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The Morality of God

phiLockeraptor
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1/10/2015 12:56:44 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
I'm going to be blunt and point out three glaring problems with the Christian doctrine of Hell. If you have an answer, please, share it with me.

1. One lifetime of bad behavior means an eternity of punishment. How do you reconcile this grave injustice?

2. Everyone deserves to go to Hell unless they worship God. Then they can commit whatever sin they want and still be "forgiven". How is this fair? How do you worship a being that gives murderers a "Get out of hell free card" for praising his ego, but throws charity-workers in the Pit for not believing? Is this not the condition of a psychopath?

3. If we're all "sinners", whose fault is that but our maker's? Don't give me the original sin crap, either, because God made Lucifer as well. Plus, couldn't he have just programmed Adam and Eve to have a great fear of the Tree of Knowledge? And why the Hell did he put it within their grasp in the first place?

I have more issues, but those are the three that popped into my mind. Does anybody want to answer for these grievances? If so, I'm all ears.
"Philosophy is a great conversation that never ends"

Writing for this website ----> www.dailyfreethinker.com
Fido
Posts: 357
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1/10/2015 3:13:08 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Does anyone get what vanity it is to judge God with Human logic? Like Lincoln saying God could not be for an against the same side. Welwe it wouldn't be much fun being God unless you could be.
bossyburrito
Posts: 14,075
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1/10/2015 7:54:22 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
If god existed, then his will would be law. There are no human standards you can hold him to.

Of course, you can't hold him to logic, either... making him an illogical entity.
#UnbanTheMadman

"Some will sell their dreams for small desires
Or lose the race to rats
Get caught in ticking traps
And start to dream of somewhere
To relax their restless flight
Somewhere out of a memory of lighted streets on quiet nights..."

~ Rush
phiLockeraptor
Posts: 233
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1/10/2015 4:34:16 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/10/2015 3:13:08 AM, Fido wrote:
Does anyone get what vanity it is to judge God with Human logic? Like Lincoln saying God could not be for an against the same side. Welwe it wouldn't be much fun being God unless you could be.

I'm not judging God with human logic. I'm holding him to standards of Human decency.

All powerful does not mean always right.
"Philosophy is a great conversation that never ends"

Writing for this website ----> www.dailyfreethinker.com
Fido
Posts: 357
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1/10/2015 6:23:26 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/10/2015 4:34:16 PM, phiLockeraptor wrote:
At 1/10/2015 3:13:08 AM, Fido wrote:
Does anyone get what vanity it is to judge God with Human logic? Like Lincoln saying God could not be for an against the same side. Welwe it wouldn't be much fun being God unless you could be.

I'm not judging God with human logic. I'm holding him to standards of Human decency.

All powerful does not mean always right.

If you buy into the God thing, then all powerful does mean always right. Job said it too. He would dispute with God. It is awfully hard to take, some times; but any God powerful enough to do us wrong has the power to make it all right. Job could have Cursed God and Died, as his wife suggested. Job recognized the injustice done to him and yet because he did not curse God, and did not die, his faith in God was rewarded. May we all be so fortunate.
xXCryptoXx
Posts: 5,000
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1/10/2015 6:47:38 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/10/2015 12:56:44 AM, phiLockeraptor wrote:
I'm going to be blunt and point out three glaring problems with the Christian doctrine of Hell. If you have an answer, please, share it with me.

1. One lifetime of bad behavior means an eternity of punishment. How do you reconcile this grave injustice?

Our souls are eternal. We don't get sent to Hell because we did finite, evil actions. We get sent to Hell because our imperfect selves were never reconciled with God, and thus did not possess the grace needed to attain Heaven. God wants to give us the grace needed, but it can only be given if we are willing to receive it. Those who reject the opportunity to attain God's grace thus cannot go to Heaven, and consequently are sent to Hell.

2. Everyone deserves to go to Hell unless they worship God. Then they can commit whatever sin they want and still be "forgiven". How is this fair? How do you worship a being that gives murderers a "Get out of hell free card" for praising his ego, but throws charity-workers in the Pit for not believing? Is this not the condition of a psychopath?

Everyone can be forgiven of any sin. Also, forgiveness is only granted when the repenter truly feels sorry for the action they have committed and resolves to try their best, with the help of God, to not commit that sin again. Also you make assumptions about God's judgement on human souls. Never do we know, nor should we ponder who goes to Hell.

3. If we're all "sinners", whose fault is that but our maker's? Don't give me the original sin crap, either, because God made Lucifer as well. Plus, couldn't he have just programmed Adam and Eve to have a great fear of the Tree of Knowledge? And why the Hell did he put it within their grasp in the first place?

God gave us free will, because the only way to love is to do so freely. Along with free will however, the the ability to choose not to love. We are imperfect because we have chosen not to love.
Nolite Timere
phiLockeraptor
Posts: 233
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1/10/2015 7:14:11 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/10/2015 6:47:38 PM, xXCryptoXx wrote:
At 1/10/2015 12:56:44 AM, phiLockeraptor wrote:
I'm going to be blunt and point out three glaring problems with the Christian doctrine of Hell. If you have an answer, please, share it with me.

1. One lifetime of bad behavior means an eternity of punishment. How do you reconcile this grave injustice?

Our souls are eternal. We don't get sent to Hell because we did finite, evil actions. We get sent to Hell because our imperfect selves were never reconciled with God, and thus did not possess the grace needed to attain Heaven. God wants to give us the grace needed, but it can only be given if we are willing to receive it. Those who reject the opportunity to attain God's grace thus cannot go to Heaven, and consequently are sent to Hell.

What opportunity? Has God knocked on your door with a pamphlet? Why do thousands of people tell me thousands of different ways to get it?

Why is his greatest creations born to suffer for eternity? Seems kind of sadistic.

In fact, if I remember correctly, Lucifer was sent to Hell for not wanting to worship humans... can you blame him? I mean, they're naturally sinful and all.


2. Everyone deserves to go to Hell unless they worship God. Then they can commit whatever sin they want and still be "forgiven". How is this fair? How do you worship a being that gives murderers a "Get out of hell free card" for praising his ego, but throws charity-workers in the Pit for not believing? Is this not the condition of a psychopath?

Everyone can be forgiven of any sin. Also, forgiveness is only granted when the repenter truly feels sorry for the action they have committed and resolves to try their best, with the help of God, to not commit that sin again. Also you make assumptions about God's judgement on human souls. Never do we know, nor should we ponder who goes to Hell.

Without knowing which actions are hell-worthy, we cannot hope to know what is and is not sin. How, then, can we feel sorry? And why do I need Gods help to feel remorse for, say, pretending I don't have change when a homeless man approaches me?

3. If we're all "sinners", whose fault is that but our maker's? Don't give me the original sin crap, either, because God made Lucifer as well. Plus, couldn't he have just programmed Adam and Eve to have a great fear of the Tree of Knowledge? And why the Hell did he put it within their grasp in the first place?

God gave us free will, because the only way to love is to do so freely. Along with free will however, the the ability to choose not to love. We are imperfect because we have chosen not to love.

I'll give you love, but that still doesn't answer why he placed the one thing he didn't want humans to touch right there, and how Satan got into the Garden of Eden in the first place.

Seems like a story meant to demonize reason, to be honest.
"Philosophy is a great conversation that never ends"

Writing for this website ----> www.dailyfreethinker.com
phiLockeraptor
Posts: 233
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1/10/2015 7:17:28 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/10/2015 6:23:26 PM, Fido wrote:
At 1/10/2015 4:34:16 PM, phiLockeraptor wrote:
At 1/10/2015 3:13:08 AM, Fido wrote:
Does anyone get what vanity it is to judge God with Human logic? Like Lincoln saying God could not be for an against the same side. Welwe it wouldn't be much fun being God unless you could be.

I'm not judging God with human logic. I'm holding him to standards of Human decency.

All powerful does not mean always right.

If you buy into the God thing, then all powerful does mean always right. Job said it too. He would dispute with God. It is awfully hard to take, some times; but any God powerful enough to do us wrong has the power to make it all right. Job could have Cursed God and Died, as his wife suggested. Job recognized the injustice done to him and yet because he did not curse God, and did not die, his faith in God was rewarded. May we all be so fortunate.

