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Animal Suffering

SubterFugitive
Posts: 255
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10/5/2014 4:18:41 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
I was wondering whether anyone could support the notion that animals, save for the primates and humans, experience pain in a higher order state like persons do, that is, whether they experience pain such that it would be a moral issue for allowing them to have it.

This all relates to the problem of evil, and stems from the prior discussions:

https://www.youtube.com...
http://www.reasonablefaith.org...
https://www.youtube.com...
Chuz-Life
Posts: 1,788
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10/5/2014 4:51:35 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/5/2014 4:18:41 PM, SubterFugitive wrote:
I was wondering whether anyone could support the notion that animals, save for the primates and humans, experience pain in a higher order state like persons do, that is, whether they experience pain such that it would be a moral issue for allowing them to have it.

This all relates to the problem of evil, and stems from the prior discussions:

https://www.youtube.com...
http://www.reasonablefaith.org...
https://www.youtube.com...

I wish I had the time to focus and to explore this issue to its logical end. I am a hunter and I like to fish. I have put family pets down and I eat meat. I have been with several family members as they have passed away and regardless of my experiences with all of the above, I have always been perplexed by the notion that an ability to feel pain is somehow tied to morality.

Like I said, I like to hunt things and I like eating meat. My approach is to not let things (even people) suffer - if I can prevent it. But if I want or need to kill something like an animal or even another person (self defense). . . the thought that it or they might feel pain doesn't matter to me at all.

I can feel pain - but that wouldn't make a bear think twice before trying to eat me. Would it?
"Sooner or later, the Supreme Court of the Unites States is going to have explain how a 'child in the womb' is a person enough to be recognized as a MURDER victim under our fetal homicide laws but how they are not persons enough to qualify for any other Constitutional protections" ~ Chuz Life

http://www.debate.org...
Such
Posts: 1,110
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10/5/2014 4:55:42 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/5/2014 4:18:41 PM, SubterFugitive wrote:
I was wondering whether anyone could support the notion that animals, save for the primates and humans, experience pain in a higher order state like persons do, that is, whether they experience pain such that it would be a moral issue for allowing them to have it.

This all relates to the problem of evil, and stems from the prior discussions:

https://www.youtube.com...
http://www.reasonablefaith.org...
https://www.youtube.com...

What sort of support are you looking for? I don't understand. It's pretty obvious that animals, most animals, experience pain. Humans are clearly the "smartest" animals out there, but I primates in general are not. I'm pretty sure that dolphins exceed most primates and elephants are comparable, and they're some of the animals that experience the most pain by human hands.
Such
Posts: 1,110
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10/5/2014 4:58:39 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/5/2014 4:51:35 PM, Chuz-Life wrote:
At 10/5/2014 4:18:41 PM, SubterFugitive wrote:
I was wondering whether anyone could support the notion that animals, save for the primates and humans, experience pain in a higher order state like persons do, that is, whether they experience pain such that it would be a moral issue for allowing them to have it.

This all relates to the problem of evil, and stems from the prior discussions:

https://www.youtube.com...
http://www.reasonablefaith.org...
https://www.youtube.com...


I wish I had the time to focus and to explore this issue to its logical end. I am a hunter and I like to fish. I have put family pets down and I eat meat. I have been with several family members as they have passed away and regardless of my experiences with all of the above, I have always been perplexed by the notion that an ability to feel pain is somehow tied to morality.

Like I said, I like to hunt things and I like eating meat. My approach is to not let things (even people) suffer - if I can prevent it. But if I want or need to kill something like an animal or even another person (self defense). . . the thought that it or they might feel pain doesn't matter to me at all.

I can feel pain - but that wouldn't make a bear think twice before trying to eat me. Would it?

With our ability to conceive and contemplate morality comes our responsibility to preserve it.

