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Who has the burden of proof?

YassineB
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2/7/2015 12:10:35 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/6/2015 6:30:15 PM, SitaraMusica wrote:
I think it;s the one making the claim.

- It is.
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Sidewalker
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2/7/2015 12:54:33 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/6/2015 6:30:15 PM, SitaraMusica wrote:
I think it;s the one making the claim.

Prove it.
"It is one of the commonest of mistakes to consider that the limit of our power of perception is also the limit of all there is to perceive." " C. W. Leadbeater
R0b1Billion
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2/7/2015 10:51:56 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Creationists.
Beliefs in a nutshell:
- The Ends never justify the Means.
- Objectivity is secondary to subjectivity.
- The War on Drugs is the worst policy in the U.S.
- Most people worship technology as a religion.
- Computers will never become sentient.
SitaraMusica
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2/7/2015 12:58:43 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/7/2015 12:54:33 AM, Sidewalker wrote:
At 2/6/2015 6:30:15 PM, SitaraMusica wrote:
I think it;s the one making the claim.

Prove it.
It is a generally accepted rule of debate that the one making the claim is the one with the burden of proof.
sadolite
Posts: 8,838
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2/9/2015 3:59:43 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/6/2015 6:30:15 PM, SitaraMusica wrote:
I think it;s the one making the claim.

Actually the burden of proof isn't relevant. The severity of the accusation is all that matters. The more severe the less proof you need. Once you make the accusation, it's out there and people will believe it no matter how much proof to the contrary that is put before them.
It's not your views that divide us, it's what you think my views should be that divides us.

If you think I will give up my rights and forsake social etiquette to make you "FEEL" better you are sadly mistaken

If liberal democrats would just stop shooting people gun violence would drop by 90%
debate_power
Posts: 726
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2/9/2015 4:12:14 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/6/2015 6:30:15 PM, SitaraMusica wrote:
I think it;s the one making the claim.

You don't say?
You can call me Mark if you like.
Such
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2/9/2015 5:17:29 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/6/2015 6:30:15 PM, SitaraMusica wrote:
I think it;s the one making the claim.

It is.
Such
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2/9/2015 5:19:42 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/7/2015 12:54:33 AM, Sidewalker wrote:
At 2/6/2015 6:30:15 PM, SitaraMusica wrote:
I think it;s the one making the claim.

Prove it.

Because, a debate exists partially within the realm of inference -- that which is accepted, and that which is asserted.

Therefore, that which is asserted is what already exists as what is accepted is what is already accepted, and thus stands as the initial argument, and that which is asserted stands as its counterargument, which leads to the delineation of pro and con.
Such
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2/9/2015 5:22:21 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/9/2015 4:12:14 PM, debate_power wrote:
At 2/6/2015 6:30:15 PM, SitaraMusica wrote:
I think it;s the one making the claim.

You don't say?

Don't act as though it's a given, that's unfair -- in formal debate, it's already established, but in conversation and in real life, it is left ambiguous enough that those who are left with the burden of proof are given the opportunity to obfuscate it so that it appears as though a bold assertion can stand in place of a well-supported argument.
DarthVitiosus
Posts: 624
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2/9/2015 5:33:51 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/9/2015 5:22:21 PM, Such wrote:
At 2/9/2015 4:12:14 PM, debate_power wrote:
At 2/6/2015 6:30:15 PM, SitaraMusica wrote:
I think it;s the one making the claim.

You don't say?

Don't act as though it's a given, that's unfair -- in formal debate, it's already established, but in conversation and in real life, it is left ambiguous enough that those who are left with the burden of proof are given the opportunity to obfuscate it so that it appears as though a bold assertion can stand in place of a well-supported argument.

I don't think it is very ambiguous as you make it seem. The trick is to find the purpose of the other person when engaging in conversation. If someone is moving goal posts from my experience they have no interest in someone else's truth or what we perceive to be facts. A lot of people are dishonest and disingenuous in what they intend on when engaging in conversation(this is very notable here at this site as well). They usually just want an accomplice to their rants.
WILL NOT BE REMOVED UNTIL:
#1. I have met 10 people worth discussing with on DDO who are not interested in ideological or romantic visions of the world we all live in.
#2. 10 people admit they have no interest in any one else's opinion other than their own.
#3. 10 people admit they are products of their environment and their ideas derive from said environment rather than doing any serious critical thinking and search for answers themselves.
Such
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2/9/2015 6:27:26 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/9/2015 5:33:51 PM, DarthVitiosus wrote:
At 2/9/2015 5:22:21 PM, Such wrote:
At 2/9/2015 4:12:14 PM, debate_power wrote:
At 2/6/2015 6:30:15 PM, SitaraMusica wrote:
I think it;s the one making the claim.

You don't say?

