

philochristos
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4/20/2014 10:26:38 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
If the B theory of time is true, is it possible for any indeterministic model of quantum physics to be true? Or, is it possible for there to be libertarian freedom on a B theory of time. If so, how?
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AlbinoBunny
Posts: 3,781
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4/20/2014 10:55:33 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/20/2014 10:26:38 AM, philochristos wrote:
If the B theory of time is true, is it possible for any indeterministic model of quantum physics to be true? Or, is it possible for there to be libertarian freedom on a B theory of time. If so, how?

It depends what you need for an indeterministic model? Could the effects of quantum physics be like the start of the different branches of a tree? The branches are alternate spacetime blocks?

PS I don't know much about the B theory of time, indeterministic models or quantum physics.
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philochristos
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4/20/2014 11:03:00 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/20/2014 10:55:33 AM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
At 4/20/2014 10:26:38 AM, philochristos wrote:
If the B theory of time is true, is it possible for any indeterministic model of quantum physics to be true? Or, is it possible for there to be libertarian freedom on a B theory of time. If so, how?

It depends what you need for an indeterministic model? Could the effects of quantum physics be like the start of the different branches of a tree? The branches are alternate spacetime blocks?

PS I don't know much about the B theory of time, indeterministic models or quantum physics.

It sounds like you're describing the many worlds hypothesis, which is a deterministic model. It only APPEARS indeterministic since we only perceive one path.
"Not to know of what things one should demand demonstration, and of what one should not, argues want of education." ~Aristotle

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." ~Aristotle
AlbinoBunny
Posts: 3,781
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4/20/2014 11:06:16 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/20/2014 11:03:00 AM, philochristos wrote:
At 4/20/2014 10:55:33 AM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
At 4/20/2014 10:26:38 AM, philochristos wrote:
If the B theory of time is true, is it possible for any indeterministic model of quantum physics to be true? Or, is it possible for there to be libertarian freedom on a B theory of time. If so, how?

It depends what you need for an indeterministic model? Could the effects of quantum physics be like the start of the different branches of a tree? The branches are alternate spacetime blocks?

PS I don't know much about the B theory of time, indeterministic models or quantum physics.

It sounds like you're describing the many worlds hypothesis, which is a deterministic model. It only APPEARS indeterministic since we only perceive one path.

Yeah, it does seem deterministic. Does the B theory of time state that everything exists already? Maybe the block is moving? Not through time, but throughout time. The strings of matter through time wobble via quantum physics? That may be impossible or not make sense. lol
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AlbinoBunny
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4/20/2014 11:07:36 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/20/2014 11:06:16 AM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
At 4/20/2014 11:03:00 AM, philochristos wrote:
At 4/20/2014 10:55:33 AM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
At 4/20/2014 10:26:38 AM, philochristos wrote:
If the B theory of time is true, is it possible for any indeterministic model of quantum physics to be true? Or, is it possible for there to be libertarian freedom on a B theory of time. If so, how?

It depends what you need for an indeterministic model? Could the effects of quantum physics be like the start of the different branches of a tree? The branches are alternate spacetime blocks?

PS I don't know much about the B theory of time, indeterministic models or quantum physics.

It sounds like you're describing the many worlds hypothesis, which is a deterministic model. It only APPEARS indeterministic since we only perceive one path.

Yeah, it does seem deterministic. Does the B theory of time state that everything exists already? Maybe the block is moving? Not through time, but throughout time. The strings of matter through time wobble via quantum physics? That may be impossible or not make sense. lol

The implications would be that our "past" is changing, though.
bladerunner060 | bsh1 , 2014! Presidency campaign!

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AlbinoBunny
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4/20/2014 11:09:15 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/20/2014 11:07:36 AM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
At 4/20/2014 11:06:16 AM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
At 4/20/2014 11:03:00 AM, philochristos wrote:
At 4/20/2014 10:55:33 AM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
At 4/20/2014 10:26:38 AM, philochristos wrote:
If the B theory of time is true, is it possible for any indeterministic model of quantum physics to be true? Or, is it possible for there to be libertarian freedom on a B theory of time. If so, how?

It depends what you need for an indeterministic model? Could the effects of quantum physics be like the start of the different branches of a tree? The branches are alternate spacetime blocks?

PS I don't know much about the B theory of time, indeterministic models or quantum physics.

It sounds like you're describing the many worlds hypothesis, which is a deterministic model. It only APPEARS indeterministic since we only perceive one path.

Yeah, it does seem deterministic. Does the B theory of time state that everything exists already? Maybe the block is moving? Not through time, but throughout time. The strings of matter through time wobble via quantum physics? That may be impossible or not make sense. lol

The implications would be that our "past" is changing, though.

Or at least it has changed at one point. If a spacetime block is changing, would it be experiencing metatime? Also, how many times can I reply to myself.
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dylancatlow
Posts: 12,245
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4/20/2014 11:20:38 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/20/2014 11:03:00 AM, philochristos wrote:
At 4/20/2014 10:55:33 AM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
At 4/20/2014 10:26:38 AM, philochristos wrote:
If the B theory of time is true, is it possible for any indeterministic model of quantum physics to be true? Or, is it possible for there to be libertarian freedom on a B theory of time. If so, how?