Pain is tied to morality, because it's wrong to purposely inflict pain. If it's required for sustenance, that's one thing. If it's for sport, that's another.
Chuz-Life
Posts: 1,788
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10/5/2014 5:07:22 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/5/2014 4:58:39 PM, Such wrote:
At 10/5/2014 4:51:35 PM, Chuz-Life wrote:
At 10/5/2014 4:18:41 PM, SubterFugitive wrote:
I was wondering whether anyone could support the notion that animals, save for the primates and humans, experience pain in a higher order state like persons do, that is, whether they experience pain such that it would be a moral issue for allowing them to have it.

This all relates to the problem of evil, and stems from the prior discussions:

https://www.youtube.com...
http://www.reasonablefaith.org...
https://www.youtube.com...


I wish I had the time to focus and to explore this issue to its logical end. I am a hunter and I like to fish. I have put family pets down and I eat meat. I have been with several family members as they have passed away and regardless of my experiences with all of the above, I have always been perplexed by the notion that an ability to feel pain is somehow tied to morality.

Like I said, I like to hunt things and I like eating meat. My approach is to not let things (even people) suffer - if I can prevent it. But if I want or need to kill something like an animal or even another person (self defense). . . the thought that it or they might feel pain doesn't matter to me at all.

I can feel pain - but that wouldn't make a bear think twice before trying to eat me. Would it?

With our ability to conceive and contemplate morality comes our responsibility to preserve it.

Pain is tied to morality, because it's wrong to purposely inflict pain. If it's required for sustenance, that's one thing. If it's for sport, that's another.

I guess I'm just not very morality minded. I do oppose things like animal cruelty for other reasons though.
"Sooner or later, the Supreme Court of the Unites States is going to have explain how a 'child in the womb' is a person enough to be recognized as a MURDER victim under our fetal homicide laws but how they are not persons enough to qualify for any other Constitutional protections" ~ Chuz Life

http://www.debate.org...
Such
Posts: 1,110
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10/5/2014 5:09:12 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/5/2014 5:07:22 PM, Chuz-Life wrote:
At 10/5/2014 4:58:39 PM, Such wrote:
At 10/5/2014 4:51:35 PM, Chuz-Life wrote:
At 10/5/2014 4:18:41 PM, SubterFugitive wrote:
I was wondering whether anyone could support the notion that animals, save for the primates and humans, experience pain in a higher order state like persons do, that is, whether they experience pain such that it would be a moral issue for allowing them to have it.

This all relates to the problem of evil, and stems from the prior discussions:

https://www.youtube.com...
http://www.reasonablefaith.org...
https://www.youtube.com...


I wish I had the time to focus and to explore this issue to its logical end. I am a hunter and I like to fish. I have put family pets down and I eat meat. I have been with several family members as they have passed away and regardless of my experiences with all of the above, I have always been perplexed by the notion that an ability to feel pain is somehow tied to morality.

Like I said, I like to hunt things and I like eating meat. My approach is to not let things (even people) suffer - if I can prevent it. But if I want or need to kill something like an animal or even another person (self defense). . . the thought that it or they might feel pain doesn't matter to me at all.

I can feel pain - but that wouldn't make a bear think twice before trying to eat me. Would it?

With our ability to conceive and contemplate morality comes our responsibility to preserve it.

Pain is tied to morality, because it's wrong to purposely inflict pain. If it's required for sustenance, that's one thing. If it's for sport, that's another.

I guess I'm just not very morality minded. I do oppose things like animal cruelty for other reasons though.

Like what?
SubterFugitive
Posts: 255
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10/5/2014 5:27:57 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/5/2014 4:55:42 PM, Such wrote:
At 10/5/2014 4:18:41 PM, SubterFugitive wrote:
I was wondering whether anyone could support the notion that animals, save for the primates and humans, experience pain in a higher order state like persons do, that is, whether they experience pain such that it would be a moral issue for allowing them to have it.

This all relates to the problem of evil, and stems from the prior discussions:

https://www.youtube.com...
http://www.reasonablefaith.org...
https://www.youtube.com...

