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What is Wrong With Incest?

Wallstreetatheist
Posts: 7,132
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10/7/2014 11:20:35 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
This video argues that objections to incest are emotional, rather than logical. Is there something morally wrong with consensual incest with contraception?
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Burls
Posts: 61
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10/8/2014 11:39:52 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
The jealousy that monogamy addresses will be a stumbling block in an incestual relationship.
sadolite
Posts: 8,839
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10/8/2014 2:04:01 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/7/2014 11:20:35 PM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
This video argues that objections to incest are emotional, rather than logical. Is there something morally wrong with consensual incest with contraception?


"What is Wrong With Incest?" Nothing really. There is nothing that is wrong that can't be made acceptable with the proper amount of desensitizing and indoctrination. Take genocide for instance. It has happened numerous times. But right now it's considered wrong. Then in the future it won't be.
It's not your views that divide us, it's what you think my views should be that divides us.

If you think I will give up my rights and forsake social etiquette to make you "FEEL" better you are sadly mistaken

If liberal democrats would just stop shooting people gun violence would drop by 90%
Sidewalker
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10/8/2014 2:35:56 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/7/2014 11:20:35 PM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
This video argues that objections to incest are emotional, rather than logical. Is there something morally wrong with consensual incest with contraception?

Well, there's the "Ewwwww, gross and disgusting" thing to logically consider.
"It is one of the commonest of mistakes to consider that the limit of our power of perception is also the limit of all there is to perceive." " C. W. Leadbeater
Zylorarchy
Posts: 209
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10/8/2014 2:52:50 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/7/2014 11:20:35 PM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
This video argues that objections to incest are emotional, rather than logical. Is there something morally wrong with consensual incest with contraception?


Contraception does not provide 100% protection from conception. This inbreeding will always be a risk, even if it is only a small one.
"I am not intolerant of religion, I am intolerant of intolerance"
"True freedom is not simply left or right. It is the ability to know when a law is needed, but more importantly, know when one is not"
Wallstreetatheist
Posts: 7,132
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10/8/2014 6:56:24 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/8/2014 2:52:50 PM, Zylorarchy wrote:
At 10/7/2014 11:20:35 PM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
This video argues that objections to incest are emotional, rather than logical. Is there something morally wrong with consensual incest with contraception?


Contraception does not provide 100% protection from conception. This inbreeding will always be a risk, even if it is only a small one.

What about in the case of an infertile woman and an infertile man? Or a menopausal woman and castrated man?
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Wallstreetatheist
Posts: 7,132
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10/8/2014 6:57:05 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/8/2014 11:39:52 AM, Burls wrote:
The jealousy that monogamy addresses will be a stumbling block in an incestuous relationship.

What if it is a strictly monogamous relationship?
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Burls
Posts: 61
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10/8/2014 7:23:59 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Personally I favor something along the lines of polygamy, but I think the fragile psyche will suffer if subjected to the restrictions of monogamy within an incestual relationship, partly due to the forces involved with siblings leaving the nest.

Hopefully science can alleviate the strain on those individuals for whom monogamy is the solution to their jealousy.
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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10/8/2014 8:37:11 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Children that are spawns of incest, many times, end up having birth defects. So, someone could say that incest is wrong because of that.
xXCryptoXx
Posts: 5,000
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10/8/2014 9:36:51 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/8/2014 2:04:01 PM, sadolite wrote:
At 10/7/2014 11:20:35 PM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
This video argues that objections to incest are emotional, rather than logical. Is there something morally wrong with consensual incest with contraception?


"What is Wrong With Incest?" Nothing really. There is nothing that is wrong that can't be made acceptable with the proper amount of desensitizing and indoctrination. Take genocide for instance. It has happened numerous times. But right now it's considered wrong. Then in the future it won't be.

That was well said.
Nolite Timere
dylancatlow
Posts: 12,251
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10/8/2014 9:48:34 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/8/2014 2:04:01 PM, sadolite wrote:
At 10/7/2014 11:20:35 PM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
This video argues that objections to incest are emotional, rather than logical. Is there something morally wrong with consensual incest with contraception?


"What is Wrong With Incest?" Nothing really. There is nothing that is wrong that can't be made acceptable with the proper amount of desensitizing and indoctrination. Take genocide for instance. It has happened numerous times. But right now it's considered wrong. Then in the future it won't be.

