Total Posts:15|Showing Posts:1-15
Jump to topic:

Is an object the same object if...

LogicalLunatic
Posts: 1,633
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/27/2014 9:15:58 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
All parts are replaced?

For instance, let's say you have a chair. An old chair.
One of the legs breaks. So you replace that chair leg with a new one.
After you're done, you think about it and each leg of the chair except for the one that you just replaced looks weak, fragile, cracked. So, you replace every leg of the chair.
A month later, you're sitting on the chair and your butt falls through it. So, you replace the part that you sit on.
Then, just because you've already replaced all the other parts, you replace the part that you rest your back against.
Is it the same chair that it was before you started replacing parts?
A True Work of Art: http://www.debate.org...

Atheist Logic: http://www.debate.org...

Bulproof formally admits to being a troll (Post 16):
http://www.debate.org...
bladerunner060
Posts: 7,126
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/27/2014 9:27:28 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/27/2014 9:15:58 PM, LogicalLunatic wrote:
All parts are replaced?

For instance, let's say you have a chair. An old chair.
One of the legs breaks. So you replace that chair leg with a new one.
After you're done, you think about it and each leg of the chair except for the one that you just replaced looks weak, fragile, cracked. So, you replace every leg of the chair.
A month later, you're sitting on the chair and your butt falls through it. So, you replace the part that you sit on.
Then, just because you've already replaced all the other parts, you replace the part that you rest your back against.
Is it the same chair that it was before you started replacing parts?

http://en.wikipedia.org...
Assistant moderator to airmax1227. PM me with any questions or concerns!
LogicalLunatic
Posts: 1,633
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/27/2014 9:28:54 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/27/2014 9:27:28 PM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 8/27/2014 9:15:58 PM, LogicalLunatic wrote:
All parts are replaced?

For instance, let's say you have a chair. An old chair.
One of the legs breaks. So you replace that chair leg with a new one.
After you're done, you think about it and each leg of the chair except for the one that you just replaced looks weak, fragile, cracked. So, you replace every leg of the chair.
A month later, you're sitting on the chair and your butt falls through it. So, you replace the part that you sit on.
Then, just because you've already replaced all the other parts, you replace the part that you rest your back against.
Is it the same chair that it was before you started replacing parts?

http://en.wikipedia.org...

Crap. Original discussion is nearly impossible.
A True Work of Art: http://www.debate.org...

Atheist Logic: http://www.debate.org...

Bulproof formally admits to being a troll (Post 16):
http://www.debate.org...
lannan13
Posts: 23,102
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/27/2014 9:54:53 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
I would ecentially say that you have a new chair.
-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-Lannan13'S SIGNATURE-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-

If the sky's the limit then why do we have footprints on the Moon? I'm shooting my aspirations for the stars.

"If you are going through hell, keep going." "Sir Winston Churchill

"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." "Eleanor Roosevelt

Topics I want to debate. (http://tinyurl.com...)
-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/27/2014 10:08:55 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
It all depends on how you are defining the object. If you define the chair specifically as the tool for sitting that is in space X, and you change all the part, if it remains in space X; it is still the same object by definition. If you define it as the chair as an object with certain particular parts, and you change them, then it isn't the same object.

It boils down to semantics.
Dazz
Posts: 1,163
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/28/2014 2:54:35 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/27/2014 10:08:55 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
It all depends on how you are defining the object. If you define the chair specifically as the tool for sitting that is in space X, and you change all the part, if it remains in space X; it is still the same object by definition. If you define it as the chair as an object with certain particular parts, and you change them, then it isn't the same object.

It boils down to semantics.

What if someone replace totally, Honda (parts) with Mercedes (parts) from your Garage (space X), it won't be as same as you defined. The "Object" itself contains the definition to specify both, its Space as well as its particular Parts.
Remove the "I want", remainder is the "peace". ~Al-Ghazali~
"This time will also pass", a dose to cure both; the excitement & the grievance. ~Ayaz~
Otokage
Posts: 2,352
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/28/2014 10:41:10 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/27/2014 9:15:58 PM, LogicalLunatic wrote:
All parts are replaced?

For instance, let's say you have a chair. An old chair.
One of the legs breaks. So you replace that chair leg with a new one.
After you're done, you think about it and each leg of the chair except for the one that you just replaced looks weak, fragile, cracked. So, you replace every leg of the chair.
A month later, you're sitting on the chair and your butt falls through it. So, you replace the part that you sit on.
Then, just because you've already replaced all the other parts, you replace the part that you rest your back against.
Is it the same chair that it was before you started replacing parts?

It's still a chair, but obviously not the same chair, you have replaced it.
Blade-of-Truth
Posts: 5,036
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/30/2014 11:03:53 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/27/2014 9:15:58 PM, LogicalLunatic wrote:
All parts are replaced?

