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What All Cannot Be Doubted Logically?

Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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9/7/2014 11:04:37 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Doubt cannot be doubted logically because to doubt necessarily entails doubt exists. The mind cannot be doubted either in this way, as doubt is a mental state and proves the mind exists. Ergo, doubt proves that a mind must exist. Existence cannot be doubted logically, because doubt would have to exist for that to occur. So we have "doubt", "mind", and "existence".

Is there anything else that cannot be doubted logically in a similar fashion?
dylancatlow
Posts: 12,244
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9/7/2014 11:19:41 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/7/2014 11:15:58 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 9/7/2014 11:11:48 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
Logic cannot be doubted logically.

Lol I should have thought of that.

Also, anything which follows logically cannot be doubted. This is true because "to doubt" implies that it is possible for something not to be the case. Since logic defines what is "possible", doubting logic amounts to denying logic, and denying logic amounts to asserting that truth - the standard - isn't true.
dylancatlow
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9/7/2014 11:21:01 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/7/2014 11:18:23 PM, FREEDO wrote:
You can obviously doubt anything, I think.

You never miss the opportunity to make such jokes, do you?
Rational_Thinker9119
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9/7/2014 11:23:07 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/7/2014 11:18:23 PM, FREEDO wrote:
You can obviously doubt anything, I think.

You can think a perfectly spherical cube exists as well, that doesn't mean it is logical to do so. We are talking about things that cannot be doubted as far as being consistent with logic and reason is concerned.
FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
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9/7/2014 11:23:27 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/7/2014 11:21:01 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 9/7/2014 11:18:23 PM, FREEDO wrote:
You can obviously doubt anything, I think.

You never miss the opportunity to make such jokes, do you?

I can't help it. I'm oblivious to where my opinions start and my jokes end.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
dylancatlow
Posts: 12,244
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9/7/2014 11:24:58 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/7/2014 11:23:27 PM, FREEDO wrote:
At 9/7/2014 11:21:01 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 9/7/2014 11:18:23 PM, FREEDO wrote:
You can obviously doubt anything, I think.

You never miss the opportunity to make such jokes, do you?

I can't help it. I'm oblivious to where my opinions start and my jokes end.

That's why we love you. <3
FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
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9/7/2014 11:33:52 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/7/2014 11:20:03 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
In other words, it is true that truth is true according to the definition of "truth".

But who here can claim to know the Truth?

The definition of truth has evolved through time.

And logic is merely a tendency of skeptical tradition that acts as the engine of this organism. And, keeping in that tradition, we should recognize that logic itself is more of a vague concept than we have strictly understood it in the past.

Nothing can truly be cut up and categorized without applying abstract characteristics that don't exist outside of our psychological constructions. When everything is mechanized, errors arise and contradictions occur. The world appears strange--like always.

Vagueness can delve deeper into Truth than dogma. And the Strangeness can bare it's true face.

If logic must be logical because logic says it is logical, isn't that circular reasoning; isn't that illogical?

The answer is both yes and no.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
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9/7/2014 11:40:16 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/7/2014 11:23:07 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 9/7/2014 11:18:23 PM, FREEDO wrote:
You can obviously doubt anything, I think.

You can think a perfectly spherical cube exists as well, that doesn't mean it is logical to do so. We are talking about things that cannot be doubted as far as being consistent with logic and reason is concerned.

But has anyone even bothered to ask him what he even thinks about this?

Well, don't hesitate to ask, here he is: http://www.debate.org...
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
dylancatlow
Posts: 12,244
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9/7/2014 11:50:57 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/7/2014 11:33:52 PM, FREEDO wrote:
At 9/7/2014 11:20:03 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
In other words, it is true that truth is true according to the definition of "truth".

But who here can claim to know the Truth?

The definition of truth has evolved through time.

The definition truth is simple: that which you claim my statement lacks when I say "truth has definite meaning".


And logic is merely a tendency of skeptical tradition that acts as the engine of this organism. And, keeping in that tradition, we should recognize that logic itself is more of a vague concept than we have strictly understood it in the past.

