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Free Will and the PAP

Envisage
Posts: 3,646
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10/10/2014 2:10:09 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Does Free Will necessitate the Principle of alternative Possibilities to be true? To which I have given a modal representation below:

P1. If free will exists, then s2 AND s3 are logically possible situations after a choice event in the same situation (s1)
P2. s2=/=s3=/=s1

So basically, if we reran the universe, and everything back from s1 all over again, and repeated this process over and over, then both s2 and s3 will arise.

However, if we consider the thinking process, then it seems we need only be aware of the two putatively possible (don't confuse with metaphysically possible) choices, and then select one choice based on our knowledge, emotions etc. So in essence 'you' are making the informed decision.

I am guessing this is what the compatibilists and incompatibilists argue on determinism. If determinism is true, then the PAP is false, but it may not matter.

Can anyone point me to reading material on this?
dylancatlow
Posts: 12,244
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10/10/2014 2:23:48 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/10/2014 2:10:09 PM, Envisage wrote:
Does Free Will necessitate the Principle of alternative Possibilities to be true? To which I have given a modal representation below:


Yes. If everything was determined in advance, there would be no room for free will.
charleslb
Posts: 4,740
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10/10/2014 5:13:31 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Freedom entails nondeterminism and the potential for the mutually self-creative and mutually cosmically-creative members of the universe to select among different creative options and produce creatively diverse and nondetermined outcomes. As you might have noted, the key word here is "creative". That is, creativity is the fundamental nature of existence; and freedom, free-creative choice, creative self-determination, is the essence of creativity.
Yo, all of my subliterate conservative criticasters who find perusing and processing the sesquipedalian verbiage of my posts to be such a bothersome brain-taxing chore, I have a new nickname for you. Henceforth you shall be known as Pooh Bears. No, not for the obvious apt reasons, i.e., not because you're full of pooh, and not because of your ursine irritability. Rather, you put me in mind of an A.A. Milne quote, "I am a Bear of Very Little Brain, and long words bother me". Love ya, Pooh Bears.
charleslb
Posts: 4,740
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10/10/2014 5:22:40 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Here,

https://arcaneknowledgeofthedeep.files.wordpress.com...
Yo, all of my subliterate conservative criticasters who find perusing and processing the sesquipedalian verbiage of my posts to be such a bothersome brain-taxing chore, I have a new nickname for you. Henceforth you shall be known as Pooh Bears. No, not for the obvious apt reasons, i.e., not because you're full of pooh, and not because of your ursine irritability. Rather, you put me in mind of an A.A. Milne quote, "I am a Bear of Very Little Brain, and long words bother me". Love ya, Pooh Bears.
bananafana
Posts: 108
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10/12/2014 2:46:43 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/10/2014 5:13:31 PM, charleslb wrote:
Freedom entails nondeterminism and the potential for the mutually self-creative and mutually cosmically-creative members of the universe to select among different creative options and produce creatively diverse and nondetermined outcomes. As you might have noted, the key word here is "creative". That is, creativity is the fundamental nature of existence; and freedom, free-creative choice, creative self-determination, is the essence of creativity.

u dont know what the freking heck ur talking about charless. a bunch of nonsese if u ask me
thinker, philosopher, renasance-man.
charleslb
Posts: 4,740
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10/12/2014 4:35:57 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/12/2014 2:46:43 PM, bananafana wrote:
At 10/10/2014 5:13:31 PM, charleslb wrote:
Freedom entails nondeterminism and the potential for the mutually self-creative and mutually cosmically-creative members of the universe to select among different creative options and produce creatively diverse and nondetermined outcomes. As you might have noted, the key word here is "creative". That is, creativity is the fundamental nature of existence; and freedom, free-creative choice, creative self-determination, is the essence of creativity.

u dont know what the freking heck ur talking about charless. a bunch of nonsese if u ask me

