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Pinocchio Paradox

Rational_Thinker9119
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7/13/2014 8:39:09 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
What would happen if Pinocchio said "my nose will grow now"?. If it grows, then that must mean that he was lying because his nose only grows when he is lying. However, if his nose grows then "my nose will grow now" is true and cannot be a lie (contradiction). If it doesn't grow, then he lied because "my nose will grow now" would be false. However, that is a contradiction too because if he lied then his nose must grow.
rross
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7/13/2014 9:12:39 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/13/2014 8:39:09 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
What would happen if Pinocchio said "my nose will grow now"?. If it grows, then that must mean that he was lying because his nose only grows when he is lying. However, if his nose grows then "my nose will grow now" is true and cannot be a lie (contradiction). If it doesn't grow, then he lied because "my nose will grow now" would be false. However, that is a contradiction too because if he lied then his nose must grow.

How can a prediction about the future be a lie? Nobody can know the future, so it can only be false rather than untruthful.

It could only be a lie if he said "i think my nose will grow" when he really thought no such thing. In which case, his nose will grow. Or he could say, "I don't think my nose will grow" when he secretly knew it would, and then it would grow too.
Rational_Thinker9119
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7/13/2014 10:05:19 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/13/2014 9:12:39 PM, rross wrote:
At 7/13/2014 8:39:09 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
What would happen if Pinocchio said "my nose will grow now"?. If it grows, then that must mean that he was lying because his nose only grows when he is lying. However, if his nose grows then "my nose will grow now" is true and cannot be a lie (contradiction). If it doesn't grow, then he lied because "my nose will grow now" would be false. However, that is a contradiction too because if he lied then his nose must grow.

How can a prediction about the future be a lie? Nobody can know the future, so it can only be false rather than untruthful.

Exactly. Nobody can know the future, but if one claims "my nose will grow now" then that presupposes that that they do know the future which even they know is false. So, if the person making the statement doesn't know the future, then the claim of "my nose will grow now" is still a lie, because it presupposes that the person can know the future, which the person making the statement knows is not true.


It could only be a lie if he said "i think my nose will grow" when he really thought no such thing. In which case, his nose will grow. Or he could say, "I don't think my nose will grow" when he secretly knew it would, and then it would grow too.
bladerunner060
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7/13/2014 10:48:34 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/13/2014 8:39:09 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
What would happen if Pinocchio said "my nose will grow now"?. If it grows, then that must mean that he was lying because his nose only grows when he is lying. However, if his nose grows then "my nose will grow now" is true and cannot be a lie (contradiction). If it doesn't grow, then he lied because "my nose will grow now" would be false. However, that is a contradiction too because if he lied then his nose must grow.

The only problem with this paradox is that I believe it was the "intent" that got him. So it couldn't be a good faith "my nose will grow"; that's not a lie, he's just wrong. And of course "now" is term of specific timing. The "now" conditional applies to the moment he says it, and if he knows it will not grow and says it intentionally, then it's a lie, and his nose will grow THEN.

I would think, anyway.
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Rational_Thinker9119
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7/13/2014 10:52:52 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/13/2014 10:48:34 PM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 7/13/2014 8:39:09 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
What would happen if Pinocchio said "my nose will grow now"?. If it grows, then that must mean that he was lying because his nose only grows when he is lying. However, if his nose grows then "my nose will grow now" is true and cannot be a lie (contradiction). If it doesn't grow, then he lied because "my nose will grow now" would be false. However, that is a contradiction too because if he lied then his nose must grow.

The only problem with this paradox is that I believe it was the "intent" that got him. So it couldn't be a good faith "my nose will grow"; that's not a lie, he's just wrong.

I would disagree. It is a lie because there is no way he could know the future (he started the sentence implying that he knew something about the future) , and he knows that he couldn't know the future, so there is still deceit. I would still say that is a lie, even if indirectly.

And of course "now" is term of specific timing. The "now" conditional applies to the moment he says it, and if he knows it will not grow and says it intentionally, then it's a lie, and his nose will grow THEN.