What sort of support are you looking for? I don't understand. It's pretty obvious that animals, most animals, experience pain. Humans are clearly the "smartest" animals out there, but I primates in general are not. I'm pretty sure that dolphins exceed most primates and elephants are comparable, and they're some of the animals that experience the most pain by human hands.

I agree that that most animals experience pain, what's conjectural, I think, is whether animals experience it in a way that we do, where it would become a moral issue. Say if you cause me to experience pain, you would be wrong. But if God allows a fawn in the woods to be burned to death, due to a natural fire, how is the animal's pain experienced such that it would call into question God's property of omnibenevolence?
Chuz-Life
Posts: 1,788
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10/5/2014 5:30:33 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/5/2014 5:09:12 PM, Such wrote:
At 10/5/2014 5:07:22 PM, Chuz-Life wrote:
At 10/5/2014 4:58:39 PM, Such wrote:
At 10/5/2014 4:51:35 PM, Chuz-Life wrote:
At 10/5/2014 4:18:41 PM, SubterFugitive wrote:
I was wondering whether anyone could support the notion that animals, save for the primates and humans, experience pain in a higher order state like persons do, that is, whether they experience pain such that it would be a moral issue for allowing them to have it.

This all relates to the problem of evil, and stems from the prior discussions:

https://www.youtube.com...
http://www.reasonablefaith.org...
https://www.youtube.com...


I wish I had the time to focus and to explore this issue to its logical end. I am a hunter and I like to fish. I have put family pets down and I eat meat. I have been with several family members as they have passed away and regardless of my experiences with all of the above, I have always been perplexed by the notion that an ability to feel pain is somehow tied to morality.

Like I said, I like to hunt things and I like eating meat. My approach is to not let things (even people) suffer - if I can prevent it. But if I want or need to kill something like an animal or even another person (self defense). . . the thought that it or they might feel pain doesn't matter to me at all.

I can feel pain - but that wouldn't make a bear think twice before trying to eat me. Would it?

With our ability to conceive and contemplate morality comes our responsibility to preserve it.

Pain is tied to morality, because it's wrong to purposely inflict pain. If it's required for sustenance, that's one thing. If it's for sport, that's another.

I guess I'm just not very morality minded. I do oppose things like animal cruelty for other reasons though.

Like what?

Empathy, I suppose. I just instinctively try to defend people and animals from abuse & neglect and things like that. But it's not because I'm affected by their ability to feel pain. It's more of an intolerance of those who think it's okay to do those things. That sense of entitlement or abuse of power infuriates me.
"Sooner or later, the Supreme Court of the Unites States is going to have explain how a 'child in the womb' is a person enough to be recognized as a MURDER victim under our fetal homicide laws but how they are not persons enough to qualify for any other Constitutional protections" ~ Chuz Life

http://www.debate.org...
apb4y
Posts: 480
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10/5/2014 5:49:44 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/5/2014 4:18:41 PM, SubterFugitive wrote:
I was wondering whether anyone could support the notion that animals, save for the primates and humans, experience pain in a higher order state like persons do, that is, whether they experience pain such that it would be a moral issue for allowing them to have it.

They feel pain. What more is there to discuss?
SubterFugitive
Posts: 255
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10/5/2014 5:54:45 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/5/2014 5:49:44 PM, apb4y wrote:
At 10/5/2014 4:18:41 PM, SubterFugitive wrote:
I was wondering whether anyone could support the notion that animals, save for the primates and humans, experience pain in a higher order state like persons do, that is, whether they experience pain such that it would be a moral issue for allowing them to have it.

They feel pain. What more is there to discuss?

Simply, whether they experience it like persons do, in a certain order awareness to where there is a moral dimension involved. That's what's more to discuss.
Raisor
Posts: 4,460
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10/5/2014 7:25:11 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/5/2014 4:18:41 PM, SubterFugitive wrote:
I was wondering whether anyone could support the notion that animals, save for the primates and humans, experience pain in a higher order state like persons do, that is, whether they experience pain such that it would be a moral issue for allowing them to have it.