Are you really equating socially acceptable with morally right?
Envisage
Posts: 3,646
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10/8/2014 9:53:12 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/7/2014 11:20:35 PM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
This video argues that objections to incest are emotional, rather than logical. Is there something morally wrong with consensual incest with contraception?


I had a debate on this. Most the objections I have are based on society impacts. Legalising incest would undermine the family unit, and leave children more vulnerable to child abuse.

Pretty much need t look at the consequences of what a society would be like if there mentally and legally was nothing wrong with incest, and see if that's what we want in society. Given that families are valuable long-term constructs for people, frivolous undermining of it should be only done after serious consideration.

Even if some incestial relationships would turn out happy and beneficial for them, the overall impact for society is are debatably negative (similar reasoning as in the legalisation if guns debate).
Philosophybro
Posts: 9
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10/9/2014 12:02:33 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
*Wincest

Seriously it's none of my business. I would hope they use protection because the offspring are often the victims. I have seen it myself.
Wallstreetatheist
Posts: 7,132
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10/9/2014 12:32:40 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/8/2014 9:53:12 PM, Envisage wrote:
I had a debate on this. Most the objections I have are based on society impacts. Legalising incest would undermine the family unit, and leave children more vulnerable to child abuse.

Pretty much need t look at the consequences of what a society would be like if there mentally and legally was nothing wrong with incest, and see if that's what we want in society. Given that families are valuable long-term constructs for people, frivolous undermining of it should be only done after serious consideration.

Even if some incestuous relationships would turn out happy and beneficial for them, the overall impact for society is are debatably negative (similar reasoning as in the legalization if guns debate).

Good argument, but please expound upon your last paragraph. Why is it 'in principle' wrong for a mutually happy and beneficial couple who cannot conceive to engage in incest?
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dylancatlow
Posts: 12,251
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10/9/2014 11:14:15 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/9/2014 12:32:40 AM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
At 10/8/2014 9:53:12 PM, Envisage wrote:
I had a debate on this. Most the objections I have are based on society impacts. Legalising incest would undermine the family unit, and leave children more vulnerable to child abuse.

Pretty much need t look at the consequences of what a society would be like if there mentally and legally was nothing wrong with incest, and see if that's what we want in society. Given that families are valuable long-term constructs for people, frivolous undermining of it should be only done after serious consideration.

Even if some incestuous relationships would turn out happy and beneficial for them, the overall impact for society is are debatably negative (similar reasoning as in the legalization if guns debate).

Good argument, but please expound upon your last paragraph. Why is it 'in principle' wrong for a mutually happy and beneficial couple who cannot conceive to engage in incest?

He hasn't said that. He means that allowing incest would have an overall negative impact on society.
xXCryptoXx
Posts: 5,000
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10/9/2014 1:42:51 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/8/2014 9:48:34 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 10/8/2014 2:04:01 PM, sadolite wrote:
At 10/7/2014 11:20:35 PM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
This video argues that objections to incest are emotional, rather than logical. Is there something morally wrong with consensual incest with contraception?


"What is Wrong With Incest?" Nothing really. There is nothing that is wrong that can't be made acceptable with the proper amount of desensitizing and indoctrination. Take genocide for instance. It has happened numerous times. But right now it's considered wrong. Then in the future it won't be.

Are you really equating socially acceptable with morally right?

We're not talking about something's morality, but rather how others percieve something to be either moral or immoral. Any action can be made moral from a person's perception with enough desensitization and indoctrination.
Nolite Timere
dylancatlow
Posts: 12,251
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10/9/2014 1:45:43 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/9/2014 1:42:51 PM, xXCryptoXx wrote:
At 10/8/2014 9:48:34 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 10/8/2014 2:04:01 PM, sadolite wrote:
At 10/7/2014 11:20:35 PM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
This video argues that objections to incest are emotional, rather than logical. Is there something morally wrong with consensual incest with contraception?


"What is Wrong With Incest?" Nothing really. There is nothing that is wrong that can't be made acceptable with the proper amount of desensitizing and indoctrination. Take genocide for instance. It has happened numerous times. But right now it's considered wrong. Then in the future it won't be.

Are you really equating socially acceptable with morally right?

We're not talking about something's morality, but rather how others percieve something to be either moral or immoral. Any action can be made moral from a person's perception with enough desensitization and indoctrination.