The "now" is at the end of the sentence. He would start the sentence expecting someone to believe that he had knowledge of the future.


I would think, anyway.
Rational_Thinker9119
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7/13/2014 11:00:55 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
I better way to formulate it would be to have Pinocchio say "my nose is growing". That way he doesn't have to know the future, just the present.
bladerunner060
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7/13/2014 11:10:43 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/13/2014 10:52:52 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 7/13/2014 10:48:34 PM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 7/13/2014 8:39:09 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
What would happen if Pinocchio said "my nose will grow now"?. If it grows, then that must mean that he was lying because his nose only grows when he is lying. However, if his nose grows then "my nose will grow now" is true and cannot be a lie (contradiction). If it doesn't grow, then he lied because "my nose will grow now" would be false. However, that is a contradiction too because if he lied then his nose must grow.

The only problem with this paradox is that I believe it was the "intent" that got him. So it couldn't be a good faith "my nose will grow"; that's not a lie, he's just wrong.

I would disagree. It is a lie because there is no way he could know the future (he started the sentence implying that he knew something about the future) , and he knows that he couldn't know the future, so there is still deceit. I would still say that is a lie, even if indirectly.

Well, yeah, I was just qualifying.

And of course "now" is term of specific timing. The "now" conditional applies to the moment he says it, and if he knows it will not grow and says it intentionally, then it's a lie, and his nose will grow THEN.

The "now" is at the end of the sentence. He would start the sentence expecting someone to believe that he had knowledge of the future.

True, but as long as the nose waits even an instant, it becomes a lie.

It's probably mere pedantry on my part.

I would think, anyway.
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s-anthony
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7/13/2014 11:45:22 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/13/2014 8:39:09 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
What would happen if Pinocchio said "my nose will grow now"?. If it grows, then that must mean that he was lying because his nose only grows when he is lying. However, if his nose grows then "my nose will grow now" is true and cannot be a lie (contradiction). If it doesn't grow, then he lied because "my nose will grow now" would be false. However, that is a contradiction too because if he lied then his nose must grow.

Meaning is defined by a correlation; It is ascribed by one for the other; meaning is not found alone. "If a tree falls, in the forest, and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?" Only if one defines it as such. However, it is only sentience that can define correlations.
rross
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7/14/2014 12:10:50 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/13/2014 10:52:52 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 7/13/2014 10:48:34 PM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 7/13/2014 8:39:09 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
What would happen if Pinocchio said "my nose will grow now"?. If it grows, then that must mean that he was lying because his nose only grows when he is lying. However, if his nose grows then "my nose will grow now" is true and cannot be a lie (contradiction). If it doesn't grow, then he lied because "my nose will grow now" would be false. However, that is a contradiction too because if he lied then his nose must grow.

The only problem with this paradox is that I believe it was the "intent" that got him. So it couldn't be a good faith "my nose will grow"; that's not a lie, he's just wrong.

I would disagree. It is a lie because there is no way he could know the future (he started the sentence implying that he knew something about the future) , and he knows that he couldn't know the future, so there is still deceit. I would still say that is a lie, even if indirectly.

And of course "now" is term of specific timing. The "now" conditional applies to the moment he says it, and if he knows it will not grow and says it intentionally, then it's a lie, and his nose will grow THEN.

The "now" is at the end of the sentence. He would start the sentence expecting someone to believe that he had knowledge of the future.


I would think, anyway.

I don't think so. If I said, "it will be sunny tomorrow" or "you're going to win!" everyone knows that these are just my opinions, on the grounds that predicting the future is impossible.

So Pinocchio's lie could be he's expressing an opinion that he doesn't really hold (see above), OR it could be that he's pretending to know the future when he can't. If it's the latter, then the lie is in the pretense about the future and not about the nose growing per se. Therefore, even if he guesses right (about the nose), then he's still lying about predicting the future and the nose can still grow.
neptune1bond
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7/14/2014 1:26:55 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Since the blue fairy would have been the one to cast the spell that not only brought Pinocchio to life but also made his nose grow, the outcomes would have been determined by her intentions, limitations, and restrictions that she placed on the spell. At the very best and without any knowledge of how the magic works, the results might be similar to a computer where it just pops up an "error" and simply nothing happens. There's also a possibility that (since nature cannot allow for a true paradox) it could just cause a chain reaction of magical imbalance that creates a massive explosion killing Pinocchio and anyone in a 50 mile radius.