Sorry if I've annoyed you. I was simply expanding the question of free will into that of ontological freedom, addressing the ontological foundations of freedom from the perspective of a Whiteheadian process conceptuality that features fundamentals such as creativity, mutually-creative occasions of creative experience, creative self-determination & freedom, etc. I.e., it's an ontological point of view which emphasizes creativity and freedom and which, alas, is quite alien to a great many modern scientistic minds. Yes, sorry for throwing such an alien ontology at you out of the blue. My bad.
Yo, all of my subliterate conservative criticasters who find perusing and processing the sesquipedalian verbiage of my posts to be such a bothersome brain-taxing chore, I have a new nickname for you. Henceforth you shall be known as Pooh Bears. No, not for the obvious apt reasons, i.e., not because you're full of pooh, and not because of your ursine irritability. Rather, you put me in mind of an A.A. Milne quote, "I am a Bear of Very Little Brain, and long words bother me". Love ya, Pooh Bears.
bananafana
Posts: 108
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10/12/2014 5:48:06 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/12/2014 4:35:57 PM, charleslb wrote:
At 10/12/2014 2:46:43 PM, bananafana wrote:
At 10/10/2014 5:13:31 PM, charleslb wrote:
Freedom entails nondeterminism and the potential for the mutually self-creative and mutually cosmically-creative members of the universe to select among different creative options and produce creatively diverse and nondetermined outcomes. As you might have noted, the key word here is "creative". That is, creativity is the fundamental nature of existence; and freedom, free-creative choice, creative self-determination, is the essence of creativity.

u dont know what the freking heck ur talking about charless. a bunch of nonsese if u ask me

Sorry if I've annoyed you. I was simply expanding the question of free will into that of ontological freedom, addressing the ontological foundations of freedom from the perspective of a Whiteheadian process conceptuality that features fundamentals such as creativity, mutually-creative occasions of creative experience, creative self-determination & freedom, etc. I.e., it's an ontological point of view which emphasizes creativity and freedom and which, alas, is quite alien to a great many modern scientistic minds. Yes, sorry for throwing such an alien ontology at you out of the blue. My bad.

oh honey, dont feel too bad.i know that being retarded isnt something u can help.
thinker, philosopher, renasance-man.
charleslb
Posts: 4,740
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10/12/2014 5:59:30 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/12/2014 5:48:06 PM, bananafana wrote:
At 10/12/2014 4:35:57 PM, charleslb wrote:
At 10/12/2014 2:46:43 PM, bananafana wrote:
At 10/10/2014 5:13:31 PM, charleslb wrote:
Freedom entails nondeterminism and the potential for the mutually self-creative and mutually cosmically-creative members of the universe to select among different creative options and produce creatively diverse and nondetermined outcomes. As you might have noted, the key word here is "creative". That is, creativity is the fundamental nature of existence; and freedom, free-creative choice, creative self-determination, is the essence of creativity.

u dont know what the freking heck ur talking about charless. a bunch of nonsese if u ask me

Sorry if I've annoyed you. I was simply expanding the question of free will into that of ontological freedom, addressing the ontological foundations of freedom from the perspective of a Whiteheadian process conceptuality that features fundamentals such as creativity, mutually-creative occasions of creative experience, creative self-determination & freedom, etc. I.e., it's an ontological point of view which emphasizes creativity and freedom and which, alas, is quite alien to a great many modern scientistic minds. Yes, sorry for throwing such an alien ontology at you out of the blue. My bad.

oh honey, dont feel too bad.i know that being retarded isnt something u can help.

Let's see, I was not rude or insulting to you in the slightest, and yet you feel provoked and see fit to direct this kind of an uncivil and abusive response at me, one that's not only unkind to me but to mentally disabled individuals as well (yes, the use of the word "retarded" as an insult word is indeed quite insensitive to the mentally handicapped - not to mention that it makes one sound like an unsophisticated adolescent)? What a lovely and intelligent human being you are. Yes, I'm sure that we'll have many pleasant and fruitful discussions.
Yo, all of my subliterate conservative criticasters who find perusing and processing the sesquipedalian verbiage of my posts to be such a bothersome brain-taxing chore, I have a new nickname for you. Henceforth you shall be known as Pooh Bears. No, not for the obvious apt reasons, i.e., not because you're full of pooh, and not because of your ursine irritability. Rather, you put me in mind of an A.A. Milne quote, "I am a Bear of Very Little Brain, and long words bother me". Love ya, Pooh Bears.
bananafana
Posts: 108
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10/12/2014 6:00:47 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/12/2014 5:59:30 PM, charleslb wrote:
At 10/12/2014 5:48:06 PM, bananafana wrote:
At 10/12/2014 4:35:57 PM, charleslb wrote:
At 10/12/2014 2:46:43 PM, bananafana wrote:
At 10/10/2014 5:13:31 PM, charleslb wrote:
Freedom entails nondeterminism and the potential for the mutually self-creative and mutually cosmically-creative members of the universe to select among different creative options and produce creatively diverse and nondetermined outcomes. As you might have noted, the key word here is "creative". That is, creativity is the fundamental nature of existence; and freedom, free-creative choice, creative self-determination, is the essence of creativity.

