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God & Objective Morality

dylancatlow
Posts: 12,252
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11/3/2014 11:06:56 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Some people reject that God's morality would constitute an objective moral standard. They maintain that God's morality would be no less subjective than anyone's. However, this is not a valid position. For unlike most subjects, whose minds are embedded in reality and are therefore capable of nonobjective notions, God's mind embodies reality, and is therefore the "limit" of objectivity. God cannot be wrong about anything, since "right" is defined by what exists, and God is what exists. If God thinks that that something is true, then it must be true, since truth is what God thinks. There can be no distinction between the two so long as we are still dealing with the concept of God.
ethang5
Posts: 4,117
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11/3/2014 12:35:44 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/3/2014 11:06:56 AM, dylancatlow wrote:
Some people reject that God's morality would constitute an objective moral standard. They maintain that God's morality would be no less subjective than anyone's. However, this is not a valid position. For unlike most subjects, whose minds are embedded in reality and are therefore capable of nonobjective notions, God's mind embodies reality, and is therefore the "limit" of objectivity. God cannot be wrong about anything, since "right" is defined by what exists, and God is what exists. If God thinks that that something is true, then it must be true, since truth is what God thinks. There can be no distinction between the two so long as we are still dealing with the concept of God.

I believe you are correct, but atheists will not like your definition of God, and will object to it simply because it make Him truly objective. They can't have that.
Skyangel
Posts: 8,234
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11/3/2014 4:21:39 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/3/2014 11:06:56 AM, dylancatlow wrote:
Some people reject that God's morality would constitute an objective moral standard. They maintain that God's morality would be no less subjective than anyone's. However, this is not a valid position. For unlike most subjects, whose minds are embedded in reality and are therefore capable of nonobjective notions, God's mind embodies reality, and is therefore the "limit" of objectivity. God cannot be wrong about anything, since "right" is defined by what exists, and God is what exists. If God thinks that that something is true, then it must be true, since truth is what God thinks. There can be no distinction between the two so long as we are still dealing with the concept of God.

When you say "God is what exists", are you defining God as everything in existence?
If so, everything in existence obviously does not have a mind so how can it think?
If not, are you claiming some supernatural being exists and that supernatural entity has morals and all its morals are objective rather than subject to its own mind and thoughts?
Skyangel
Posts: 8,234
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11/3/2014 4:22:52 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/3/2014 12:35:44 PM, ethang5 wrote:
At 11/3/2014 11:06:56 AM, dylancatlow wrote:
Some people reject that God's morality would constitute an objective moral standard. They maintain that God's morality would be no less subjective than anyone's. However, this is not a valid position. For unlike most subjects, whose minds are embedded in reality and are therefore capable of nonobjective notions, God's mind embodies reality, and is therefore the "limit" of objectivity. God cannot be wrong about anything, since "right" is defined by what exists, and God is what exists. If God thinks that that something is true, then it must be true, since truth is what God thinks. There can be no distinction between the two so long as we are still dealing with the concept of God.

I believe you are correct, but atheists will not like your definition of God, and will object to it simply because it make Him truly objective. They can't have that.

There is no clear definition of God in the OP.
bossyburrito
Posts: 14,075
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11/3/2014 6:33:12 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Amen.
#UnbanTheMadman

"Some will sell their dreams for small desires
Or lose the race to rats
Get caught in ticking traps
And start to dream of somewhere
To relax their restless flight
Somewhere out of a memory of lighted streets on quiet nights..."

~ Rush
Double_R
Posts: 4,886
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11/3/2014 8:37:12 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/3/2014 11:06:56 AM, dylancatlow wrote:
Some people reject that God's morality would constitute an objective moral standard. They maintain that God's morality would be no less subjective than anyone's. However, this is not a valid position. For unlike most subjects, whose minds are embedded in reality and are therefore capable of nonobjective notions, God's mind embodies reality, and is therefore the "limit" of objectivity. God cannot be wrong about anything, since "right" is defined by what exists, and God is what exists. If God thinks that that something is true, then it must be true, since truth is what God thinks. There can be no distinction between the two so long as we are still dealing with the concept of God.