In reality, since Pinocchio, blue fairies, and noses that grow when you lie do no actually exist, there really is no paradox. All you could do to find the true answer of "what would happen" is to ask the writer of the original novel (Carlo Collodi is dead, so we'll never know in that case) or to ask the creators of the Disney film (many of which is also probably dead) or ask the creators of any preferred incarnation of the story that you might have. The other alternative is to make up your own result and you could then simply say,"I write into the story that the result is a paradox" and since you can do whatever you want when writing stories, that is the way it would be in your story. But still the actual result is that a paradox does not exist in the real world.
s-anthony
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7/14/2014 1:46:48 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/14/2014 1:26:55 PM, neptune1bond wrote:
Since the blue fairy would have been the one to cast the spell that not only brought Pinocchio to life but also made his nose grow, the outcomes would have been determined by her intentions, limitations, and restrictions that she placed on the spell. At the very best and without any knowledge of how the magic works, the results might be similar to a computer where it just pops up an "error" and simply nothing happens. There's also a possibility that (since nature cannot allow for a true paradox) it could just cause a chain reaction of magical imbalance that creates a massive explosion killing Pinocchio and anyone in a 50 mile radius.

In reality, since Pinocchio, blue fairies, and noses that grow when you lie do no actually exist, there really is no paradox. All you could do to find the true answer of "what would happen" is to ask the writer of the original novel (Carlo Collodi is dead, so we'll never know in that case) or to ask the creators of the Disney film (many of which is also probably dead) or ask the creators of any preferred incarnation of the story that you might have. The other alternative is to make up your own result and you could then simply say,"I write into the story that the result is a paradox" and since you can do whatever you want when writing stories, that is the way it would be in your story. But still the actual result is that a paradox does not exist in the real world.

Not only do paradoxes exist, in the real world, the real world exists, because of paradoxes.
neptune1bond
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7/14/2014 2:06:33 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/14/2014 1:46:48 PM, s-anthony wrote:

Not only do paradoxes exist, in the real world, the real world exists, because of paradoxes.

You do realize that an assertion without evidence is simply opinion, right? It's nice that you believe that, but I personally believe otherwise. Most paradoxes that I've seen simply involve word games or silly philosophical gymnastics that don't actually define the true workings of nature and reality. History has shown that even the unanswered questions in life and seemingly contradictory nature of some natural occurrences almost always end in us finding reasonable answers that work on certain principles that can be defined, understood, and are entirely consistent. Given our history of discovery and the fact that we always seem to eventually come to this conclusion as our understanding grows, there is absolutely no reason to believe that any current apparent paradox will not end with the same result. All evidence points towards consistency and a complete lack of contradiction. Any seeming inconsistency really just stems from an ignorance of all the influencing factors involved or the true nature of the apparent "paradox".
s-anthony
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7/14/2014 2:21:14 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/14/2014 2:06:33 PM, neptune1bond wrote:
At 7/14/2014 1:46:48 PM, s-anthony wrote:

Not only do paradoxes exist, in the real world, the real world exists, because of paradoxes.

You do realize that an assertion without evidence is simply opinion, right? It's nice that you believe that, but I personally believe otherwise. Most paradoxes that I've seen simply involve word games or silly philosophical gymnastics that don't actually define the true workings of nature and reality. History has shown that even the unanswered questions in life and seemingly contradictory nature of some natural occurrences almost always end in us finding reasonable answers that work on certain principles that can be defined, understood, and are entirely consistent. Given our history of discovery and the fact that we always seem to eventually come to this conclusion as our understanding grows, there is absolutely no reason to believe that any current apparent paradox will not end with the same result. All evidence points towards consistency and a complete lack of contradiction. Any seeming inconsistency really just stems from an ignorance of all the influencing factors involved or the true nature of the apparent "paradox".