u dont know what the freking heck ur talking about charless. a bunch of nonsese if u ask me

Sorry if I've annoyed you. I was simply expanding the question of free will into that of ontological freedom, addressing the ontological foundations of freedom from the perspective of a Whiteheadian process conceptuality that features fundamentals such as creativity, mutually-creative occasions of creative experience, creative self-determination & freedom, etc. I.e., it's an ontological point of view which emphasizes creativity and freedom and which, alas, is quite alien to a great many modern scientistic minds. Yes, sorry for throwing such an alien ontology at you out of the blue. My bad.

oh honey, dont feel too bad.i know that being retarded isnt something u can help.


Let's see, I was not rude or insulting to you in the slightest, and yet you feel provoked and see fit to direct this kind of an uncivil and abusive response at me, one that's not only unkind to me but to mentally disabled individuals as well (yes, the use of the word "retarded" as an insult word is indeed quite insensitive to the mentally handicapped - not to mention that it makes one sound like an unsophisticated adolescent)? What a lovely and intelligent human being you are. Yes, I'm sure that we'll have many pleasant and fruitful discussions.

mhmmm if u dont say. oh darn, i dont get the same effect without my monicle and my nicke to flip.
thinker, philosopher, renasance-man.
bananafana
Posts: 108
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10/12/2014 6:02:38 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
does charles always act like a disgruntled english profesosr. probably. silly charly.
thinker, philosopher, renasance-man.
charleslb
Posts: 4,740
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10/12/2014 6:09:40 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/12/2014 6:00:47 PM, bananafana wrote:
At 10/12/2014 5:59:30 PM, charleslb wrote:
At 10/12/2014 5:48:06 PM, bananafana wrote:
At 10/12/2014 4:35:57 PM, charleslb wrote:
At 10/12/2014 2:46:43 PM, bananafana wrote:
At 10/10/2014 5:13:31 PM, charleslb wrote:
Freedom entails nondeterminism and the potential for the mutually self-creative and mutually cosmically-creative members of the universe to select among different creative options and produce creatively diverse and nondetermined outcomes. As you might have noted, the key word here is "creative". That is, creativity is the fundamental nature of existence; and freedom, free-creative choice, creative self-determination, is the essence of creativity.

u dont know what the freking heck ur talking about charless. a bunch of nonsese if u ask me

Sorry if I've annoyed you. I was simply expanding the question of free will into that of ontological freedom, addressing the ontological foundations of freedom from the perspective of a Whiteheadian process conceptuality that features fundamentals such as creativity, mutually-creative occasions of creative experience, creative self-determination & freedom, etc. I.e., it's an ontological point of view which emphasizes creativity and freedom and which, alas, is quite alien to a great many modern scientistic minds. Yes, sorry for throwing such an alien ontology at you out of the blue. My bad.

oh honey, dont feel too bad.i know that being retarded isnt something u can help.


Let's see, I was not rude or insulting to you in the slightest, and yet you feel provoked and see fit to direct this kind of an uncivil and abusive response at me, one that's not only unkind to me but to mentally disabled individuals as well (yes, the use of the word "retarded" as an insult word is indeed quite insensitive to the mentally handicapped - not to mention that it makes one sound like an unsophisticated adolescent)? What a lovely and intelligent human being you are. Yes, I'm sure that we'll have many pleasant and fruitful discussions.

mhmmm if u dont say. oh darn, i dont get the same effect without my monicle and my nicke to flip.

