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Western Political and Moral Thought

Danielle
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1/3/2015 11:07:00 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
...stems from Christianity.

LMFAO this is so obviously wrong, yet YYW keeps insisting that it is a "historical fact" but of course refuses to accept my debate challenge and explain why. Of course I could easily prove (and every historian let alone philosopher and political scientist would agree) that this is certainly not true. Not only is Ancient Greece far more responsible for the overall premise of Western thought, but even other groups like the Hindus, Sumarians and other ancients contributed to both fields far earlier than the Christians. In fact they influenced the Jews who would later influence the Christians. I apologize if this comes off as sassy, but YYW rudely implied that I ought to "take a class" on this stuff when clearly he doesn't know basic 6th grade history yet has the audacity to fallaciously insult me while ignoring basic evidence. Clearly he refuses to debate me because he's wrong. If he's not wrong then I'm sure he will partner up with one of you to accept this challenge. If anyone is willing to defend YYWs "blatant fact" and historical truth, PM me and I will challenge you on the basis of me arguing that Western moral and political thought absolutely did not stem from Christianity.

http://www.debate.org...
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YYW
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1/3/2015 11:16:22 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/3/2015 11:07:00 AM, Danielle wrote:
...stems from Christianity.

LMFAO this is so obviously wrong, yet YYW keeps insisting that it is a "historical fact" but of course refuses to accept my debate challenge and explain why. Of course I could easily prove (and every historian let alone philosopher and political scientist would agree) that this is certainly not true. Not only is Ancient Greece far more responsible for the overall premise of Western thought, but even other groups like the Hindus, Sumarians and other ancients contributed to both fields far earlier than the Christians. In fact they influenced the Jews who would later influence the Christians. I apologize if this comes off as sassy, but YYW rudely implied that I ought to "take a class" on this stuff when clearly he doesn't know basic 6th grade history yet has the audacity to fallaciously insult me while ignoring basic evidence. Clearly he refuses to debate me because he's wrong. If he's not wrong then I'm sure he will partner up with one of you to accept this challenge. If anyone is willing to defend YYWs "blatant fact" and historical truth, PM me and I will challenge you on the basis of me arguing that Western moral and political thought absolutely did not stem from Christianity.

http://www.debate.org...
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YYW
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1/3/2015 11:46:44 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/3/2015 11:25:00 AM, Danielle wrote:
Come one, come all to defend YYW's position which is an obvious historical fact... anybody? Anybody?

Hurdy gurdy hurdy gurdy hurdy gurdy gurdy he sang....
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Danielle
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1/3/2015 11:48:01 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/3/2015 11:46:44 AM, YYW wrote:
At 1/3/2015 11:25:00 AM, Danielle wrote:
Come one, come all to defend YYW's position which is an obvious historical fact... anybody? Anybody?

Hurdy gurdy hurdy gurdy hurdy gurdy gurdy he sang....

Look at all of the people who agree with you!!!
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Danielle
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1/3/2015 11:48:34 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
They're everywhere... my god this thread is flooded with overwhelming support for YYW's obvious "historical facts."
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YYW
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1/3/2015 11:49:41 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/3/2015 11:48:34 AM, Danielle wrote:
They're everywhere... my god this thread is flooded with overwhelming support for YYW's obvious "historical facts."

Do you actually think that you are advancing your ideas with that comment?
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dylancatlow
Posts: 12,244
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1/3/2015 11:55:03 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/3/2015 11:49:41 AM, YYW wrote:
At 1/3/2015 11:48:34 AM, Danielle wrote:
They're everywhere... my god this thread is flooded with overwhelming support for YYW's obvious "historical facts."

Do you actually think that you are advancing your ideas with that comment?

She's obviously just trying to instigate a debate here
Danielle
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1/3/2015 11:56:07 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/3/2015 11:49:41 AM, YYW wrote:
Do you actually think that you are advancing your ideas with that comment?

No, I don't need to advance my ideas with commentary because I have actual evidence on my side. You have bare assertions and YouTube cartoons.
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Danielle
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1/3/2015 11:56:28 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/3/2015 11:55:03 AM, dylancatlow wrote:
She's obviously just trying to instigate a debate here

He won't accept the debate lololol will you? YYW can help you win it... he's sure of it.
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Skepsikyma
Posts: 8,280
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1/3/2015 12:18:15 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/3/2015 11:07:00 AM, Danielle wrote:
...stems from Christianity.