You speak of nothing, as though it were something, and then say paradoxes don't exist.
neptune1bond
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7/14/2014 2:53:18 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/14/2014 2:21:14 PM, s-anthony wrote:

You speak of nothing, as though it were something, and then say paradoxes don't exist.

Your statements seem to be a whole lot of nothing to me, or at least far more than what you claim mine to be, anyways. The fact that you claim my logic is "nothing" without providing any argument to the contrary means that your statements can be dismissed completely. You have no actual argument, just bare assertions. The fact that you just make claims without any logic or evidence to follow makes the things that you've said utterly worthless. If you actually want to claim that I speak of "nothing", then prove it, but don't waste my time with baseless assertions that you cannot support. No one on this forum is going to assume you to be some "enlightened being" that spouts nothing but truth. You have no such influence here. The whole purpose of a debate forum is mainly based on the idea of "put up or shut up". Your single sentence statements of opinion are completely useless to anyone but yourself.
PeacefulChaos
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7/14/2014 3:16:27 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/13/2014 8:39:09 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
What would happen if Pinocchio said "my nose will grow now"?. If it grows, then that must mean that he was lying because his nose only grows when he is lying. However, if his nose grows then "my nose will grow now" is true and cannot be a lie (contradiction). If it doesn't grow, then he lied because "my nose will grow now" would be false. However, that is a contradiction too because if he lied then his nose must grow.

Wouldn't it go something like this?

Pinocchio says "My nose will grow now." The key word is now (i.e. in that very moment). His nose will not grow in that very moment, and shortly afterwards will start growing, because he lied about his nose growing at that very moment.

There is no contradiction from this.
s-anthony
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7/14/2014 3:18:01 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/14/2014 2:53:18 PM, neptune1bond wrote:
At 7/14/2014 2:21:14 PM, s-anthony wrote:

You speak of nothing, as though it were something, and then say paradoxes don't exist.

Your statements seem to be a whole lot of nothing to me, or at least far more than what you claim mine to be, anyways. The fact that you claim my logic is "nothing" without providing any argument to the contrary means that your statements can be dismissed completely. You have no actual argument, just bare assert6ions. The fact that you just make claims without any logic or evidence to follow makes the things that you've said utterly worthless. If you actually want to claim that I speak of "nothing", then prove it, but don't waste my time with baseless assertions that you cannot support. No one on this forum is going to assume you to be some "enlightened being" that spouts nothing but truth. You have no such influence here. The whole purpose of a debate forum is mainly based on the idea of "put up or shut up". Your single sentence statements of opinion are completely useless to anyone but yourself.

I never said your argument was nothing. I was responding to the fact it was your assertion paradoxes don't exist; however, you speak of them as though they do exist.
neptune1bond
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7/14/2014 3:29:37 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/14/2014 3:18:01 PM, s-anthony wrote:

I never said your argument was nothing. I was responding to the fact it was your assertion paradoxes don't exist; however, you speak of them as though they do exist.

I am asserting that I believe that paradoxes do not exist in reality, not that they don't exist period. Almost anything can exist in the imaginings of human beings because the outcomes that we imagine or think is not based on actual principles of reality. In other words, "imaginary paradoxes" are not "real paradoxes". So if I say that horses both have mouths and don't have mouths at the same time, that might be a paradox, but only in my mind. Just because I say it is so doesn't actually make it so, it just makes me wrong in that instance. Being incorrect about how the world works is not an actual paradox, it is simply an "imagined paradox". The "inconsistency" only exists between my thoughts and reality, but in real life there is no inconsistency. Many things can be "faulty" or "imperfect" without actually being a paradox in reality.
s-anthony
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7/14/2014 6:01:43 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/14/2014 3:29:37 PM, neptune1bond wrote:
At 7/14/2014 3:18:01 PM, s-anthony wrote:

I never said your argument was nothing. I was responding to the fact it was your assertion paradoxes don't exist; however, you speak of them as though they do exist.