Is your name Ian? I ask because I know someone named Ian who was dropped on his head by a child care provider when he was four and such an injury might perhaps account for the clinically moronic quality of your responses.
Yo, all of my subliterate conservative criticasters who find perusing and processing the sesquipedalian verbiage of my posts to be such a bothersome brain-taxing chore, I have a new nickname for you. Henceforth you shall be known as Pooh Bears. No, not for the obvious apt reasons, i.e., not because you're full of pooh, and not because of your ursine irritability. Rather, you put me in mind of an A.A. Milne quote, "I am a Bear of Very Little Brain, and long words bother me". Love ya, Pooh Bears.
bananafana
Posts: 108
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10/12/2014 6:11:32 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/12/2014 6:09:40 PM, charleslb wrote:
At 10/12/2014 6:00:47 PM, bananafana wrote:
At 10/12/2014 5:59:30 PM, charleslb wrote:
At 10/12/2014 5:48:06 PM, bananafana wrote:
At 10/12/2014 4:35:57 PM, charleslb wrote:
At 10/12/2014 2:46:43 PM, bananafana wrote:
At 10/10/2014 5:13:31 PM, charleslb wrote:
Freedom entails nondeterminism and the potential for the mutually self-creative and mutually cosmically-creative members of the universe to select among different creative options and produce creatively diverse and nondetermined outcomes. As you might have noted, the key word here is "creative". That is, creativity is the fundamental nature of existence; and freedom, free-creative choice, creative self-determination, is the essence of creativity.

u dont know what the freking heck ur talking about charless. a bunch of nonsese if u ask me

Sorry if I've annoyed you. I was simply expanding the question of free will into that of ontological freedom, addressing the ontological foundations of freedom from the perspective of a Whiteheadian process conceptuality that features fundamentals such as creativity, mutually-creative occasions of creative experience, creative self-determination & freedom, etc. I.e., it's an ontological point of view which emphasizes creativity and freedom and which, alas, is quite alien to a great many modern scientistic minds. Yes, sorry for throwing such an alien ontology at you out of the blue. My bad.

oh honey, dont feel too bad.i know that being retarded isnt something u can help.


Let's see, I was not rude or insulting to you in the slightest, and yet you feel provoked and see fit to direct this kind of an uncivil and abusive response at me, one that's not only unkind to me but to mentally disabled individuals as well (yes, the use of the word "retarded" as an insult word is indeed quite insensitive to the mentally handicapped - not to mention that it makes one sound like an unsophisticated adolescent)? What a lovely and intelligent human being you are. Yes, I'm sure that we'll have many pleasant and fruitful discussions.

mhmmm if u dont say. oh darn, i dont get the same effect without my monicle and my nicke to flip.

Is your name Ian? I ask because I know someone named Ian who was dropped on his head by a child care provider when he was four and such an injury might perhaps account for the clinically moronic quality of your responses.

WELL NOWS WHO'S BEING RUDE?!?1 stop making fun of retards pls. ur very offensive.
thinker, philosopher, renasance-man.
charleslb
Posts: 4,740
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10/12/2014 6:14:54 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/12/2014 6:11:32 PM, bananafana wrote:
At 10/12/2014 6:09:40 PM, charleslb wrote:
At 10/12/2014 6:00:47 PM, bananafana wrote:
At 10/12/2014 5:59:30 PM, charleslb wrote:
At 10/12/2014 5:48:06 PM, bananafana wrote:
At 10/12/2014 4:35:57 PM, charleslb wrote:
At 10/12/2014 2:46:43 PM, bananafana wrote:
At 10/10/2014 5:13:31 PM, charleslb wrote:
Freedom entails nondeterminism and the potential for the mutually self-creative and mutually cosmically-creative members of the universe to select among different creative options and produce creatively diverse and nondetermined outcomes. As you might have noted, the key word here is "creative". That is, creativity is the fundamental nature of existence; and freedom, free-creative choice, creative self-determination, is the essence of creativity.

u dont know what the freking heck ur talking about charless. a bunch of nonsese if u ask me

Sorry if I've annoyed you. I was simply expanding the question of free will into that of ontological freedom, addressing the ontological foundations of freedom from the perspective of a Whiteheadian process conceptuality that features fundamentals such as creativity, mutually-creative occasions of creative experience, creative self-determination & freedom, etc. I.e., it's an ontological point of view which emphasizes creativity and freedom and which, alas, is quite alien to a great many modern scientistic minds. Yes, sorry for throwing such an alien ontology at you out of the blue. My bad.

oh honey, dont feel too bad.i know that being retarded isnt something u can help.


Let's see, I was not rude or insulting to you in the slightest, and yet you feel provoked and see fit to direct this kind of an uncivil and abusive response at me, one that's not only unkind to me but to mentally disabled individuals as well (yes, the use of the word "retarded" as an insult word is indeed quite insensitive to the mentally handicapped - not to mention that it makes one sound like an unsophisticated adolescent)? What a lovely and intelligent human being you are. Yes, I'm sure that we'll have many pleasant and fruitful discussions.

mhmmm if u dont say. oh darn, i dont get the same effect without my monicle and my nicke to flip.