Nothing can truly be cut up and categorized without applying abstract characteristics that don't exist outside of our psychological constructions. When everything is mechanized, errors arise and contradictions occur. The world appears strange--like always.

Vagueness can delve deeper into Truth than dogma. And the Strangeness can bare it's true face.


If logic must be logical because logic says it is logical, isn't that circular reasoning; isn't that illogical?

The answer is both yes and no.

Yes, but circular reasoning is logically justified if the premises must hold logically. In this case, they do by definition.
dylancatlow
Posts: 12,244
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9/7/2014 11:54:13 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
CTMU: "Because circular arguments are self-justifying and resistant to falsification, it is frequently assumed that tautology and circular reasoning are absolute theoretical evils. But this is far from the case, for logic and mathematics are almost completely based on circularity. Truth and logical tautology, recursion and iteration, algebraic and topological closure"all involve it to some degree. The problems arise only when circular reasoning is employed without the assurance of full mathematical generality, incorporating false claims of universality on (what may be) non-universal premises."
FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
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9/8/2014 12:01:20 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/7/2014 11:50:57 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
Yes, but circular reasoning is logically justified if the premises must hold logically. In this case, they do by definition.

So, allow me not to put words in your mouth.

You are saying that logic must be logical because logic says logic is logical, which is illogical, but that's ok because the one time logic doesn't have to be logic is when it has to not be logical in order to be logical, am I reading you correctly?
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
dylancatlow
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9/8/2014 12:04:21 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/8/2014 12:01:20 AM, FREEDO wrote:
At 9/7/2014 11:50:57 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
Yes, but circular reasoning is logically justified if the premises must hold logically. In this case, they do by definition.

So, allow me not to put words in your mouth.

You are saying that logic must be logical because logic says logic is logical, which is illogical, but that's ok because the one time logic doesn't have to be logic is when it has to not be logical in order to be logical, am I reading you correctly?

No, I didn't mean to say that circular reasoning is illogical. The "yes" was only in reference to your assertion that it is circular.
FREEDO
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9/8/2014 12:14:54 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/8/2014 12:04:21 AM, dylancatlow wrote:
No, I didn't mean to say that circular reasoning is illogical. The "yes" was only in reference to your assertion that it is circular.

Circular reasoning is not illogical?
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
dylancatlow
Posts: 12,244
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9/8/2014 12:16:09 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/8/2014 12:14:54 AM, FREEDO wrote:
At 9/8/2014 12:04:21 AM, dylancatlow wrote:
No, I didn't mean to say that circular reasoning is illogical. The "yes" was only in reference to your assertion that it is circular.

Circular reasoning is not illogical?

Not inherently, no.
FREEDO
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9/8/2014 12:45:10 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/8/2014 12:16:09 AM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 9/8/2014 12:14:54 AM, FREEDO wrote:
At 9/8/2014 12:04:21 AM, dylancatlow wrote:
No, I didn't mean to say that circular reasoning is illogical. The "yes" was only in reference to your assertion that it is circular.

Circular reasoning is not illogical?

Not inherently, no.

Definition: Circular reasoning (also known as paradoxical thinking or circular logic) is a logical fallacy in which the reasoner begins with what they are trying to end with.

Making a circular argument is illogical.

However, it is true that the point advanced by the argument may still be true, even though an improper argument was used.

So you should be able to support logic with a different argument that is not circular.

It's impossible to do this without being vague rather than precise.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
FREEDO
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9/8/2014 12:48:52 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/8/2014 12:47:31 AM, FREEDO wrote:
Reality is a hard candy with a gummy exterior.

Or the gummy part is on the inside and the outside is hard, I'm not sure.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
dylancatlow
Posts: 12,244
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9/8/2014 12:55:35 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/8/2014 12:45:10 AM, FREEDO wrote:
At 9/8/2014 12:16:09 AM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 9/8/2014 12:14:54 AM, FREEDO wrote:
At 9/8/2014 12:04:21 AM, dylancatlow wrote:
No, I didn't mean to say that circular reasoning is illogical. The "yes" was only in reference to your assertion that it is circular.

