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Too much to forgive?

Ore_Ele
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4/27/2014 1:59:31 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
This is more of personal philosophy, and "forgive" might not be the right word. May "overlook" or something, but anyway, lets dive on in.

I think it is fair to say that for all of us, there are people out there that function as role models, be they JFK, Reagan, Gandhi, that Llama guy for Delhi. But we all know that none of them are "perfect" role models (at least, I hope we all know that). They may be good 99% of the time and muck it up that other 1%.

My question is, is there anything that can be so atrocious that no amounts of good deeds can overcome it? Is there any action or belief, that someone could have that is so bad, that it leaves such a tarnish on their reputation that we cannot view them as a good person? What I'm curious about is not where the far end of the extreme is, but where the fine line is? Can someone that is a racist or sexist at heart do enough good in the world in other aspects for us to say "yeah, he is one heck of a good guy."
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AlbinoBunny
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4/27/2014 4:01:38 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
I think personally I do this too easily. If they seem to be publicly supporting a health lifestyle with no evidence behind it, or charging a lot of money for their time, if they seem to be deceiving in any way, trying to brag while trying to claim they're humble in exactly the same moment etc. it's hard to come up with these or remember them because they're so minor. I try to avoid looking up to people too much because I see how others get rose-coloured glasses for their idols. I've never really looked up to rockstars or filmstars, which I think quite a few people I know may have.

Things that are definitely bad are major crimes; murder, rape etc. Minor crimes may have an impact such as; theft and vandalism. Seeming to be some sort of cult leader is also a major one.

I think I still look up to people who have made minor transgressions, but I realise that I can't idolise them, and I probably can't idolise anyone, because everyone's human. I'm human too, so it might be possible for me to idolise someone, but they way I am seems to eliminate that possibility.
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Smithereens
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4/27/2014 4:47:32 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
I suppose this will have numerous types of context (be it cultural, religious whatnot) that shape the view of those considering it. I don't believe there is an objectively correct answer to it.
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Ore_Ele
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4/27/2014 12:01:06 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/27/2014 4:01:38 AM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
I think personally I do this too easily. If they seem to be publicly supporting a health lifestyle with no evidence behind it, or charging a lot of money for their time, if they seem to be deceiving in any way, trying to brag while trying to claim they're humble in exactly the same moment etc. it's hard to come up with these or remember them because they're so minor. I try to avoid looking up to people too much because I see how others get rose-coloured glasses for their idols. I've never really looked up to rockstars or filmstars, which I think quite a few people I know may have.

Things that are definitely bad are major crimes; murder, rape etc. Minor crimes may have an impact such as; theft and vandalism. Seeming to be some sort of cult leader is also a major one.

I think I still look up to people who have made minor transgressions, but I realise that I can't idolise them, and I probably can't idolise anyone, because everyone's human. I'm human too, so it might be possible for me to idolise someone, but they way I am seems to eliminate that possibility.

An example might be that Gandhi was a racist.
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ESocialBookworm
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4/27/2014 12:18:48 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/27/2014 12:01:06 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 4/27/2014 4:01:38 AM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
I think personally I do this too easily. If they seem to be publicly supporting a health lifestyle with no evidence behind it, or charging a lot of money for their time, if they seem to be deceiving in any way, trying to brag while trying to claim they're humble in exactly the same moment etc. it's hard to come up with these or remember them because they're so minor. I try to avoid looking up to people too much because I see how others get rose-coloured glasses for their idols. I've never really looked up to rockstars or filmstars, which I think quite a few people I know may have.

Things that are definitely bad are major crimes; murder, rape etc. Minor crimes may have an impact such as; theft and vandalism. Seeming to be some sort of cult leader is also a major one.

I think I still look up to people who have made minor transgressions, but I realise that I can't idolise them, and I probably can't idolise anyone, because everyone's human. I'm human too, so it might be possible for me to idolise someone, but they way I am seems to eliminate that possibility.

An example might be that Gandhi was a racist.

GHANDI. WAS RACIST ???!!!!!! WHaaatttt?!
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R0b1Billion
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4/27/2014 12:23:03 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
A person's character is something that exists in the present, not the past. Somebody who has made the greatest wrongs can be the best person, and somebody who has done the greatest good can lose their way and become evil.

The story of Kane and Abel is meant to give us guidance on this subject. Kane was guilty of the greatest wrong of all - murder - but God instructed others not to judge him. It is important that Kane was to refrain from hiding his transgression - hence the mark - which is part of our process of atoning for our sins. If somebody is unwilling to acknowledge, admit, or otherwise accept the blame for what they've done, then you can be sure they haven't grown from the experience.