Can God change his mind about what is right or wrong?
dylancatlow
Posts: 12,252
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11/3/2014 8:51:56 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/3/2014 8:37:12 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 11/3/2014 11:06:56 AM, dylancatlow wrote:
Some people reject that God's morality would constitute an objective moral standard. They maintain that God's morality would be no less subjective than anyone's. However, this is not a valid position. For unlike most subjects, whose minds are embedded in reality and are therefore capable of nonobjective notions, God's mind embodies reality, and is therefore the "limit" of objectivity. God cannot be wrong about anything, since "right" is defined by what exists, and God is what exists. If God thinks that that something is true, then it must be true, since truth is what God thinks. There can be no distinction between the two so long as we are still dealing with the concept of God.

Can God change his mind about what is right or wrong?

No. Such a change would either imply that God is not omnibenevolent or that he is not omniscient. There can be no reason that God would think to change his mind that he wouldn't have already thought of.
jodybirdy
Posts: 2,089
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11/3/2014 9:01:59 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/3/2014 8:51:56 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 11/3/2014 8:37:12 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 11/3/2014 11:06:56 AM, dylancatlow wrote:
Some people reject that God's morality would constitute an objective moral standard. They maintain that God's morality would be no less subjective than anyone's. However, this is not a valid position. For unlike most subjects, whose minds are embedded in reality and are therefore capable of nonobjective notions, God's mind embodies reality, and is therefore the "limit" of objectivity. God cannot be wrong about anything, since "right" is defined by what exists, and God is what exists. If God thinks that that something is true, then it must be true, since truth is what God thinks. There can be no distinction between the two so long as we are still dealing with the concept of God.

Can God change his mind about what is right or wrong?

No. Such a change would either imply that God is not omnibenevolent or that he is not omniscient. There can be no reason that God would think to change his mind that he wouldn't have already thought of.

Makes perfect sense to me.
A rock pile ceases to be a rock pile the moment a single man contemplates it, bearing within him the image of a cathedral."
Double_R
Posts: 4,886
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11/3/2014 9:08:30 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/3/2014 8:51:56 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 11/3/2014 8:37:12 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 11/3/2014 11:06:56 AM, dylancatlow wrote:
Some people reject that God's morality would constitute an objective moral standard. They maintain that God's morality would be no less subjective than anyone's. However, this is not a valid position. For unlike most subjects, whose minds are embedded in reality and are therefore capable of nonobjective notions, God's mind embodies reality, and is therefore the "limit" of objectivity. God cannot be wrong about anything, since "right" is defined by what exists, and God is what exists. If God thinks that that something is true, then it must be true, since truth is what God thinks. There can be no distinction between the two so long as we are still dealing with the concept of God.

Can God change his mind about what is right or wrong?

No. Such a change would either imply that God is not omnibenevolent or that he is not omniscient. There can be no reason that God would think to change his mind that he wouldn't have already thought of.

The question was; Can God change his mind about what is right or wrong, not would he. To be clear, your answer is still no, right?
dylancatlow
Posts: 12,252
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11/3/2014 9:12:26 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/3/2014 9:08:30 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 11/3/2014 8:51:56 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 11/3/2014 8:37:12 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 11/3/2014 11:06:56 AM, dylancatlow wrote:
Some people reject that God's morality would constitute an objective moral standard. They maintain that God's morality would be no less subjective than anyone's. However, this is not a valid position. For unlike most subjects, whose minds are embedded in reality and are therefore capable of nonobjective notions, God's mind embodies reality, and is therefore the "limit" of objectivity. God cannot be wrong about anything, since "right" is defined by what exists, and God is what exists. If God thinks that that something is true, then it must be true, since truth is what God thinks. There can be no distinction between the two so long as we are still dealing with the concept of God.

Can God change his mind about what is right or wrong?

No. Such a change would either imply that God is not omnibenevolent or that he is not omniscient. There can be no reason that God would think to change his mind that he wouldn't have already thought of.

The question was; Can God change his mind about what is right or wrong, not would he. To be clear, your answer is still no, right?

He cannot change his mind because doing so would imply he is not God. Since God is God, he cannot do this.
Double_R
Posts: 4,886
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11/3/2014 9:18:06 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/3/2014 9:12:26 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 11/3/2014 9:08:30 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 11/3/2014 8:51:56 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 11/3/2014 8:37:12 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 11/3/2014 11:06:56 AM, dylancatlow wrote:
Some people reject that God's morality would constitute an objective moral standard. They maintain that God's morality would be no less subjective than anyone's. However, this is not a valid position. For unlike most subjects, whose minds are embedded in reality and are therefore capable of nonobjective notions, God's mind embodies reality, and is therefore the "limit" of objectivity. God cannot be wrong about anything, since "right" is defined by what exists, and God is what exists. If God thinks that that something is true, then it must be true, since truth is what God thinks. There can be no distinction between the two so long as we are still dealing with the concept of God.