Circular reasoning is not illogical?

Not inherently, no.

Definition: Circular reasoning (also known as paradoxical thinking or circular logic) is a logical fallacy in which the reasoner begins with what they are trying to end with.

If "what the reasoner begins with" is necessarily true, then any conclusion which logically follows is also necessarily true. In other words, we don't need to qualify the circularity in question by saying "within the context of truth", since that is already implied.
FREEDO
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9/8/2014 1:11:26 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/8/2014 12:55:35 AM, dylancatlow wrote:
If "what the reasoner begins with" is necessarily true, then any conclusion which logically follows is also necessarily true. In other words, we don't need to qualify the circularity in question by saying "within the context of truth", since that is already implied.

And what legendary sword did you pull from the Earth to attain these powers?

What being came out of the sky and delivered the Truth to you on a slab of gold?

What psychic unicorn sang you the tune of the universe?

As I said, yes, the premise can still be true even though the argument is bad. But that still leaves you at square one because you still don't know whether the premise is true. It needs to be confirmed another way.

However, there is no way you can present to me which I shall not shred into a million tiny pathetic pieces, which then are each shred into a million more, and those into yet another million, and so on and so on and so on--turtles all the way down--until the fabric of reality itself is ripped out from under you and replaced with a nice clean layer of buttery paste.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
zmikecuber
Posts: 4,081
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9/8/2014 8:40:15 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/7/2014 11:04:37 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Doubt cannot be doubted logically because to doubt necessarily entails doubt exists. The mind cannot be doubted either in this way, as doubt is a mental state and proves the mind exists. Ergo, doubt proves that a mind must exist. Existence cannot be doubted logically, because doubt would have to exist for that to occur. So we have "doubt", "mind", and "existence".

Is there anything else that cannot be doubted logically in a similar fashion?

The self
The validity of logical arguments
The existence of objective truth
The existence of our senses
"Delete your fvcking sig" -1hard

"primal man had the habit, when he came into contact with fire, of satisfying the infantile desire connected with it, by putting it out with a stream of his urine... Putting out the fire by micturating was therefore a kind of sexual act with a male, an enjoyment of sexual potency in a homosexual competition."
crazedAtheist
Posts: 39
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9/10/2014 1:20:39 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
if by 'doubt' you mean to critically analyze with an attempt to find defect and 'logically' you mean, 'with the use of logic' then even doubt and logic itself may be doubted logically. there is nothing about logic or doubt that prevent logical critical analysis of them.
Wocambs
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9/11/2014 12:22:39 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/7/2014 11:11:48 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
Logic cannot be doubted logically.

Aren't you assuming there is such a thing as logic, though?
dylancatlow
Posts: 12,244
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9/11/2014 12:28:13 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/11/2014 12:22:39 PM, Wocambs wrote:
At 9/7/2014 11:11:48 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
Logic cannot be doubted logically.

Aren't you assuming there is such a thing as logic, though?

Yes. But this assumption is logically justified. In order for there not to be logic, there must be logic to make this so.
Wocambs
Posts: 1,505
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9/11/2014 12:34:08 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/11/2014 12:28:13 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 9/11/2014 12:22:39 PM, Wocambs wrote:
At 9/7/2014 11:11:48 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
Logic cannot be doubted logically.

Aren't you assuming there is such a thing as logic, though?

Yes. But this assumption is logically justified. In order for there not to be logic, there must be logic to make this so.

In order for there to be no normativity for though, there must be normativity for thought?
dylancatlow
Posts: 12,244
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9/11/2014 12:37:59 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/11/2014 12:34:08 PM, Wocambs wrote:
At 9/11/2014 12:28:13 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 9/11/2014 12:22:39 PM, Wocambs wrote:
At 9/7/2014 11:11:48 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
Logic cannot be doubted logically.

Aren't you assuming there is such a thing as logic, though?

Yes. But this assumption is logically justified. In order for there not to be logic, there must be logic to make this so.

In order for there to be no normativity for though, there must be normativity for thought?

Yes.