Is your name Ian? I ask because I know someone named Ian who was dropped on his head by a child care provider when he was four and such an injury might perhaps account for the clinically moronic quality of your responses.

WELL NOWS WHO'S BEING RUDE?!?1 stop making fun of retards pls. ur very offensive.

Who initiated the rudeness, deary?
Yo, all of my subliterate conservative criticasters who find perusing and processing the sesquipedalian verbiage of my posts to be such a bothersome brain-taxing chore, I have a new nickname for you. Henceforth you shall be known as Pooh Bears. No, not for the obvious apt reasons, i.e., not because you're full of pooh, and not because of your ursine irritability. Rather, you put me in mind of an A.A. Milne quote, "I am a Bear of Very Little Brain, and long words bother me". Love ya, Pooh Bears.
bananafana
Posts: 108
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10/12/2014 6:16:41 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/12/2014 6:14:54 PM, charleslb wrote:
At 10/12/2014 6:11:32 PM, bananafana wrote:
At 10/12/2014 6:09:40 PM, charleslb wrote:
At 10/12/2014 6:00:47 PM, bananafana wrote:
At 10/12/2014 5:59:30 PM, charleslb wrote:
At 10/12/2014 5:48:06 PM, bananafana wrote:
At 10/12/2014 4:35:57 PM, charleslb wrote:
At 10/12/2014 2:46:43 PM, bananafana wrote:
At 10/10/2014 5:13:31 PM, charleslb wrote:
Freedom entails nondeterminism and the potential for the mutually self-creative and mutually cosmically-creative members of the universe to select among different creative options and produce creatively diverse and nondetermined outcomes. As you might have noted, the key word here is "creative". That is, creativity is the fundamental nature of existence; and freedom, free-creative choice, creative self-determination, is the essence of creativity.

u dont know what the freking heck ur talking about charless. a bunch of nonsese if u ask me

Sorry if I've annoyed you. I was simply expanding the question of free will into that of ontological freedom, addressing the ontological foundations of freedom from the perspective of a Whiteheadian process conceptuality that features fundamentals such as creativity, mutually-creative occasions of creative experience, creative self-determination & freedom, etc. I.e., it's an ontological point of view which emphasizes creativity and freedom and which, alas, is quite alien to a great many modern scientistic minds. Yes, sorry for throwing such an alien ontology at you out of the blue. My bad.

oh honey, dont feel too bad.i know that being retarded isnt something u can help.


Let's see, I was not rude or insulting to you in the slightest, and yet you feel provoked and see fit to direct this kind of an uncivil and abusive response at me, one that's not only unkind to me but to mentally disabled individuals as well (yes, the use of the word "retarded" as an insult word is indeed quite insensitive to the mentally handicapped - not to mention that it makes one sound like an unsophisticated adolescent)? What a lovely and intelligent human being you are. Yes, I'm sure that we'll have many pleasant and fruitful discussions.

mhmmm if u dont say. oh darn, i dont get the same effect without my monicle and my nicke to flip.

Is your name Ian? I ask because I know someone named Ian who was dropped on his head by a child care provider when he was four and such an injury might perhaps account for the clinically moronic quality of your responses.

WELL NOWS WHO'S BEING RUDE?!?1 stop making fun of retards pls. ur very offensive.

Who initiated the rudeness, deary?

you did. cause ur post caused me to be upset. stop trying to trick me.
thinker, philosopher, renasance-man.
charleslb
Posts: 4,740
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10/12/2014 6:22:38 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/12/2014 6:16:41 PM, bananafana wrote:
At 10/12/2014 6:14:54 PM, charleslb wrote:
At 10/12/2014 6:11:32 PM, bananafana wrote:
At 10/12/2014 6:09:40 PM, charleslb wrote:
At 10/12/2014 6:00:47 PM, bananafana wrote:
At 10/12/2014 5:59:30 PM, charleslb wrote:
At 10/12/2014 5:48:06 PM, bananafana wrote:
At 10/12/2014 4:35:57 PM, charleslb wrote:
At 10/12/2014 2:46:43 PM, bananafana wrote:
At 10/10/2014 5:13:31 PM, charleslb wrote:
Freedom entails nondeterminism and the potential for the mutually self-creative and mutually cosmically-creative members of the universe to select among different creative options and produce creatively diverse and nondetermined outcomes. As you might have noted, the key word here is "creative". That is, creativity is the fundamental nature of existence; and freedom, free-creative choice, creative self-determination, is the essence of creativity.