LMFAO this is so obviously wrong, yet YYW keeps insisting that it is a "historical fact" but of course refuses to accept my debate challenge and explain why. Of course I could easily prove (and every historian let alone philosopher and political scientist would agree) that this is certainly not true. Not only is Ancient Greece far more responsible for the overall premise of Western thought, but even other groups like the Hindus, Sumarians and other ancients contributed to both fields far earlier than the Christians. In fact they influenced the Jews who would later influence the Christians. I apologize if this comes off as sassy, but YYW rudely implied that I ought to "take a class" on this stuff when clearly he doesn't know basic 6th grade history yet has the audacity to fallaciously insult me while ignoring basic evidence. Clearly he refuses to debate me because he's wrong. If he's not wrong then I'm sure he will partner up with one of you to accept this challenge. If anyone is willing to defend YYWs "blatant fact" and historical truth, PM me and I will challenge you on the basis of me arguing that Western moral and political thought absolutely did not stem from Christianity.

http://www.debate.org...

Eh, I think that the main issue is that Christianity formed western moral thought by slowly integrating other systems, starting with Greek thought in the Patristic era (at least in the West; Syriac Christianity in particular had a whole different set of influences, which put them at odds with figures like Origen and Tertullian). Aspects of Roman culture were integrated by the Papal See and Byzantium, Scholasticism was an integration of Averroism, which in turn was a fusion of Islamic and Aristotelian thought. Scholasticism lead to the Renaissance and Erasmus, who put humanism on the map. So it could be argued that Christian institutions acted as a cultural and ideological melting pot, just a, very, very slow one. Certainly Christian moral thought was a big ingredient, but it wasn't as if Western morals and politics sprung from the Bible like Minerva from the brain of Jupiter.

Politics, I think, are harder to argue, since some of the biggest players like Machiavelli were rebelling against a Christian political legacy in the wake of secularization. The Enlightenment, which played a huge influence on Western political thought, largely rejected the Christian formulation of politics, often on deistic or even borderline atheistic grounds.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
dylancatlow
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1/3/2015 1:19:42 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/3/2015 12:18:15 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 1/3/2015 11:07:00 AM, Danielle wrote:
...stems from Christianity.

LMFAO this is so obviously wrong, yet YYW keeps insisting that it is a "historical fact" but of course refuses to accept my debate challenge and explain why. Of course I could easily prove (and every historian let alone philosopher and political scientist would agree) that this is certainly not true. Not only is Ancient Greece far more responsible for the overall premise of Western thought, but even other groups like the Hindus, Sumarians and other ancients contributed to both fields far earlier than the Christians. In fact they influenced the Jews who would later influence the Christians. I apologize if this comes off as sassy, but YYW rudely implied that I ought to "take a class" on this stuff when clearly he doesn't know basic 6th grade history yet has the audacity to fallaciously insult me while ignoring basic evidence. Clearly he refuses to debate me because he's wrong. If he's not wrong then I'm sure he will partner up with one of you to accept this challenge. If anyone is willing to defend YYWs "blatant fact" and historical truth, PM me and I will challenge you on the basis of me arguing that Western moral and political thought absolutely did not stem from Christianity.

http://www.debate.org...

Eh, I think that the main issue is that Christianity formed western moral thought by slowly integrating other systems, starting with Greek thought in the Patristic era (at least in the West; Syriac Christianity in particular had a whole different set of influences, which put them at odds with figures like Origen and Tertullian). Aspects of Roman culture were integrated by the Papal See and Byzantium, Scholasticism was an integration of Averroism, which in turn was a fusion of Islamic and Aristotelian thought. Scholasticism lead to the Renaissance and Erasmus, who put humanism on the map. So it could be argued that Christian institutions acted as a cultural and ideological melting pot, just a, very, very slow one. Certainly Christian moral thought was a big ingredient, but it wasn't as if Western morals and politics sprung from the Bible like Minerva from the brain of Jupiter.

Politics, I think, are harder to argue, since some of the biggest players like Machiavelli were rebelling against a Christian political legacy in the wake of secularization. The Enlightenment, which played a huge influence on Western political thought, largely rejected the Christian formulation of politics, often on deistic or even borderline atheistic grounds.