Can God change his mind about what is right or wrong?

No. Such a change would either imply that God is not omnibenevolent or that he is not omniscient. There can be no reason that God would think to change his mind that he wouldn't have already thought of.

The question was; Can God change his mind about what is right or wrong, not would he. To be clear, your answer is still no, right?

He cannot change his mind because doing so would imply he is not God. Since God is God, he cannot do this.

If God cannot change his mind on what is right or wrong then he is not the ultimate source of morality.
dylancatlow
Posts: 12,252
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11/3/2014 9:46:52 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/3/2014 9:18:06 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 11/3/2014 9:12:26 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 11/3/2014 9:08:30 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 11/3/2014 8:51:56 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 11/3/2014 8:37:12 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 11/3/2014 11:06:56 AM, dylancatlow wrote:
Some people reject that God's morality would constitute an objective moral standard. They maintain that God's morality would be no less subjective than anyone's. However, this is not a valid position. For unlike most subjects, whose minds are embedded in reality and are therefore capable of nonobjective notions, God's mind embodies reality, and is therefore the "limit" of objectivity. God cannot be wrong about anything, since "right" is defined by what exists, and God is what exists. If God thinks that that something is true, then it must be true, since truth is what God thinks. There can be no distinction between the two so long as we are still dealing with the concept of God.

Can God change his mind about what is right or wrong?

No. Such a change would either imply that God is not omnibenevolent or that he is not omniscient. There can be no reason that God would think to change his mind that he wouldn't have already thought of.

The question was; Can God change his mind about what is right or wrong, not would he. To be clear, your answer is still no, right?

He cannot change his mind because doing so would imply he is not God. Since God is God, he cannot do this.

If God cannot change his mind on what is right or wrong then he is not the ultimate source of morality.

That doesn't follow at all.
dylancatlow
Posts: 12,252
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11/3/2014 11:27:58 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/3/2014 9:18:06 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 11/3/2014 9:12:26 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 11/3/2014 9:08:30 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 11/3/2014 8:51:56 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 11/3/2014 8:37:12 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 11/3/2014 11:06:56 AM, dylancatlow wrote:
Some people reject that God's morality would constitute an objective moral standard. They maintain that God's morality would be no less subjective than anyone's. However, this is not a valid position. For unlike most subjects, whose minds are embedded in reality and are therefore capable of nonobjective notions, God's mind embodies reality, and is therefore the "limit" of objectivity. God cannot be wrong about anything, since "right" is defined by what exists, and God is what exists. If God thinks that that something is true, then it must be true, since truth is what God thinks. There can be no distinction between the two so long as we are still dealing with the concept of God.

Can God change his mind about what is right or wrong?

No. Such a change would either imply that God is not omnibenevolent or that he is not omniscient. There can be no reason that God would think to change his mind that he wouldn't have already thought of.

The question was; Can God change his mind about what is right or wrong, not would he. To be clear, your answer is still no, right?

He cannot change his mind because doing so would imply he is not God. Since God is God, he cannot do this.

If God cannot change his mind on what is right or wrong then he is not the ultimate source of morality.

God determines morality from a global perspective i.e., once and for all time, which means it's invariant from within time.
Double_R
Posts: 4,886
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11/4/2014 10:14:04 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/3/2014 11:27:58 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 11/3/2014 9:18:06 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 11/3/2014 9:12:26 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 11/3/2014 9:08:30 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 11/3/2014 8:51:56 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 11/3/2014 8:37:12 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 11/3/2014 11:06:56 AM, dylancatlow wrote:
Some people reject that God's morality would constitute an objective moral standard. They maintain that God's morality would be no less subjective than anyone's. However, this is not a valid position. For unlike most subjects, whose minds are embedded in reality and are therefore capable of nonobjective notions, God's mind embodies reality, and is therefore the "limit" of objectivity. God cannot be wrong about anything, since "right" is defined by what exists, and God is what exists. If God thinks that that something is true, then it must be true, since truth is what God thinks. There can be no distinction between the two so long as we are still dealing with the concept of God.

Can God change his mind about what is right or wrong?

No. Such a change would either imply that God is not omnibenevolent or that he is not omniscient. There can be no reason that God would think to change his mind that he wouldn't have already thought of.