For instance, let's say you have a chair. An old chair.
One of the legs breaks. So you replace that chair leg with a new one.
After you're done, you think about it and each leg of the chair except for the one that you just replaced looks weak, fragile, cracked. So, you replace every leg of the chair.
A month later, you're sitting on the chair and your butt falls through it. So, you replace the part that you sit on.
Then, just because you've already replaced all the other parts, you replace the part that you rest your back against.
Is it the same chair that it was before you started replacing parts?

I'd say its essence stays the same - that is to say, it was a chair and still remains a chair. The question arises though if it is the same chair. I'd have to say no, based solely on the fact that to say it is the same chair would mean it is of the same parts. Can we place an image of the chair with it's old legs next to a picture of the chair with it's new legs and say they are the same image? No, we cannot. Hence, while it is still a chair, it is not the same chair.
Debate.org Deputy Vote Moderator
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
DDO Voting Guide: http://www.debate.org...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Need a judge on your debate? Nominate me! http://www.debate.org...
apb4y
Posts: 480
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/31/2014 6:58:20 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/27/2014 9:15:58 PM, LogicalLunatic wrote:
All parts are replaced?

For instance, let's say you have a chair. An old chair.
One of the legs breaks. So you replace that chair leg with a new one.
After you're done, you think about it and each leg of the chair except for the one that you just replaced looks weak, fragile, cracked. So, you replace every leg of the chair.
A month later, you're sitting on the chair and your butt falls through it. So, you replace the part that you sit on.
Then, just because you've already replaced all the other parts, you replace the part that you rest your back against.
Is it the same chair that it was before you started replacing parts?

What objective test would you use to settle the matter?
LogicalLunatic
Posts: 1,633
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/31/2014 7:02:02 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/31/2014 6:58:20 PM, apb4y wrote:
At 8/27/2014 9:15:58 PM, LogicalLunatic wrote:
All parts are replaced?

For instance, let's say you have a chair. An old chair.
One of the legs breaks. So you replace that chair leg with a new one.
After you're done, you think about it and each leg of the chair except for the one that you just replaced looks weak, fragile, cracked. So, you replace every leg of the chair.
A month later, you're sitting on the chair and your butt falls through it. So, you replace the part that you sit on.
Then, just because you've already replaced all the other parts, you replace the part that you rest your back against.
Is it the same chair that it was before you started replacing parts?

What objective test would you use to settle the matter?

I don't know; I'm asking you.
A True Work of Art: http://www.debate.org...

Atheist Logic: http://www.debate.org...

Bulproof formally admits to being a troll (Post 16):
http://www.debate.org...
apb4y
Posts: 480
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/31/2014 11:39:51 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/31/2014 7:02:02 PM, LogicalLunatic wrote:
At 8/31/2014 6:58:20 PM, apb4y wrote:
At 8/27/2014 9:15:58 PM, LogicalLunatic wrote:
All parts are replaced?

For instance, let's say you have a chair. An old chair.
One of the legs breaks. So you replace that chair leg with a new one.
After you're done, you think about it and each leg of the chair except for the one that you just replaced looks weak, fragile, cracked. So, you replace every leg of the chair.
A month later, you're sitting on the chair and your butt falls through it. So, you replace the part that you sit on.
Then, just because you've already replaced all the other parts, you replace the part that you rest your back against.
Is it the same chair that it was before you started replacing parts?

What objective test would you use to settle the matter?

I don't know; I'm asking you.

Answer: there isn't one. Therefore the debate is moot and we should all do something else with our time.
SamStevens
Posts: 3,819
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/31/2014 11:53:29 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
It would not be the same object. You replaced the entire chair. If you put the original pieces to the side, after you were done replacing every single piece, you can build two chairs. They are two different chairs.
"This is the true horror of religion. It allows perfectly decent and sane people to believe by the billions, what only lunatics could believe on their own." Sam Harris
Life asked Death "Why do people love me but hate you?"
Death responded: "Because you are a beautiful lie, and I am the painful truth."
Sidewalker
Posts: 3,713
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/2/2014 3:31:53 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/31/2014 11:53:29 PM, SamStevens wrote:
It would not be the same object. You replaced the entire chair. If you put the original pieces to the side, after you were done replacing every single piece, you can build two chairs. They are two different chairs.

Between 98% and 99% of the atoms in your body are exchanged every year, and over five years they all change, not a single atom in your body was there five years ago.

The question becomes, are you and person you were five years ago two different people?
"It is one of the commonest of mistakes to consider that the limit of our power of perception is also the limit of all there is to perceive." " C. W. Leadbeater
neptune1bond
Posts: 400
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/2/2014 5:38:28 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/27/2014 9:15:58 PM, LogicalLunatic wrote:
All parts are replaced?