If you buy into the Hitler thing, then all powerful does mean alright. Austria said it too. He would dispute with Hitler. It is awfully hard to take, some times; but any Country powerful enough to do us wrong has the power to make it alright. Austria could have cursed Hitler and died, as it's citizens suggested. Austria recognized the injustice done to them and yet did not curse Hitler, and did not die, his faith in Hitler was rewarded. May we all be so fortunate.
"Philosophy is a great conversation that never ends"

Writing for this website ----> www.dailyfreethinker.com
xXCryptoXx
Posts: 5,000
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1/10/2015 7:27:01 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/10/2015 7:14:11 PM, phiLockeraptor wrote:
At 1/10/2015 6:47:38 PM, xXCryptoXx wrote:
At 1/10/2015 12:56:44 AM, phiLockeraptor wrote:
I'm going to be blunt and point out three glaring problems with the Christian doctrine of Hell. If you have an answer, please, share it with me.

1. One lifetime of bad behavior means an eternity of punishment. How do you reconcile this grave injustice?

Our souls are eternal. We don't get sent to Hell because we did finite, evil actions. We get sent to Hell because our imperfect selves were never reconciled with God, and thus did not possess the grace needed to attain Heaven. God wants to give us the grace needed, but it can only be given if we are willing to receive it. Those who reject the opportunity to attain God's grace thus cannot go to Heaven, and consequently are sent to Hell.

What opportunity? Has God knocked on your door with a pamphlet?

Even better. He came down to Earth and walked along with men. He preached to them, telling them all they needed to know, and then he took up the cross and died for us.

Why do thousands of people tell me thousands of different ways to get it?

Because ignorance and general imperfection is a result of original sin. It is therefore a Christian's duty to preach and bring others to Christ.

Why is his greatest creations born to suffer for eternity? Seems kind of sadistic.

They weren't. Men are created for God.

In fact, if I remember correctly, Lucifer was sent to Hell for not wanting to worship humans... can you blame him? I mean, they're naturally sinful and all.

That is wrong. Lucifer's sin was pride. He wanted to be God.



2. Everyone deserves to go to Hell unless they worship God. Then they can commit whatever sin they want and still be "forgiven". How is this fair? How do you worship a being that gives murderers a "Get out of hell free card" for praising his ego, but throws charity-workers in the Pit for not believing? Is this not the condition of a psychopath?

Everyone can be forgiven of any sin. Also, forgiveness is only granted when the repenter truly feels sorry for the action they have committed and resolves to try their best, with the help of God, to not commit that sin again. Also you make assumptions about God's judgement on human souls. Never do we know, nor should we ponder who goes to Hell.

Without knowing which actions are hell-worthy, we cannot hope to know what is and is not sin.

Christianity offers all of the answers. We do know what actions are worthy of Hell, but we should not judge a soul because we are not perfect as God is, and we have not experienced the things that soul has.

3. If we're all "sinners", whose fault is that but our maker's? Don't give me the original sin crap, either, because God made Lucifer as well. Plus, couldn't he have just programmed Adam and Eve to have a great fear of the Tree of Knowledge? And why the Hell did he put it within their grasp in the first place?

God gave us free will, because the only way to love is to do so freely. Along with free will however, the the ability to choose not to love. We are imperfect because we have chosen not to love.

I'll give you love, but that still doesn't answer why he placed the one thing he didn't want humans to touch right there, and how Satan got into the Garden of Eden in the first place.

The Garden of Eden is a symbolic story. The tree represents evil. The snake represents our temptation towards evil. The problem with what you are saying is that you take the story as a literal event.

Seems like a story meant to demonize reason, to be honest.
Nolite Timere
Fido
Posts: 357
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1/10/2015 7:59:38 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/10/2015 7:17:28 PM, phiLockeraptor wrote:
At 1/10/2015 6:23:26 PM, Fido wrote:
At 1/10/2015 4:34:16 PM, phiLockeraptor wrote:
At 1/10/2015 3:13:08 AM, Fido wrote:
Does anyone get what vanity it is to judge God with Human logic? Like Lincoln saying God could not be for an against the same side. Welwe it wouldn't be much fun being God unless you could be.

I'm not judging God with human logic. I'm holding him to standards of Human decency.

All powerful does not mean always right.

If you buy into the God thing, then all powerful does mean always right. Job said it too. He would dispute with God. It is awfully hard to take, some times; but any God powerful enough to do us wrong has the power to make it all right. Job could have Cursed God and Died, as his wife suggested. Job recognized the injustice done to him and yet because he did not curse God, and did not die, his faith in God was rewarded. May we all be so fortunate.

If you buy into the Hitler thing, then all powerful does mean alright. Austria said it too. He would dispute with Hitler. It is awfully hard to take, some times; but any Country powerful enough to do us wrong has the power to make it alright. Austria could have cursed Hitler and died, as it's citizens suggested. Austria recognized the injustice done to them and yet did not curse Hitler, and did not die, his faith in Hitler was rewarded. May we all be so fortunate.

I understand you are working on an analogy but it sort of falls short. Your biz. What do you have against God. Did he make you a girl, or a black person or something. God didn't make me rich. He didn't make me steal either. And I got 4X years on you, and I love it. I wouldn't trade places with you. Youth is hell. So what if the girls won't dance with me and my wrinkles have wrinkles. If you go after your life like it is the last box of ice cream on the whole planet. Suck it up, with good and bad with gusto; don't allow yourself a moment of boredom, or self pity, you will find like myself that the pain was worth it.

I am going to tell you something I very seldom mention. I lost a son to a brain aneurysm. It hurts, and it is going to forever. Do you think I love life less as a result? I love life more, for everyone I know who has no life to love. Your age sucks. It is a time of fear, of danger, of little promise and much work if you will have that life you can love.
I would not wish your life away even to revive my own child. I wish you would step out side and feel reality, feel your life that is honest to God, slipping away from you, and treasure it. I will never say enough of life, but when it is my time, I want with an open peaceful mind to submit to death. I made my life out of hard work and danger. I spit in the face of danger and in the eyes of God. I dared mighty deeds, and death was always inches away. Can you imagine being awfully depressed where death was right there ready to walk you off the edge of a building? I don't spit in the face of God no more. I don't dare death except on my motor cycle. I breathe in and I breathe out and do not envy any one anything.

It is not a wonderful life, but life can be wonderful at times. The fact that it can also be terrible beyond understanding is also a reality. You have to learn, and to build your strength, your mental and moral strength for the years that lie before you. Before you do anything, think for a moment that you have the same life as the first animal or germ on the planet, and that life -is will. Think of whether you have it within you to make something more of the will that is your life, the will your being here today represents.

The balance of your life will take more out of you than you can ever believe possible, and yet in many respects you are living at the most difficult and demanding period of your life. Do you have what it takes. If you do, then do not be kind to yourself. Your learning, and hard work now will be the essential part of your ease, peace and comfort later in life. Be severe. Be strong.
AnDoctuir
Posts: 11,060
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1/10/2015 8:29:18 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/10/2015 7:59:38 PM, Fido wrote:
At 1/10/2015 7:17:28 PM, phiLockeraptor wrote:
At 1/10/2015 6:23:26 PM, Fido wrote:
At 1/10/2015 4:34:16 PM, phiLockeraptor wrote:
At 1/10/2015 3:13:08 AM, Fido wrote:
Does anyone get what vanity it is to judge God with Human logic? Like Lincoln saying God could not be for an against the same side. Welwe it wouldn't be much fun being God unless you could be.

I'm not judging God with human logic. I'm holding him to standards of Human decency.

All powerful does not mean always right.

If you buy into the God thing, then all powerful does mean always right. Job said it too. He would dispute with God. It is awfully hard to take, some times; but any God powerful enough to do us wrong has the power to make it all right. Job could have Cursed God and Died, as his wife suggested. Job recognized the injustice done to him and yet because he did not curse God, and did not die, his faith in God was rewarded. May we all be so fortunate.

If you buy into the Hitler thing, then all powerful does mean alright. Austria said it too. He would dispute with Hitler. It is awfully hard to take, some times; but any Country powerful enough to do us wrong has the power to make it alright. Austria could have cursed Hitler and died, as it's citizens suggested. Austria recognized the injustice done to them and yet did not curse Hitler, and did not die, his faith in Hitler was rewarded. May we all be so fortunate.

I understand you are working on an analogy but it sort of falls short. Your biz. What do you have against God. Did he make you a girl, or a black person or something. God didn't make me rich. He didn't make me steal either. And I got 4X years on you, and I love it. I wouldn't trade places with you. Youth is hell. So what if the girls won't dance with me and my wrinkles have wrinkles. If you go after your life like it is the last box of ice cream on the whole planet. Suck it up, with good and bad with gusto; don't allow yourself a moment of boredom, or self pity, you will find like myself that the pain was worth it.