It depends what you need for an indeterministic model? Could the effects of quantum physics be like the start of the different branches of a tree? The branches are alternate spacetime blocks?

PS I don't know much about the B theory of time, indeterministic models or quantum physics.

It sounds like you're describing the many worlds hypothesis, which is a deterministic model. It only APPEARS indeterministic since we only perceive one path.

It's only superficially deterministic since it has no way to account for the existence of the multiverse itself to which the cause is attributed.
n7
Posts: 1,360
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4/20/2014 1:50:21 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Maybe the indeterminist quantum events are fixed. It is determined that x will be an indertemined event. Particle-antiparticle annihilation are uncaused, but still determined to happen.

Not sure if that makes sense.
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Uphold Marxist-Leninist-Maoist-Sargonist-n7ism.
Rational_Thinker9119
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4/20/2014 3:01:00 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/20/2014 10:26:38 AM, philochristos wrote:
If the B theory of time is true, is it possible for any indeterministic model of quantum physics to be true? Or, is it possible for there to be libertarian freedom on a B theory of time. If so, how?

I have wondered this myself and the answer is very simple after simple reflection; yes. You can have an inderministic interpretation of QM if B-Theory is true. The reason why is that indeterministic interpretations of QM only rule out causal determinism. If something has to be a certain way because it is part of a fixed block (like on B-Theory), then that has nothing to do with causation specifically. Basically, that vacuum fluctuation for example would exist at that spot on the block no matter what, it just wouldn't have a determining cause like a bullet coming out due to trigger pulling.

So, because B-Theory doesn't entail causal determinism, then indeterministic interpretations of QM are still compatible with it.

The poster n7 is kind of on the right path...
dylancatlow
Posts: 12,245
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4/20/2014 3:02:01 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/20/2014 1:50:21 PM, n7 wrote:
Maybe the indeterminist quantum events are fixed. It is determined that x will be an indertemined event. Particle-antiparticle annihilation are uncaused, but still determined to happen.

Not sure if that makes sense.

That's a contradiction in terms. Indeterminism means that an event happens for no reason whatsoever. Randomness, by its very nature, "just happens". In order to invoke it i.e. bring it about non-randomly, you would need to somehow cause a randomizing process, which would mean the process in question would be determined (i.e. not actually random...if it were, the question would simply become how did you cause the process itself) and thus the event wouldn't be random. On the other hand, if there is no process, then there's nothing to cause...except the event. Ultimately, to bring about randomness would require randomness itself.
Rational_Thinker9119
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4/20/2014 3:10:31 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Basically, if causal determinism is true, then if you knew every fact about right "now", you would predict the future off of that alone. However, quantum indeterminism throws a monkey wrench into that line of thinking. It says that you could know everything that is going on right "now", and we still couldn't predict the future perfectly accurately. However, none of that means the future isn't fixed, it just means that the future cannot be predicted based on full knowledge of the past like causal determinism would have you believe.
dylancatlow
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4/20/2014 3:43:11 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Here's a simpler explanation:

Since randomness is by definition the lack of cause, there is nothing to cause. That would be like "causing" nothing, which is absurd since a cause is the explanation for the existence of something.
Sargon
Posts: 524
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4/20/2014 8:22:20 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/20/2014 10:26:38 AM, philochristos wrote:
If the B theory of time is true, is it possible for any indeterministic model of quantum physics to be true?

I've actually been thinking about the relationship between Minkowski space-time and interpretations of quantum mechanics for quite some time. I'm glad somebody else is exploring the same territory.
Sargon
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4/20/2014 8:24:22 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/20/2014 8:22:20 PM, Sargon wrote:
At 4/20/2014 10:26:38 AM, philochristos wrote:
If the B theory of time is true, is it possible for any indeterministic model of quantum physics to be true?

I've actually been thinking about the relationship between Minkowski space-time and interpretations of quantum mechanics for quite some time. I'm glad somebody else is exploring the same territory.

And I'd be willing to debate n7 or RT on the issue, considering I disagree with their statements.
Rational_Thinker9119
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4/20/2014 8:52:31 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/20/2014 8:24:22 PM, Sargon wrote:
At 4/20/2014 8:22:20 PM, Sargon wrote:
At 4/20/2014 10:26:38 AM, philochristos wrote:
If the B theory of time is true, is it possible for any indeterministic model of quantum physics to be true?

I've actually been thinking about the relationship between Minkowski space-time and interpretations of quantum mechanics for quite some time. I'm glad somebody else is exploring the same territory.

And I'd be willing to debate n7 or RT on the issue, considering I disagree with their statements.

Set up the debate.
dylancatlow
Posts: 12,245
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4/20/2014 10:35:41 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Can someone explain on what basis they think indeterminism is logically possible? Why are people so quick to rule out temporally extensive higher-order causation when explaining quantum mechanics, and so quick to endorse magic? There can be no cause for randomness and thus no explanation for it. If there can be no explanation for it, then for what reason would one believe it exists to begin with? A rational belief means: believing X exists for reasons that correspond to the reasons one thinks X exists. If one says something exists "just because", they are saying they believe it exists "just because". Those who believe that empirical observation has decided the issue have got another thing coming.