For instance, let's say you have a chair. An old chair.
One of the legs breaks. So you replace that chair leg with a new one.
After you're done, you think about it and each leg of the chair except for the one that you just replaced looks weak, fragile, cracked. So, you replace every leg of the chair.
A month later, you're sitting on the chair and your butt falls through it. So, you replace the part that you sit on.
Then, just because you've already replaced all the other parts, you replace the part that you rest your back against.
Is it the same chair that it was before you started replacing parts?

My answer is that it depends. It depends on who is speaking and the particular concept that they are trying to convey. For instance, if someone asks,"is this the SAME EXACT chair that it was when I began?" Then the answer would be no, it is not. Since it has changed, even in the slightest way, then there is no way to say it is EXACTLY the same. This same idea applies if I were to ask if I was the SAME EXACT person I was when I was five. The obvious answer is, of course, still no.

On the other hand, if someone had a chair in their kitchen that they always placed at the head of their table towards the front of the house and they happened to replace every part of the chair but asked,"is that still the chair that sits at the head of my table towards the front of my house?" Then the answer would be yes. Also, if someone asked if I was still neptune1bond today, then the answer would be yes.

So, in other words, all objects and things are subject to change over time and in that sense nothing is exactly the same as it was if you go back far enough in time and will not be exactly the same as it currently is if you go far enough into the future. Nonetheless, even when something has all of its parts replaced over time, it's IDENTITY can still remain the same (or, possibly, its identity in reference to the observer). So, if over the course of time a man replaced all the parts of his Mercedes, it is still *his* Mercedes and its identity can remain the same in that sense. Even though all my cells in my body are replaced over time, I am still *me* or, in other words, I still have the same identity even though all my parts have been replaced. In this sense, the object or person only becomes something else when its actual identity has changed or the factors used to identify it/them have changed (If you replace the man's Mercedes with a Lamborghini, it is still *his car* and therefor retains the same identity in that sense, but the Lamborghini is no longer *his Mercedes*, and therefor the identity has changed in that sense. So the answer on whether or not it is the same depends on how you identify the object).

So, when you ask a generic version of the question "is it still the same?", then the only answer I can give without making assumptions to your meaning is,"it depends."
neptune1bond
Posts: 400
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/2/2014 5:41:20 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/27/2014 9:15:58 PM, LogicalLunatic wrote:
All parts are replaced?

For instance, let's say you have a chair. An old chair.
One of the legs breaks. So you replace that chair leg with a new one.
After you're done, you think about it and each leg of the chair except for the one that you just replaced looks weak, fragile, cracked. So, you replace every leg of the chair.
A month later, you're sitting on the chair and your butt falls through it. So, you replace the part that you sit on.
Then, just because you've already replaced all the other parts, you replace the part that you rest your back against.
Is it the same chair that it was before you started replacing parts?

My answer is that it depends. It depends on who is speaking and the particular concept that they are trying to convey. For instance, if someone asks,"is this the SAME EXACT chair that it was when I began?" Then the answer would be no, it is not. Since it has changed, even in the slightest way, then there is no way to say it is EXACTLY the same. This same idea applies if I were to ask if I was the SAME EXACT person I was when I was five. The obvious answer is, of course, still no.

On the other hand, if someone had a chair in their kitchen that they always placed at the head of their table towards the front of the house and they happened to replace every part of the chair but asked,"is that still the chair that sits at the head of my table towards the front of my house?" Then the answer would be yes. Also, if someone asked if I was still neptune1bond today, then the answer would be yes.

So, in other words, all objects and things are subject to change over time and in that sense nothing is exactly the same as it was if you go back far enough in time and will not be exactly the same as it currently is if you go far enough into the future. Nonetheless, even when something has all of its parts replaced over time, it's IDENTITY can still remain the same (or, possibly, its identity in reference to the observer). So, if over the course of time a man replaced all the parts of his Mercedes, it is still *his* Mercedes and its identity can remain the same in that sense. Even though all my cells in my body are replaced over time, I am still *me* or, in other words, I still have the same identity even though all my parts have been replaced. In this sense, the object or person only becomes something else when its actual identity has changed or the factors used to identify that things have changed (If you replace the man's Mercedes with a Lamborghini, it is still *his car* and therefor retains the same identity in that sense, but the Lamborghini is no longer *his Mercedes*, and therefor the identity has changed in that sense. So the answer on whether or not it is the same depends on how you identify the object).

So, when you ask a generic version of the question "is it still the same?", then the only answer I can give is,"it depends on what you mean."