I am going to tell you something I very seldom mention. I lost a son to a brain aneurysm. It hurts, and it is going to forever. Do you think I love life less as a result? I love life more, for everyone I know who has no life to love. Your age sucks. It is a time of fear, of danger, of little promise and much work if you will have that life you can love.
I would not wish your life away even to revive my own child. I wish you would step out side and feel reality, feel your life that is honest to God, slipping away from you, and treasure it. I will never say enough of life, but when it is my time, I want with an open peaceful mind to submit to death. I made my life out of hard work and danger. I spit in the face of danger and in the eyes of God. I dared mighty deeds, and death was always inches away. Can you imagine being awfully depressed where death was right there ready to walk you off the edge of a building? I don't spit in the face of God no more. I don't dare death except on my motor cycle. I breathe in and I breathe out and do not envy any one anything.

It is not a wonderful life, but life can be wonderful at times. The fact that it can also be terrible beyond understanding is also a reality. You have to learn, and to build your strength, your mental and moral strength for the years that lie before you. Before you do anything, think for a moment that you have the same life as the first animal or germ on the planet, and that life -is will. Think of whether you have it within you to make something more of the will that is your life, the will your being here today represents.

The balance of your life will take more out of you than you can ever believe possible, and yet in many respects you are living at the most difficult and demanding period of your life. Do you have what it takes. If you do, then do not be kind to yourself. Your learning, and hard work now will be the essential part of your ease, peace and comfort later in life. Be severe. Be strong.

You're a hero, dude.
ReformedPresbyterian72598
Posts: 293
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1/10/2015 10:09:13 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/10/2015 12:56:44 AM, phiLockeraptor wrote:
I'm going to be blunt and point out three glaring problems with the Christian doctrine of Hell. If you have an answer, please, share it with me.

1. One lifetime of bad behavior means an eternity of punishment. How do you reconcile this grave injustice?

How can it be injustice if it is decreed that to break the law in any way, you are given the punishment it deserves. You break one part of the law, it means you have broken the whole law for it is all woven together, I can show if you wish.

2. Everyone deserves to go to Hell unless they worship God. Then they can commit whatever sin they want and still be "forgiven". How is this fair? How do you worship a being that gives murderers a "Get out of hell free card" for praising his ego, but throws charity-workers in the Pit for not believing? Is this not the condition of a psychopath?

It is if they repent and believe that they will not go to hell. Those whom are saved commit sins, it is by nature we are all sinners. The murderer and the charity giver. God forgives the sins of them that believe because they believe, yes. However, it is not of their own that they do believe, but of His. He works in their heart, therefore they are forgiven.

3. If we're all "sinners", whose fault is that but our maker's? Don't give me the original sin crap, either, because God made Lucifer as well. Plus, couldn't he have just programmed Adam and Eve to have a great fear of the Tree of Knowledge? And why the Hell did he put it within their grasp in the first place?

You are getting into a very deep topic here. It's of the doctrine of predestination, which includes election. There is a book by Gordon H. Clark titled "Predestination" that will help answer this question. But at present I am going to use a source called the Westminster Confession of Faith.

1. All those whom God hath predestinated unto life, and those only, he is pleased, in his appointed and accepted time, effectually to call,a by his Word and Spirit,b out of that state of sin and death, in which they are by nature, to grace and salvation, by Jesus Christ;cenlightening their minds spiritually and savingly to understand the things of God,dtaking away their heart of stone, and giving unto them a heart of flesh;e renewing their wills, and, by his almighty power, determining them to that which is good,f and effectually drawing them to Jesus Christ:g yet so, as they come most freely, being made willing by his grace.h

(a) Acts 13:48; Rom 8:28,30; Rom 11:7; Eph 1:5,11; 2 Tim 1:9-10
(b) 2 Thess 2:13-14; Jas 1:18; 2 Cor 3:3,6; 1 Cor 2:12
(c) 2 Tim 1:9-10; 1 Pet 2:9; Rom 8:2; Eph 2:1-10
(d) Acts 26:18; 1 Cor 2:10,12; Eph 1:17-18; 2 Cor 4:6
(e) Ezek 36:26
(f) Ezek 11:19; Deut 30:6; Ezek 36:27; John 3:5; Titus 3:5; 1 Pet 1:23
(g) John 6:44-45; Acts 16:14
(h) Ps 110:3; John 6:37; Matt 11:28; Rev 22:17; Rom 6:16-18; Eph 2:8; Phil 1:29

2. This effectual call is of God's free and special grace alone, not from anything at all foreseen in man,i who is altogether passive therein, until, being quickened and renewed by the Holy Spirit,k he is thereby enabled to answer this call, and to embrace the grace offered and conveyed in it.l
(i) 2 Tim 1:9; Eph 2:8-9; Rom 9:11
(k) 1 Cor 2:14; Rom 8:7-9; Titus 3:4-5
(l) John 6:37; Ezek 36:27; 1 John 5:1; 1 John 3:9

4. Others, not elected, although they may be called by the ministry of the Word,p and may have some common operations of the Spirit,qyet they never truly come unto Christ, and therefore cannot be saved:r much less can men, not professing the Christian religion, be saved in any other way whatsoever, be they never so diligent to frame their lives according to the light of nature, and the laws of that religion they do profess.s And, to assert and maintain that they may, is very pernicious, and to be detested.t
(p) Matt 13:14-15; Acts 28:24; Acts 13:48;Matt 22:14
(q) Matt 13:20-21; Matt 7:22; Heb 6:4-5
(r) John 6:37,64-66; John 8:44; John 13:18;John 17:12
(s) Acts 4:12; 1 John 4:2-3; 2 John 9; John 14:6; Eph 2:12-13; John 4:22; John 17:3; Rom 10:13-17
(t) 2 John 9-11; 2Corinthians 16:22; Gal 1:6-8:
I have more issues, but those are the three that popped into my mind. Does anybody want to answer for these grievances? If so, I'm all ears.

Read. I hope it helps somewhat, and I am quite open to discussion.
Fido
Posts: 357
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1/11/2015 12:29:52 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
So there isn't a hell. People do not do good because of the image of hell. Children may not do ill because of the terrors of hell. Not for long because we bad little man monkeys have to find our limits by finding our limit. If vice is its own reward, and so is virtue, then the sense of virtue in one's life is much more pleasure than the pleasures of vice. People are driven to sin the way they are driven to crime. It is no coincidence that our heroes are outlaws. What else has any monkey to show his individuality but in sin or crime?

For anyone consciously moral, as people become by being immoral, at some point, they consciously return to society, and understand their morality as if it were new. People who never break free of formal morals are incapable of free thought. People who never return to society have become outlaws in the classic sense and should be killed on sight, sort of. In the old fashion of excommunication.

In any event, society is morality and it is morality that makes people moral. The bondage of birth becomes ones bondage to humanity and this is the essence of morality. Hell has nothing to do with it. People wish themselves to hell, because they all wish each other. None of that cursing of people and wishing injury helps society -and makes life hell; but again; hell as a reality has no reality, and people have to find their own reasons to be good.
Fido
Posts: 357
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1/11/2015 12:33:31 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/10/2015 8:29:18 PM, AnDoctuir wrote:
At 1/10/2015 7:59:38 PM, Fido wrote:
At 1/10/2015 7:17:28 PM, phiLockeraptor wrote:
At 1/10/2015 6:23:26 PM, Fido wrote:
At 1/10/2015 4:34:16 PM, phiLockeraptor wrote:
At 1/10/2015 3:13:08 AM, Fido wrote:
Does anyone get what vanity it is to judge God with Human logic? Like Lincoln saying God could not be for an against the same side. Welwe it wouldn't be much fun being God unless you could be.

I'm not judging God with human logic. I'm holding him to standards of Human decency.

All powerful does not mean always right.

If you buy into the God thing, then all powerful does mean always right. Job said it too. He would dispute with God. It is awfully hard to take, some times; but any God powerful enough to do us wrong has the power to make it all right. Job could have Cursed God and Died, as his wife suggested. Job recognized the injustice done to him and yet because he did not curse God, and did not die, his faith in God was rewarded. May we all be so fortunate.

If you buy into the Hitler thing, then all powerful does mean alright. Austria said it too. He would dispute with Hitler. It is awfully hard to take, some times; but any Country powerful enough to do us wrong has the power to make it alright. Austria could have cursed Hitler and died, as it's citizens suggested. Austria recognized the injustice done to them and yet did not curse Hitler, and did not die, his faith in Hitler was rewarded. May we all be so fortunate.

I understand you are working on an analogy but it sort of falls short. Your biz. What do you have against God. Did he make you a girl, or a black person or something. God didn't make me rich. He didn't make me steal either. And I got 4X years on you, and I love it. I wouldn't trade places with you. Youth is hell. So what if the girls won't dance with me and my wrinkles have wrinkles. If you go after your life like it is the last box of ice cream on the whole planet. Suck it up, with good and bad with gusto; don't allow yourself a moment of boredom, or self pity, you will find like myself that the pain was worth it.