As far as forgiveness from us is concerned, it is our duties to forgive those who have made transgressions against us. Refusing to forgive those who have committed wrongs makes us culpable ourselves (the Bible poetically says we are "seven times" as bad as the person who committed the wrong). Forgive but do not forget is good advice. Refusal to forgive becomes the basis for future misdeeds, and you will notice that those around you who cling to old transgressions do so only to justify their own vice.
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- Objectivity is secondary to subjectivity.
- The War on Drugs is the worst policy in the U.S.
- Most people worship technology as a religion.
- Computers will never become sentient.
zmikecuber
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4/27/2014 1:59:49 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/27/2014 1:59:31 AM, Ore_Ele wrote:
This is more of personal philosophy, and "forgive" might not be the right word. May "overlook" or something, but anyway, lets dive on in.

I think it is fair to say that for all of us, there are people out there that function as role models, be they JFK, Reagan, Gandhi, that Llama guy for Delhi. But we all know that none of them are "perfect" role models (at least, I hope we all know that). They may be good 99% of the time and muck it up that other 1%.

My question is, is there anything that can be so atrocious that no amounts of good deeds can overcome it? Is there any action or belief, that someone could have that is so bad, that it leaves such a tarnish on their reputation that we cannot view them as a good person? What I'm curious about is not where the far end of the extreme is, but where the fine line is? Can someone that is a racist or sexist at heart do enough good in the world in other aspects for us to say "yeah, he is one heck of a good guy."

Well it depends what you mean by "forgive". If by "forgive" you mean having the emotional feeling of "oh it's all cool and he's fine" then no, I think some people commit such horrible crimes taht it's nearly impossible to "feel" forgiving of them. But I think that forgiveness is an act of the will, which should always be done when someone does something wrong.

That's not to say that they shouldn't be punished or anything. I'm in favor of the death penalty, but I think we should forgive the criminals.
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R0b1Billion
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4/27/2014 4:00:48 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/27/2014 1:59:49 PM, zmikecuber wrote:
At 4/27/2014 1:59:31 AM, Ore_Ele wrote:
This is more of personal philosophy, and "forgive" might not be the right word. May "overlook" or something, but anyway, lets dive on in.

I think it is fair to say that for all of us, there are people out there that function as role models, be they JFK, Reagan, Gandhi, that Llama guy for Delhi. But we all know that none of them are "perfect" role models (at least, I hope we all know that). They may be good 99% of the time and muck it up that other 1%.

My question is, is there anything that can be so atrocious that no amounts of good deeds can overcome it? Is there any action or belief, that someone could have that is so bad, that it leaves such a tarnish on their reputation that we cannot view them as a good person? What I'm curious about is not where the far end of the extreme is, but where the fine line is? Can someone that is a racist or sexist at heart do enough good in the world in other aspects for us to say "yeah, he is one heck of a good guy."

Well it depends what you mean by "forgive". If by "forgive" you mean having the emotional feeling of "oh it's all cool and he's fine" then no, I think some people commit such horrible crimes taht it's nearly impossible to "feel" forgiving of them. But I think that forgiveness is an act of the will, which should always be done when someone does something wrong.

That's not to say that they shouldn't be punished or anything. I'm in favor of the death penalty, but I think we should forgive the criminals.

I see... so we kill them and forgive them. That's a neat idea...
Beliefs in a nutshell:
- The Ends never justify the Means.
- Objectivity is secondary to subjectivity.
- The War on Drugs is the worst policy in the U.S.
- Most people worship technology as a religion.
- Computers will never become sentient.
zmikecuber
Posts: 4,093
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4/27/2014 5:32:09 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/27/2014 4:00:48 PM, R0b1Billion wrote:
At 4/27/2014 1:59:49 PM, zmikecuber wrote:
At 4/27/2014 1:59:31 AM, Ore_Ele wrote:
This is more of personal philosophy, and "forgive" might not be the right word. May "overlook" or something, but anyway, lets dive on in.

I think it is fair to say that for all of us, there are people out there that function as role models, be they JFK, Reagan, Gandhi, that Llama guy for Delhi. But we all know that none of them are "perfect" role models (at least, I hope we all know that). They may be good 99% of the time and muck it up that other 1%.