Then why did he say "'What is Wrong With Incest?' Nothing really."
xXCryptoXx
Posts: 5,000
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10/9/2014 1:49:21 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/9/2014 1:45:43 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 10/9/2014 1:42:51 PM, xXCryptoXx wrote:
At 10/8/2014 9:48:34 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 10/8/2014 2:04:01 PM, sadolite wrote:
At 10/7/2014 11:20:35 PM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
This video argues that objections to incest are emotional, rather than logical. Is there something morally wrong with consensual incest with contraception?


"What is Wrong With Incest?" Nothing really. There is nothing that is wrong that can't be made acceptable with the proper amount of desensitizing and indoctrination. Take genocide for instance. It has happened numerous times. But right now it's considered wrong. Then in the future it won't be.

Are you really equating socially acceptable with morally right?

We're not talking about something's morality, but rather how others percieve something to be either moral or immoral. Any action can be made moral from a person's perception with enough desensitization and indoctrination.

Then why did he say "'What is Wrong With Incest?' Nothing really."

Ignore that ...lol
Nolite Timere
sadolite
Posts: 8,839
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10/9/2014 3:59:55 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/8/2014 9:48:34 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 10/8/2014 2:04:01 PM, sadolite wrote:
At 10/7/2014 11:20:35 PM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
This video argues that objections to incest are emotional, rather than logical. Is there something morally wrong with consensual incest with contraception?


"What is Wrong With Incest?" Nothing really. There is nothing that is wrong that can't be made acceptable with the proper amount of desensitizing and indoctrination. Take genocide for instance. It has happened numerous times. But right now it's considered wrong. Then in the future it won't be.

Are you really equating socially acceptable with morally right?

Well ya, society doesn't care what is morally right or wrong. So there is no difference. I know there is a difference but I am not part of society, but only to be subject to it. My calls for what is morally wrong or right are irrelevant to society. Society has no use for objective morality. It rejects it entirely. It only teaches what is against the law and the consequences, if any, for breaking the law. It is neither right nor wrong to break the law. Congress ignores the rule of law all the time. People break the law all the time and justify it with social justice.. So ya that is what I am doing, equating social acceptability to what is morally right because society does not acknowledge morality. Only laws and consequences for breaking them, if there are any, are acknowledged. We could debate there is a difference but it doesn't matter if there is, because society doesn't care about or acknowledge morality.
It's not your views that divide us, it's what you think my views should be that divides us.

If you think I will give up my rights and forsake social etiquette to make you "FEEL" better you are sadly mistaken

If liberal democrats would just stop shooting people gun violence would drop by 90%
sadolite
Posts: 8,839
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10/9/2014 4:05:33 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/9/2014 1:49:21 PM, xXCryptoXx wrote:
At 10/9/2014 1:45:43 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 10/9/2014 1:42:51 PM, xXCryptoXx wrote:
At 10/8/2014 9:48:34 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 10/8/2014 2:04:01 PM, sadolite wrote:
At 10/7/2014 11:20:35 PM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
This video argues that objections to incest are emotional, rather than logical. Is there something morally wrong with consensual incest with contraception?


"What is Wrong With Incest?" Nothing really. There is nothing that is wrong that can't be made acceptable with the proper amount of desensitizing and indoctrination. Take genocide for instance. It has happened numerous times. But right now it's considered wrong. Then in the future it won't be.

Are you really equating socially acceptable with morally right?

We're not talking about something's morality, but rather how others percieve something to be either moral or immoral. Any action can be made moral from a person's perception with enough desensitization and indoctrination.

Then why did he say "'What is Wrong With Incest?' Nothing really."

Ignore that ...lol

Then why did he say "'What is Wrong With Incest?' Nothing really." The only reason it could be considered wrong is if society continues to view it to be wrong. That can change overnight. There is nothing that is wrong or right with regard to society. Only the flavor of the day applies.
It's not your views that divide us, it's what you think my views should be that divides us.

If you think I will give up my rights and forsake social etiquette to make you "FEEL" better you are sadly mistaken

If liberal democrats would just stop shooting people gun violence would drop by 90%
Zylorarchy
Posts: 209
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10/9/2014 4:23:22 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/8/2014 6:56:24 PM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
At 10/8/2014 2:52:50 PM, Zylorarchy wrote:
At 10/7/2014 11:20:35 PM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
This video argues that objections to incest are emotional, rather than logical. Is there something morally wrong with consensual incest with contraception?


Contraception does not provide 100% protection from conception. This inbreeding will always be a risk, even if it is only a small one.

What about in the case of an infertile woman and an infertile man? Or a menopausal woman and castrated man?