I am going to tell you something I very seldom mention. I lost a son to a brain aneurysm. It hurts, and it is going to forever. Do you think I love life less as a result? I love life more, for everyone I know who has no life to love. Your age sucks. It is a time of fear, of danger, of little promise and much work if you will have that life you can love.
I would not wish your life away even to revive my own child. I wish you would step out side and feel reality, feel your life that is honest to God, slipping away from you, and treasure it. I will never say enough of life, but when it is my time, I want with an open peaceful mind to submit to death. I made my life out of hard work and danger. I spit in the face of danger and in the eyes of God. I dared mighty deeds, and death was always inches away. Can you imagine being awfully depressed where death was right there ready to walk you off the edge of a building? I don't spit in the face of God no more. I don't dare death except on my motor cycle. I breathe in and I breathe out and do not envy any one anything.

It is not a wonderful life, but life can be wonderful at times. The fact that it can also be terrible beyond understanding is also a reality. You have to learn, and to build your strength, your mental and moral strength for the years that lie before you. Before you do anything, think for a moment that you have the same life as the first animal or germ on the planet, and that life -is will. Think of whether you have it within you to make something more of the will that is your life, the will your being here today represents.

The balance of your life will take more out of you than you can ever believe possible, and yet in many respects you are living at the most difficult and demanding period of your life. Do you have what it takes. If you do, then do not be kind to yourself. Your learning, and hard work now will be the essential part of your ease, peace and comfort later in life. Be severe. Be strong.

You're a hero, dude.

Perhaps a flawed antihero, I think, what is called an Iron.
Smithereens
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1/11/2015 5:34:50 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/10/2015 12:56:44 AM, phiLockeraptor wrote:
I'm going to be blunt and point out three glaring problems with the Christian doctrine of Hell. If you have an answer, please, share it with me.

1. One lifetime of bad behavior means an eternity of punishment. How do you reconcile this grave injustice?
The assumption behind the premise is incorrect. You aren't being punished for a lifetime of sin. A single sin separates you from God, as he is an entity with which sin cannot co-exist. This separation, if not reconciled while the agent has free-will (is alive), will persist as eternity with the soul, the aspect of consciousness that does not experience physical death. This state of eternal separation is commonly called 'hell,' and is a direct consequence of the absolute inability for God and sin to exist together.

2. Everyone deserves to go to Hell unless they worship God. Then they can commit whatever sin they want and still be "forgiven". How is this fair? How do you worship a being that gives murderers a "Get out of hell free card" for praising his ego, but throws charity-workers in the Pit for not believing? Is this not the condition of a psychopath?
God does not give out forgiveness cards to those who worship him. No crime is of any relevance. Every sin is infinitely significant when compared to an infinitely perfect God. Justice demands that everyone be eternally separated for being a sinful entity. The point of religion is to act as a sacrifice in response to God's sacrifice of killing himself to create a solution to the problem of evil. We can choose to make the sacrifice of submitting to God, to allow him to take the blame for our sins, or we can take the blame ourselves. Doing the latter resolves in separation.

3. If we're all "sinners", whose fault is that but our maker's? Don't give me the original sin crap, either, because God made Lucifer as well. Plus, couldn't he have just programmed Adam and Eve to have a great fear of the Tree of Knowledge? And why the Hell did he put it within their grasp in the first place?
Original sin does not exist. We are sinful the moment we start making consciously aware decision that are evil and/or malicious. And since the standard to live up to is perfection, we are highly likely to fail. Hence it is highly likely that we will need a perfect sacrifice to blame all our sins on. Since that would normally be evil itself, it can only be justified if the sacrifice is God himself. Hence we choose to commit acts of deception, theft, murder, rape etc... and anyone at all can get out of facing separation, it's up to them. God doesn't play an active part in it, as our freedom is probs the only thing that does not belong to God.

I have more issues, but those are the three that popped into my mind. Does anybody want to answer for these grievances? If so, I'm all ears.
Well, you're certainly not the first to think it. I'm fairly certain all Christians have pondered this at some point.
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phiLockeraptor
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1/11/2015 1:05:57 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/11/2015 5:34:50 AM, Smithereens wrote:
At 1/10/2015 12:56:44 AM, phiLockeraptor wrote:
I'm going to be blunt and point out three glaring problems with the Christian doctrine of Hell. If you have an answer, please, share it with me.

1. One lifetime of bad behavior means an eternity of punishment. How do you reconcile this grave injustice?
The assumption behind the premise is incorrect. You aren't being punished for a lifetime of sin. A single sin separates you from God, as he is an entity with which sin cannot co-exist. This separation, if not reconciled while the agent has free-will (is alive), will persist as eternity with the soul, the aspect of consciousness that does not experience physical death. This state of eternal separation is commonly called 'hell,' and is a direct consequence of the absolute inability for God and sin to exist together.

Is Hell suffering or not? Are all non-believers in Hell already, since they are seperated from God? Active suffering is different from a lack of paradise.

2. Everyone deserves to go to Hell unless they worship God. Then they can commit whatever sin they want and still be "forgiven". How is this fair? How do you worship a being that gives murderers a "Get out of hell free card" for praising his ego, but throws charity-workers in the Pit for not believing? Is this not the condition of a psychopath?
God does not give out forgiveness cards to those who worship him. No crime is of any relevance. Every sin is infinitely significant when compared to an infinitely perfect God. Justice demands that everyone be eternally separated for being a sinful entity. The point of religion is to act as a sacrifice in response to God's sacrifice of killing himself to create a solution to the problem of evil. We can choose to make the sacrifice of submitting to God, to allow him to take the blame for our sins, or we can take the blame ourselves. Doing the latter resolves in separation.

God is all powerful. Therefore, he has the power to prevent evil, and should be held accountable for allowing it to exist. Even if you want to give "free-will" arguments, the fact of the matter is, God has free will, and he is doing nothing to prevent evil of suffering. According to the Christian doctrine, God sent his only son to die in order to prohibit the fate that He is ultimately responsible for.

What is this "separation" you keep going on about? Are we not already separated from him on Earth? If Hell is literally just a lack of perfect paradise, then I wouldn't mind it too much, although I do believe that most Christians would find your soft-speech borderline blasphemous.

3. If we're all "sinners", whose fault is that but our maker's? Don't give me the original sin crap, either, because God made Lucifer as well. Plus, couldn't he have just programmed Adam and Eve to have a great fear of the Tree of Knowledge? And why the Hell did he put it within their grasp in the first place?
Original sin does not exist. We are sinful the moment we start making consciously aware decision that are evil and/or malicious. And since the standard to live up to is perfection, we are highly likely to fail. Hence it is highly likely that we will need a perfect sacrifice to blame all our sins on. Since that would normally be evil itself, it can only be justified if the sacrifice is God himself. Hence we choose to commit acts of deception, theft, murder, rape etc... and anyone at all can get out of facing separation, it's up to them. God doesn't play an active part in it, as our freedom is probs the only thing that does not belong to God.

What makes theft bad? What makes rape bad? God is the one who gave us the ability to make these decisions. Perfect sacrifice? Do you know how ridiculous this sounds? Do we arrest murderers and give a sentence of the Judge's only son being brutally whipped instead? Where is the justice in that?

I'm pretty sure Hindu's, Pagans, Spiritualists, and Animists are living perfectly happy lives of "separation". Do you mean to tell us that non-belief, then, is the only truly vile act?

I have more issues, but those are the three that popped into my mind. Does anybody want to answer for these grievances? If so, I'm all ears.
Well, you're certainly not the first to think it. I'm fairly certain all Christians have pondered this at some point.
"Philosophy is a great conversation that never ends"

Writing for this website ----> www.dailyfreethinker.com
phiLockeraptor
Posts: 233
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1/11/2015 1:11:16 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/10/2015 10:09:13 PM, ReformedPresbyterian72598 wrote:
At 1/10/2015 12:56:44 AM, phiLockeraptor wrote:
I'm going to be blunt and point out three glaring problems with the Christian doctrine of Hell. If you have an answer, please, share it with me.

1. One lifetime of bad behavior means an eternity of punishment. How do you reconcile this grave injustice?

How can it be injustice if it is decreed that to break the law in any way, you are given the punishment it deserves. You break one part of the law, it means you have broken the whole law for it is all woven together, I can show if you wish.

So if I get a speeding ticket I should face life in prison? Your standards for a Perfect being are less severe than your standards for human decency...

2. Everyone deserves to go to Hell unless they worship God. Then they can commit whatever sin they want and still be "forgiven". How is this fair? How do you worship a being that gives murderers a "Get out of hell free card" for praising his ego, but throws charity-workers in the Pit for not believing? Is this not the condition of a psychopath?