I think you're using a loser definition of "stems from" than the OP intended. Absorbing/fascinating other schools of thought which don't really have anything to do with Christianity as it was originally formulated doesn't mean Christianity was really responsible for western thought. I mean, we could say that science stems from mysticism, since the events which lead to modern day science can in some indirect way be attributed mysticism. But it's not very useful to think of it like this.
Skepsikyma
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1/3/2015 1:32:01 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/3/2015 1:19:42 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 1/3/2015 12:18:15 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 1/3/2015 11:07:00 AM, Danielle wrote:
...stems from Christianity.

LMFAO this is so obviously wrong, yet YYW keeps insisting that it is a "historical fact" but of course refuses to accept my debate challenge and explain why. Of course I could easily prove (and every historian let alone philosopher and political scientist would agree) that this is certainly not true. Not only is Ancient Greece far more responsible for the overall premise of Western thought, but even other groups like the Hindus, Sumarians and other ancients contributed to both fields far earlier than the Christians. In fact they influenced the Jews who would later influence the Christians. I apologize if this comes off as sassy, but YYW rudely implied that I ought to "take a class" on this stuff when clearly he doesn't know basic 6th grade history yet has the audacity to fallaciously insult me while ignoring basic evidence. Clearly he refuses to debate me because he's wrong. If he's not wrong then I'm sure he will partner up with one of you to accept this challenge. If anyone is willing to defend YYWs "blatant fact" and historical truth, PM me and I will challenge you on the basis of me arguing that Western moral and political thought absolutely did not stem from Christianity.

http://www.debate.org...

Eh, I think that the main issue is that Christianity formed western moral thought by slowly integrating other systems, starting with Greek thought in the Patristic era (at least in the West; Syriac Christianity in particular had a whole different set of influences, which put them at odds with figures like Origen and Tertullian). Aspects of Roman culture were integrated by the Papal See and Byzantium, Scholasticism was an integration of Averroism, which in turn was a fusion of Islamic and Aristotelian thought. Scholasticism lead to the Renaissance and Erasmus, who put humanism on the map. So it could be argued that Christian institutions acted as a cultural and ideological melting pot, just a, very, very slow one. Certainly Christian moral thought was a big ingredient, but it wasn't as if Western morals and politics sprung from the Bible like Minerva from the brain of Jupiter.

Politics, I think, are harder to argue, since some of the biggest players like Machiavelli were rebelling against a Christian political legacy in the wake of secularization. The Enlightenment, which played a huge influence on Western political thought, largely rejected the Christian formulation of politics, often on deistic or even borderline atheistic grounds.

I think you're using a loser definition of "stems from" than the OP intended. Absorbing/fascinating other schools of thought which don't really have anything to do with Christianity as it was originally formulated doesn't mean Christianity was really responsible for western thought. I mean, we could say that science stems from mysticism, since the events which lead to modern day science can in some indirect way be attributed mysticism. But it's not very useful to think of it like this.

Yeah, I've read the original thread now and I don't support the idea that Western morals began with Christian theology. I mean, the Christians actually latched on to neo-Platonic, and later Stoic thought pretty quickly, and began synthesizing their own culture from other, older moral and philosophical traditions right off the bat. I don't see how anyone can look at the debates which embroiled the early Church Fathers and disagree with that, especially Origen.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
Skepsikyma
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1/3/2015 1:48:08 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
This quote, but eminent Catholic Historian Christopher Dawson, I think sums up the progression of this fusion:

"For Western religion and theology represent a synthesis of two different traditions, the Hebraic tradition of religious revelation, which is represented by the Bible, and the Hellenic tradition of metaphysical or natural theology, which has been accepted by the Christian Fathers and theologians as a kind of rational propaedeutic or foundation for theology in general. Nevertheless, this philosophic tradition was by no means lacking in religious content, a content supplied by the aesthetic or mystical contemplation which was characteristic of it. On the one hand, Greek philosophy contemplated the universe as a visible order which was the reflection or creation of a spiritual principle--the divine logos; on the other, it saw the spiritual world as an ascending order or hierarchy of intelligible forms which culminated in absolute good and absolute unity, so that for the Stoic and Neo-Platonist the intellectual disciplines of science and philosophy found their final end in a religious act of contemplation which resembles that of the mystic.