u dont know what the freking heck ur talking about charless. a bunch of nonsese if u ask me

Sorry if I've annoyed you. I was simply expanding the question of free will into that of ontological freedom, addressing the ontological foundations of freedom from the perspective of a Whiteheadian process conceptuality that features fundamentals such as creativity, mutually-creative occasions of creative experience, creative self-determination & freedom, etc. I.e., it's an ontological point of view which emphasizes creativity and freedom and which, alas, is quite alien to a great many modern scientistic minds. Yes, sorry for throwing such an alien ontology at you out of the blue. My bad.

oh honey, dont feel too bad.i know that being retarded isnt something u can help.


Let's see, I was not rude or insulting to you in the slightest, and yet you feel provoked and see fit to direct this kind of an uncivil and abusive response at me, one that's not only unkind to me but to mentally disabled individuals as well (yes, the use of the word "retarded" as an insult word is indeed quite insensitive to the mentally handicapped - not to mention that it makes one sound like an unsophisticated adolescent)? What a lovely and intelligent human being you are. Yes, I'm sure that we'll have many pleasant and fruitful discussions.

mhmmm if u dont say. oh darn, i dont get the same effect without my monicle and my nicke to flip.

Is your name Ian? I ask because I know someone named Ian who was dropped on his head by a child care provider when he was four and such an injury might perhaps account for the clinically moronic quality of your responses.

WELL NOWS WHO'S BEING RUDE?!?1 stop making fun of retards pls. ur very offensive.

Who initiated the rudeness, deary?

you did. cause ur post caused me to be upset. stop trying to trick me.

Okeydoke.
Yo, all of my subliterate conservative criticasters who find perusing and processing the sesquipedalian verbiage of my posts to be such a bothersome brain-taxing chore, I have a new nickname for you. Henceforth you shall be known as Pooh Bears. No, not for the obvious apt reasons, i.e., not because you're full of pooh, and not because of your ursine irritability. Rather, you put me in mind of an A.A. Milne quote, "I am a Bear of Very Little Brain, and long words bother me". Love ya, Pooh Bears.
bananafana
Posts: 108
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10/12/2014 6:23:24 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/12/2014 6:22:38 PM, charleslb wrote:
At 10/12/2014 6:16:41 PM, bananafana wrote:
At 10/12/2014 6:14:54 PM, charleslb wrote:
At 10/12/2014 6:11:32 PM, bananafana wrote:
At 10/12/2014 6:09:40 PM, charleslb wrote:
At 10/12/2014 6:00:47 PM, bananafana wrote:
At 10/12/2014 5:59:30 PM, charleslb wrote:
At 10/12/2014 5:48:06 PM, bananafana wrote:
At 10/12/2014 4:35:57 PM, charleslb wrote:
At 10/12/2014 2:46:43 PM, bananafana wrote:
At 10/10/2014 5:13:31 PM, charleslb wrote:
Freedom entails nondeterminism and the potential for the mutually self-creative and mutually cosmically-creative members of the universe to select among different creative options and produce creatively diverse and nondetermined outcomes. As you might have noted, the key word here is "creative". That is, creativity is the fundamental nature of existence; and freedom, free-creative choice, creative self-determination, is the essence of creativity.

u dont know what the freking heck ur talking about charless. a bunch of nonsese if u ask me

Sorry if I've annoyed you. I was simply expanding the question of free will into that of ontological freedom, addressing the ontological foundations of freedom from the perspective of a Whiteheadian process conceptuality that features fundamentals such as creativity, mutually-creative occasions of creative experience, creative self-determination & freedom, etc. I.e., it's an ontological point of view which emphasizes creativity and freedom and which, alas, is quite alien to a great many modern scientistic minds. Yes, sorry for throwing such an alien ontology at you out of the blue. My bad.

oh honey, dont feel too bad.i know that being retarded isnt something u can help.


Let's see, I was not rude or insulting to you in the slightest, and yet you feel provoked and see fit to direct this kind of an uncivil and abusive response at me, one that's not only unkind to me but to mentally disabled individuals as well (yes, the use of the word "retarded" as an insult word is indeed quite insensitive to the mentally handicapped - not to mention that it makes one sound like an unsophisticated adolescent)? What a lovely and intelligent human being you are. Yes, I'm sure that we'll have many pleasant and fruitful discussions.

mhmmm if u dont say. oh darn, i dont get the same effect without my monicle and my nicke to flip.

