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Is Hell really that bad?

socratits
Posts: 12
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5/18/2014 12:32:05 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
I haven't thought this through but I am leaning towards the fact that Hell might not be as scary as what people make it out to be. Now please understand that I am not religious in any way nor am I supporting Satan or for people to go to Hell. All I want is a professional, philosophical debate as to why you fear or not fear Hell. That means no extremists calling out names in this thread!

The crux of my argument is based on the fear of suffering. We are afraid of going to Hell because of all the suffering we have to endure. We suffer because humans are innately selfish and that when an event or force or factor goes against our goals, beliefs, or physical function (referring to our bodies), we suffer. If this is true then, why should we be afraid of going to Hell? In the afterlife, we will be immortal and we have no goals. We can't change the environment we are in such that if Satan himself decides to stab me 24/7 while I burn in Hell, what's there to be afraid of? There is no consequence to the actions done by Satan. I'm not going to die from the consequence and the results does not affect my goals in the afterlife for I will have none.

Like I said, this was a quick thought on this topic. I will add that I do not have any religious background so if people are going to quote from a religious text, I would appreciate it if you can give me some background information to help me understand.

Thank you for your time and I look forward to the responses!
wrichcirw
Posts: 11,196
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5/18/2014 4:15:56 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/18/2014 12:32:05 AM, socratits wrote:
I haven't thought this through but I am leaning towards the fact that Hell might not be as scary as what people make it out to be. Now please understand that I am not religious in any way nor am I supporting Satan or for people to go to Hell. All I want is a professional, philosophical debate as to why you fear or not fear Hell. That means no extremists calling out names in this thread!

The crux of my argument is based on the fear of suffering. We are afraid of going to Hell because of all the suffering we have to endure. We suffer because humans are innately selfish and that when an event or force or factor goes against our goals, beliefs, or physical function (referring to our bodies), we suffer. If this is true then, why should we be afraid of going to Hell? In the afterlife, we will be immortal and we have no goals. We can't change the environment we are in such that if Satan himself decides to stab me 24/7 while I burn in Hell, what's there to be afraid of? There is no consequence to the actions done by Satan. I'm not going to die from the consequence and the results does not affect my goals in the afterlife for I will have none.

Like I said, this was a quick thought on this topic. I will add that I do not have any religious background so if people are going to quote from a religious text, I would appreciate it if you can give me some background information to help me understand.

Thank you for your time and I look forward to the responses!

Yours is a popular conception of hell.

My own from my experiences with Christianity is that hell is a state of being "apart from God". God is, so to be apart from God is to not be.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
Bannanawamajama
Posts: 125
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5/18/2014 11:41:01 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Well for one, I think that the guy posting above me has a right idea. The mainstream depiction of hell is, I think, something born out of the middle ages when it was common to use the threat of pain to keep people in line, but that's not what Hell is really supposed to be. More, its a condition where you can go to your afterlife and do whatever you want, but you don't get to spend eternity with God. Just be with other atheists or sinners. This makes sense because if you are the kind of person who really likes drinking or sex or whatever, it wouldn't be much of a paradise for you in heaven where everything you find pleasure in is rejected. The "suffering" of hell would come from the fact that you realize God is real, and there are people who get to spend eternity with an all powerful diety that can give them anything they want, and you're missing it. Hell would be kind of like continuing to live on Earth, where you aren't specifically punished, but you still don't get everything you want, and you're tortured by the knowledge that there are other people that do.

Also, I would like to point out that your idea that suffering couldn't exist in the standard Hell seems flawed. Even if you can't die, getting stabbed over and over by Satan for eternity would hurt. Like, alot. The fact that you don't have any long term goals just means that you focus exclusively in the present, meaning any negative that happens to you is even worse than on Earth, since you can rationalize suffering on Earth with "Oh, well this sucks, but things will get better once I achieve *BLANK* and it will all be worth it then."
socratits
Posts: 12
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5/18/2014 4:38:57 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/18/2014 11:41:01 AM, Bannanawamajama wrote:
Well for one, I think that the guy posting above me has a right idea. The mainstream depiction of hell is, I think, something born out of the middle ages when it was common to use the threat of pain to keep people in line, but that's not what Hell is really supposed to be. More, its a condition where you can go to your afterlife and do whatever you want, but you don't get to spend eternity with God. Just be with other atheists or sinners. This makes sense because if you are the kind of person who really likes drinking or sex or whatever, it wouldn't be much of a paradise for you in heaven where everything you find pleasure in is rejected. The "suffering" of hell would come from the fact that you realize God is real, and there are people who get to spend eternity with an all powerful diety that can give them anything they want, and you're missing it. Hell would be kind of like continuing to live on Earth, where you aren't specifically punished, but you still don't get everything you want, and you're tortured by the knowledge that there are other people that do.