It is if they repent and believe that they will not go to hell. Those whom are saved commit sins, it is by nature we are all sinners. The murderer and the charity giver. God forgives the sins of them that believe because they believe, yes. However, it is not of their own that they do believe, but of His. He works in their heart, therefore they are forgiven.

What about African tribes who grow up and have never heard of him? Are all of those people going to perish, too? How about every human who existed before Jesus. Are they all in Hell? Just what exactly is the point?

3. If we're all "sinners", whose fault is that but our maker's? Don't give me the original sin crap, either, because God made Lucifer as well. Plus, couldn't he have just programmed Adam and Eve to have a great fear of the Tree of Knowledge? And why the Hell did he put it within their grasp in the first place?

You are getting into a very deep topic here. It's of the doctrine of predestination, which includes election. There is a book by Gordon H. Clark titled "Predestination" that will help answer this question. But at present I am going to use a source called the Westminster Confession of Faith.

1. All those whom God hath predestinated unto life, and those only, he is pleased, in his appointed and accepted time, effectually to call,a by his Word and Spirit,b out of that state of sin and death, in which they are by nature, to grace and salvation, by Jesus Christ;cenlightening their minds spiritually and savingly to understand the things of God,dtaking away their heart of stone, and giving unto them a heart of flesh;e renewing their wills, and, by his almighty power, determining them to that which is good,f and effectually drawing them to Jesus Christ:g yet so, as they come most freely, being made willing by his grace.h

"Being made willing" is an oxymoron. Why doesn't he just show himself? He's everywhere, right?

(a) Acts 13:48; Rom 8:28,30; Rom 11:7; Eph 1:5,11; 2 Tim 1:9-10
(b) 2 Thess 2:13-14; Jas 1:18; 2 Cor 3:3,6; 1 Cor 2:12
(c) 2 Tim 1:9-10; 1 Pet 2:9; Rom 8:2; Eph 2:1-10
(d) Acts 26:18; 1 Cor 2:10,12; Eph 1:17-18; 2 Cor 4:6
(e) Ezek 36:26
(f) Ezek 11:19; Deut 30:6; Ezek 36:27; John 3:5; Titus 3:5; 1 Pet 1:23
(g) John 6:44-45; Acts 16:14
(h) Ps 110:3; John 6:37; Matt 11:28; Rev 22:17; Rom 6:16-18; Eph 2:8; Phil 1:29

2. This effectual call is of God's free and special grace alone, not from anything at all foreseen in man,i who is altogether passive therein, until, being quickened and renewed by the Holy Spirit,k he is thereby enabled to answer this call, and to embrace the grace offered and conveyed in it.l

This is literally a whole bunch of nothing. Where is God when the spirit is being offered? Why are there 1000's of different ways to see his grace?
(i) 2 Tim 1:9; Eph 2:8-9; Rom 9:11
(k) 1 Cor 2:14; Rom 8:7-9; Titus 3:4-5
(l) John 6:37; Ezek 36:27; 1 John 5:1; 1 John 3:9

4. Others, not elected, although they may be called by the ministry of the Word,p and may have some common operations of the Spirit,qyet they never truly come unto Christ, and therefore cannot be saved:r much less can men, not professing the Christian religion, be saved in any other way whatsoever, be they never so diligent to frame their lives according to the light of nature, and the laws of that religion they do profess.s And, to assert and maintain that they may, is very pernicious, and to be detested.t

Let me get this straight. A native american who never hears of Jesus in his life is going to burn in Hell. Where's the justice in that?

What about all of the people that existed before Jesus was born? Will they burn as well?
(p) Matt 13:14-15; Acts 28:24; Acts 13:48;Matt 22:14
(q) Matt 13:20-21; Matt 7:22; Heb 6:4-5
(r) John 6:37,64-66; John 8:44; John 13:18;John 17:12
(s) Acts 4:12; 1 John 4:2-3; 2 John 9; John 14:6; Eph 2:12-13; John 4:22; John 17:3; Rom 10:13-17
(t) 2 John 9-11; 2Corinthians 16:22; Gal 1:6-8:
I have more issues, but those are the three that popped into my mind. Does anybody want to answer for these grievances? If so, I'm all ears.

Read. I hope it helps somewhat, and I am quite open to discussion.
"Philosophy is a great conversation that never ends"

Writing for this website ----> www.dailyfreethinker.com
phiLockeraptor
Posts: 233
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1/11/2015 1:23:16 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/10/2015 7:59:38 PM, Fido wrote:
At 1/10/2015 7:17:28 PM, phiLockeraptor wrote:
At 1/10/2015 6:23:26 PM, Fido wrote:
At 1/10/2015 4:34:16 PM, phiLockeraptor wrote:
At 1/10/2015 3:13:08 AM, Fido wrote:
Does anyone get what vanity it is to judge God with Human logic? Like Lincoln saying God could not be for an against the same side. Welwe it wouldn't be much fun being God unless you could be.

I'm not judging God with human logic. I'm holding him to standards of Human decency.

All powerful does not mean always right.

If you buy into the God thing, then all powerful does mean always right. Job said it too. He would dispute with God. It is awfully hard to take, some times; but any God powerful enough to do us wrong has the power to make it all right. Job could have Cursed God and Died, as his wife suggested. Job recognized the injustice done to him and yet because he did not curse God, and did not die, his faith in God was rewarded. May we all be so fortunate.

If you buy into the Hitler thing, then all powerful does mean alright. Austria said it too. He would dispute with Hitler. It is awfully hard to take, some times; but any Country powerful enough to do us wrong has the power to make it alright. Austria could have cursed Hitler and died, as it's citizens suggested. Austria recognized the injustice done to them and yet did not curse Hitler, and did not die, his faith in Hitler was rewarded. May we all be so fortunate.

I understand you are working on an analogy but it sort of falls short. Your biz. What do you have against God. Did he make you a girl, or a black person or something.
Actually he made me a White male. He also allows my black Christian friends to be beaten up in hallways.
God didn't make me rich. He didn't make me steal either. And I got 4X years on you, and I love it.

I really hope you're not going to give me the "You're just an ignorant child" speech.
I wouldn't trade places with you. Youth is hell. So what if the girls won't dance with me and my wrinkles have wrinkles. If you go after your life like it is the last box of ice cream on the whole planet. Suck it up, with good and bad with gusto; don't allow yourself a moment of boredom, or self pity, you will find like myself that the pain was worth it.

I'm fine with pain. I'm talking about a very specific interpretation of the Divine, not God himself.

I am going to tell you something I very seldom mention. I lost a son to a brain aneurysm. It hurts, and it is going to forever. Do you think I love life less as a result? I love life more, for everyone I know who has no life to love. Your age sucks. It is a time of fear, of danger, of little promise and much work if you will have that life you can love.

At least you're honest.
I would not wish your life away even to revive my own child. I wish you would step out side and feel reality, feel your life that is honest to God, slipping away from you, and treasure it. I will never say enough of life, but when it is my time, I want with an open peaceful mind to submit to death. I made my life out of hard work and danger. I spit in the face of danger and in the eyes of God. I dared mighty deeds, and death was always inches away. Can you imagine being awfully depressed where death was right there ready to walk you off the edge of a building? I don't spit in the face of God no more.

I don't spit in the face of God either. I spit in the eyes of the Church. Big difference.
I don't dare death except on my motor cycle. I breathe in and I breathe out and do not envy any one anything.

It is not a wonderful life, but life can be wonderful at times. The fact that it can also be terrible beyond understanding is also a reality. You have to learn, and to build your strength, your mental and moral strength for the years that lie before you. Before you do anything, think for a moment that you have the same life as the first animal or germ on the planet, and that life -is will. Think of whether you have it within you to make something more of the will that is your life, the will your being here today represents.

Now that's an idea I can get behind: Build your own paradise using your own human virtues.

The balance of your life will take more out of you than you can ever believe possible, and yet in many respects you are living at the most difficult and demanding period of your life. Do you have what it takes. If you do, then do not be kind to yourself. Your learning, and hard work now will be the essential part of your ease, peace and comfort later in life. Be severe. Be strong.

Thank you for the advice. However, it doesn't really have anything to do with God. You could just as easily tell that to an Atheist.
"Philosophy is a great conversation that never ends"

Writing for this website ----> www.dailyfreethinker.com
Clovis
Posts: 191
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1/11/2015 5:08:58 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/10/2015 4:34:16 PM, phiLockeraptor wrote:
At 1/10/2015 3:13:08 AM, Fido wrote:
Does anyone get what vanity it is to judge God with Human logic? Like Lincoln saying God could not be for an against the same side. Welwe it wouldn't be much fun being God unless you could be.