The question was; Can God change his mind about what is right or wrong, not would he. To be clear, your answer is still no, right?

He cannot change his mind because doing so would imply he is not God. Since God is God, he cannot do this.

If God cannot change his mind on what is right or wrong then he is not the ultimate source of morality.

God determines morality from a global perspective i.e., once and for all time, which means it's invariant from within time.

If God cannot change his mind about morality then he is not in control of his decision making. And if he is unable to break a set of rules or change a set of standards then it does not matter if he determined them, he is still not the ultimate force behind them. You cannot be the ultimate force behind something that you are subject to.
dylancatlow
Posts: 12,252
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11/4/2014 10:20:09 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/4/2014 10:14:04 AM, Double_R wrote:
At 11/3/2014 11:27:58 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 11/3/2014 9:18:06 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 11/3/2014 9:12:26 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 11/3/2014 9:08:30 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 11/3/2014 8:51:56 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 11/3/2014 8:37:12 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 11/3/2014 11:06:56 AM, dylancatlow wrote:
Some people reject that God's morality would constitute an objective moral standard. They maintain that God's morality would be no less subjective than anyone's. However, this is not a valid position. For unlike most subjects, whose minds are embedded in reality and are therefore capable of nonobjective notions, God's mind embodies reality, and is therefore the "limit" of objectivity. God cannot be wrong about anything, since "right" is defined by what exists, and God is what exists. If God thinks that that something is true, then it must be true, since truth is what God thinks. There can be no distinction between the two so long as we are still dealing with the concept of God.

Can God change his mind about what is right or wrong?

No. Such a change would either imply that God is not omnibenevolent or that he is not omniscient. There can be no reason that God would think to change his mind that he wouldn't have already thought of.

The question was; Can God change his mind about what is right or wrong, not would he. To be clear, your answer is still no, right?

He cannot change his mind because doing so would imply he is not God. Since God is God, he cannot do this.

If God cannot change his mind on what is right or wrong then he is not the ultimate source of morality.

God determines morality from a global perspective i.e., once and for all time, which means it's invariant from within time.

If God cannot change his mind about morality then he is not in control of his decision making. And if he is unable to break a set of rules or change a set of standards then it does not matter if he determined them, he is still not the ultimate force behind them. You cannot be the ultimate force behind something that you are subject to.

You're attributing the fact that God cannot change his mind to the idea that God is not in control. Like I said, God cannot change his mind because the manner in which his mind is made precludes the morality of change.
Double_R
Posts: 4,886
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11/4/2014 10:26:41 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/4/2014 10:20:09 AM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 11/4/2014 10:14:04 AM, Double_R wrote:
If God cannot change his mind about morality then he is not in control of his decision making. And if he is unable to break a set of rules or change a set of standards then it does not matter if he determined them, he is still not the ultimate force behind them. You cannot be the ultimate force behind something that you are subject to.

You're attributing the fact that God cannot change his mind to the idea that God is not in control. Like I said, God cannot change his mind because the manner in which his mind is made precludes the morality of change.

I am attributing it to him not being in control because that is exactly what the questions asks. This is why I repeated myself before proceeding. So once again, does he or does he not have the power to change what is right or wrong? Is it or is it not within his ability to make that choice? And if it is then would you agree that the fact that he doesn't, means that he chooses not to?

And BTW, what is the "morality of change"?
dylancatlow
Posts: 12,252
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11/4/2014 10:35:21 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/4/2014 10:26:41 AM, Double_R wrote:
At 11/4/2014 10:20:09 AM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 11/4/2014 10:14:04 AM, Double_R wrote:
If God cannot change his mind about morality then he is not in control of his decision making. And if he is unable to break a set of rules or change a set of standards then it does not matter if he determined them, he is still not the ultimate force behind them. You cannot be the ultimate force behind something that you are subject to.

You're attributing the fact that God cannot change his mind to the idea that God is not in control. Like I said, God cannot change his mind because the manner in which his mind is made precludes the morality of change.

I am attributing it to him not being in control because that is exactly what the questions asks. This is why I repeated myself before proceeding. So once again, does he or does he not have the power to change what is right or wrong? Is it or is it not within his ability to make that choice? And if it is then would you agree that the fact that he doesn't, means that he chooses not to?

He cannot change his mind because doing so would imply he is not God. I.e., his mind is made up such that there can be no reason that would compel him to change it since it's determined from a global perspective. It's like asking "can God have what he doesn't want"? It's not a legitimate question.