Don't act as though it's a given, that's unfair -- in formal debate, it's already established, but in conversation and in real life, it is left ambiguous enough that those who are left with the burden of proof are given the opportunity to obfuscate it so that it appears as though a bold assertion can stand in place of a well-supported argument.

I don't think it is very ambiguous as you make it seem. The trick is to find the purpose of the other person when engaging in conversation. If someone is moving goal posts from my experience they have no interest in someone else's truth or what we perceive to be facts. A lot of people are dishonest and disingenuous in what they intend on when engaging in conversation(this is very notable here at this site as well). They usually just want an accomplice to their rants.

Just an accomplice or three. Isn't that the truth.

Further, isn't that the purpose of posting online?

We are all guilty of this. Our ideas, no matter how researched, no matter how passionately we may feel about it -- it rings true, because it is our own, and we posted it. We mulled over it, and some of us even acid tested it against the best of what we know, and posted it in hopes of some sort of validation from those we respect the most.

But, it's that moment in which we receive agreement from those we want it from most that we seek... and, can you blame them? Can you blame us?

As an intellectual, I want to be right. But, as a human, I want to be agreed with. And, sometimes, that confounds. But, the dopamine prevents me from caring.

This is why they say ignorance is bliss. Because, with enough to share in your ignorance, it becomes less travesty and more a search for kindred spirits to validate our ideological embellishments.
Sidewalker
Posts: 3,713
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2/9/2015 8:06:00 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/7/2015 12:58:43 PM, SitaraMusica wrote:
At 2/7/2015 12:54:33 AM, Sidewalker wrote:
At 2/6/2015 6:30:15 PM, SitaraMusica wrote:
I think it;s the one making the claim.

Prove it.
It is a generally accepted rule of debate that the one making the claim is the one with the burden of proof.

You are the one making the claim here, so the burden of proof is on you.

"It is a generally accepted rule" hardly constitutes proof, per your own statement the onus is on you to prove it.
"It is one of the commonest of mistakes to consider that the limit of our power of perception is also the limit of all there is to perceive." " C. W. Leadbeater
DarthVitiosus
Posts: 624
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2/10/2015 4:43:42 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/9/2015 6:27:26 PM, Such wrote:
At 2/9/2015 5:33:51 PM, DarthVitiosus wrote:
At 2/9/2015 5:22:21 PM, Such wrote:
At 2/9/2015 4:12:14 PM, debate_power wrote:
At 2/6/2015 6:30:15 PM, SitaraMusica wrote:
I think it;s the one making the claim.

You don't say?

Don't act as though it's a given, that's unfair -- in formal debate, it's already established, but in conversation and in real life, it is left ambiguous enough that those who are left with the burden of proof are given the opportunity to obfuscate it so that it appears as though a bold assertion can stand in place of a well-supported argument.

I don't think it is very ambiguous as you make it seem. The trick is to find the purpose of the other person when engaging in conversation. If someone is moving goal posts from my experience they have no interest in someone else's truth or what we perceive to be facts. A lot of people are dishonest and disingenuous in what they intend on when engaging in conversation(this is very notable here at this site as well). They usually just want an accomplice to their rants.

Just an accomplice or three. Isn't that the truth.

Further, isn't that the purpose of posting online?

We are all guilty of this. Our ideas, no matter how researched, no matter how passionately we may feel about it -- it rings true, because it is our own, and we posted it. We mulled over it, and some of us even acid tested it against the best of what we know, and posted it in hopes of some sort of validation from those we respect the most.

But, it's that moment in which we receive agreement from those we want it from most that we seek... and, can you blame them? Can you blame us?

As an intellectual, I want to be right. But, as a human, I want to be agreed with. And, sometimes, that confounds. But, the dopamine prevents me from caring.

This is why they say ignorance is bliss. Because, with enough to share in your ignorance, it becomes less travesty and more a search for kindred spirits to validate our ideological embellishments.

I can't say I am guilty of it. That is why I never read sites that are more likely to agree with me. What can I learn from what I already know or understand? That is why I don't have a single opinion on any of the big issues. I can't learn from what I already know or understand. I can only learn from what others know or think they know and understand.

That is why I refrain from giving my opinion on a lot of issues. I take it very seriously when James Harvey Robinson said "Most of our so-called reasoning consists in finding arguments for going on believing as we already do." I think any form of self-masturbation is reprehensible, that is what I see it as. To limit oneself to one's own opinions rather than listening to others is to limit one's resources. I prefer to have as many resources as possible. I can easily say my political views have changed drastically over the course of the last three years due to my own personal change in my quest for knowledge.
WILL NOT BE REMOVED UNTIL:
#1. I have met 10 people worth discussing with on DDO who are not interested in ideological or romantic visions of the world we all live in.
#2. 10 people admit they have no interest in any one else's opinion other than their own.
#3. 10 people admit they are products of their environment and their ideas derive from said environment rather than doing any serious critical thinking and search for answers themselves.
MyDinosaurHands
Posts: 203
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2/10/2015 2:20:19 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/6/2015 6:30:15 PM, SitaraMusica wrote:
I think it;s the one making the claim.