Is your name Ian? I ask because I know someone named Ian who was dropped on his head by a child care provider when he was four and such an injury might perhaps account for the clinically moronic quality of your responses.

WELL NOWS WHO'S BEING RUDE?!?1 stop making fun of retards pls. ur very offensive.

Who initiated the rudeness, deary?

you did. cause ur post caused me to be upset. stop trying to trick me.

Okeydoke.

stop trying to be silly. u come across as R.E.T.A.R.D.E.D
thinker, philosopher, renasance-man.
bossyburrito
Posts: 14,075
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10/13/2014 12:10:11 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/10/2014 2:23:48 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 10/10/2014 2:10:09 PM, Envisage wrote:
Does Free Will necessitate the Principle of alternative Possibilities to be true? To which I have given a modal representation below:


Yes. If everything was determined in advance, there would be no room for free will.

It seems to be the opposite, to me - if we assume that actors have free will, we assume that those actors choose their actions. The reason for the choice is self-decided - it would be absurd to think of a choice in a situation where the chooser didn't have the ability to choose. If free will exists, then it holds that actors need a reason for what they will, and there is absolutely no reason to believe that that reason would change if we "reran" the universe. The reason, after all, can only come about because of the actor's choice to choose that reason. There must be some reason why a reason is chosen - if not, choice is really just a coin-flip, and I would hardly call a coin a being with free will.

If there is a reason for certain reasons, then it holds that, unless an entity were to be changed so fundamentally that it no longer accepts certain reasons for reasons, the entity would use the same process for choosing the reasons. As such, any "rerunning" of the universe in which the choices of actors change is a rerunning in which the universe itself is different - it is invalid to suggest that the two universes are comparable.

I don't think that this means that the universe was determined in advance, per se, but that, once it is known why willers willed in the way they did, there is a clear causal chain that can be seen. I think this question has more to do with time than anything. Before a choice is made, it is, by definition, not made . The willer had not willed, at that point. If the willer did have choice, then it would hold that there are possibilities - just that one of those possibilities would be the one chosen every time. There's no deeper significance behind it; it just is the way it is.

I hope that made any sense.
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"Some will sell their dreams for small desires
Or lose the race to rats
Get caught in ticking traps
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dylancatlow
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10/13/2014 5:10:50 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/13/2014 12:10:11 AM, bossyburrito wrote:
At 10/10/2014 2:23:48 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 10/10/2014 2:10:09 PM, Envisage wrote:
Does Free Will necessitate the Principle of alternative Possibilities to be true? To which I have given a modal representation below:


Yes. If everything was determined in advance, there would be no room for free will.

It seems to be the opposite, to me - if we assume that actors have free will, we assume that those actors choose their actions. The reason for the choice is self-decided - it would be absurd to think of a choice in a situation where the chooser didn't have the ability to choose. If free will exists, then it holds that actors need a reason for what they will, and there is absolutely no reason to believe that that reason would change if we "reran" the universe.

There's no reason to believe that the reason would change if it were a product of external conditions. But the whole point of free will is that choices are self-determined. That is, the "reason" is attributable only to itself. There is no "selection process" involved because that would amount to determinism or external causality. Thus, free will appears random from an external vantage, but from an internal vantage it appears determined.

The reason, after all, can only come about because of the actor's choice to choose that reason. There must be some reason why a reason is chosen - if not, choice is really just a coin-flip, and I would hardly call a coin a being with free will.

In the case of free will, the "reason" is shaped like a causal loop. In other words, the choice amounts to a state which causes itself to cause itself.

The willer had not willed, at that point. If the willer did have choice, then it would hold that there are possibilities - just that one of those possibilities would be the one chosen every time. There's no deeper significance behind it; it just is the way it is.

Then the other "possibilities" are not actually possibilities, but only appear to be possibilities.


I hope that made any sense.

I'd like to know how how you think free will fits into all of this. Because I don't see how free will could exist if our "will" is itself determined. Wouldn't free will just be an illusion at that point?
dylancatlow
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10/13/2014 5:18:00 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/13/2014 12:10:11 AM, bossyburrito wrote:
At 10/10/2014 2:23:48 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 10/10/2014 2:10:09 PM, Envisage wrote:

In other words, the reason that a person with free will chooses possibility A and not possibility B would be contained within A.