I'm not judging God with human logic. I'm holding him to standards of Human decency.

All powerful does not mean always right.

That is your issue you're holding God up to standards of HUMAN dignity. God is not human, not even remotely. Such a being is so far superior to us that judging him by our standards is a folly.

We can sit around and tear our hair out about why apes and dogs do not meet our standards of human decency as well but no one does because it is assumed and accepted that they are different from us. Somehow this same concept doesn't translate upwards to God.
Words are wind.

A reader lives a thousand lives before he dies. The man who never reads lives only one.
phiLockeraptor
Posts: 233
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1/11/2015 5:52:00 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/11/2015 5:08:58 PM, Clovis wrote:
At 1/10/2015 4:34:16 PM, phiLockeraptor wrote:
At 1/10/2015 3:13:08 AM, Fido wrote:
Does anyone get what vanity it is to judge God with Human logic? Like Lincoln saying God could not be for an against the same side. Welwe it wouldn't be much fun being God unless you could be.

I'm not judging God with human logic. I'm holding him to standards of Human decency.

All powerful does not mean always right.

That is your issue you're holding God up to standards of HUMAN dignity. God is not human, not even remotely. Such a being is so far superior to us that judging him by our standards is a folly.

We can sit around and tear our hair out about why apes and dogs do not meet our standards of human decency as well but no one does because it is assumed and accepted that they are different from us. Somehow this same concept doesn't translate upwards to God.

Actually, if you would read the Bible for about 5 seconds, you'd realize that God "made us in his image".

Plus, humans are selfish and greedy and hypocritical. Apes can be nice in ways that reptiles can't. If the hierarchy is Divine ---> Human ----->Ape, then wouldn't God be the best?

I mean, you're literally comparing your God to an Ape. How low can you go?
"Philosophy is a great conversation that never ends"

Writing for this website ----> www.dailyfreethinker.com
Fido
Posts: 357
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1/11/2015 8:10:09 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/11/2015 5:52:00 PM, phiLockeraptor wrote:
At 1/11/2015 5:08:58 PM, Clovis wrote:
At 1/10/2015 4:34:16 PM, phiLockeraptor wrote:
At 1/10/2015 3:13:08 AM, Fido wrote:
Does anyone get what vanity it is to judge God with Human logic? Like Lincoln saying God could not be for an against the same side. Welwe it wouldn't be much fun being God unless you could be.

I'm not judging God with human logic. I'm holding him to standards of Human decency.

All powerful does not mean always right.

That is your issue you're holding God up to standards of HUMAN dignity. God is not human, not even remotely. Such a being is so far superior to us that judging him by our standards is a folly.

We can sit around and tear our hair out about why apes and dogs do not meet our standards of human decency as well but no one does because it is assumed and accepted that they are different from us. Somehow this same concept doesn't translate upwards to God.

Actually, if you would read the Bible for about 5 seconds, you'd realize that God "made us in his image".

Plus, humans are selfish and greedy and hypocritical. Apes can be nice in ways that reptiles can't. If the hierarchy is Divine ---> Human ----->Ape, then wouldn't God be the best?

I mean, you're literally comparing your God to an Ape. How low can you go?

The greater mankind has become in our knowledge and technology the more distant and Godlike God has become. Noah was supposedly the last man to walk with God, but apparently Abraham bargained like God as if in the market for the lives of people in Sodom and Gomorrah. The tower of babble could reach almost to heaven, and Jacob could reach it with a ladder. Now you could not reach it with a moon shot. It is pointless to say that we were made in the image of God.
Ask after the image of God. Most people will believe it is humanity. What if we were made instead in the imagination of God, and share that quality with God? Then no matter how we reach, we will never touch the face of God, but imagine it no less for that fact.
ReformedPresbyterian72598
Posts: 293
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1/11/2015 10:56:06 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/11/2015 1:11:16 PM, phiLockeraptor wrote:
At 1/10/2015 10:09:13 PM, ReformedPresbyterian72598 wrote:
At 1/10/2015 12:56:44 AM, phiLockeraptor wrote:
I'm going to be blunt and point out three glaring problems with the Christian doctrine of Hell. If you have an answer, please, share it with me.

1. One lifetime of bad behavior means an eternity of punishment. How do you reconcile this grave injustice?

How can it be injustice if it is decreed that to break the law in any way, you are given the punishment it deserves. You break one part of the law, it means you have broken the whole law for it is all woven together, I can show if you wish.

So if I get a speeding ticket I should face life in prison? Your standards for a Perfect being are less severe than your standards for human decency...

Not my standards, God's.

2. Everyone deserves to go to Hell unless they worship God. Then they can commit whatever sin they want and still be "forgiven". How is this fair? How do you worship a being that gives murderers a "Get out of hell free card" for praising his ego, but throws charity-workers in the Pit for not believing? Is this not the condition of a psychopath?

It is if they repent and believe that they will not go to hell. Those whom are saved commit sins, it is by nature we are all sinners. The murderer and the charity giver. God forgives the sins of them that believe because they believe, yes. However, it is not of their own that they do believe, but of His. He works in their heart, therefore they are forgiven.

What about African tribes who grow up and have never heard of him? Are all of those people going to perish, too? Frankly, yes.
How about every human who existed before Jesus. Are they all in Hell? Just what exactly is the point?
You need to look into the whole construction of the Levitical priesthood and their means of worshiping God. It all points straight to Christ. You don't need a name "Jesus" by which to worship God. All of the rights and rituals signified the coming, work, and fulfillment of the Messiah. If they believed in the promise of the Messiah(Christ), they were saved. As to those who were not of Israel, we read of some Gentiles joining the congregation and if they believed, they were saved. As to the others, no.

3. If we're all "sinners", whose fault is that but our maker's? Don't give me the original sin crap, either, because God made Lucifer as well. Plus, couldn't he have just programmed Adam and Eve to have a great fear of the Tree of Knowledge? And why the Hell did he put it within their grasp in the first place?

You are getting into a very deep topic here. It's of the doctrine of predestination, which includes election. There is a book by Gordon H. Clark titled "Predestination" that will help answer this question. But at present I am going to use a source called the Westminster Confession of Faith.

1. All those whom God hath predestinated unto life, and those only, he is pleased, in his appointed and accepted time, effectually to call,a by his Word and Spirit,b out of that state of sin and death, in which they are by nature, to grace and salvation, by Jesus Christ;cenlightening their minds spiritually and savingly to understand the things of God,dtaking away their heart of stone, and giving unto them a heart of flesh;e renewing their wills, and, by his almighty power, determining them to that which is good,f and effectually drawing them to Jesus Christ:g yet so, as they come most freely, being made willing by his grace.h

"Being made willing" is an oxymoron. Why doesn't he just show himself? He's everywhere, right? Why is this response so darn typical amongst your kind? God makes His elect willing by giving them ears to hear and eyes to see: He works through them to make them willing. It's the only way they are willing.

(a) Acts 13:48; Rom 8:28,30; Rom 11:7; Eph 1:5,11; 2 Tim 1:9-10
(b) 2 Thess 2:13-14; Jas 1:18; 2 Cor 3:3,6; 1 Cor 2:12
(c) 2 Tim 1:9-10; 1 Pet 2:9; Rom 8:2; Eph 2:1-10
(d) Acts 26:18; 1 Cor 2:10,12; Eph 1:17-18; 2 Cor 4:6
(e) Ezek 36:26
(f) Ezek 11:19; Deut 30:6; Ezek 36:27; John 3:5; Titus 3:5; 1 Pet 1:23
(g) John 6:44-45; Acts 16:14
(h) Ps 110:3; John 6:37; Matt 11:28; Rev 22:17; Rom 6:16-18; Eph 2:8; Phil 1:29

2. This effectual call is of God's free and special grace alone, not from anything at all foreseen in man,i who is altogether passive therein, until, being quickened and renewed by the Holy Spirit,k he is thereby enabled to answer this call, and to embrace the grace offered and conveyed in it.l

This is literally a whole bunch of nothing. Where is God when the spirit is being offered? Why are there 1000's of different ways to see his grace?
You aren't reading the words.
(i) 2 Tim 1:9; Eph 2:8-9; Rom 9:11
(k) 1 Cor 2:14; Rom 8:7-9; Titus 3:4-5
(l) John 6:37; Ezek 36:27; 1 John 5:1; 1 John 3:9

4. Others, not elected, although they may be called by the ministry of the Word,p and may have some common operations of the Spirit,qyet they never truly come unto Christ, and therefore cannot be saved:r much less can men, not professing the Christian religion, be saved in any other way whatsoever, be they never so diligent to frame their lives according to the light of nature, and the laws of that religion they do profess.s And, to assert and maintain that they may, is very pernicious, and to be detested.t

Let me get this straight. A native american who never hears of Jesus in his life is going to burn in Hell. Where's the justice in that?
Where is the injustice? God makes the rules and defines them not you or I.