This Hellenic theology was readily adopted by the Christian theologians, as we see in St. Augustine's early writings, in the Greek Fathers, and in the works that pass under the name of Dionysius the Areopagite. There has been a somewhat similar development of philosophic theology in modern times during the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries, the product of deism and rationalism. But this modern movement tended to lose its religious character as soon as it became separated from the Christian tradition, and it soon ceased to show any trace of those contemplative or mystical tendencies which characterized the older Hellenic tradition. Consequently in modern times the historical alliance between natural theology and the theology of revelation has been broken, except in the case of Thomism, which has held fast to the old tradition.

Modern Protestant theology, especially the school of Karl Barth, has utterly rejected as false and worthless any rational or philosophical theology and has refused to admit the existence of any form of genuine religious knowledge except that contained in biblical revelation and apprehended by divine faith. If, however, we accept the Barthian principle, the complete nonexistence of any natural channel of understanding between God and Man, it is difficult to see how such an act of faith can be elicited except from those who already possess some kind of faith. The God who spoke to Abraham was not a totally unknown being. He was one who was accepted or taken for granted as the God of his fathers."
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
thett3
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1/3/2015 2:06:11 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Certainly some degree of Western thought stems from Christianity because it was such a dominant belief system for so long a period of time, but certainly not all of Western thought. Truth be told, I think these arguments are kind of dumb but maybe that's just due to the way I view religion. I think it would be extremely difficult to divorce Christianity and Western thought just as it would be difficult to divorce Western thought with Western culture, or anything else. It's all so fused together that to make any declaration about what factors influenced certain thoughts and philosophies seems too bold, imo.

Some thinkers were obviously more influenced by Christianity than others...although I admit I don't know that much about the history of philosophy. Not my thing.

That said, I'd like to see a debate on it.
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YYW
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1/3/2015 2:07:42 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/3/2015 2:06:11 PM, thett3 wrote:
Certainly some degree of Western thought stems from Christianity because it was such a dominant belief system for so long a period of time, but certainly not all of Western thought. Truth be told, I think these arguments are kind of dumb but maybe that's just due to the way I view religion. I think it would be extremely difficult to divorce Christianity and Western thought just as it would be difficult to divorce Western thought with Western culture, or anything else. It's all so fused together that to make any declaration about what factors influenced certain thoughts and philosophies seems too bold, imo.

Some thinkers were obviously more influenced by Christianity than others...although I admit I don't know that much about the history of philosophy. Not my thing.

That said, I'd like to see a debate on it.

The reason I'm not going to debate it is because it's stupid to debate. It's a given, much as you said.

Dani also misrepresented what I said so... yeah.
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AnDoctuir
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1/3/2015 2:29:33 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
This thread is hilarious, lol.
I have my own opinions on Christian doctrine, though, which seems to suggest to me that it's just something that slotted itself into our psychology.---Jesus born to the Virgin Mary, for example; all the rest of us so taken with slandering each other's mothers lest anyone be greater than we, as if the first denial of man's divinity comes in the impurity of his mother. Further, then, we get the commandment, Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, almost as if to strike a deal with the disgruntled son of the father who f*cks the mother; and so on. Actually, there's quite the psychology there for man (and always has been I imagine) assuming woman his property: indeed, it seems Christianity would subsume and rewrite reality rather than to define it. Cain and Abel are like to Edgar and Edmund, or Ziggy and Nick Sobotka; Jesus and wrathful Father are like to House M.D. - doctor - and solider father, or Sherlock Holmes - criminologist - and barbarous capitalist father ......And so it continues, a wash of psychological studies and metaphors. What outright definition can a thing that only recreates, or satiates, provide?
Now, as to whether Christianity holds it all together: that is another matter; and same goes for its divinity.---I will call myself Christian for rather unconventional reasons. But it is absurd to say that Christianity is definition in itself. Jesus Christ himself is a common man, who lived first to be written of.

YYW plays piddling games of order.
AnDoctuir
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1/3/2015 2:33:26 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
In fairness, the OT and NT look very like two parts to work together like the oldest con there is: to create the threat, then provide the solution. Still, ...
Danielle
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1/4/2015 1:23:03 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/3/2015 2:07:42 PM, YYW wrote:
The reason I'm not going to debate it is because it's stupid to debate. It's a given, much as you said.

Dani also misrepresented what I said so... yeah.