An interesting point, and in such situations I may even say that... yes they should be allowed to commit incest.

But another problem then arises. We as society cannot simply say some people are allowed to commit incest and others are not purely based upon infertility (and its equivalents in men/women). That would be unjustifiably unequal.
"I am not intolerant of religion, I am intolerant of intolerance"
"True freedom is not simply left or right. It is the ability to know when a law is needed, but more importantly, know when one is not"
the_croftmeister
Posts: 678
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10/9/2014 4:37:16 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/9/2014 4:23:22 PM, Zylorarchy wrote:
At 10/8/2014 6:56:24 PM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
At 10/8/2014 2:52:50 PM, Zylorarchy wrote:
At 10/7/2014 11:20:35 PM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
This video argues that objections to incest are emotional, rather than logical. Is there something morally wrong with consensual incest with contraception?


Contraception does not provide 100% protection from conception. This inbreeding will always be a risk, even if it is only a small one.

What about in the case of an infertile woman and an infertile man? Or a menopausal woman and castrated man?

An interesting point, and in such situations I may even say that... yes they should be allowed to commit incest.

But another problem then arises. We as society cannot simply say some people are allowed to commit incest and others are not purely based upon infertility (and its equivalents in men/women). That would be unjustifiably unequal.

If there's a good reason then could it not be justifiably unequal? This I suppose speaks to a broader question on the notion of equality. Do we support equality by imposing fair universal constraints? Or do we try to impose fair constraints equivalently (if not necessarily identically).

The above is an example of the argument 'X is bad for some, therefore take X away from everyone'.
We could also argue the other way 'Y is good for some, therefore give Y to everyone'.
In both cases it would appear that we could do better for some people by diverting the resources devoted to taking away X from people who it doesn't hurt and giving Y to people who it doesn't help.

Of course this only applies to things either accessible to everyone (first case) or produced by the state/other body (second case). Where the bad thing is of limited supply, or the good thing is universally available, a different analysis would apply.

Thoughts?
dylancatlow
Posts: 12,251
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10/9/2014 4:40:01 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/9/2014 3:59:55 PM, sadolite wrote:
At 10/8/2014 9:48:34 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 10/8/2014 2:04:01 PM, sadolite wrote:
At 10/7/2014 11:20:35 PM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
This video argues that objections to incest are emotional, rather than logical. Is there something morally wrong with consensual incest with contraception?


"What is Wrong With Incest?" Nothing really. There is nothing that is wrong that can't be made acceptable with the proper amount of desensitizing and indoctrination. Take genocide for instance. It has happened numerous times. But right now it's considered wrong. Then in the future it won't be.

Are you really equating socially acceptable with morally right?

Well ya, society doesn't care what is morally right or wrong. So there is no difference. I know there is a difference but I am not part of society, but only to be subject to it. My calls for what is morally wrong or right are irrelevant to society. Society has no use for objective morality. It rejects it entirely. It only teaches what is against the law and the consequences, if any, for breaking the law. It is neither right nor wrong to break the law. Congress ignores the rule of law all the time. People break the law all the time and justify it with social justice.. So ya that is what I am doing, equating social acceptability to what is morally right because society does not acknowledge morality. Only laws and consequences for breaking them, if there are any, are acknowledged. We could debate there is a difference but it doesn't matter if there is, because society doesn't care about or acknowledge morality.

What utter nonsense. You're clearly angry at society and don't actually mean this.
sadolite
Posts: 8,839
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10/9/2014 5:17:06 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/9/2014 4:40:01 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 10/9/2014 3:59:55 PM, sadolite wrote:
At 10/8/2014 9:48:34 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 10/8/2014 2:04:01 PM, sadolite wrote:
At 10/7/2014 11:20:35 PM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
This video argues that objections to incest are emotional, rather than logical. Is there something morally wrong with consensual incest with contraception?


"What is Wrong With Incest?" Nothing really. There is nothing that is wrong that can't be made acceptable with the proper amount of desensitizing and indoctrination. Take genocide for instance. It has happened numerous times. But right now it's considered wrong. Then in the future it won't be.

Are you really equating socially acceptable with morally right?