And BTW, what is the "morality of change"?

The morality of God changing his moral standard according to his moral standard.
Double_R
Posts: 4,886
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11/4/2014 10:41:30 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/4/2014 10:35:21 AM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 11/4/2014 10:26:41 AM, Double_R wrote:
At 11/4/2014 10:20:09 AM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 11/4/2014 10:14:04 AM, Double_R wrote:
If God cannot change his mind about morality then he is not in control of his decision making. And if he is unable to break a set of rules or change a set of standards then it does not matter if he determined them, he is still not the ultimate force behind them. You cannot be the ultimate force behind something that you are subject to.

You're attributing the fact that God cannot change his mind to the idea that God is not in control. Like I said, God cannot change his mind because the manner in which his mind is made precludes the morality of change.

I am attributing it to him not being in control because that is exactly what the questions asks. This is why I repeated myself before proceeding. So once again, does he or does he not have the power to change what is right or wrong? Is it or is it not within his ability to make that choice? And if it is then would you agree that the fact that he doesn't, means that he chooses not to?


He cannot change his mind because doing so would imply he is not God. I.e., his mind is made up such that there can be no reason that would compel him to change it since it's determined from a global perspective. It's like asking "can God have what he doesn't want"? It's not a legitimate question.

It's a perfectly legitimate question, no mater how hard you try to make it seem as if it is not. You are again conflating the idea of whether God would change his mind to whether he can. God can have what he doesn't want because that is within his power, God would never attain what he doesn't want because he doesn't want it.

So again, does God have the power to change his mind. This is a Yes or No question and it has absolutely nothing to do with what he wants, what he is already decided on or whatever other ideas you are trying to jumble into this.

And BTW, what is the "morality of change"?

The morality of God changing his moral standard according to his moral standard.

So that statement is worthless, since the question is about whether it is within his power to change that moral standard.
dylancatlow
Posts: 12,252
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11/4/2014 10:47:10 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/4/2014 10:41:30 AM, Double_R wrote:
At 11/4/2014 10:35:21 AM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 11/4/2014 10:26:41 AM, Double_R wrote:
At 11/4/2014 10:20:09 AM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 11/4/2014 10:14:04 AM, Double_R wrote:
If God cannot change his mind about morality then he is not in control of his decision making. And if he is unable to break a set of rules or change a set of standards then it does not matter if he determined them, he is still not the ultimate force behind them. You cannot be the ultimate force behind something that you are subject to.

You're attributing the fact that God cannot change his mind to the idea that God is not in control. Like I said, God cannot change his mind because the manner in which his mind is made precludes the morality of change.

I am attributing it to him not being in control because that is exactly what the questions asks. This is why I repeated myself before proceeding. So once again, does he or does he not have the power to change what is right or wrong? Is it or is it not within his ability to make that choice? And if it is then would you agree that the fact that he doesn't, means that he chooses not to?


He cannot change his mind because doing so would imply he is not God. I.e., his mind is made up such that there can be no reason that would compel him to change it since it's determined from a global perspective. It's like asking "can God have what he doesn't want"? It's not a legitimate question.

It's a perfectly legitimate question, no mater how hard you try to make it seem as if it is not. You are again conflating the idea of whether God would change his mind to whether he can. God can have what he doesn't want because that is within his power, God would never attain what he doesn't want because he doesn't want it.

God cannot change his mind because his mind is made up such that changing his mind would be immoral according to his moral standard. God cannot have what he doesn't want, because then he would no longer be God (he would no longer be omnibenevolent).


So again, does God have the power to change his mind. This is a Yes or No question and it has absolutely nothing to do with what he wants, what he is already decided on or whatever other ideas you are trying to jumble into this.

And BTW, what is the "morality of change"?

The morality of God changing his moral standard according to his moral standard.

So that statement is worthless, since the question is about whether it is within his power to change that moral standard.

Asking whether it's in his power to change his moral standard is like asking whether it's in his power to create and not create the moon at the same time. It's not in his power to undermine his own power.
dylancatlow
Posts: 12,252
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11/4/2014 10:48:20 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/4/2014 10:41:30 AM, Double_R wrote:
At 11/4/2014 10:35:21 AM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 11/4/2014 10:26:41 AM, Double_R wrote:
At 11/4/2014 10:20:09 AM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 11/4/2014 10:14:04 AM, Double_R wrote:
If God cannot change his mind about morality then he is not in control of his decision making. And if he is unable to break a set of rules or change a set of standards then it does not matter if he determined them, he is still not the ultimate force behind them. You cannot be the ultimate force behind something that you are subject to.