Also, I would like to point out that your idea that suffering couldn't exist in the standard Hell seems flawed. Even if you can't die, getting stabbed over and over by Satan for eternity would hurt. Like, alot. The fact that you don't have any long term goals just means that you focus exclusively in the present, meaning any negative that happens to you is even worse than on Earth, since you can rationalize suffering on Earth with "Oh, well this sucks, but things will get better once I achieve *BLANK* and it will all be worth it then."

Well in response to your pain argument, I do agree that being stabbed would suck, but I'm also confused as to how this whole dying thing works in Christianity. I realize that our souls goes up or down, but does our mind follow our souls? What I'm trying to differentiate is that if only our souls go to hell, then we wouldn't experience pain. Pain stems from our physiological self telling us that we are in harm. In Hell, there really is no "harm" in the physical sense as we do here on earth. Our mind would have no purpose of sensing pain because we are immortal. Additionally, if our minds don't follow us then it doesnt matter all together cause we cant feel pain.

I understand the rationalization part and how it's different here on earth but I see Hell's suffering as a learned helplessness act where we let it be. It's different on earth because we have at least an option to change what we screwed up.
socratits
Posts: 12
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5/18/2014 4:42:14 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Yours is a popular conception of hell.

My own from my experiences with Christianity is that hell is a state of being "apart from God". God is, so to be apart from God is to not be.

OK, I understand what you mean. Can you clarify for me the relationship between Satan and God? Aren't they brothers? If so, why did they split? Additionally, what is the difference between being with God and being with Satan if they were "related." Because I think we would all agree that both Satan and God have ungodly powers.
TN05
Posts: 4,492
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5/18/2014 4:57:07 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/18/2014 4:42:14 PM, socratits wrote:
Yours is a popular conception of hell.

My own from my experiences with Christianity is that hell is a state of being "apart from God". God is, so to be apart from God is to not be.

OK, I understand what you mean. Can you clarify for me the relationship between Satan and God? Aren't they brothers? If so, why did they split? Additionally, what is the difference between being with God and being with Satan if they were "related." Because I think we would all agree that both Satan and God have ungodly powers.

Lolwut?
socratits
Posts: 12
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5/18/2014 5:01:03 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/18/2014 4:57:07 PM, TN05 wrote:
At 5/18/2014 4:42:14 PM, socratits wrote:
Yours is a popular conception of hell.

My own from my experiences with Christianity is that hell is a state of being "apart from God". God is, so to be apart from God is to not be.

OK, I understand what you mean. Can you clarify for me the relationship between Satan and God? Aren't they brothers? If so, why did they split? Additionally, what is the difference between being with God and being with Satan if they were "related." Because I think we would all agree that both Satan and God have ungodly powers.

Lolwut?

My knowledge on any religious text is so non-existant that it's a sin.
Bannanawamajama
Posts: 125
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5/18/2014 5:32:11 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Satan isn't God's brother. He used to be Lucifer, the greatest of the archangels. Eventually his pride got the better of him, and he couldn't deal with being inferior to anyone, even God, so he rebelled against him. God cast him and anyone who followed him out of heaven and he fell, becoming the devil. Now he tries to lead others astray as well so that they will be his followers instead of Gods. Eventually after the Rapture Lucifer's forces will battle the angels still loyal to God on Earth, which will be the end of the world.
Geogeer
Posts: 4,244
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5/18/2014 8:25:56 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/18/2014 5:32:11 PM, Bannanawamajama wrote:
Satan isn't God's brother. He used to be Lucifer, the greatest of the archangels. Eventually his pride got the better of him, and he couldn't deal with being inferior to anyone, even God, so he rebelled against him. God cast him and anyone who followed him out of heaven and he fell, becoming the devil. Now he tries to lead others astray as well so that they will be his followers instead of Gods. Eventually after the Rapture Lucifer's forces will battle the angels still loyal to God on Earth, which will be the end of the world.