This all relates to the problem of evil, and stems from the prior discussions:

https://www.youtube.com...
http://www.reasonablefaith.org...
https://www.youtube.com...

What does it mean to experience pain in a "higher order state?"

What is it about pain that makes it a moral issue?

Is causing pain always immoral?

^Relevant questions.
Raisor
Posts: 4,460
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10/5/2014 7:45:18 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/5/2014 7:29:10 PM, xXCryptoXx wrote:
suffering isn't necessarily immoral as modern philosophy would like you to believe

^Preach it.

Though Aquinas was for some animal welfare, and you don't need the premise that all suffering is evil to justify animal welfare.
xXCryptoXx
Posts: 5,000
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10/5/2014 7:49:58 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/5/2014 7:45:18 PM, Raisor wrote:
At 10/5/2014 7:29:10 PM, xXCryptoXx wrote:
suffering isn't necessarily immoral as modern philosophy would like you to believe

^Preach it.

Though Aquinas was for some animal welfare, and you don't need the premise that all suffering is evil to justify animal welfare.

What your opinion of Aquinas and how familiar are you with his philosophy? Just curious.
Nolite Timere
SubterFugitive
Posts: 255
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10/5/2014 7:54:10 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/5/2014 7:25:11 PM, Raisor wrote:
At 10/5/2014 4:18:41 PM, SubterFugitive wrote:
I was wondering whether anyone could support the notion that animals, save for the primates and humans, experience pain in a higher order state like persons do, that is, whether they experience pain such that it would be a moral issue for allowing them to have it.

This all relates to the problem of evil, and stems from the prior discussions:

https://www.youtube.com...
http://www.reasonablefaith.org...
https://www.youtube.com...

What does it mean to experience pain in a "higher order state?"

What is it about pain that makes it a moral issue?

Is causing pain always immoral?

^Relevant questions.

By [experience pain in a "higher order state?"], I just mean like us, as persons. Those entities with the capacity to experience that "I myself an in pain."

Pain need not always be a moral issue, but in regards to, say, animal rights, the problem of evil, etc I think that it sometimes becomes a moral issue. For instance, why would God allow the fawn to burn for 2 weeks to death if the fawn experiences pain as we do? ... This is often raised as a problem against the existence of an omnibenevolent God.
SubterFugitive
Posts: 255
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10/5/2014 7:54:57 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/5/2014 7:29:10 PM, xXCryptoXx wrote:
suffering isn't necessarily immoral as modern philosophy would like you to believe

How so? And in what way does modern philosophy lead us to believe it is?
Raisor
Posts: 4,460
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10/5/2014 7:55:55 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/5/2014 7:49:58 PM, xXCryptoXx wrote:
At 10/5/2014 7:45:18 PM, Raisor wrote:
At 10/5/2014 7:29:10 PM, xXCryptoXx wrote:
suffering isn't necessarily immoral as modern philosophy would like you to believe

^Preach it.

Though Aquinas was for some animal welfare, and you don't need the premise that all suffering is evil to justify animal welfare.

What your opinion of Aquinas and how familiar are you with his philosophy? Just curious.

Superficially familiar through high school theology which has faded in my memory and discussion of him by more contemporary authors.
Raisor
Posts: 4,460
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10/5/2014 7:59:11 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/5/2014 7:54:10 PM, SubterFugitive wrote:
At 10/5/2014 7:25:11 PM, Raisor wrote:
At 10/5/2014 4:18:41 PM, SubterFugitive wrote:
I was wondering whether anyone could support the notion that animals, save for the primates and humans, experience pain in a higher order state like persons do, that is, whether they experience pain such that it would be a moral issue for allowing them to have it.

This all relates to the problem of evil, and stems from the prior discussions:

https://www.youtube.com...
http://www.reasonablefaith.org...
https://www.youtube.com...

What does it mean to experience pain in a "higher order state?"

What is it about pain that makes it a moral issue?

Is causing pain always immoral?

^Relevant questions.