You're attributing the fact that God cannot change his mind to the idea that God is not in control. Like I said, God cannot change his mind because the manner in which his mind is made precludes the morality of change.

I am attributing it to him not being in control because that is exactly what the questions asks. This is why I repeated myself before proceeding. So once again, does he or does he not have the power to change what is right or wrong? Is it or is it not within his ability to make that choice? And if it is then would you agree that the fact that he doesn't, means that he chooses not to?


He cannot change his mind because doing so would imply he is not God. I.e., his mind is made up such that there can be no reason that would compel him to change it since it's determined from a global perspective. It's like asking "can God have what he doesn't want"? It's not a legitimate question.

It's a perfectly legitimate question, no mater how hard you try to make it seem as if it is not. You are again conflating the idea of whether God would change his mind to whether he can. God can have what he doesn't want because that is within his power, God would never attain what he doesn't want because he doesn't want it.

So again, does God have the power to change his mind. This is a Yes or No question and it has absolutely nothing to do with what he wants, what he is already decided on or whatever other ideas you are trying to jumble into this.

The answer is no by the way.


And BTW, what is the "morality of change"?

The morality of God changing his moral standard according to his moral standard.

So that statement is worthless, since the question is about whether it is within his power to change that moral standard.
sdavio
Posts: 1,800
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11/4/2014 10:57:11 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/3/2014 11:06:56 AM, dylancatlow wrote:
Some people reject that God's morality would constitute an objective moral standard. They maintain that God's morality would be no less subjective than anyone's. However, this is not a valid position. For unlike most subjects, whose minds are embedded in reality and are therefore capable of nonobjective notions, God's mind embodies reality, and is therefore the "limit" of objectivity. God cannot be wrong about anything, since "right" is defined by what exists, and God is what exists. If God thinks that that something is true, then it must be true, since truth is what God thinks. There can be no distinction between the two so long as we are still dealing with the concept of God.

This would make the whole concept of morality redundant because God is omnipotent; therefore whatever he prefers to occur, immediately occurs; and what he prefers is moral, therefore everything which exists is equally moral unilaterally.
"Logic is the money of the mind." - Karl Marx
Double_R
Posts: 4,886
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11/4/2014 10:57:46 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/4/2014 10:47:10 AM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 11/4/2014 10:41:30 AM, Double_R wrote:
So that statement is worthless, since the question is about whether it is within his power to change that moral standard.

Asking whether it's in his power to change his moral standard is like asking whether it's in his power to create and not create the moon at the same time. It's not in his power to undermine his own power.

No, the two are nothing alike. You are trying to use the concept of change in a timeless existence to dodge this point. In post 13 you stated that God "determines" the standard of morality. Determining anything requires time, because it requires one to go from a state of being undetermined to a state of being determined. If that is not what happened in your claim then you are not speaking English.

So if determining something is subject to time then your moon analogy is irrelevant. It is not like creating and not creating the moon at the same time, it is like creating the moon then deciding to wipe it out of existence afterward. Even though this may contradict other aspects of God, it is still within his power. And if he is the ultimate source and authority of morality then changing it would also be within his power.
dylancatlow
Posts: 12,252
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11/4/2014 11:05:00 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/4/2014 10:57:46 AM, Double_R wrote:
At 11/4/2014 10:47:10 AM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 11/4/2014 10:41:30 AM, Double_R wrote:
So that statement is worthless, since the question is about whether it is within his power to change that moral standard.

Asking whether it's in his power to change his moral standard is like asking whether it's in his power to create and not create the moon at the same time. It's not in his power to undermine his own power.

No, the two are nothing alike. You are trying to use the concept of change in a timeless existence to dodge this point. In post 13 you stated that God "determines" the standard of morality. Determining anything requires time, because it requires one to go from a state of being undetermined to a state of being determined. If that is not what happened in your claim then you are not speaking English.

The undetermined state doesn't exist, since God is reality. So no, it's not as if there's no God and then there's God. The creation event (and the determination of morality) is distributed over all of time.