Would depend on the claim though, wouldn't it?
In some situations the BoP would naturally be shared. Like:
Nature (Pro) versus Nurture (Con)

Though I agree, in most circumstances, without agreed upon alterations, the BoP is on the one making the claim.
Guess what I used to type this..

Careful! Don't laugh too hard.
SitaraMusica
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2/10/2015 5:59:02 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/9/2015 8:06:00 PM, Sidewalker wrote:
At 2/7/2015 12:58:43 PM, SitaraMusica wrote:
At 2/7/2015 12:54:33 AM, Sidewalker wrote:
At 2/6/2015 6:30:15 PM, SitaraMusica wrote:
I think it;s the one making the claim.

Prove it.
It is a generally accepted rule of debate that the one making the claim is the one with the burden of proof.

You are the one making the claim here, so the burden of proof is on you.

"It is a generally accepted rule" hardly constitutes proof, per your own statement the onus is on you to prove it.
It is a rule of debate that the one making the claim is the one wiuth the burden of proof.
Fido
Posts: 357
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2/10/2015 6:22:57 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/6/2015 6:30:15 PM, SitaraMusica wrote:
I think it;s the one making the claim.

I think anyone making any sort of claim must have reasonable cause for reaching their conclusion; but the balance of proof should be with those contrary. The reason for this is simple. Much in science and in life rests on insight and the liberal use of imagination. The creative mind can jump to conclusion without any sense of over whelming proof. If one suggest a solution to a problem or a conclusion based upon observable fact, then the opposing view must provide proof against. The theory of evolution is an example. It can be supported by facts, but not proved. It works as an explanation, so the burden of proof rests with those who stand against.
SNP1
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2/11/2015 11:04:57 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/6/2015 6:30:15 PM, SitaraMusica wrote:
I think it;s the one making the claim.

In my view, whichever position has the highest prior probability does not have a BoP. If your position does not have the highest prior probability, then you have a BoP.
#TheApatheticNihilistPartyofAmerica
#WarOnDDO
Wocambs
Posts: 1,505
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2/11/2015 11:55:02 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/6/2015 6:30:15 PM, SitaraMusica wrote:
I think it;s the one making the claim.

The burden of proof is on someone actually proposing that something should be believed, and not on someone saying that there's no reason to believe it.
Dragonfang
Posts: 1,122
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2/12/2015 9:15:10 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/11/2015 11:55:02 PM, Wocambs wrote:
At 2/6/2015 6:30:15 PM, SitaraMusica wrote:
I think it;s the one making the claim.

The burden of proof is on someone actually proposing that something should be believed, and not on someone saying that there's no reason to believe it.

Wouldn't that be the same thing? Asking someone to believe that there is no reason to believe something else.

It is simple: If you have a claim, then you must have rational reasons to believe the claim for your belief to be rational.
SNP1
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2/12/2015 1:36:38 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/12/2015 9:15:10 AM, Dragonfang wrote:
At 2/11/2015 11:55:02 PM, Wocambs wrote:
At 2/6/2015 6:30:15 PM, SitaraMusica wrote:
I think it;s the one making the claim.

The burden of proof is on someone actually proposing that something should be believed, and not on someone saying that there's no reason to believe it.

Wouldn't that be the same thing? Asking someone to believe that there is no reason to believe something else.

It is simple: If you have a claim, then you must have rational reasons to believe the claim for your belief to be rational.

Or, we can go based off my post, whichever position has the highest prior probability does not have a BoP. This is because it is already the most probable answer when there is no evidence.
#TheApatheticNihilistPartyofAmerica
#WarOnDDO
SitaraMusica
Posts: 1,060
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2/12/2015 1:43:41 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/11/2015 11:04:57 AM, SNP1 wrote:
At 2/6/2015 6:30:15 PM, SitaraMusica wrote:
I think it;s the one making the claim.

In my view, whichever position has the highest prior probability does not have a BoP. If your position does not have the highest prior probability, then you have a BoP.

I agree.
SitaraMusica
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2/12/2015 2:00:42 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/11/2015 11:55:02 PM, Wocambs wrote:
At 2/6/2015 6:30:15 PM, SitaraMusica wrote:
I think it;s the one making the claim.

The burden of proof is on someone actually proposing that something should be believed, and not on someone saying that there's no reason to believe it.

Agreed.
Wocambs
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2/12/2015 8:16:54 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/12/2015 9:15:10 AM, Dragonfang wrote:
At 2/11/2015 11:55:02 PM, Wocambs wrote:
At 2/6/2015 6:30:15 PM, SitaraMusica wrote:
I think it;s the one making the claim.