By [experience pain in a "higher order state?"], I just mean like us, as persons. Those entities with the capacity to experience that "I myself an in pain."

Pain need not always be a moral issue, but in regards to, say, animal rights, the problem of evil, etc I think that it sometimes becomes a moral issue. For instance, why would God allow the fawn to burn for 2 weeks to death if the fawn experiences pain as we do? ... This is often raised as a problem against the existence of an omnibenevolent God.

What would suggest that animals experience pain different than humans? The biology of our pain is identical, animals respond the same as humans both physiologically and psychologically, abused animals develop behavioral disorders just as people do.

What difference between animals and humans would make our suffering different?
SubterFugitive
Posts: 255
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10/5/2014 8:08:51 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/5/2014 7:59:11 PM, Raisor wrote:
At 10/5/2014 7:54:10 PM, SubterFugitive wrote:
At 10/5/2014 7:25:11 PM, Raisor wrote:
At 10/5/2014 4:18:41 PM, SubterFugitive wrote:
I was wondering whether anyone could support the notion that animals, save for the primates and humans, experience pain in a higher order state like persons do, that is, whether they experience pain such that it would be a moral issue for allowing them to have it.

This all relates to the problem of evil, and stems from the prior discussions:

https://www.youtube.com...
http://www.reasonablefaith.org...
https://www.youtube.com...

What does it mean to experience pain in a "higher order state?"

What is it about pain that makes it a moral issue?

Is causing pain always immoral?

^Relevant questions.

By [experience pain in a "higher order state?"], I just mean like us, as persons. Those entities with the capacity to experience that "I myself an in pain."

Pain need not always be a moral issue, but in regards to, say, animal rights, the problem of evil, etc I think that it sometimes becomes a moral issue. For instance, why would God allow the fawn to burn for 2 weeks to death if the fawn experiences pain as we do? ... This is often raised as a problem against the existence of an omnibenevolent God.

What would suggest that animals experience pain different than humans? The biology of our pain is identical, animals respond the same as humans both physiologically and psychologically, abused animals develop behavioral disorders just as people do.

What difference between animals and humans would make our suffering different?

Are you saying that human awareness and animal awareness is identical?
Raisor
Posts: 4,460
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10/5/2014 8:14:19 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/5/2014 8:08:51 PM, SubterFugitive wrote:
At 10/5/2014 7:59:11 PM, Raisor wrote:
At 10/5/2014 7:54:10 PM, SubterFugitive wrote:
At 10/5/2014 7:25:11 PM, Raisor wrote:
At 10/5/2014 4:18:41 PM, SubterFugitive wrote:
I was wondering whether anyone could support the notion that animals, save for the primates and humans, experience pain in a higher order state like persons do, that is, whether they experience pain such that it would be a moral issue for allowing them to have it.

This all relates to the problem of evil, and stems from the prior discussions:

https://www.youtube.com...
http://www.reasonablefaith.org...
https://www.youtube.com...

What does it mean to experience pain in a "higher order state?"

What is it about pain that makes it a moral issue?

Is causing pain always immoral?

^Relevant questions.

By [experience pain in a "higher order state?"], I just mean like us, as persons. Those entities with the capacity to experience that "I myself an in pain."

Pain need not always be a moral issue, but in regards to, say, animal rights, the problem of evil, etc I think that it sometimes becomes a moral issue. For instance, why would God allow the fawn to burn for 2 weeks to death if the fawn experiences pain as we do? ... This is often raised as a problem against the existence of an omnibenevolent God.

What would suggest that animals experience pain different than humans? The biology of our pain is identical, animals respond the same as humans both physiologically and psychologically, abused animals develop behavioral disorders just as people do.

What difference between animals and humans would make our suffering different?

Are you saying that human awareness and animal awareness is identical?

Depends what you mean by awareness, maybe you should clarify. What do you mean by awareness and how does that understanding interact with how an animal or human would perceive pain?

What I am suggesting is that the biological and behavioral data paints a fairly straightforward picture about the similarity of how animals and human experience pain.

