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Panpsychism and the Big Bang

Envisage
Posts: 3,646
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9/26/2014 2:48:43 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
I just finished my conversation with zmike and thought I would share.

Panpsychism is the view that consciousness is fundemental, and increasingly complex information processes lead to increasingly conscious systems (so you go from a photon, to an atom, to a molecule, to a bacteria, mouse, human brain).

This has the collary that everything is conscious, to an extent, including my Sunday dinner. And hence, the whole universe itself, possesses a consciousness.

However... The speed of light limits consciousness on a universal scale, and hence the universe would not be conscious in the manner in which we are (since the distances are so vast, and information is limited by the speed if light), however at the earliest points of inflation, would that mean the universe was highly intelligent? And once inflation kicked in, the universe because progressively stupider... As the distances grew ...
apb4y
Posts: 480
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9/26/2014 6:37:23 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/26/2014 2:48:43 PM, Envisage wrote:
I just finished my conversation with zmike and thought I would share.

Panpsychism is the view that consciousness is fundemental, and increasingly complex information processes lead to increasingly conscious systems (so you go from a photon, to an atom, to a molecule, to a bacteria, mouse, human brain).

This has the collary that everything is conscious, to an extent, including my Sunday dinner. And hence, the whole universe itself, possesses a consciousness.

However... The speed of light limits consciousness on a universal scale, and hence the universe would not be conscious in the manner in which we are (since the distances are so vast, and information is limited by the speed if light), however at the earliest points of inflation, would that mean the universe was highly intelligent? And once inflation kicked in, the universe because progressively stupider... As the distances grew ...

Answer to everything you've supposed here:

No.
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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9/26/2014 10:39:43 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/26/2014 2:48:43 PM, Envisage wrote:
I just finished my conversation with zmike and thought I would share.

Panpsychism is the view that consciousness is fundemental, and increasingly complex information processes lead to increasingly conscious systems (so you go from a photon, to an atom, to a molecule, to a bacteria, mouse, human brain).

This has the collary that everything is conscious, to an extent, including my Sunday dinner. And hence, the whole universe itself, possesses a consciousness.

However... The speed of light limits consciousness on a universal scale, and hence the universe would not be conscious in the manner in which we are (since the distances are so vast, and information is limited by the speed if light), however at the earliest points of inflation, would that mean the universe was highly intelligent? And once inflation kicked in, the universe because progressively stupider... As the distances grew ...

I don't see how any of this follows.... Why would it be the case that because the speed of light limits consciousness that the universe isn't conscious like we are? Why would the initial state be more intelligent than the universe now just because time progressed?

Either way, Panpsychism is a flawed view of reality. Idealism makes much more sense...
Envisage
Posts: 3,646
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9/26/2014 10:47:17 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/26/2014 10:39:43 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 9/26/2014 2:48:43 PM, Envisage wrote:
I just finished my conversation with zmike and thought I would share.

Panpsychism is the view that consciousness is fundemental, and increasingly complex information processes lead to increasingly conscious systems (so you go from a photon, to an atom, to a molecule, to a bacteria, mouse, human brain).

This has the collary that everything is conscious, to an extent, including my Sunday dinner. And hence, the whole universe itself, possesses a consciousness.

However... The speed of light limits consciousness on a universal scale, and hence the universe would not be conscious in the manner in which we are (since the distances are so vast, and information is limited by the speed if light), however at the earliest points of inflation, would that mean the universe was highly intelligent? And once inflation kicked in, the universe because progressively stupider... As the distances grew ...

I don't see how any of this follows.... Why would it be the case that because the speed of light limits consciousness that the universe isn't conscious like we are? Why would the initial state be more intelligent than the universe now just because time progressed?

Because in the initial state, all the stuff of the universe was close enough to each other they it could all interact in informational processes, although I quickly accept that such an informational process being 'complex' is dubious.

As the universe inflated, we now have 'islands' of 'informational processes' which do interact quickly, which are separated from other islands (such as with galaxies), and the islands only interact with each other slowly after the universe inflated (because it takes time for information to travel).

Either way, Panpsychism is a flawed view of reality. Idealism makes much more sense...

I don't really care even if that is true, it's irrelevant to this topic, there are like 10 other 'Idealism is true' topics active in this forum for that discussion... Most instigated by yourself. In any case I don't advocate for panpsychism, but I am reading about it.
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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9/26/2014 11:08:36 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/26/2014 10:47:17 PM, Envisage wrote:
At 9/26/2014 10:39:43 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 9/26/2014 2:48:43 PM, Envisage wrote:
I just finished my conversation with zmike and thought I would share.

Panpsychism is the view that consciousness is fundemental, and increasingly complex information processes lead to increasingly conscious systems (so you go from a photon, to an atom, to a molecule, to a bacteria, mouse, human brain).

This has the collary that everything is conscious, to an extent, including my Sunday dinner. And hence, the whole universe itself, possesses a consciousness.