(p) Matt 13:14-15; Acts 28:24; Acts 13:48;Matt 22:14
(q) Matt 13:20-21; Matt 7:22; Heb 6:4-5
(r) John 6:37,64-66; John 8:44; John 13:18;John 17:12
(s) Acts 4:12; 1 John 4:2-3; 2 John 9; John 14:6; Eph 2:12-13; John 4:22; John 17:3; Rom 10:13-17
(t) 2 John 9-11; 2Corinthians 16:22; Gal 1:6-8:
I have more issues, but those are the three that popped into my mind. Does anybody want to answer for these grievances? If so, I'm all ears.

Read. I hope it helps somewhat, and I am quite open to discussion.
phiLockeraptor
Posts: 233
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1/11/2015 11:00:23 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/11/2015 10:56:06 PM, ReformedPresbyterian72598 wrote:
At 1/11/2015 1:11:16 PM, phiLockeraptor wrote:
At 1/10/2015 10:09:13 PM, ReformedPresbyterian72598 wrote:
At 1/10/2015 12:56:44 AM, phiLockeraptor wrote:
I'm going to be blunt and point out three glaring problems with the Christian doctrine of Hell. If you have an answer, please, share it with me.

1. One lifetime of bad behavior means an eternity of punishment. How do you reconcile this grave injustice?

How can it be injustice if it is decreed that to break the law in any way, you are given the punishment it deserves. You break one part of the law, it means you have broken the whole law for it is all woven together, I can show if you wish.

So if I get a speeding ticket I should face life in prison? Your standards for a Perfect being are less severe than your standards for human decency...

Not my standards, God's.
Any standard you accept becomes your own. That's like saying "oh no, those aren't my standards, those are Hitlers! I just comply with them, believing in them, and play fealty to them."

At any rate, it really doesn't matter, because the point still stands: God's standards of ethical behavior are more barbaric than his "creations". Doesn't sound so good for an all knowing being.

And aren't we made in his image anyway?

2. Everyone deserves to go to Hell unless they worship God. Then they can commit whatever sin they want and still be "forgiven". How is this fair? How do you worship a being that gives murderers a "Get out of hell free card" for praising his ego, but throws charity-workers in the Pit for not believing? Is this not the condition of a psychopath?

It is if they repent and believe that they will not go to hell. Those whom are saved commit sins, it is by nature we are all sinners. The murderer and the charity giver. God forgives the sins of them that believe because they believe, yes. However, it is not of their own that they do believe, but of His. He works in their heart, therefore they are forgiven.

What about African tribes who grow up and have never heard of him? Are all of those people going to perish, too? Frankly, yes.
How about every human who existed before Jesus. Are they all in Hell? Just what exactly is the point?
You need to look into the whole construction of the Levitical priesthood and their means of worshiping God. It all points straight to Christ. You don't need a name "Jesus" by which to worship God. All of the rights and rituals signified the coming, work, and fulfillment of the Messiah. If they believed in the promise of the Messiah(Christ), they were saved. As to those who were not of Israel, we read of some Gentiles joining the congregation and if they believed, they were saved. As to the others, no.

So a good 80% of people who ever existed were born to Burn. Doesn't exactly sound like a high success rate...

3. If we're all "sinners", whose fault is that but our maker's? Don't give me the original sin crap, either, because God made Lucifer as well. Plus, couldn't he have just programmed Adam and Eve to have a great fear of the Tree of Knowledge? And why the Hell did he put it within their grasp in the first place?

You are getting into a very deep topic here. It's of the doctrine of predestination, which includes election. There is a book by Gordon H. Clark titled "Predestination" that will help answer this question. But at present I am going to use a source called the Westminster Confession of Faith.

1. All those whom God hath predestinated unto life, and those only, he is pleased, in his appointed and accepted time, effectually to call,a by his Word and Spirit,b out of that state of sin and death, in which they are by nature, to grace and salvation, by Jesus Christ;cenlightening their minds spiritually and savingly to understand the things of God,dtaking away their heart of stone, and giving unto them a heart of flesh;e renewing their wills, and, by his almighty power, determining them to that which is good,f and effectually drawing them to Jesus Christ:g yet so, as they come most freely, being made willing by his grace.h

"Being made willing" is an oxymoron. Why doesn't he just show himself? He's everywhere, right? Why is this response so darn typical amongst your kind? God makes His elect willing by giving them ears to hear and eyes to see: He works through them to make them willing. It's the only way they are willing.

(a) Acts 13:48; Rom 8:28,30; Rom 11:7; Eph 1:5,11; 2 Tim 1:9-10
(b) 2 Thess 2:13-14; Jas 1:18; 2 Cor 3:3,6; 1 Cor 2:12
(c) 2 Tim 1:9-10; 1 Pet 2:9; Rom 8:2; Eph 2:1-10
(d) Acts 26:18; 1 Cor 2:10,12; Eph 1:17-18; 2 Cor 4:6
(e) Ezek 36:26
(f) Ezek 11:19; Deut 30:6; Ezek 36:27; John 3:5; Titus 3:5; 1 Pet 1:23
(g) John 6:44-45; Acts 16:14
(h) Ps 110:3; John 6:37; Matt 11:28; Rev 22:17; Rom 6:16-18; Eph 2:8; Phil 1:29

2. This effectual call is of God's free and special grace alone, not from anything at all foreseen in man,i who is altogether passive therein, until, being quickened and renewed by the Holy Spirit,k he is thereby enabled to answer this call, and to embrace the grace offered and conveyed in it.l

This is literally a whole bunch of nothing. Where is God when the spirit is being offered? Why are there 1000's of different ways to see his grace?
You aren't reading the words.
(i) 2 Tim 1:9; Eph 2:8-9; Rom 9:11
(k) 1 Cor 2:14; Rom 8:7-9; Titus 3:4-5
(l) John 6:37; Ezek 36:27; 1 John 5:1; 1 John 3:9

4. Others, not elected, although they may be called by the ministry of the Word,p and may have some common operations of the Spirit,qyet they never truly come unto Christ, and therefore cannot be saved:r much less can men, not professing the Christian religion, be saved in any other way whatsoever, be they never so diligent to frame their lives according to the light of nature, and the laws of that religion they do profess.s And, to assert and maintain that they may, is very pernicious, and to be detested.t

Let me get this straight. A native american who never hears of Jesus in his life is going to burn in Hell. Where's the justice in that?
Where is the injustice? God makes the rules and defines them not you or I.

(p) Matt 13:14-15; Acts 28:24; Acts 13:48;Matt 22:14
(q) Matt 13:20-21; Matt 7:22; Heb 6:4-5
(r) John 6:37,64-66; John 8:44; John 13:18;John 17:12
(s) Acts 4:12; 1 John 4:2-3; 2 John 9; John 14:6; Eph 2:12-13; John 4:22; John 17:3; Rom 10:13-17
(t) 2 John 9-11; 2Corinthians 16:22; Gal 1:6-8:
I have more issues, but those are the three that popped into my mind. Does anybody want to answer for these grievances? If so, I'm all ears.

Read. I hope it helps somewhat, and I am quite open to discussion.
"Philosophy is a great conversation that never ends"

Writing for this website ----> www.dailyfreethinker.com
ReformedPresbyterian72598
Posts: 293
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1/11/2015 11:22:40 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
"Any standard you accept becomes your own. That's like saying "oh no, those aren't my standards, those are Hitlers! I just comply with them, believing in them, and play fealty to them."

Formost, you do not seem to get the idea behind that fact God's standards are His own. I will show you this: If you speed 1. You are endangering life(Thou shalt not murder), 2. You think that you may do so, which shows that you prefer to covet your desires over the safety of others(Thou shalt not covet), 3. You have told yourself its fine to speed and/or when you run into a cop you put the halo around your head behave as such a good person(Thou shalt not bear false witness), 4. You have given yourself the right to speed when it is contrary to law(Thou shalt not steal), 5. You have flipped the bird in the face of the authorities(Honor thy father and mother, which includes elders of any sort), 6. You have committed adultery by not remaining faithful to the law, and instead by abhorring it(Thou shalt not commit adultery, this isn't just physically), 7. You then become your own god(Thou shalt have no other god before Me), 8. The means of worship is, again, you(You shall not make unto thee any graven images), 9. You misuse the God's name in a subtle fashion as you are now God(Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain), and 10. Remember the Sabbath Day to keep it Holy; why bother when you've done all this?