The burden of proof is on someone actually proposing that something should be believed, and not on someone saying that there's no reason to believe it.

Wouldn't that be the same thing? Asking someone to believe that there is no reason to believe something else.

It is simple: If you have a claim, then you must have rational reasons to believe the claim for your belief to be rational.

I was just trying to say that rejecting an empirical hypothesis does not commit you to having to prove its negation.
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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2/13/2015 10:15:40 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/11/2015 11:04:57 AM, SNP1 wrote:
At 2/6/2015 6:30:15 PM, SitaraMusica wrote:
I think it;s the one making the claim.

In my view, whichever position has the highest prior probability does not have a BoP. If your position does not have the highest prior probability, then you have a BoP.

Cool, now give us a way to determine prior probability that isn't largely dependent on the subject.
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SNP1
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2/13/2015 10:28:34 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/13/2015 10:15:40 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 2/11/2015 11:04:57 AM, SNP1 wrote:
At 2/6/2015 6:30:15 PM, SitaraMusica wrote:
I think it;s the one making the claim.

In my view, whichever position has the highest prior probability does not have a BoP. If your position does not have the highest prior probability, then you have a BoP.

Cool, now give us a way to determine prior probability that isn't largely dependent on the subject.

We can try priori arguments (like one of envisage's that I am fond of, and have changed a bit) that shows that it is more likely that entities do not exist then do exist.

A1) It is more likely that an entity exists than not exists.
P1) Entity 1 is more likely to exist than not to exist.
P2) Entity 2 is more likely to exist than not to exist.
P3) Entity 3 is more likely to exist than not to exist.
ad infinitum...
P4) Entity 1 is mutually exclusive to 2, 3, 4, etc.
P5) Entity 2 is mutually exclusive to 1, 3, 4, etc.
ad infinitum...
C1) A1 entails a contradiction.
C2) A1 is false.

A2) It is more likely that an entity does not exist than exists
P1) Entity 1 is more likely not to exist than exist.
P2) Entity 2 is more likely not to exist than exist.
P3) Entity 3 is more likely not to exist than exist.
ad infinitum...
P4) Entity 1 is mutually exclusive to 2, 3, 4, etc.
P5) Entity 2 is mutually exclusive to 1, 3, 4, etc.
ad infinitum...
C1) A2 does not entail a contradiction.
C2) A2 is true.

With a similar argument, I can assume we can show what is more likely when presented with no evidence for certain arguments (without needing to know that actual percent of the probabilities).
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Sidewalker
Posts: 3,713
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2/14/2015 1:37:33 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/10/2015 5:59:02 PM, SitaraMusica wrote:
At 2/9/2015 8:06:00 PM, Sidewalker wrote:
At 2/7/2015 12:58:43 PM, SitaraMusica wrote:
At 2/7/2015 12:54:33 AM, Sidewalker wrote:
At 2/6/2015 6:30:15 PM, SitaraMusica wrote:
I think it;s the one making the claim.

Prove it.
It is a generally accepted rule of debate that the one making the claim is the one with the burden of proof.

You are the one making the claim here, so the burden of proof is on you.

"It is a generally accepted rule" hardly constitutes proof, per your own statement the onus is on you to prove it.
It is a rule of debate that the one making the claim is the one wiuth the burden of proof.

I see, so the fact that it is "generally accepted" that God exists constitutes proof that God exists?

Truth is like a popularity contest, majority rules, that's how proof works?
"It is one of the commonest of mistakes to consider that the limit of our power of perception is also the limit of all there is to perceive." " C. W. Leadbeater
SitaraMusica
Posts: 1,060
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2/14/2015 1:53:09 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/14/2015 1:37:33 PM, Sidewalker wrote:
At 2/10/2015 5:59:02 PM, SitaraMusica wrote:
At 2/9/2015 8:06:00 PM, Sidewalker wrote:
At 2/7/2015 12:58:43 PM, SitaraMusica wrote:
At 2/7/2015 12:54:33 AM, Sidewalker wrote:
At 2/6/2015 6:30:15 PM, SitaraMusica wrote:
I think it;s the one making the claim.

Prove it.
It is a generally accepted rule of debate that the one making the claim is the one with the burden of proof.

You are the one making the claim here, so the burden of proof is on you.

"It is a generally accepted rule" hardly constitutes proof, per your own statement the onus is on you to prove it.
It is a rule of debate that the one making the claim is the one wiuth the burden of proof.

I see, so the fact that it is "generally accepted" that God exists constitutes proof that God exists?

Truth is like a popularity contest, majority rules, that's how proof works?

It is a well established fact that in trhe rule of debate, the burden of proof is on the one making the claim.