So if determining something is subject to time then your moon analogy is irrelevant. It is not like creating and not creating the moon at the same time, it is like creating the moon then deciding to wipe it out of existence afterward. Even though this may contradict other aspects of God, it is still within his power. And if he is the ultimate source and authority of morality then changing it would also be within his power.

God does not have the power to contradict his own aspects. It's as simple as that.
dylancatlow
Posts: 12,252
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11/4/2014 11:08:45 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/4/2014 10:57:11 AM, sdavio wrote:
At 11/3/2014 11:06:56 AM, dylancatlow wrote:
Some people reject that God's morality would constitute an objective moral standard. They maintain that God's morality would be no less subjective than anyone's. However, this is not a valid position. For unlike most subjects, whose minds are embedded in reality and are therefore capable of nonobjective notions, God's mind embodies reality, and is therefore the "limit" of objectivity. God cannot be wrong about anything, since "right" is defined by what exists, and God is what exists. If God thinks that that something is true, then it must be true, since truth is what God thinks. There can be no distinction between the two so long as we are still dealing with the concept of God.

This would make the whole concept of morality redundant because God is omnipotent; therefore whatever he prefers to occur, immediately occurs; and what he prefers is moral, therefore everything which exists is equally moral unilaterally.

Since God is self-contained, he must self-select from an internally generated potential, and this potential is free to be out of sync with God's morality from a localized vantage. From God's perspective, evil never existed except as possibility since it is retroactively removed from reality.
sdavio
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11/4/2014 11:15:28 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/4/2014 11:08:45 AM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 11/4/2014 10:57:11 AM, sdavio wrote:
At 11/3/2014 11:06:56 AM, dylancatlow wrote:
Some people reject that God's morality would constitute an objective moral standard. They maintain that God's morality would be no less subjective than anyone's. However, this is not a valid position. For unlike most subjects, whose minds are embedded in reality and are therefore capable of nonobjective notions, God's mind embodies reality, and is therefore the "limit" of objectivity. God cannot be wrong about anything, since "right" is defined by what exists, and God is what exists. If God thinks that that something is true, then it must be true, since truth is what God thinks. There can be no distinction between the two so long as we are still dealing with the concept of God.

This would make the whole concept of morality redundant because God is omnipotent; therefore whatever he prefers to occur, immediately occurs; and what he prefers is moral, therefore everything which exists is equally moral unilaterally.

Since God is self-contained, he must self-select from an internally generated potential, and this potential is free to be out of sync with God's morality from a localized vantage. From God's perspective, evil never existed except as possibility since it is retroactively removed from reality.

How can God internally generate something he is out of sync with?
"Logic is the money of the mind." - Karl Marx
dylancatlow
Posts: 12,252
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11/4/2014 11:17:59 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/4/2014 11:15:28 AM, sdavio wrote:
At 11/4/2014 11:08:45 AM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 11/4/2014 10:57:11 AM, sdavio wrote:
At 11/3/2014 11:06:56 AM, dylancatlow wrote:
Some people reject that God's morality would constitute an objective moral standard. They maintain that God's morality would be no less subjective than anyone's. However, this is not a valid position. For unlike most subjects, whose minds are embedded in reality and are therefore capable of nonobjective notions, God's mind embodies reality, and is therefore the "limit" of objectivity. God cannot be wrong about anything, since "right" is defined by what exists, and God is what exists. If God thinks that that something is true, then it must be true, since truth is what God thinks. There can be no distinction between the two so long as we are still dealing with the concept of God.

This would make the whole concept of morality redundant because God is omnipotent; therefore whatever he prefers to occur, immediately occurs; and what he prefers is moral, therefore everything which exists is equally moral unilaterally.

Since God is self-contained, he must self-select from an internally generated potential, and this potential is free to be out of sync with God's morality from a localized vantage. From God's perspective, evil never existed except as possibility since it is retroactively removed from reality.

How can God internally generate something he is out of sync with?

From God's perspective, it is only potential. It is not yet part of reality in any absolute sense.
sdavio
Posts: 1,800
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11/4/2014 11:20:07 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/4/2014 11:17:59 AM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 11/4/2014 11:15:28 AM, sdavio wrote:
At 11/4/2014 11:08:45 AM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 11/4/2014 10:57:11 AM, sdavio wrote:
At 11/3/2014 11:06:56 AM, dylancatlow wrote:
Some people reject that God's morality would constitute an objective moral standard. They maintain that God's morality would be no less subjective than anyone's. However, this is not a valid position. For unlike most subjects, whose minds are embedded in reality and are therefore capable of nonobjective notions, God's mind embodies reality, and is therefore the "limit" of objectivity. God cannot be wrong about anything, since "right" is defined by what exists, and God is what exists. If God thinks that that something is true, then it must be true, since truth is what God thinks. There can be no distinction between the two so long as we are still dealing with the concept of God.