My question is in what way do you think the two experience pain differently, and why is that morally relevant?
SubterFugitive
Posts: 255
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10/5/2014 8:21:58 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/5/2014 8:14:19 PM, Raisor wrote:


Are you saying that human awareness and animal awareness is identical?

Depends what you mean by awareness, maybe you should clarify. What do you mean by awareness and how does that understanding interact with how an animal or human would perceive pain?

Clearly we humans are persons with awareness of pain such that it's a moral issue. What I'm asking is whether animals have the same sort of awareness of pain.


What I am suggesting is that the biological and behavioral data paints a fairly straightforward picture about the similarity of how animals and human experience pain.

All the biological and behavioral data shows is what I've already agreed with, that animals feel and are aware of pain. BUT that's not the question, the question is whether they have a higher order awareness of pain like we do such that it becomes a moral issue.

My question is in what way do you think the two experience pain differently, and why is that morally relevant?

I never claimed knowledge of whether or not animals experience pain differently, I actually admit ignorance of this point.

However if we WERE to find out, somehow, that animals experience pain as we do, then the theological point could be raised; 'why would God allow such creatures throughout evolution to experience such horrific and untold suffering?'
SubterFugitive
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10/5/2014 8:23:10 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Those links I provided in the opening post also does a good job at summing why it would be morally relevant.
apb4y
Posts: 480
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10/5/2014 9:42:22 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/5/2014 5:54:45 PM, SubterFugitive wrote:
At 10/5/2014 5:49:44 PM, apb4y wrote:
At 10/5/2014 4:18:41 PM, SubterFugitive wrote:
I was wondering whether anyone could support the notion that animals, save for the primates and humans, experience pain in a higher order state like persons do, that is, whether they experience pain such that it would be a moral issue for allowing them to have it.

They feel pain. What more is there to discuss?

Simply, whether they experience it like persons do, in a certain order awareness to where there is a moral dimension involved. That's what's more to discuss.

I don't feel pain when I get cut. Does that make it okay for you to cut me? If we define the morality of an action by how much pain it causes, then it's more moral to injure an old lady who's full of morphine than it is to slaughter a cow at the meat works.
SubterFugitive
Posts: 255
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10/5/2014 10:22:45 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/5/2014 9:42:22 PM, apb4y wrote:
At 10/5/2014 5:54:45 PM, SubterFugitive wrote:
At 10/5/2014 5:49:44 PM, apb4y wrote:
At 10/5/2014 4:18:41 PM, SubterFugitive wrote:
I was wondering whether anyone could support the notion that animals, save for the primates and humans, experience pain in a higher order state like persons do, that is, whether they experience pain such that it would be a moral issue for allowing them to have it.

They feel pain. What more is there to discuss?

Simply, whether they experience it like persons do, in a certain order awareness to where there is a moral dimension involved. That's what's more to discuss.

I don't feel pain when I get cut. Does that make it okay for you to cut me? If we define the morality of an action by how much pain it causes, then it's more moral to injure an old lady who's full of morphine than it is to slaughter a cow at the meat works.

That's a good point as far as defining morality is concerned but that's not what I'm trying to establish here. What I'm trying to establish here is whether or not animals experience pain or suffering in an identical state that persons do.
apb4y
Posts: 480
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10/5/2014 11:15:52 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/5/2014 10:22:45 PM, SubterFugitive wrote:

That's a good point as far as defining morality is concerned but that's not what I'm trying to establish here. What I'm trying to establish here is whether or not animals experience pain or suffering in an identical state that persons do.

1. Which of the many "states" that people feel are you comparing it to?

2. How would you measure it?
SubterFugitive
Posts: 255
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10/5/2014 11:29:09 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/5/2014 11:15:52 PM, apb4y wrote:
At 10/5/2014 10:22:45 PM, SubterFugitive wrote:

That's a good point as far as defining morality is concerned but that's not what I'm trying to establish here. What I'm trying to establish here is whether or not animals experience pain or suffering in an identical state that persons do.