I am asserting that I believe that paradoxes do not exist in reality, not that they don't exist period. Almost anything can exist in the imaginings of human beings because the outcomes that we imagine or think is not based on actual principles of reality. In other words, "imaginary paradoxes" are not "real paradoxes". So if I say that horses both have mouths and don't have mouths at the same time, that might be a paradox, but only in my mind. Just because I say it is so doesn't actually make it so, it just makes me wrong in that instance. Being incorrect about how the world works is not an actual paradox, it is simply an "imagined paradox". The "inconsistency" only exists between my thoughts and reality, but in real life there is no inconsistency. Many things can be "faulty" or "imperfect" without actually being a paradox in reality.

In the statement, "Paradoxes are not real.", the subject paradoxes is predicated by its state of being. That which is real is that which has being, that which exists. You can't attribute existence to something and then say it doesn't exist and then say that's not a contradiction.
Wocambs
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7/14/2014 6:25:56 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/13/2014 9:12:39 PM, rross wrote:
At 7/13/2014 8:39:09 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
What would happen if Pinocchio said "my nose will grow now"?. If it grows, then that must mean that he was lying because his nose only grows when he is lying. However, if his nose grows then "my nose will grow now" is true and cannot be a lie (contradiction). If it doesn't grow, then he lied because "my nose will grow now" would be false. However, that is a contradiction too because if he lied then his nose must grow.

How can a prediction about the future be a lie? Nobody can know the future, so it can only be false rather than untruthful.

It could only be a lie if he said "i think my nose will grow" when he really thought no such thing. In which case, his nose will grow. Or he could say, "I don't think my nose will grow" when he secretly knew it would, and then it would grow too.

Nailed it. There's a difference between being a liar and being wrong, after all.
Geogeer
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7/14/2014 7:51:12 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/13/2014 8:39:09 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
What would happen if Pinocchio said "my nose will grow now"?. If it grows, then that must mean that he was lying because his nose only grows when he is lying. However, if his nose grows then "my nose will grow now" is true and cannot be a lie (contradiction). If it doesn't grow, then he lied because "my nose will grow now" would be false. However, that is a contradiction too because if he lied then his nose must grow.

The following result would have to satisfy both a true and a false answer. Thus his nose would not grow outward visibly (thus truthful), but would instead grow inward (thus false) and would result in his head exploding in a multitude of splinters.

Meaning of the fable - don't screw with paradoxes.
Rational_Thinker9119
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7/14/2014 8:30:50 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/14/2014 12:10:50 AM, rross wrote:
At 7/13/2014 10:52:52 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 7/13/2014 10:48:34 PM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 7/13/2014 8:39:09 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
What would happen if Pinocchio said "my nose will grow now"?. If it grows, then that must mean that he was lying because his nose only grows when he is lying. However, if his nose grows then "my nose will grow now" is true and cannot be a lie (contradiction). If it doesn't grow, then he lied because "my nose will grow now" would be false. However, that is a contradiction too because if he lied then his nose must grow.

The only problem with this paradox is that I believe it was the "intent" that got him. So it couldn't be a good faith "my nose will grow"; that's not a lie, he's just wrong.

I would disagree. It is a lie because there is no way he could know the future (he started the sentence implying that he knew something about the future) , and he knows that he couldn't know the future, so there is still deceit. I would still say that is a lie, even if indirectly.

And of course "now" is term of specific timing. The "now" conditional applies to the moment he says it, and if he knows it will not grow and says it intentionally, then it's a lie, and his nose will grow THEN.

The "now" is at the end of the sentence. He would start the sentence expecting someone to believe that he had knowledge of the future.


I would think, anyway.

I don't think so. If I said, "it will be sunny tomorrow" or "you're going to win!" everyone knows that these are just my opinions, on the grounds that predicting the future is impossible.

So Pinocchio's lie could be he's expressing an opinion that he doesn't really hold (see above), OR it could be that he's pretending to know the future when he can't. If it's the latter, then the lie is in the pretense about the future and not about the nose growing per se. Therefore, even if he guesses right (about the nose), then he's still lying about predicting the future and the nose can still grow.