However... The speed of light limits consciousness on a universal scale, and hence the universe would not be conscious in the manner in which we are (since the distances are so vast, and information is limited by the speed if light), however at the earliest points of inflation, would that mean the universe was highly intelligent? And once inflation kicked in, the universe because progressively stupider... As the distances grew ...

I don't see how any of this follows.... Why would it be the case that because the speed of light limits consciousness that the universe isn't conscious like we are? Why would the initial state be more intelligent than the universe now just because time progressed?

Because in the initial state, all the stuff of the universe was close enough to each other they it could all interact in informational processes, although I quickly accept that such an informational process being 'complex' is dubious.

What if space is an illusion, which we now have good scientific reasons to believe? (Check video I posted)


As the universe inflated, we now have 'islands' of 'informational processes' which do interact quickly, which are separated from other islands (such as with galaxies), and the islands only interact with each other slowly after the universe inflated (because it takes time for information to travel).

Maybe on the surface, but at a more fundamental level quantum mechanics holds; everything is entangled and information travel is instantaneous. Again, watch the video.


Either way, Panpsychism is a flawed view of reality. Idealism makes much more sense...

I don't really care even if that is true, it's irrelevant to this topic, there are like 10 other 'Idealism is true' topics active in this forum for that discussion... Most instigated by yourself. In any case I don't advocate for panpsychism, but I am reading about it.

Panpsychism is good in the sense that Chalmer's Hard-Problem doesn't apply, while Physicalism and Materialism still has to deal with it.
dylancatlow
Posts: 12,255
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9/27/2014 2:23:48 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
I think the only sensible way of interpreting a "universal mind" requires it to have a global perspective in which the universe's true temporal identity is distributed over time. This would allow it to perceive everything as happening at once, and not moment by moment (which means the present moment would really just be an illusion).
Mhykiel
Posts: 5,987
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10/7/2014 11:05:26 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
I don't see how speed of light limits thought. Just becuase the exchange of information by light at long distances isa long time. Things at the speed of light experience time as if it is near frozen. Thought is through connections.

So i would think universal scale is equally valid as small scale
Juan_Pablo
Posts: 2,052
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10/7/2014 11:19:39 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/26/2014 2:48:43 PM, Envisage wrote:
I just finished my conversation with zmike and thought I would share.

Panpsychism is the view that consciousness is fundemental, and increasingly complex information processes lead to increasingly conscious systems (so you go from a photon, to an atom, to a molecule, to a bacteria, mouse, human brain).

This has the collary that everything is conscious, to an extent, including my Sunday dinner. And hence, the whole universe itself, possesses a consciousness.

However... The speed of light limits consciousness on a universal scale, and hence the universe would not be conscious in the manner in which we are (since the distances are so vast, and information is limited by the speed if light), however at the earliest points of inflation, would that mean the universe was highly intelligent? And once inflation kicked in, the universe because progressively stupider... As the distances grew.

Universal consciousness is an issue that some philosophers have been tackling for quite some time now.

Now you're right to assume that information traverses the universe at the speed of light, so if the universe is conscious (a belief I also share), the speed of light would certainly be a stumbling block for the speed at which it can digest information (figure things out); however, there is some vagueness here, because of though physicist claim that information has the speed limit of the speed of light, not all physical process are limited to this speed, just as particle entanglement, which has fascinated physicists for more than half-a-century. Particle entanglement supercedes the speed of light, and light itself is composed of a variety of waves that also seem to surpass the speed of light (though information isn't considered moving faster than light speed in these processes).

But I generally agree with you that if the universe is conscious, than it necessarily has a maximum learning speed--and that would be the speed of light.

(But the way, I also believe the universe is capable of losing memory, because overtime information becomes more distributed and less ordered [entropy]).

So the universe is capable of forgetting. (The entropy aspectl aslo indicates the universe ages and becomes less capable of creating complex structures--like bio-macromolecules, which are essential for life--over time.)
Juan_Pablo
Posts: 2,052
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10/7/2014 11:30:26 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Correction:

Universal consciousness is an issue that some philosophers have been tackling for quite some time now.

Now you're right to assume that information traverses the universe at the speed of light, so if the universe is conscious (a belief I also share), the speed of light would certainly be a stumbling block for the speed at which it can digest information (figure things out); however, there is some vagueness here, because even though physicists claim that the speed of light is the maximum speed at which information traverses the universe, not all physical processes are limited to this speed, such as the example of particle entanglement, which has fascinated physicists for more than half-a-century. Particle entanglement supercedes the speed of light, and light itself is composed of a variety of waves that also seem to surpass the speed of light (though information isn't considered moving faster than light speed in these processes).

But I generally agree with you that if the universe is conscious, than it necessarily has a maximum learning speed--and that would be the speed of light.

(But the way, I also believe the universe is capable of losing memory, because overtime information becomes more distributed and less ordered [entropy]).

So the universe is capable of forgetting. (The entropy aspect also indicates the universe ages and becomes less capable of creating complex structures--like bio-macromolecules, which are essential for life--over time.)