1. Which of the many "states" that people feel are you comparing it to?

I'm not using 'states' here as in, 'I was in a state of confusion' say... rather I mean state in the sense that animals experience pain in the same sort of way that persons do, not just that they are aware of their pain, but that they are aware of it in the same way that persons are.

2. How would you measure it?

What do you mean by 'measure' here? The thing about qualia is it's not called "quanta" for a reason.
apb4y
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10/6/2014 12:01:51 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/5/2014 11:29:09 PM, SubterFugitive wrote:
At 10/5/2014 11:15:52 PM, apb4y wrote:
At 10/5/2014 10:22:45 PM, SubterFugitive wrote:

That's a good point as far as defining morality is concerned but that's not what I'm trying to establish here. What I'm trying to establish here is whether or not animals experience pain or suffering in an identical state that persons do.

1. Which of the many "states" that people feel are you comparing it to?

I'm not using 'states' here as in, 'I was in a state of confusion' say... rather I mean state in the sense that animals experience pain in the same sort of way that persons do, not just that they are aware of their pain, but that they are aware of it in the same way that persons are.

2. How would you measure it?

What do you mean by 'measure' here? The thing about qualia is it's not called "quanta" for a reason.

What method would you use to empirically determine whether or not humans experience pain the same way as other animals?
SubterFugitive
Posts: 255
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10/6/2014 12:30:49 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/6/2014 12:01:51 AM, apb4y wrote:
At 10/5/2014 11:29:09 PM, SubterFugitive wrote:
At 10/5/2014 11:15:52 PM, apb4y wrote:
At 10/5/2014 10:22:45 PM, SubterFugitive wrote:

That's a good point as far as defining morality is concerned but that's not what I'm trying to establish here. What I'm trying to establish here is whether or not animals experience pain or suffering in an identical state that persons do.

1. Which of the many "states" that people feel are you comparing it to?

I'm not using 'states' here as in, 'I was in a state of confusion' say... rather I mean state in the sense that animals experience pain in the same sort of way that persons do, not just that they are aware of their pain, but that they are aware of it in the same way that persons are.

2. How would you measure it?

What do you mean by 'measure' here? The thing about qualia is it's not called "quanta" for a reason.

What method would you use to empirically determine whether or not humans experience pain the same way as other animals?

That's what I'm asking you lol, I'm not sure if we can!
apb4y
Posts: 480
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10/6/2014 3:18:56 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/6/2014 12:30:49 AM, SubterFugitive wrote:
At 10/6/2014 12:01:51 AM, apb4y wrote:
At 10/5/2014 11:29:09 PM, SubterFugitive wrote:
At 10/5/2014 11:15:52 PM, apb4y wrote:
At 10/5/2014 10:22:45 PM, SubterFugitive wrote:

That's a good point as far as defining morality is concerned but that's not what I'm trying to establish here. What I'm trying to establish here is whether or not animals experience pain or suffering in an identical state that persons do.

1. Which of the many "states" that people feel are you comparing it to?

I'm not using 'states' here as in, 'I was in a state of confusion' say... rather I mean state in the sense that animals experience pain in the same sort of way that persons do, not just that they are aware of their pain, but that they are aware of it in the same way that persons are.

2. How would you measure it?

What do you mean by 'measure' here? The thing about qualia is it's not called "quanta" for a reason.

What method would you use to empirically determine whether or not humans experience pain the same way as other animals?

That's what I'm asking you lol, I'm not sure if we can!

Then it doesn't matter.
SubterFugitive
Posts: 255
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10/6/2014 2:30:49 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/6/2014 3:18:56 AM, apb4y wrote:


What method would you use to empirically determine whether or not humans experience pain the same way as other animals?

That's what I'm asking you lol, I'm not sure if we can!

Then it doesn't matter.

Well then I guess according to you, we can't use animal suffering as an argument from evil against the existence of God.

That being said, why think it's the case that only things which are quantifiable, are meaningful? Is this notion ITSELF quantifiable?