As I said, to make it easier, we can just have a Paradox have Pinnochio say "my nose is growing". Since he would obviously know the present, then this dodges any potential problems that you may have mentioned .
Rational_Thinker9119
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7/14/2014 8:33:09 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/14/2014 3:16:27 PM, PeacefulChaos wrote:
At 7/13/2014 8:39:09 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
What would happen if Pinocchio said "my nose will grow now"?. If it grows, then that must mean that he was lying because his nose only grows when he is lying. However, if his nose grows then "my nose will grow now" is true and cannot be a lie (contradiction). If it doesn't grow, then he lied because "my nose will grow now" would be false. However, that is a contradiction too because if he lied then his nose must grow.

Wouldn't it go something like this?

Pinocchio says "My nose will grow now." The key word is now (i.e. in that very moment). His nose will not grow in that very moment, and shortly afterwards will start growing, because he lied about his nose growing at that very moment.

There is no contradiction from this.

What if he said "my nose will grow right when I say now"?
Rational_Thinker9119
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7/14/2014 8:34:26 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/14/2014 12:10:50 AM, rross wrote:
At 7/13/2014 10:52:52 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 7/13/2014 10:48:34 PM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 7/13/2014 8:39:09 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
What would happen if Pinocchio said "my nose will grow now"?. If it grows, then that must mean that he was lying because his nose only grows when he is lying. However, if his nose grows then "my nose will grow now" is true and cannot be a lie (contradiction). If it doesn't grow, then he lied because "my nose will grow now" would be false. However, that is a contradiction too because if he lied then his nose must grow.

The only problem with this paradox is that I believe it was the "intent" that got him. So it couldn't be a good faith "my nose will grow"; that's not a lie, he's just wrong.

I would disagree. It is a lie because there is no way he could know the future (he started the sentence implying that he knew something about the future) , and he knows that he couldn't know the future, so there is still deceit. I would still say that is a lie, even if indirectly.

And of course "now" is term of specific timing. The "now" conditional applies to the moment he says it, and if he knows it will not grow and says it intentionally, then it's a lie, and his nose will grow THEN.

The "now" is at the end of the sentence. He would start the sentence expecting someone to believe that he had knowledge of the future.


I would think, anyway.

I don't think so. If I said, "it will be sunny tomorrow" or "you're going to win!" everyone knows that these are just my opinions, on the grounds that predicting the future is impossible.

So Pinocchio's lie could be he's expressing an opinion that he doesn't really hold (see above), OR it could be that he's pretending to know the future when he can't. If it's the latter, then the lie is in the pretense about the future and not about the nose growing per se. Therefore, even if he guesses right (about the nose), then he's still lying about predicting the future and the nose can still grow.

Also, if predicting the future is impossible, and Pinocchio knows that, then he is still lying when talking about his nose growing in the future. To make a truth claim about the future, one has to know the the future. Since Pinocchio knows he can't know the future, it is still a lie, as that statement presupposes he can (which Pinocchio knows is false).
Rational_Thinker9119
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7/14/2014 8:36:03 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/14/2014 6:25:56 PM, Wocambs wrote:
At 7/13/2014 9:12:39 PM, rross wrote:
At 7/13/2014 8:39:09 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
What would happen if Pinocchio said "my nose will grow now"?. If it grows, then that must mean that he was lying because his nose only grows when he is lying. However, if his nose grows then "my nose will grow now" is true and cannot be a lie (contradiction). If it doesn't grow, then he lied because "my nose will grow now" would be false. However, that is a contradiction too because if he lied then his nose must grow.

How can a prediction about the future be a lie? Nobody can know the future, so it can only be false rather than untruthful.

It could only be a lie if he said "i think my nose will grow" when he really thought no such thing. In which case, his nose will grow. Or he could say, "I don't think my nose will grow" when he secretly knew it would, and then it would grow too.

Nailed it. There's a difference between being a liar and being wrong, after all.