This would make the whole concept of morality redundant because God is omnipotent; therefore whatever he prefers to occur, immediately occurs; and what he prefers is moral, therefore everything which exists is equally moral unilaterally.

Since God is self-contained, he must self-select from an internally generated potential, and this potential is free to be out of sync with God's morality from a localized vantage. From God's perspective, evil never existed except as possibility since it is retroactively removed from reality.

How can God internally generate something he is out of sync with?

From God's perspective, it is only potential. It is not yet part of reality in any absolute sense.

Could you define what you mean by 'potential' in this context?
"Logic is the money of the mind." - Karl Marx
Double_R
Posts: 4,886
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11/4/2014 11:24:43 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/4/2014 11:05:00 AM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 11/4/2014 10:57:46 AM, Double_R wrote:
No, the two are nothing alike. You are trying to use the concept of change in a timeless existence to dodge this point. In post 13 you stated that God "determines" the standard of morality. Determining anything requires time, because it requires one to go from a state of being undetermined to a state of being determined. If that is not what happened in your claim then you are not speaking English.

The undetermined state doesn't exist, since God is reality. So no, it's not as if there's no God and then there's God. The creation event (and the determination of morality) is distributed over all of time.

If there isn't and never was an undetermined state, then God did not determine the standards of morality. A determination requires an undetermined state to precede it. That is very simple English. Therefore according to everything you have argued; God did not determine morality and does not have the power to change it. That is not a convincing case that he is the ultimate source and authority of morality.
dylancatlow
Posts: 12,252
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11/4/2014 11:24:54 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/4/2014 11:20:07 AM, sdavio wrote:
At 11/4/2014 11:17:59 AM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 11/4/2014 11:15:28 AM, sdavio wrote:
At 11/4/2014 11:08:45 AM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 11/4/2014 10:57:11 AM, sdavio wrote:
At 11/3/2014 11:06:56 AM, dylancatlow wrote:
Some people reject that God's morality would constitute an objective moral standard. They maintain that God's morality would be no less subjective than anyone's. However, this is not a valid position. For unlike most subjects, whose minds are embedded in reality and are therefore capable of nonobjective notions, God's mind embodies reality, and is therefore the "limit" of objectivity. God cannot be wrong about anything, since "right" is defined by what exists, and God is what exists. If God thinks that that something is true, then it must be true, since truth is what God thinks. There can be no distinction between the two so long as we are still dealing with the concept of God.

This would make the whole concept of morality redundant because God is omnipotent; therefore whatever he prefers to occur, immediately occurs; and what he prefers is moral, therefore everything which exists is equally moral unilaterally.

Since God is self-contained, he must self-select from an internally generated potential, and this potential is free to be out of sync with God's morality from a localized vantage. From God's perspective, evil never existed except as possibility since it is retroactively removed from reality.

How can God internally generate something he is out of sync with?

From God's perspective, it is only potential. It is not yet part of reality in any absolute sense.

Could you define what you mean by 'potential' in this context?

Possible configurations which may or may not be preserved.
dylancatlow
Posts: 12,252
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11/4/2014 11:28:10 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/4/2014 11:24:43 AM, Double_R wrote:
At 11/4/2014 11:05:00 AM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 11/4/2014 10:57:46 AM, Double_R wrote:
No, the two are nothing alike. You are trying to use the concept of change in a timeless existence to dodge this point. In post 13 you stated that God "determines" the standard of morality. Determining anything requires time, because it requires one to go from a state of being undetermined to a state of being determined. If that is not what happened in your claim then you are not speaking English.

The undetermined state doesn't exist, since God is reality. So no, it's not as if there's no God and then there's God. The creation event (and the determination of morality) is distributed over all of time.

If there isn't and never was an undetermined state, then God did not determine the standards of morality. A determination requires an undetermined state to precede it. That is very simple English. Therefore according to everything you have argued; God did not determine morality and does not have the power to change it. That is not a convincing case that he is the ultimate source and authority of morality.

The meaning of"determine" is not unavoidably associated with the time concept. So no, it not a matter of "simple English" as you'd like to pretend it is.