"At any rate, it really doesn't matter, because the point still stands: God's standards of ethical behavior are more barbaric than his "creations". Doesn't sound so good for an all knowing being."

Make more sense now? God's standards are His own. We cannot and will not impose on them. He has given us law, what I have showed you is how we break it.

"And aren't we made in his image anyway?"

Yes, but irrelevant. The image we are created in is that we have a spirit, a true body and soul.
Illegalcombatant
Posts: 4,008
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1/12/2015 1:40:06 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/10/2015 3:13:08 AM, Fido wrote:
Does anyone get what vanity it is to judge God with Human logic? Like Lincoln saying God could not be for an against the same side. Welwe it wouldn't be much fun being God unless you could be.

To bad, people use so called human logic to try and establish all other sorts of religious claims you can't then complain when that same logic is used against various religious preachments.

But that is how some religious people work isn't it ? use reason when they think it is on their side but when it isn't......oh oh oh the Lord is mysterious.
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
Clovis
Posts: 191
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1/12/2015 8:33:32 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/11/2015 5:52:00 PM, phiLockeraptor wrote:
At 1/11/2015 5:08:58 PM, Clovis wrote:
At 1/10/2015 4:34:16 PM, phiLockeraptor wrote:
At 1/10/2015 3:13:08 AM, Fido wrote:
Does anyone get what vanity it is to judge God with Human logic? Like Lincoln saying God could not be for an against the same side. Welwe it wouldn't be much fun being God unless you could be.

I'm not judging God with human logic. I'm holding him to standards of Human decency.

All powerful does not mean always right.

That is your issue you're holding God up to standards of HUMAN dignity. God is not human, not even remotely. Such a being is so far superior to us that judging him by our standards is a folly.

We can sit around and tear our hair out about why apes and dogs do not meet our standards of human decency as well but no one does because it is assumed and accepted that they are different from us. Somehow this same concept doesn't translate upwards to God.

Actually, if you would read the Bible for about 5 seconds, you'd realize that God "made us in his image".

Plus, humans are selfish and greedy and hypocritical. Apes can be nice in ways that reptiles can't. If the hierarchy is Divine ---> Human ----->Ape, then wouldn't God be the best?

I mean, you're literally comparing your God to an Ape. How low can you go?

No you've completely misconstrued what I've said actually.

And making something in image of another is not making it equal...

We're the apes in the example, not God. I sense a lot of anger from you on this topic and I'm not sure why.
Words are wind.

A reader lives a thousand lives before he dies. The man who never reads lives only one.
phiLockeraptor
Posts: 233
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1/12/2015 8:35:05 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/12/2015 8:33:32 AM, Clovis wrote:
At 1/11/2015 5:52:00 PM, phiLockeraptor wrote:
At 1/11/2015 5:08:58 PM, Clovis wrote:
At 1/10/2015 4:34:16 PM, phiLockeraptor wrote:
At 1/10/2015 3:13:08 AM, Fido wrote:
Does anyone get what vanity it is to judge God with Human logic? Like Lincoln saying God could not be for an against the same side. Welwe it wouldn't be much fun being God unless you could be.

I'm not judging God with human logic. I'm holding him to standards of Human decency.

All powerful does not mean always right.

That is your issue you're holding God up to standards of HUMAN dignity. God is not human, not even remotely. Such a being is so far superior to us that judging him by our standards is a folly.

We can sit around and tear our hair out about why apes and dogs do not meet our standards of human decency as well but no one does because it is assumed and accepted that they are different from us. Somehow this same concept doesn't translate upwards to God.

Actually, if you would read the Bible for about 5 seconds, you'd realize that God "made us in his image".

Plus, humans are selfish and greedy and hypocritical. Apes can be nice in ways that reptiles can't. If the hierarchy is Divine ---> Human ----->Ape, then wouldn't God be the best?

I mean, you're literally comparing your God to an Ape. How low can you go?

No you've completely misconstrued what I've said actually.

And making something in image of another is not making it equal...

We're the apes in the example, not God. I sense a lot of anger from you on this topic and I'm not sure why.

The anger is non-existent. You just feel attacked because your belief is part of your identity.

Apes are more barbaric than humans, is the point. They aren't just "different", they're beneath us. We are beneath God. Why should God regress to an Ape, if he is the most perfect being?
"Philosophy is a great conversation that never ends"

Writing for this website ----> www.dailyfreethinker.com
Clovis
Posts: 191
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1/12/2015 8:37:45 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/12/2015 8:35:05 AM, phiLockeraptor wrote:
At 1/12/2015 8:33:32 AM, Clovis wrote:
At 1/11/2015 5:52:00 PM, phiLockeraptor wrote:
At 1/11/2015 5:08:58 PM, Clovis wrote:
At 1/10/2015 4:34:16 PM, phiLockeraptor wrote:
At 1/10/2015 3:13:08 AM, Fido wrote:
Does anyone get what vanity it is to judge God with Human logic? Like Lincoln saying God could not be for an against the same side. Welwe it wouldn't be much fun being God unless you could be.

I'm not judging God with human logic. I'm holding him to standards of Human decency.

All powerful does not mean always right.

That is your issue you're holding God up to standards of HUMAN dignity. God is not human, not even remotely. Such a being is so far superior to us that judging him by our standards is a folly.

We can sit around and tear our hair out about why apes and dogs do not meet our standards of human decency as well but no one does because it is assumed and accepted that they are different from us. Somehow this same concept doesn't translate upwards to God.

Actually, if you would read the Bible for about 5 seconds, you'd realize that God "made us in his image".

Plus, humans are selfish and greedy and hypocritical. Apes can be nice in ways that reptiles can't. If the hierarchy is Divine ---> Human ----->Ape, then wouldn't God be the best?

I mean, you're literally comparing your God to an Ape. How low can you go?

No you've completely misconstrued what I've said actually.

And making something in image of another is not making it equal...

We're the apes in the example, not God. I sense a lot of anger from you on this topic and I'm not sure why.

The anger is non-existent. You just feel attacked because your belief is part of your identity.

Apes are more barbaric than humans, is the point. They aren't just "different", they're beneath us. We are beneath God. Why should God regress to an Ape, if he is the most perfect being?

How can you judge the actions of God with your infinitesimal amount of knowledge? God acts in ways based upon knowing all things. You are not in any position to judge God in any meaningful way. That is my point.
Words are wind.

A reader lives a thousand lives before he dies. The man who never reads lives only one.
phiLockeraptor
Posts: 233
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1/12/2015 8:38:48 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/12/2015 8:37:45 AM, Clovis wrote:
At 1/12/2015 8:35:05 AM, phiLockeraptor wrote:
At 1/12/2015 8:33:32 AM, Clovis wrote:
At 1/11/2015 5:52:00 PM, phiLockeraptor wrote:
At 1/11/2015 5:08:58 PM, Clovis wrote:
At 1/10/2015 4:34:16 PM, phiLockeraptor wrote:
At 1/10/2015 3:13:08 AM, Fido wrote:
Does anyone get what vanity it is to judge God with Human logic? Like Lincoln saying God could not be for an against the same side. Welwe it wouldn't be much fun being God unless you could be.

I'm not judging God with human logic. I'm holding him to standards of Human decency.

All powerful does not mean always right.

That is your issue you're holding God up to standards of HUMAN dignity. God is not human, not even remotely. Such a being is so far superior to us that judging him by our standards is a folly.

We can sit around and tear our hair out about why apes and dogs do not meet our standards of human decency as well but no one does because it is assumed and accepted that they are different from us. Somehow this same concept doesn't translate upwards to God.

Actually, if you would read the Bible for about 5 seconds, you'd realize that God "made us in his image".

Plus, humans are selfish and greedy and hypocritical. Apes can be nice in ways that reptiles can't. If the hierarchy is Divine ---> Human ----->Ape, then wouldn't God be the best?

I mean, you're literally comparing your God to an Ape. How low can you go?

No you've completely misconstrued what I've said actually.

And making something in image of another is not making it equal...

We're the apes in the example, not God. I sense a lot of anger from you on this topic and I'm not sure why.

The anger is non-existent. You just feel attacked because your belief is part of your identity.

Apes are more barbaric than humans, is the point. They aren't just "different", they're beneath us. We are beneath God. Why should God regress to an Ape, if he is the most perfect being?

How can you judge the actions of God with your infinitesimal amount of knowledge? God acts in ways based upon knowing all things. You are not in any position to judge God in any meaningful way. That is my point.

If we cannot judge whether or not God is worthy of worship, then there is no sense in worshiping him.
"Philosophy is a great conversation that never ends"

Writing for this website ----> www.dailyfreethinker.com