Yes, but if he is making the truth claim "my nose will grow", then that presupposes he knows the future. Since Pinocchio knows that he doesn't know the future, that statement is still a lie, as it presupposes something Pinocchio knows is not true (that he can know the future) ;)
Wocambs
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7/14/2014 8:49:35 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/14/2014 8:36:03 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 7/14/2014 6:25:56 PM, Wocambs wrote:
At 7/13/2014 9:12:39 PM, rross wrote:
At 7/13/2014 8:39:09 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
What would happen if Pinocchio said "my nose will grow now"?. If it grows, then that must mean that he was lying because his nose only grows when he is lying. However, if his nose grows then "my nose will grow now" is true and cannot be a lie (contradiction). If it doesn't grow, then he lied because "my nose will grow now" would be false. However, that is a contradiction too because if he lied then his nose must grow.

How can a prediction about the future be a lie? Nobody can know the future, so it can only be false rather than untruthful.

It could only be a lie if he said "i think my nose will grow" when he really thought no such thing. In which case, his nose will grow. Or he could say, "I don't think my nose will grow" when he secretly knew it would, and then it would grow too.

Nailed it. There's a difference between being a liar and being wrong, after all.

Yes, but if he is making the truth claim "my nose will grow", then that presupposes he knows the future. Since Pinocchio knows that he doesn't know the future, that statement is still a lie, as it presupposes something Pinocchio knows is not true (that he can know the future) ;)

How is it a lie to attempt to predict the future? You seem to be saying that it's a lie to say 'Watch out!'.
Rational_Thinker9119
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7/14/2014 8:53:54 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/14/2014 8:49:35 PM, Wocambs wrote:
At 7/14/2014 8:36:03 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 7/14/2014 6:25:56 PM, Wocambs wrote:
At 7/13/2014 9:12:39 PM, rross wrote:
At 7/13/2014 8:39:09 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
What would happen if Pinocchio said "my nose will grow now"?. If it grows, then that must mean that he was lying because his nose only grows when he is lying. However, if his nose grows then "my nose will grow now" is true and cannot be a lie (contradiction). If it doesn't grow, then he lied because "my nose will grow now" would be false. However, that is a contradiction too because if he lied then his nose must grow.

How can a prediction about the future be a lie? Nobody can know the future, so it can only be false rather than untruthful.

It could only be a lie if he said "i think my nose will grow" when he really thought no such thing. In which case, his nose will grow. Or he could say, "I don't think my nose will grow" when he secretly knew it would, and then it would grow too.

Nailed it. There's a difference between being a liar and being wrong, after all.

Yes, but if he is making the truth claim "my nose will grow", then that presupposes he knows the future. Since Pinocchio knows that he doesn't know the future, that statement is still a lie, as it presupposes something Pinocchio knows is not true (that he can know the future) ;)

How is it a lie to attempt to predict the future? You seem to be saying that it's a lie to say 'Watch out!'.

It is a lie because he isn't saying "I think this will happen", or "I predict this will happen". He is saying "this will happen". That is a knowledge claim. Since he knows that he can't know the future, then to make a knowledge claim about the future, knowing he can't know the future, is still a lie!
PeacefulChaos
Posts: 2,610
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7/14/2014 9:45:59 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/14/2014 8:33:09 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 7/14/2014 3:16:27 PM, PeacefulChaos wrote:
At 7/13/2014 8:39:09 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
What would happen if Pinocchio said "my nose will grow now"?. If it grows, then that must mean that he was lying because his nose only grows when he is lying. However, if his nose grows then "my nose will grow now" is true and cannot be a lie (contradiction). If it doesn't grow, then he lied because "my nose will grow now" would be false. However, that is a contradiction too because if he lied then his nose must grow.

Wouldn't it go something like this?

Pinocchio says "My nose will grow now." The key word is now (i.e. in that very moment). His nose will not grow in that very moment, and shortly afterwards will start growing, because he lied about his nose growing at that very moment.

There is no contradiction from this.

What if he said "my nose will grow right when I say now"?

Then we'd have to wait until he said the word "now." Until he said that word, nothing would happen, right? So when he says the word "now," his nose won't grow. That means he lied, because his nose didn't grow at the moment he said the word "now."