Well ya, society doesn't care what is morally right or wrong. So there is no difference. I know there is a difference but I am not part of society, but only to be subject to it. My calls for what is morally wrong or right are irrelevant to society. Society has no use for objective morality. It rejects it entirely. It only teaches what is against the law and the consequences, if any, for breaking the law. It is neither right nor wrong to break the law. Congress ignores the rule of law all the time. People break the law all the time and justify it with social justice.. So ya that is what I am doing, equating social acceptability to what is morally right because society does not acknowledge morality. Only laws and consequences for breaking them, if there are any, are acknowledged. We could debate there is a difference but it doesn't matter if there is, because society doesn't care about or acknowledge morality.

What utter nonsense. You're clearly angry at society and don't actually mean this.

I call it like I see it, How I feel is irrelevant.
It's not your views that divide us, it's what you think my views should be that divides us.

If you think I will give up my rights and forsake social etiquette to make you "FEEL" better you are sadly mistaken

If liberal democrats would just stop shooting people gun violence would drop by 90%
sadolite
Posts: 8,839
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10/9/2014 5:20:28 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Tell me what is morally right today that was morally wrong yesterday? Or how about the reverse. I can think of numerous examples. And by morally right and wrong I mean societies delusional version where no right or wrong exists.
It's not your views that divide us, it's what you think my views should be that divides us.

If you think I will give up my rights and forsake social etiquette to make you "FEEL" better you are sadly mistaken

If liberal democrats would just stop shooting people gun violence would drop by 90%
bossyburrito
Posts: 14,075
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10/9/2014 6:31:02 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/7/2014 11:20:35 PM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
This video argues that objections to incest are emotional, rather than logical. Is there something morally wrong with consensual incest with contraception?


Wow, I wasn't expecting to see a video by that guy here. I very much like some of the other things he's made, such as this: https://www.youtube.com...

Small world, huh?

On-topic: Outside of relationships that involve a degree of power (such as that between a parent and child), I don't see anything wrong with incest, provided that it is consensual and meaningful. I don't find arguments about birth defects convincing, either, considering that they assume that the rights on a potential and unliving entity (at the time) are important to consider in the present.
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Wallstreetatheist
Posts: 7,132
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10/9/2014 6:58:01 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/9/2014 11:14:15 AM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 10/9/2014 12:32:40 AM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
At 10/8/2014 9:53:12 PM, Envisage wrote:
I had a debate on this. Most the objections I have are based on society impacts. Legalising incest would undermine the family unit, and leave children more vulnerable to child abuse.

Pretty much need t look at the consequences of what a society would be like if there mentally and legally was nothing wrong with incest, and see if that's what we want in society. Given that families are valuable long-term constructs for people, frivolous undermining of it should be only done after serious consideration.

Even if some incestuous relationships would turn out happy and beneficial for them, the overall impact for society is are debatably negative (similar reasoning as in the legalization if guns debate).

Good argument, but please expound upon your last paragraph. Why is it 'in principle' wrong for a mutually happy and beneficial couple who cannot conceive to engage in incest?

He hasn't said that. He means that allowing incest would have an overall negative impact on society.

You're right, I meant to say how is it bad for society in the example I used.
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dtaylor971
Posts: 1,907
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10/9/2014 10:14:09 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Well... there's not really much wrong with it. But when a sister and brother had lived together for 15 years, then suddenly decide to bone, it changes the whole relationship in an awkward way. If both of them consent to it, then I suppose it is all right. This makes for a very interesting debate topic.
"I don't know why gays want to marry, I have spent the last 25 years wishing I wasn't allowed to." -Sadolite
Sidewalker
Posts: 3,713
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10/10/2014 6:24:04 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/9/2014 1:45:43 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 10/9/2014 1:42:51 PM, xXCryptoXx wrote:
At 10/8/2014 9:48:34 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 10/8/2014 2:04:01 PM, sadolite wrote:
At 10/7/2014 11:20:35 PM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
This video argues that objections to incest are emotional, rather than logical. Is there something morally wrong with consensual incest with contraception?

"What is Wrong With Incest?" Nothing really. There is nothing that is wrong that can't be made acceptable with the proper amount of desensitizing and indoctrination. Take genocide for instance. It has happened numerous times. But right now it's considered wrong. Then in the future it won't be.

Are you really equating socially acceptable with morally right?

We're not talking about something's morality, but rather how others percieve something to be either moral or immoral. Any action can be made moral from a person's perception with enough desensitization and indoctrination.

Then why did he say "'What is Wrong With Incest?' Nothing really."

He thinks his sister is a hottie?
"It is one of the commonest of mistakes to consider that the limit of our power of perception is also the limit of all there is to perceive." " C. W. Leadbeater