Actually my understanding is that he was okay with being inferior to God, because hey it's the truth. However the angels were called to serve mankind which is less than them. This is what caused his fall. Out of pride he refused to serve.
Idealist
Posts: 2,520
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5/18/2014 11:45:24 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/18/2014 12:32:05 AM, socratits wrote:
I haven't thought this through but I am leaning towards the fact that Hell might not be as scary as what people make it out to be. Now please understand that I am not religious in any way nor am I supporting Satan or for people to go to Hell. All I want is a professional, philosophical debate as to why you fear or not fear Hell. That means no extremists calling out names in this thread!

The crux of my argument is based on the fear of suffering. We are afraid of going to Hell because of all the suffering we have to endure. We suffer because humans are innately selfish and that when an event or force or factor goes against our goals, beliefs, or physical function (referring to our bodies), we suffer. If this is true then, why should we be afraid of going to Hell? In the afterlife, we will be immortal and we have no goals. We can't change the environment we are in such that if Satan himself decides to stab me 24/7 while I burn in Hell, what's there to be afraid of? There is no consequence to the actions done by Satan. I'm not going to die from the consequence and the results does not affect my goals in the afterlife for I will have none.

Like I said, this was a quick thought on this topic. I will add that I do not have any religious background so if people are going to quote from a religious text, I would appreciate it if you can give me some background information to help me understand.

Thank you for your time and I look forward to the responses!

I think I understand the crux of your argument, but I'm not sure I totally agree. As someone who has lived with chronic pain for over a decade I can tell you that it never becomes a normal state. Persistent pain is like hopelessness and boredom. It slowly erodes the mind and the senses. But no matter how bad it is, or how much it causes suffering, any new suffering is still felt as a new and unique sensation. It's like stubbing your toe when your foot is already so cold that it hurts like heck. The existent pain doesn't detract from the new pain - it actually makes it worse. For me the greatest fear of Hell would be that it's supposed to be eternal. I think that in the long-run the never-changing aspect of it would be worse than any pain.
socratits
Posts: 12
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5/19/2014 12:22:13 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
I think I understand the crux of your argument, but I'm not sure I totally agree. As someone who has lived with chronic pain for over a decade I can tell you that it never becomes a normal state. Persistent pain is like hopelessness and boredom. It slowly erodes the mind and the senses. But no matter how bad it is, or how much it causes suffering, any new suffering is still felt as a new and unique sensation. It's like stubbing your toe when your foot is already so cold that it hurts like heck. The existent pain doesn't detract from the new pain - it actually makes it worse. For me the greatest fear of Hell would be that it's supposed to be eternal. I think that in the long-run the never-changing aspect of it would be worse than any pain.

I responded back to someone else earlier addressing the pain issue. To me, I am not sure if the mind goes with us to Hell or only the soul. I make this point because if the mind doesn't come with us, then we can't experience pain.

I do realize that this is the weakest point in my thinking because of the fact that I can't prove that continual pain is good in any way unless one is sadistic. For me, this debate was more about thinking about Hell and Heaven and treating both, as is and not something that I should make my life around.
wrichcirw
Posts: 11,196
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5/19/2014 12:48:33 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/18/2014 4:42:14 PM, socratits wrote:
Yours is a popular conception of hell.

My own from my experiences with Christianity is that hell is a state of being "apart from God". God is, so to be apart from God is to not be.

OK, I understand what you mean. Can you clarify for me the relationship between Satan and God? Aren't they brothers? If so, why did they split? Additionally, what is the difference between being with God and being with Satan if they were "related." Because I think we would all agree that both Satan and God have ungodly powers.

This chapter in the Bible is typically cited as being Satan's origin story (notice the remarkable shift between the prince vs the king of Tyre, how the latter description is much, much more metaphysical and that this "king of Tyre" existed in Eden before the fall of man):

http://www.biblegateway.com...
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
Idealist
Posts: 2,520
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5/19/2014 1:43:14 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/19/2014 12:22:13 AM, socratits wrote:
I think I understand the crux of your argument, but I'm not sure I totally agree. As someone who has lived with chronic pain for over a decade I can tell you that it never becomes a normal state. Persistent pain is like hopelessness and boredom. It slowly erodes the mind and the senses. But no matter how bad it is, or how much it causes suffering, any new suffering is still felt as a new and unique sensation. It's like stubbing your toe when your foot is already so cold that it hurts like heck. The existent pain doesn't detract from the new pain - it actually makes it worse. For me the greatest fear of Hell would be that it's supposed to be eternal. I think that in the long-run the never-changing aspect of it would be worse than any pain.