My question is, is there anything that can be so atrocious that no amounts of good deeds can overcome it? Is there any action or belief, that someone could have that is so bad, that it leaves such a tarnish on their reputation that we cannot view them as a good person? What I'm curious about is not where the far end of the extreme is, but where the fine line is? Can someone that is a racist or sexist at heart do enough good in the world in other aspects for us to say "yeah, he is one heck of a good guy."

Well it depends what you mean by "forgive". If by "forgive" you mean having the emotional feeling of "oh it's all cool and he's fine" then no, I think some people commit such horrible crimes taht it's nearly impossible to "feel" forgiving of them. But I think that forgiveness is an act of the will, which should always be done when someone does something wrong.

That's not to say that they shouldn't be punished or anything. I'm in favor of the death penalty, but I think we should forgive the criminals.

I see... so we kill them and forgive them. That's a neat idea...

Well if you were going to kill them, wouldn't it be better to forgive them and kill them than not forgive them and still kill them?
"Delete your fvcking sig" -1hard

"primal man had the habit, when he came into contact with fire, of satisfying the infantile desire connected with it, by putting it out with a stream of his urine... Putting out the fire by micturating was therefore a kind of sexual act with a male, an enjoyment of sexual potency in a homosexual competition."
1Devilsadvocate
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4/27/2014 9:21:56 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/27/2014 12:18:48 PM, ESocialBookworm wrote:
At 4/27/2014 12:01:06 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 4/27/2014 4:01:38 AM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
I think personally I do this too easily. If they seem to be publicly supporting a health lifestyle with no evidence behind it, or charging a lot of money for their time, if they seem to be deceiving in any way, trying to brag while trying to claim they're humble in exactly the same moment etc. it's hard to come up with these or remember them because they're so minor. I try to avoid looking up to people too much because I see how others get rose-coloured glasses for their idols. I've never really looked up to rockstars or filmstars, which I think quite a few people I know may have.

Things that are definitely bad are major crimes; murder, rape etc. Minor crimes may have an impact such as; theft and vandalism. Seeming to be some sort of cult leader is also a major one.

I think I still look up to people who have made minor transgressions, but I realise that I can't idolise them, and I probably can't idolise anyone, because everyone's human. I'm human too, so it might be possible for me to idolise someone, but they way I am seems to eliminate that possibility.

An example might be that Gandhi was a racist.

GHANDI. WAS RACIST ???!!!!!! WHaaatttt?!

https://en.wikipedia.org...
www.theguardian.com/world/2003/oct/17/southafrica.india
http://www.telegraph.co.uk...
abcnews.go.com/Health/gandhi-book-claims-indian-leader-bisexual-racist/story?id=13255847
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R0b1Billion
Posts: 3,733
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4/27/2014 9:32:00 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/27/2014 5:32:09 PM, zmikecuber wrote:
At 4/27/2014 4:00:48 PM, R0b1Billion wrote:
At 4/27/2014 1:59:49 PM, zmikecuber wrote:
At 4/27/2014 1:59:31 AM, Ore_Ele wrote:
This is more of personal philosophy, and "forgive" might not be the right word. May "overlook" or something, but anyway, lets dive on in.

I think it is fair to say that for all of us, there are people out there that function as role models, be they JFK, Reagan, Gandhi, that Llama guy for Delhi. But we all know that none of them are "perfect" role models (at least, I hope we all know that). They may be good 99% of the time and muck it up that other 1%.

My question is, is there anything that can be so atrocious that no amounts of good deeds can overcome it? Is there any action or belief, that someone could have that is so bad, that it leaves such a tarnish on their reputation that we cannot view them as a good person? What I'm curious about is not where the far end of the extreme is, but where the fine line is? Can someone that is a racist or sexist at heart do enough good in the world in other aspects for us to say "yeah, he is one heck of a good guy."

Well it depends what you mean by "forgive". If by "forgive" you mean having the emotional feeling of "oh it's all cool and he's fine" then no, I think some people commit such horrible crimes taht it's nearly impossible to "feel" forgiving of them. But I think that forgiveness is an act of the will, which should always be done when someone does something wrong.

That's not to say that they shouldn't be punished or anything. I'm in favor of the death penalty, but I think we should forgive the criminals.

I see... so we kill them and forgive them. That's a neat idea...

Well if you were going to kill them, wouldn't it be better to forgive them and kill them than not forgive them and still kill them?

"I forgive you, my son...."
*running away* "noooooo!!!!"
Beliefs in a nutshell:
- The Ends never justify the Means.
- Objectivity is secondary to subjectivity.
- The War on Drugs is the worst policy in the U.S.
- Most people worship technology as a religion.
- Computers will never become sentient.