Liar. I used your direct quote. Here it is once again and here is a link to where you said it.

At 1/3/2015 8:52:00 AM, YYW wrote:
Dani, the entirety of Western moral thought came from Christianity. Take a course on the history of moral philosophy... like any course at all.

At 1/3/2015 10:35:40 AM, YYW wrote:
Gee... stereotype much? lol but it doesn't matter. The history of Western moral thought (and most of Western political thought) begins in Christian theology. Whether you chose to accept historical fact or not is your prerogative, though.

Both of these direct quotes in their original form can be found here: http://www.debate.org...

I did not misrepresent your position at all. I'm using direct quotes with cited sources. Aren't you embarrassed for lying so blatantly? I love the way you make it seem as if you are agreeing with thett when she is DISAGREEING with what you said. She said, Certainly some degree of Western thought stems from Christianity because it was such a dominant belief system for so long a period of time, but certainly not all of Western thought." This is a direct contrast to your quote that the ENTIRETY of Western thought stems form Christianity. Furthermore she said you can't divorce Christianity from Western thought which is 100% true and I would never deny that; I said Western thought did not DERIVE from Christianity which is your insane declaration as per your direct quotes.
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Raisor
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1/4/2015 1:36:07 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Skepsik pretty much said everything that needs to be said.

The claim that the "entirety" of Western philosophy stems from Christianity is obviously untrue.

It can't even be said that Christianity represent the trunk of Western though from the roots of ancient philosophy, if only because of the influence of Averroes.

Obviously Christianity has a huge impact on Western political thought, but yeah I don't think there's much of an argument to be made that the entirety of Western thought comes from Christianity.
YYW
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1/4/2015 1:50:04 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/4/2015 1:36:07 PM, Raisor wrote:
Skepsik pretty much said everything that needs to be said.

The claim that the "entirety" of Western philosophy stems from Christianity is obviously untrue.

It can't even be said that Christianity represent the trunk of Western though from the roots of ancient philosophy, if only because of the influence of Averroes.

Obviously Christianity has a huge impact on Western political thought, but yeah I don't think there's much of an argument to be made that the entirety of Western thought comes from Christianity.

Yup.
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YYW
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1/4/2015 1:50:28 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/4/2015 1:23:03 PM, Danielle wrote:
At 1/3/2015 2:07:42 PM, YYW wrote:
The reason I'm not going to debate it is because it's stupid to debate. It's a given, much as you said.

Dani also misrepresented what I said so... yeah.

Liar. I used your direct quote. Here it is once again and here is a link to where you said it.

Hurdy gurdy.
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Danielle
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1/4/2015 1:54:52 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/4/2015 1:50:28 PM, YYW wrote:
Hurdy gurdy.

hurdy gurdy literally proved you lied literally proved you made a completely unintelligible point that nobody agrees with hurdy gurdy hurdy hurdy retarded startement gurdy hurdy you're wrong and you know it hurdy gurdy you dunno basic 6th grade history hurdy hurdy gurdy gurdy gurdy
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Danielle
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1/4/2015 1:55:37 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/4/2015 1:50:04 PM, YYW wrote:
Yup.

lol OBVIOUSLY

At 1/4/2015 1:36:07 PM, Raisor wrote:
Skepsik pretty much said everything that needs to be said.

The claim that the "entirety" of Western philosophy stems from Christianity is obviously untrue.

hurdy gurdy
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YYW
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1/4/2015 2:27:39 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/4/2015 1:55:37 PM, Danielle wrote:
At 1/4/2015 1:50:04 PM, YYW wrote:
Yup.

lol OBVIOUSLY

At 1/4/2015 1:36:07 PM, Raisor wrote:
Skepsik pretty much said everything that needs to be said.

The claim that the "entirety" of Western philosophy stems from Christianity is obviously untrue.

hurdy gurdy

Yeah, I was being hyperbolic... although I didn't say that the entirety of western philosophy stems from Christianity. I said the entirety of western MORAL philosophy came from Christianity. But, I should have added one more adjective... the entirety of modern western moral philosophy comes from christianity.

And again, this is one of those times when you can argue and act sanctimonious (lolzy because you're wrong) or you can pretend like it didn't happen (lolzy for other reasons)... but I really don't care, Dani. I like you, and you're usually a good contributor in the forums so its w/e.
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