I responded back to someone else earlier addressing the pain issue. To me, I am not sure if the mind goes with us to Hell or only the soul. I make this point because if the mind doesn't come with us, then we can't experience pain.

I do realize that this is the weakest point in my thinking because of the fact that I can't prove that continual pain is good in any way unless one is sadistic. For me, this debate was more about thinking about Hell and Heaven and treating both, as is and not something that I should make my life around.

Actually it makes me feel better to think that maybe the mind doesn't tag along with us. :) Maybe it's more like a dream-state where the subconscious is in charge and we live in a world where anything can happen. Where the only limitation is the boundaries of our minds. It's a nice thought. :P
socratits
Posts: 12
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5/19/2014 7:03:08 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/19/2014 1:43:14 AM, Idealist wrote:
At 5/19/2014 12:22:13 AM, socratits wrote:
I think I understand the crux of your argument, but I'm not sure I totally agree. As someone who has lived with chronic pain for over a decade I can tell you that it never becomes a normal state. Persistent pain is like hopelessness and boredom. It slowly erodes the mind and the senses. But no matter how bad it is, or how much it causes suffering, any new suffering is still felt as a new and unique sensation. It's like stubbing your toe when your foot is already so cold that it hurts like heck. The existent pain doesn't detract from the new pain - it actually makes it worse. For me the greatest fear of Hell would be that it's supposed to be eternal. I think that in the long-run the never-changing aspect of it would be worse than any pain.

I responded back to someone else earlier addressing the pain issue. To me, I am not sure if the mind goes with us to Hell or only the soul. I make this point because if the mind doesn't come with us, then we can't experience pain.

I do realize that this is the weakest point in my thinking because of the fact that I can't prove that continual pain is good in any way unless one is sadistic. For me, this debate was more about thinking about Hell and Heaven and treating both, as is and not something that I should make my life around.

Actually it makes me feel better to think that maybe the mind doesn't tag along with us. :) Maybe it's more like a dream-state where the subconscious is in charge and we live in a world where anything can happen. Where the only limitation is the boundaries of our minds. It's a nice thought. :P

Well If the mind doesnt come with us, then we can question as to whether we would actually suffer in Hell considering we won't experience pain.
Idealist
Posts: 2,520
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5/20/2014 7:57:03 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/19/2014 7:03:08 AM, socratits wrote:
At 5/19/2014 1:43:14 AM, Idealist wrote:
At 5/19/2014 12:22:13 AM, socratits wrote:
I think I understand the crux of your argument, but I'm not sure I totally agree. As someone who has lived with chronic pain for over a decade I can tell you that it never becomes a normal state. Persistent pain is like hopelessness and boredom. It slowly erodes the mind and the senses. But no matter how bad it is, or how much it causes suffering, any new suffering is still felt as a new and unique sensation. It's like stubbing your toe when your foot is already so cold that it hurts like heck. The existent pain doesn't detract from the new pain - it actually makes it worse. For me the greatest fear of Hell would be that it's supposed to be eternal. I think that in the long-run the never-changing aspect of it would be worse than any pain.

I responded back to someone else earlier addressing the pain issue. To me, I am not sure if the mind goes with us to Hell or only the soul. I make this point because if the mind doesn't come with us, then we can't experience pain.

I do realize that this is the weakest point in my thinking because of the fact that I can't prove that continual pain is good in any way unless one is sadistic. For me, this debate was more about thinking about Hell and Heaven and treating both, as is and not something that I should make my life around.

Actually it makes me feel better to think that maybe the mind doesn't tag along with us. :) Maybe it's more like a dream-state where the subconscious is in charge and we live in a world where anything can happen. Where the only limitation is the boundaries of our minds. It's a nice thought. :P

Well If the mind doesnt come with us, then we can question as to whether we would actually suffer in Hell considering we won't experience pain.

Yes, I suppose we can, if one accepts the idea of Hell. Still, even a nightmare can be a pretty dreadful experience. :-/