Afterwards, his nose would grow, because he lied.
Rational_Thinker9119
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7/14/2014 9:56:43 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/14/2014 9:45:59 PM, PeacefulChaos wrote:
At 7/14/2014 8:33:09 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 7/14/2014 3:16:27 PM, PeacefulChaos wrote:
At 7/13/2014 8:39:09 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
What would happen if Pinocchio said "my nose will grow now"?. If it grows, then that must mean that he was lying because his nose only grows when he is lying. However, if his nose grows then "my nose will grow now" is true and cannot be a lie (contradiction). If it doesn't grow, then he lied because "my nose will grow now" would be false. However, that is a contradiction too because if he lied then his nose must grow.

Wouldn't it go something like this?

Pinocchio says "My nose will grow now." The key word is now (i.e. in that very moment). His nose will not grow in that very moment, and shortly afterwards will start growing, because he lied about his nose growing at that very moment.

There is no contradiction from this.

What if he said "my nose will grow right when I say now"?

Then we'd have to wait until he said the word "now." Until he said that word, nothing would happen, right? So when he says the word "now," his nose won't grow. That means he lied, because his nose didn't grow at the moment he said the word "now."

Afterwards, his nose would grow, because he lied.

K, then he could say "my nose is growing right now because this is a lie" lol
Rational_Thinker9119
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7/14/2014 9:58:54 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/14/2014 9:45:59 PM, PeacefulChaos wrote:
At 7/14/2014 8:33:09 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 7/14/2014 3:16:27 PM, PeacefulChaos wrote:
At 7/13/2014 8:39:09 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
What would happen if Pinocchio said "my nose will grow now"?. If it grows, then that must mean that he was lying because his nose only grows when he is lying. However, if his nose grows then "my nose will grow now" is true and cannot be a lie (contradiction). If it doesn't grow, then he lied because "my nose will grow now" would be false. However, that is a contradiction too because if he lied then his nose must grow.

Wouldn't it go something like this?

Pinocchio says "My nose will grow now." The key word is now (i.e. in that very moment). His nose will not grow in that very moment, and shortly afterwards will start growing, because he lied about his nose growing at that very moment.

There is no contradiction from this.

What if he said "my nose will grow right when I say now"?

Then we'd have to wait until he said the word "now." Until he said that word, nothing would happen, right? So when he says the word "now," his nose won't grow. That means he lied, because his nose didn't grow at the moment he said the word "now."

Afterwards, his nose would grow, because he lied.

I suppose because his nose grows after he lies, then that makes sense.
PeacefulChaos
Posts: 2,610
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7/14/2014 9:59:22 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/14/2014 9:56:43 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 7/14/2014 9:45:59 PM, PeacefulChaos wrote:
At 7/14/2014 8:33:09 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 7/14/2014 3:16:27 PM, PeacefulChaos wrote:
At 7/13/2014 8:39:09 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
What would happen if Pinocchio said "my nose will grow now"?. If it grows, then that must mean that he was lying because his nose only grows when he is lying. However, if his nose grows then "my nose will grow now" is true and cannot be a lie (contradiction). If it doesn't grow, then he lied because "my nose will grow now" would be false. However, that is a contradiction too because if he lied then his nose must grow.

Wouldn't it go something like this?

Pinocchio says "My nose will grow now." The key word is now (i.e. in that very moment). His nose will not grow in that very moment, and shortly afterwards will start growing, because he lied about his nose growing at that very moment.

There is no contradiction from this.

What if he said "my nose will grow right when I say now"?

Then we'd have to wait until he said the word "now." Until he said that word, nothing would happen, right? So when he says the word "now," his nose won't grow. That means he lied, because his nose didn't grow at the moment he said the word "now."

Afterwards, his nose would grow, because he lied.

K, then he could say "my nose is growing right now because this is a lie" lol

That's different, b/c it has two parts. One will be affirmed and the other not, or vice versa, if his nose doesn't or does grow.

Pinocchio explodes and dies.